The current state of Heroes Ascent and propsed solutions

About your dilemma: when rank is meaningless, as you said, there would be no "desire" to enter a ranked group. But when rank is meaningful, there should be no "opportunity" to enter such ranked group, not "desire", because people would still want prestige, not that they'll all have opportunity to get it. Not everyone can get into Harvard, but with a good comminity college system in place, every tax payer is entitled to higher education suitable to his/her level of readiness. So the legitimate owners of NF are like the tax-paying public, and GW's HA is the education, which reward a good player with fame/rank which is analogous to diploma. In public college admission system, accessiblity is based on academic readiness of students, whereas in elite private schools, having an alumni in the family becomes a plus. So there's a good analogy to draw there. But the "key" is all have the same right (price of the game) to play in every aspect this game has to offer including HA. Whatever they encounter in HA, ai or humans, is more of quality issue than the basic right they earn with purchase. So for an elite system to be kept, like private schools, participants probably have to pay more (monthly charge anyone??) to keep that portion pure and away from rest of the public.

So the balance is between opportunity and desire, with former represented by ability to participate, and latter by fame/rank grouping. Heroes give every NF owner the same chance to play in HA. Fame/rank give them the desire or motivation to play. So this "accessibility" and "desire" are two different things, which unfortunately also mutually restricting each other. From Anet's perspective, expanding accessiblity is important, because they need revenues from new owners who have as much right to play in HA as older player, since they paid the same price for the game, as there's no monthly fee to justify the right of older players over new ones. I also must say that to win in GW's pvp does require highly cohesive groups of players, so there's definitely commanding aspect to it. Because skills are limited to 8, tactical flexibility is very restricted and that puts more emphasis on group cohesion and mutual support. With all that being said, removing heroes from HA is not a good solution, but I agree with the idea of limiting a hero per player so to give HA/GVG a more pvp feel as I've suggested in other threads, it's more of a balance between keeping accessiblity without hurting too much quality.

I have to say, even as a newcomer to HA, that I do agree with all the different points that you have mentionned.

However, you may want to consider the HA problem in a different way... As I see it, a lot of fame farmers have taken the fun out of HA. However 90% of those players are more likely to fail miserably in the very first stages of HA, thus making a few fame per run... But repeated x1000 times they'll eventually get their bambis...

Now, what will happen if you totally remove fame points from the *early* stages of HA ?

In my opinion :

- loosy fame farmers will start wondering "what's the point in playing that way if I can't even earn a single fame point", and (a) they will eventually go back to PvE or (b) they will start looking for more serious PvP way to play (real players groups).

- good players deserve good ranking, and so they will, because you will still be able to get fame from the later stages of HA.


I guess in this system everyone's happy and I also do agree that heroes do not have their place in HA... at all.

do whatever u want... HA is going to hell anyway

Just reading this thread affirms this... People valuing (sp?) fame over fun was never so much of an issue, but at least we were still fighting humans back then.

Call me an elitist, but if you put me up vs some random person who's NEVER played in HA before and brings junk builds that won't work like oh troll ungent on rangers or something or wammo with HH, who's more likely to win? Now if you put my flist full of r9++ friends vs a group of those guys, who's more likely to win?

Here's a sad fact for you that most of the "beginners" don't understand. WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU AT THIS, SIMPLY BECAUSE WE ARE MORE EXPERIENCED.

No it absolutely does not mean you CANNOT be as good at this as we are if you are willing to put in the time/effort, but the problem with nubs is that they don't realize they are nubs, they think they know it all and refuse to learn.

HA is a Meritocracy not a DEMOCRACY, all of these self-entitled nubs who think they automatically deserve to enter r9++ groups then call "ELITISM" needs a reality check. It's like expecting to goto harvard or be CEO of a company without putting in any friggin effort. Imagine what the world would be like if everyone expects to get into every "TOP" school, job or whatever without having to put in any effort then complain about ELITISM when you don't get it.

Hell, imagine this senario, what if you need a surgical procedure done and instead of getting the best and most experienced doctor you got some kid who's still in medical school (since it'd be ELITISM to choose the more experienced doctor over him).

I remember when I was unranked, took my 3 hours to form a group that would lose first round and most of the time the entire team would rage quit, then it was another 3 hours to reform the group. You know what? It was worth it. I've met people during those times, made friends with those who didn't rage quit and stuck it through, and now we are all r9++. Why can't you do the same instead of QQing all day about elitism?

cheers for throwing it out into the open, and in all fairness i couldnt agree more. Expect some funny replies...

So you're saying newbies cannot play hoh without heroes? that is just sad. After they get their rank3 or rank 6, what they going to do? keep playing with heroes? because if there are group that takes them, they will suck. I played with some ranked pug last night, rank3-4, they just plain SUCk. No strategy, no tactics, just ball up and die, and no resing either. WHY? Cause the damm heroes do the job for them. So newbies can never learn to play with human, they will always be noob and losing the experience they get in REAL pvp which they PAID for.

/signed

Although free fame is nice, and rolling the all those Protectors and Explorers is fun (for a while). I don't like fighting the AI. There is a place to fight against the AI over and over again. It's called PvE, and ofcourse they have the hero battles.

I tend to agree with the OP. I'm mostly a PVE'er, but I think people who enjoy playing against other people should have places where they can do that. And if a place has always been PVP, seems unfair to change it.

I know I'd be upset if all of a sudden I had to play against human opponents to complete missions and quests.

(And yes, I want the damn UW and FoW that I paid for (and Urgoz and the Deep too) to be accessable though my PVE achievements. But that is a different thread.)

I would go even further and say 2 or 1 as Ha is about PvP but that all changed when Iway came along.

/finally signed

/signed

PvP is Players versus Players, not players versus some guy's AI bots...Without PvP Guild Wars is going to be nothing more than an online roleplaying game.....the consoles have enough of them....

for all you guys who love and value elitism so much, uninstall game, give me your account and carry on with real life, where elitism is king.

elitism in a game is for the weak.

You're drawing from a claim I did not make here. I never once expressed that any given person couldn't play in HA. The dilemma deals solely with the expresission of anger over elitism. It proves merely that such anger is either foolish (predicated on irrational notions) or misplaced (applied to fully justified systems). It does not follow from the dilemma that the unranked should not be allowed to use HA, merely that they should not expect to enter ranked groups (assuming rank matters).

They already had the same chance. Every person had an equal chance to join unranked groups when they were unranked. In the same way that, drawing on your analogy, everyone could attend community college when they were undergrads. That some people happen to have harvard law degrees is irrelevant.

My argument is that heroes inherently devalue PvP by directly contradicting its primary purpose and obligation. There is no function in which a teammate can be replaced with an AI and be in accordance with the definition of PvP. PvP necessitates people playing. AI per definition are not people, and so there is logical contradiction.

/signed

I'll quote the tons of people who have said it "It's PvP not Hero vs. Hero"

These people can fine and dandy go down to hero battles and have the time of their life!

Also for those people who are arguing that they can't pug and participate in HA. The proposal here isn't to fully eliminate all Heros in HA. It's to limit it down to 3 real life people + 3 Heros/Henches.

Heroes have no place in Heroes' Ascent... :/
I just wanted to say that to see how it looks.

Taking fame out of the earlier matches (only allowing fame in the "upper levels") would cut down all the hero groups, since most of them get rolled before they get to dark chambers anyway. Heroes just can't run relics. Since 99% of the HA population already has rank, this would make a lot of people quit.

Why not wipe the old fame system and completely redo it? All the people who are already high ranked will play with people they know and who know them, and the newer HA players will be able to gain fame without all the farming builds getting in their way. I have wanted a rank reset for a very very long time now, since 99.999999% of players got their rank with a gimmick build like iway, heroway, spike (arguably), or spirit spamming. Theplayer base is double what it was a year ago. Those new players missed all the godo chances to get fame, since all the "broken" or "overpowered" builds have been nerfed.

Back to the main topic. Heroes have no place in HA. Like everyone keeps saying, it's PvP, not AIvAI.

/signed to the max

i don't even do ha (heck, the most likely way for me to do ha would be heroway, whcih i refuse to do for obvious reasons), but it's a worldwide pvp tournament, and people want what anet says they're giving: a pvp tournament, where groups of people compete to see who's the best. not to see who can farm fame the fastest, or who has the best skill bar for their heros, but to see who's able to beat everybody else and be on top for a little while.

anet needs a better way of getting people involved in ha/6v6/pvp than by ruining the experience for the people who play it now. 6v6 arenas would be nice, although only if they are non-random, because this would probably reduce the elitism (it's not for rank, not an actual tournament, just a battle arena) and would allow people to learn 6v6 fighting.

/Signed

Either remove HA or remove the AI heroes.

AI belongs elsewhere.

[offtopic]
I like this idea. And if this is implemented ANet should modify the fame system. If the HA community is going to use fame as a skill measurement system, ANet should design it as such. A possible modification would be to only award fame once you win consecutive matches equal to your rank/2 or you win HoH. For example, if your rank is less than 3 you're awarded fame for every win. If you're rank 4 or 5, you're not awarded fame until you've won a second consecutive match (or HoH). Rank 8 or 9, isn't awarded fame until the 4th consecutive win (or HoH).
[/offtopic]

As to the original suggestion, I don't think it solves what ANet perceived to be a problem. HA was not "new/casual player friendly" enough. A requirement of multi-hour group formation followed by 1-2 min of play is not acceptable. I think the closest possible solution is a matching system (similar to GvG) so players of relatively equal skill are pitted against each other. It might not solve group formation but hopefully it won't lead to 1-2 min matches.

http://ladder.guildwars.com




HA/Tombs is all about who can farm fame the fastest. why? coz there is rank and fame to farm, thats why.

I feel compelled to loosely quote Forrest Gump:

"Are you trolling, or just plain stupid?"

/Signed if you want to play games with heroes...go to the hero arena, thats what its for, HA/HoH has always been about fighting other people

I've been playing HA more and it seems that Searing Flames is the next VIM-IWAY. And there's the use of Heros, and I'm seeing now how it can bite. I'm not saying do away with heroes still. But to be effective, I'd have to level my heros up, figure out the right builds, and spend money on runes and weapons for them. Even if I use a new PvP character and unlock the heroes I want, it's still a LOT of preparation work when it could be nerfed by the time I get it effective. I'd like to see other options be effective and balanced, like just going in with my character with a team. Right now it seems to be Heroway, Searing Flames, or a combination of both. I'm not complaining about losing to them. I'm just not interesting in doing it that way. I tend to want to do something not many others are doing. I guess seeing a LOT of people doing it Heroway or SF is actually the reason why I'd rather compete in some other way. Sort of like if everyone is wearing black armor, I'd probably wear white. But in this case, I'd want other builds to still be effective in HA.

But I'm still all for opening doors for new gamers to HA. If I was on Guild Wars doing PvP a lot, and I mean a lot, and was really really good at HA and PvP, I'd be in Team Arenas trying to get people the wins they need to get to HA. Yes, I'd flood HA with as many new gamers as I possibly can. If there are more and more new gamer teams forming and competing, hopefully there will be more matches that happen to put them against each other and they can have fun in HA. If there were likeminded gamers, I'd make a guild for that purpose. But I'm cutting down on my GW playtime. I'm just capping elites and doing HA for now.

/Signed.

Heroes was meant for humans. Theres a limit to where AI can go. im all fine as long as a 50% thing is implemented.

tbh i am trolling.

am i the only one with populist views? come on guys.

a fame reset will not help any newbies. Like you said, high rank players will play with friends. Rank means experience in hoh. Those newbies will not get into any good groups because they have no experience, no friends and no rank. I tell you what, rank, experiences, and friends in hoh come together. My advice to anyone in hoh: please do not even think about get into a pug that's significantly higher rank than you. You don't deserve it. You're supposed to be playing with people aroudn your level. It's not elitism. You will have more fun playing with people around your experience level than trying to play with higher rank people and get kicked/abused/yell at.

all you gotta do is change HA back to 8vs8 so that people don't bring in heroes, because whoever thought 6vs6 was going to be a good idea, got it very wrong

ok ok, enuff crap has been said. Heroes are fine. But it should be 50/50 at the max. And come on guys, some of the posts in this thread are really anti-low rank people. Everyone should be able to have fun in HA. And with 3 r0-r3 people and 3 heroes it should be easy to get to r3+.

So I say, keep heroes in HA but let be 50/50 (3 players and 3 heroes the most)

BTW 8vs8 was better than 6vs6, more tacs back then ^^

why low rank people have no fun? Do they need to play with high rank people to have fun? do they need to get into high rank groups to have fun? I can assure you that they will not have any fun if some high rank guy take them.

Why does it seem acceptable to call new gamers "newbies"? It's like a derrogatory N word that people can now get by with using.

newbies=rookies=perfectly fine, I was once a newbie

It's NOOB that's not acceptable. Newbie=inexperience, noob=whatever dirty you want to say about newbies

I'm not saying the word "newbie" is as bad as some words used in real life and I didn't mean it that way. Anyways, I just call them new gamers.

"New Gamers" is too long and cumbersome for every day usage. Newbs (or any derivation thereof) is shorter, expresses the same meaning, and is generally more useful.

/Signed

I've played with hero's alot and all in all its destroyed the entire gw experiance for me.

pvp and pve.

Elitism in the air, cant you just smell it in here like a foul odour.

Long in the past have some told 'lesser' players to : "ALT F4 uninstall kthxbai" or other things like : "GG Maybe GW isnt the game for you numbnuts."

perhaps there is a shift in the recent changes towards this end for a different group now.

/unsigned.

lol.

/puts flame boots on
Define elitism and how it affects your guildwars experience? What is wrong with some people having more experience in HA than others and wanting to play with those at their experience level. You will hear more people saying "ALT F4 uninstall" in alliance battles than HA. Everyone started off unranked, and everyone got flamed. They still played and had fun without ever needing heroes.
What an anti-social bunch you are. Playing with other people is the basis of guildwars PvP, and if you want to PvP without playing with people, then you sir are an idiot.

And before some1 gets cocky and tries to roflpwn me by quoting one of my other posts where I say that rank is a poor measure of skill, and then say that i am contradicting myself, plz remember that i said "more experienced in HA".

Since you asked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism

And i am the idiot? In your own words: roflpwn

And how is it ruining your ingame experience?
I mean i was called a noob too, that doesnt mean im gonna start playing with AI in a PvP area. I find tremendously stupid how you justify your claim to heroes because elitism is "ruining their game", and that i why i think you are an idiot.
People are mean to me in PvP, therefore I am going to play PvP with AI.

You think all the trash talking is bad now? wait until you start winning halls and people start knowing you. You will be called way worse than a noob and are guaranteed to be ganked on every map with more than two teams on it. That is descrimination yet I live with it and keep playing. I don't complain about others calling me a noob and want to play in an AI environment.

Btw how the hell is copy pasting a definition from wiki roflpwnage?

Well i am sorry you had to go through all that, but do you think feel that is the way how everyone should experience PvP? And how is that going to encourage players to give PvP a go in the first place, if they cant even find a group to play with in the absence of Heros. Until the AI starts making the Heros throw insults around, i wont vote to exclude them from HA as they encourage more players to experience HA PvP as quoted from Galie Chat.

And despite of what you and I think, the game dont just sell themselves unless it can appeal to a wider range of gamers and not just a select bunch of snobs. Unless you like to become a major shareholder and make an executive decision against this then either learn to live with this or perhaps look elsewhere.

Because you are too lazy to look it up yourself.

Granted it is hard to get started, but WE ALL DID IT! This might make it more accessible to others, but have you been to HA since heroes were allowed in PvP. Have you noticed that there are only 2 international districts, as opposed to the usual 4 or 5 before heroes. Are you aware that less people are playing HA, even though it is more accessible to others.
Playing HA was always possible no matter what rank you are, therefore being accessible to all players. If you couldnt find a real party, it is totally your fault, not the "elitist".
Something you can relate to... Let's say you only have a PvE warrior, but you want to solo smites and get loads of ectos. To do this you must create a necro or a monk. Now you have to create a necro, do pre-sear, play through the game and unlock necesary skills, buy armor/runes/weapons, ect... This takes time.
You can't just auto-create a character, map to ToA, and solo smites.

Look point is, HA is PvP and i think it is stupid that AI is everywhere because it makes the game more accessible to newer players (who are less than the older players). I can assure you that there are a lot of players that got started without heroes. They were attracted to the PvP aspect of the game because it was player vs. player. Now these people arent playing HA anymore because it is AI vs AI. Slap in the face imo.