The current state of Heroes Ascent and propsed solutions

Im sure i've posted this answer before but well.

Rank 1 on the guild ladder can be achieved in weeks, Rank 9/10/11 in Fame, well some people have taken well over a year to achieve. That may have been a option at the start of the game but its too late now.
I'm sure everyone would be sooooo happy if fame was reset.

Wow you win, these are truely the most worthwhile posts in this topic.
This thread is about the devaluation of PvP not whinging about losing to heros. Heros are easily rolled but it gets kinda boring and unchallenging when you have to do it every match. Especially as they all play the same build... Boring! If I wanted to play PvE against AI I would.
Read the entire thread and come back with something useful please.

Don't be a troll.

I posted several long posts about whole issue in Heroes Ascend subforum. No point in copy - pasting it here.

Anyway, gg Yunas on your post.

Definatly SIGNED bring back player to player vs player.

One problem is is that some unranked people are not good at all, making it so that unranked people who feel that they are good will not want to get together in groups of unranked people. Now lets face it, there will always be noobs in HA, and just because there are unranked people in HA who are not ranked are noob, doesn't mean they all are. It is fairly hard to find unranked groups with people who really know what they are actually doing.

If rank was meaningful I wouldn't be complaining about it. Most people got rank of builds like IWAY or VIMWAY just to be able to play in groups in HA. Therefore, rank 3 has pretty much become the noob group, and unranked has become something lower than noob.

I have trouble getting into groups in HA. I don't consider myself noob at PvP, have around 300k bath faction and I have been in numerous GvG guilds. Yet, I still cannot find groups in HA, especially since I have settled a bit in a PvE guild for a bit. There is a problem and people who have rank themselves just won't admit it. I have noticed the popularity of HA dwindle ever since IWAY remained present, that is honestly the reason I stopped doing it, because Anet did not do something about the fame farmers in it. When 6v6 was enabled I tried to get back in and then found a different problem, heroway. Now I agree heroway is a problem but 6v6 is not. If you want 8v8 play GvG, and if you don't have enough for it, it can't hurt to do 6v6.

Ok like I said in the other post, I am not in a GvG guild, and didn't remain friends with many people in them. Now when they HA they occasionally, and I use that term lightly, invite me along, but normally they will take guildies over me because, well, they are guildies and don't want to feel like they are not allowing a guildy to participate.

I started out PvEing and gradually develeoped PvP skills through starting in RA and then moving on to my guild GvG's. Of course we weren't good because we were all noob at it, but we learned the basics of GvGing. Then I figured out the observe mode exhisted and started watching them, looking at what builds seemed to be popular and getting used to the different ones. I eventually got a job as a cripshot flagrunner in a GvG guild and ran flags for awhile. Eventually I left the guild becaues it was full of idiots, not bad players just bad personalities.

Factions was coming up so I went back to a PvE guild, played through and when I got bored I continued to look for GvG guilds. I found a bunch and got into a rank 111 guild eventually, being let in without rank because a friend of mine explained how I was a good mesmer, and they were lacking good mesmers. Eventually I left that one, forgetting why I left one of their guilds in the first place. They were idiots. During this time I never got much HA done because between GvG I would PvE. Through all that, I still am unable to get in great groups that have potential in HA.

Now finding an unranked group in HA nowadays is completely useless. Most groups get defeated by searing flames hero groups. HA was nice as 6v6 before the heroes came and now it is full of fame farmers again, just like when IWAY was around. Now for HA to be good, the builds should be varied, and if one is overused it should be nerfed. I agree heroes should be taken out because it is PvP not PvE. Take them out of AB also, since AB is also suppose to be a PvP game.

Someone thinks he's better than he really is, i've seen that before....

Hi guys i am new here so please guide me but for the rest i will be nice i thik...

Hi guys i am new here so please guide me but for the rest i will be nice i think...

That suppose to be insulting me?

No fighting in this forum

3 real person minimum - you betcha that's the way to go.

Stop your ego trips. We're old, experienced pvp'ers, high ranked and from top 100 guilds on the ladder. Your posts arent going to impress anyone. You're just making a fool out of you. xoxo

bring back 8 v 8 get heros out!

/signed

Nope, hope you wake up sooner or later.

Heh, no problem. The only thing I ask in return is that if someone does in fact solve the dilemma that you make sure to tell me.

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In short, iA was a tombs guild and they killed tombs. It's more complicated than that of course, but that is the core of the issue.

No, my opponents are quite right to reject this sort of argument. That one group of people were required to endure some sort of hardship is in no way indicative of that another group ought to. For example, just because my great-grandparents were beaten in schools doesn't imply that I should be. Were they to tell me, "It happened to us, get over it." I would be able to quite rightly dismiss that as a valid argument.

************************************************** ********

That is not a problem for my dilemma. All my dilemma does is show that complaints about elitism are foolish or misguided. You are making a separate claim about a division within the ranks of the unranked (pardon the pun). I have no difficulty in accepting this. Either way it does not impact on my argument.

I'm not sure what your objection here is. You are saying that among the unranked there are good players. Granted. You are further saying that these rare people can come to form the rare groups that, "really know what they are actually doing." None of that conflicts with my argument. This would fall under the, "rank is meaningless" fork where the unranked should be able to form groups. Apparently they can according to you, so I fail to see why elitism is an issue. As for the other sorts of players, that falls under the, "rank is meaningful" fork. They are unworthy (or unqualified if you prefer) to have the opportunity to join the better groups.

This paragraph is directly contradictory. On one hand you're trying to say that rank is meaningless, but then you turn around and make the claim that the higher ranked groups are better. If the former is true then the latter cannot be true, and if the latter is true the former cannot be. Which is it?

Of course when people are unable to prove their point further, they start to flame the poster. Why do people find flaming as a way of getting a point through? I will never know.

DIH49 for one thing thanks for not resorting to flaming in your arguement.

Now what I was trying to explain was that through the gimic builds that have been used in the past, rank has become meaningless. Yet, the problem is a lot of people don't see that rank is meaningless and are just looking for the fame emote to get into a group. Yeah, rank 0 groups can be quite good, but I really have only been in one of those while the rest have been made of a good group of player with one or two that screw the whole thing up. I admit I am really frustrated in searching for a pug group rank 0 that everyone knows what they are doing. Other than that I don't know what to say, so you probably win. But a lot of good PvP players have stopped playing tombs because of the rank issue.

That wasnt a flame towards you. I just found funny that you proclaimed yourself "good pvp player" with nothing to prove this statement. Oh well, I guess that doesnt really matter.

The issue about rank is old as the rank itself. Rank inst compleatly worthless. It shows to some degree your experience in Heroes Ascend. Not the overall player skill or abilities, but HA experience. Thats it. All good PVP guilds require you to have some proof of your skill before they will accept you in their ranks. Thas obvious, everyones time is precious, and there really isnt enough of it to test every ted the happy whamo, or self proclaimed "exp monk". Rank system is good measure of your experience in HA in general, while champion title shows your experience in GVG. Therefore its noting wrong with those titles. Of course its obvious that friends and people you know are better that ranked pugs, but when those arent aviable at the moment, we always have this system.

In pvp there are two kind of individuals. Those who try and learn, and become good through error and trial, or those who are too lazy to try, and prefer whining on forums instead. Guess what dear Hand of Death. Rank isnt granted. I was also rank zero noob, but not anymore. Now Im in serious PVP guild in a good alliance. I also dont worry abour rank. You want to know my secret? I can share it with you.

Less crying on forums, more pvp playing and making friends. That works for everyone.

I'm fairly certain many people have suggested starting your own groups, as this gives you control over builds and player quality. Running my own groups was how I managed to get rank 8 before ever joining a tombs guild (while remaining in an all but dead GvG guild).
If rank was meaningless you wouldn't complain about it, yet you are.

Also, I think you're exaggerating things a lot when you say most ranked people got their fame from IWAY. Most high ranked players got there from balanced and holding builds. Granted, there was a brief period when IWAY was a new and accepted build, and most old timers did try it at least a few times, but that was pretty short lived.

Well there you go, you're obviously not interested enough to start your own groups or look for a pvp guild. Sorry to say but you don't seem that interested in tombs at all. I'm sure you'd jump at the chance to join r9+ groups, but with hardly any faction at all and little to no tombs experience, why would they take you?

Like most unranked players, you're only defeating yourself when you choose to go against the grouping mechanics available to you. I'm sorry but it's really nobody's fault that you choose to no form or seek out unranked groups.

In my opinion rank is meaningless, yet in others it isn't which becomes my problem. I have been in many PvP guilds, I know how to find them.

I agree with the fact that a lot of high ranked players did deserve to get their rank, however the lower ranked 3's and some 6's did not. It isn't crying on forums. It is just that you guys don't see it as a problem because you are not in the persons shoes.

And if I am not interested then I wouldn't be agruing for it would I?

Well, the thing is, when you come on the forums and complain about elitism, then all but say that you're better than the unranked groups forming, you don't really accomplish anything but making you're self look hypocritical.


So here's the thing (and I know I've already said this, but...) pvp is a social thing. Standing around HA spamming LFG and QQing isn't going to help you accomplish anything, so take some initiative.

You say you already have a headstart on the other unranked people, which is good, because it should give you the ability to form sucessful groups. So, start forming your own groups, help people who are close to your level get on the same page as you, and add the good players to your friends list. Find out what people are good at and let them play those roles. Pretty soon you will have a list of good players who are willing to come play for you, and probably have friends of friends interested as well. Now, play with these people as often as possible, only taking PUGs when you have to fill a slot, and you should all be ranked pretty soon.

This works, I know because I've been playing with some of the same people since we were rank 0 and 3.

I don't, as a rule, ever flame.

Nah, if that were true you wouldn't be trying to enter ranked groups. But you said people were in fact trying this. It doesn't add up.

This is a fairly important point. Meaning, for this sort of value, exists insofar as people believe it exists. What this means is that if people see rank as meaningful then it IS meaningful.

Hm, I'm not too sure I'm willing to accept this statement. I'd believe that rank issues on top of the serious HA specific issues may have caused people to leave, but not rank issues alone.

QFT

B Ephekt just laid out precisely what the newbies need to do. When experienced PvPers talk about how they had to go through the same troubles when they first started, the above is what they're talking about. When the pro-Hero camp here screams about "elitism!!!" the above is what they don't understand. When people think HA is all about ego trips, the above is what they haven't experienced or even attempted. If someone says HA is too exclusive (or exclusive at all), that is only because that person has no idea how to network, or doesn't even want to try, simply because they can't see through the LFG EXP MONK R6+++ spam...and it is spam. I guarantee that the players that spam that crap aren't worth jackshit. Only once in a blue moon will you find solid, dependable players from that.

To your first post, why does it have to be PvErs VS PvPers, whats the deal? When all the farmers whined about the AI nerfs and stuff, did I go /notsigned there petitions to bring back old AI and then be like "learn to adapt like us pvpers, bitches". No, I didn't. I don't think many PvPers did either (can't speak for all of em, but whatever...).

Anyways on the post I quoted, I'm assuming you're more of a pve-oriented player, yes? (Hence you're having fun fighting bots). Well theres nothing wrong with that. But you have three whole continents of PvE, why do you need to come PvE in HA, a previously PvP mode... some of us like PvE, some of us like PvP (and why do the two groups of people need to hate each other? they don't...). HA is a pvp area, keep it that way...

Finally, read the post. Yes, there are a few pissy complainers who complain about heroway because they lost to it (this is the same people who complain about IWAY, vimway, b-spike, etc...) but majority of us complain because we don't have fun owning AI...

P.S - Calling people bitches every other sentence isn't the best way to get yourself taken seriously...

When you get that good group, you friends list the players in that team. Be social and make sure they know your adding them, so they add you to. What do you know, you'll get invited to these good player's teams and you can form your own team with these players. There you go, rank problem is out of the way, you've got a group of friends to play with. Friends groups will always be better than pugs. R0 friend team > r9+ pug. Seen the r0 friends team beat r9+ pug so many times...

what anet is trying to do is shorten our party to look for a party. now we can play with 2 ppl instead of 8. so we can join in the action faster you guys dont have problem in pvp in countrystrike.. you shouldn't ahve problem here either..

So? If it was good far the game. And I'm not talking about a season, but a one time reset, to stop the inflation. People who are good, shouldn't care about fame anyway, people who suck but ebayed/iwayd/Sf'ed their fame will cry indeed, let them, they are just pathetic.

/signed on this one, I agree with OP about half team must be human.

Back when I got from r0 to r2, I was in a strictly PvP guild. A couple of my friends worked hard to get me in even though I had almost no GvG experience and little HA experience. Still, from playing Shock/Axe in the HA teams, I watched my team's monks and eventually learned how to monk myself. I was constantly looking over my shoulder to make sure I would never give anyone an excuse to kick me. Each mistake I made, each skill bar error, I always answered with "k I'll fix it" so that I could stay in the guild. It worked, and eventually I was about 100 fame to r3 before the guild broke up. I finished getting to r3 on the double fame weekend.

What disgusts me is all the people running around with Heroes, grabbing fame easily, while the older players had to work hard for it. I'm not against PvE'ers with rank (I'm one) but after watching heroway steamroll nearly everything, I don't think Heroes should be allowed in HA. Maybe they took "Hero's Ascent" too literally, eh?

I think that none of these fame faming heroway-ers ever had to do all they can to stay in a GvG guild that would kick them on a whim. Fame means next to nothing now. All of the players who gained their ranks before the addition of Heroes have gotten seriously ripped off. Still, the other side of me thinks it's good that unranked people now can get fame without guilds, friends, or rank.

Call me a "PvE noob intruding into PvP" if you will, but there's no unwritten law stating that I have to stay in PvE always and never touch high-end PvP. Or call me a "PvP r3 elitist" if you want. Know that the only things I am against are heroes in HA, they're ruining it, and people who think they're "uber l337" because they can beat you with it.

If the fame was reset without Heroes being removed from HA, there would just be a ton of really, really upset rank 9+. Even though I wouldn't really support a fame reset, it would be a good idea to remove Heroes from HA first.

There needs to be something like divisions (like what some other guy said, but I don't remember his name) so that the unranked people will fight other unranks.

People say a guild group always beats a pug... no, not always true, once my friend and I got together a random team and beat a guild ranked 90 or so a long time ago. But that's not very important...

My one and three-quarters cents. Enjoy.

It wouldnt be good for the game. People who wanted to make teams wouldnt look any further than their friends lists to find people for teams, no one with any sense would take a pug they didnt know (thats if they even stayed in the game at all). There would be lots of very close clicks and random newbies still wouldnt get a look in. Within 2 weeks the ones who had rank would have deers and wolves and unranked people would still be whining they cant find teams.
You think all the people with ranks 12 and 13 want all their months and I means lots of months of playing wiped out? I spent lots of long and hard nites getting my rank and I dont want to do it all over again. Im interested to know how much fame you have Hyro.

Rank is not what stops people finding teams to play in. People being lazy and not willing to put an effort into the game is the problem. Everyone moans about not being able to find teams but they arent willing to bite the bullet and make their own teams. Unranked players need to take the bull by the horns and start fighting back, go on observer and find a build and get teams together.
No one in this game started out at Rank 3, the ones with high rank got off their asses and did something about it.
If you want to have any success in HA you have to devote your entire game to it, leave your pve guilds and start over. And playing with heros is not the answer.

(Edit: in fact I dont like how some people have champion title and wont let me in their guilds, lets wipe those out too. And some people have capped more skills than me and have titles I dont, I feel left out QQ, wipe those please. If you wipe one title in the game you have to wipe them all to uphold the balance of GW.)

Easy solution, don't remove fame, just make it so that you can't emote or show the title in HA. Looking at lykan's join date: may 2005. Which means he probably started playing right at the beginning. Obviously he had no problem with getting his rank, there isn't even any real rank discrimination at that time. I was playing at that time too and it was a breeze in the park because most of the people are lower than R3 anyways.

rofl...

@Lykan

Ok true, i don't have all that much fame :P
Anyway, when you look at the game, wouldn't you say that the heroway+SF madness has caused a huge rank inflation? I see less r3+ PuG's than unranked.

Now I'll just be assuming that this sudden spike of fame has been caused by heroway+SF, so that's a lot of unexperienced players having r6+ or something like that. Now count up all the fame gained by Iway, and Ebay, and you'll get an idea of how much 'undeserved' fame there is.

And yes a lot of people whine about not getting into groups, and I don't balme them, it is hard, while these people don't have to be unskilled.

Now to straighten things up, why not make everyone equal, instead of reward playing/farming time?

As you said, after 2 moths, good players will get their fame again, and bad players won't. It's simply a way to reset rank inflation.

But offcourse this is coming from a r2, 150 fame guy, so that might have something to do with it :P

"Rank inflation" doesn't matter one bit. Anet didn't deem it necessary to reset fame after some people got thousands and thousands of fame from AFKing on an alter during the spirit spam days. It would be pointless to reset it now.

With heroway/SF, you're talking about people getting maybe a couple hundred to 1k fame. Who cares?