I would just like to remind you about Hero's

I tried for 30 minutes the other night to get in a pug for Consulate Docks. Ranger at level 20. No takers. Did it again later in the night with the same result.

The reason is simple if you stop to think about it. They are new.Period

I hope that once the novelty of them wears off those that pugged will pug more. Those that find them "better" than a pug won't and they can stay using them.

I think that alot of the people using heroes are Tyrian and Canthan players that enjoy the new options that heroes give. You have to admit, it is nice to be able to control an npc at the level you can with heroes.

Most likely, once the novelty wears off, people will go back to the way things were -e.g. hench (or hero) the easy quests and missions and use pugs or guildies for the harder ones.

Not period, but i think you've got a point, and i hope you're right.

It actually matters less to me because i don't intend to complete the game with many characters, so while i only plan on playing elite areas i probably/hopefully wont ever encounter the henching-elite.

I hope they introduce things to actually make cooperative gameplay most desirable, more XP and higher drops for example.

right, another elite area *player*

note that after only a few months of the first GW people were already saying they were sick of pug jerks spoiling the fun.

factions tried to force cooperative play and failed in my opinion.

note that heroes are not being accepted grudgingly as in i have to have one but ............

heroes are being welcomed with open arms as in i can finally get rid of the penis on the minimap rage quit spoil it if you all dont give me 5k now croud.

ecpect ENHANCEMENTS to heroes in updates as their (Anet) logs seem to be shouting this is what most of the players want.

@Nemon:

People hero-hench instead of normal henching because heroes are better than henchmen. I'm surprised you even have to ask this question, because the answer is painfully obvious.

The fact of the matter is that anybody who *wanted* to PuG would still be doing it. The people who used to PuG and now switched to hero-henching are the people who never wanted to PuG in the first place, but didn't feel that henchmen were adequate for the job. The game helps these people by allowing them more options.

Heroes and henchmen *shouldn't* be better than PuGs, but they *are*, and that is the sad part about this entire story. People wouldn't have any reason to hench if they thought a PuG could do better. But experience has shown that henchmen will get a job done much faster and with much less drama than a PuG.

You talk about people screwing up like it's no big deal, but if it happens enough there's just no reason to stay in the party.

You state it like it were the *only* reason ppl hero hench, there are a few good reasons to hero-hench, _and_ there is the detrimental reason, because they feel they need to. Like i've already explained, i'm an avid PuGer, i enjoy the joking around and cooperative play, but even i when faced with all the mass of henching players thought "hey, do they know something about heros i dont??? I guess i _must_ level them", sucks for me because i hate bots. So i reluctantly spent time leveling bots when i didnt want to. I feel this mindset had snowballed and because of it everyone is henching. I dont think everyone who is henching now *wants* to hench atall, i think a large percentage dont want to hench but feel they have no choice, atleast on the first half of the game.

You realise ofcourse that a CPU controled player be written with almost perfect game logic, and the bots would be better than any living gamer. A bot being better than a real player is not sad atall, what _is_ sad is people would rather play with a bot than a real flesh and blood player who you could experiance and enjoy the game with.

I would just like to remind you about Heroes...

Mondays on NBC!
Hehehehe

But seriously, Heroes in NF are great, they give a whole new level of flexibility to the game.

Yes this is supposed to be a psuedo MMO, but everyone knew going in that in an instanced world the experience will be different than any other MMO!

I bought this game because of that difference!

I enjoy Guild play, PUG Play, Hench play, and now Hero play! I have my choice of playmates! Two classes of real people and two classes of AIs...and what could be better than freedom of choice?!

If you dont like Heroes, dont use them.
If you dont like PUGs dont play with em!
Personally, I do a little of each depending on mood! Imagine, a game so flexible it can accomodate my most introverted antisocial mood, as well as allowing me to be an extroverted social butterfly when the mood strikes me!

We have a generally great community here, you only have to read the scribe to understand that!

you just dont get what most hero lovers are saying or you have skipped over the thousands (?) of anti pug posts (those not deleted) saying that they hate/dispise/etc the having to try 20 times to find a decent group .

Anet has the logs of how people PLAY the game and not how loud a few can complain on a forum.

notice how few anti hero posts there are and even less anti hero threads?

regardless of what you want heroes are a very welcome addition and not the community disaster you think it is.

people are CHOOSING a hero (happily) because they have been burned so many times by the jerks in pugs

pugs are a disappearing breed

i've explored almost 50% of elona now, lots of little towns and such, and mostly it's just areas where people stand around w/ the number 4 or 8 above their heads. Occasionally trying to spam their greens, golds or whatever. And the sad pitiful cry of someone else going "lfg mission" to the echoes of silence. I have yet to reach the end game, but I was unable to find a single pug for any of the missions so far. Much less questing... I don't think I saw more than 2 or 3 times thru the entire game so far someone looking to group up for quests..

It's sad, me being a pug monk and all. I pugged thru prophecies (although I used henches a lot more for my first character, not knowing what all the lfg/etc acronyms meant), and I pugged thru factions.

And now NF seems to be a single player game. Set up your heroes, grab your henchies, and off you go. There's no more jerks in town.. but then there isn't much of anything anymore in town either.

As more and more players go thru the game w/ the mindset that there's no one looking for pugs or that it's virtually impossible to find one (ever try waiting to find one? it takes 5 to 10 times longer almost now), there will be fewer and fewer people who will even bother.

I used to pug all the time, but it's not even worth the trouble and wait anymore.

But what's worse teaming up w/ a bad pug? a player whose monk hero is 10x worse than mhenlo.. wow, there's a lot of them out there.

That made me laugh IRL. Probably because it's so true.

Shortly after NF was released, I actually tried to PUG a few times in Prophecies from Iron Mines on. The outcome was always the same. Either I couldn't find a group (I'm online when all of the monks are sleeping) or we would wipe on stupid stuff and people would just leave.

What did I do? Hero-henched to Hell's Precipice, capped my skills and haven't been back since.

I've read every single reply since i started contributing to this topic, i've considered everyones POV, _and_ respected it no matter how it had been shoved in my face.

I know there are _many_ gamers who are now henching because they want that, but what you're not understanding is there is a sizable percentage of players who are now henching instead of PuGing for reasons other than because they _want_ to.

If a player hated PuGs so much they would've been henching in all chapters of the game(as suggested by someone else), and there would be little to no different between Factions, Prophecies and Nightfall, but clearly there is, and i dont think all that can be attributed to the absolute awesomeness of heroes.

There have been more than a few players here saying how they've gone looking for a PuG and not been able to get one even when they would otherwise be a very desirable party member being lvl20 in a low level mission area. The first half of the game is now single player, and only when everyone has their hench leveled do they start PuGing again. This to me indicatates that not all players are henching just because they love it. If they all loved henching then you would see the same problems getting a PuG in later missions as you do early, but you dont.

I hope like someone else said; Heroes are just something new and ppl are all playing them because of this. Perhaps in a couple of month the novelty will have worn off and they will start playing like they used to. I still however feel there is in game encouragement to hench and this is a bad thing for any multiplayer game. Chapter 4, if there is enough players to support it should be offline if the trend continues.

If that's true, all you need to do is yell LFG in town and that large percentage of reluctant players should drop their heroes and join you. Heck, they would be yelling LFG themselves.

Since that doesn't seem to be happening (or this thread wouldn't exist)... might it be possible that a large percentage of people take heroes because they actually want to?

(Heroes) Oooh! Look! Nifty! Shiny! New! Gimme gimme gimme!

(Month passes) I is bored now.

I go play with old toys now(pugs).

I believe Nemon was saying he thinks there are a lot of people who don't want to play heroes even now, not a month later.

Yes, lots want to and the few that dont feel compelled to level their henchies too. The fact that this is a new game and players dont know how much or little henchies play in later missions is also going to contribute to them taking the safe route and leveling henchies. This is how i approached the problem of heroes myself, i assume other PuG players would think like me and level their hench.

Anyone who tries to get a PuG in any of the early mission areas is going to be 100% convinced the only way they're ever going to be able to play is to hench it, and thus perpetuating the hero-hench cycle of single player loneliness.

I actually got into a party on noob island with a couple of lvl6 only to be kicked from the party so the lvl6 could add his hench. How can you not see a problem with that? I had to hench all 4 missions on noob island as a lvl20 monk, seriously. You're telling me a lvl6 wants to take his lvl6 whatever hero-hench more than a lvl20 monk because the lvl6 hench is better? or he is scared i'm some rage-quitter?

3. Spending 30 minutes trying to get into a group and not being accepted because you play an ritualist, mesmer, assassin, dervish, etc. any profession not in demand or in over-supply. Not entering the mission at all.

4. Completing a mission with 5/8 because of leechers and rage quitters.

Don't get me wrong, I've been in great PUGs. But over 18 months of play I can think of 3 or 4 truely excellent ones, and far more than that pathologically crappy or abusive ones.

Yes there are good PUGs and yes it is fun to play with others. The problem is forming a group can sometimes take forever. Heroes mean freedom to play whatever char I want to, knowing I can find the right mix of support. If I want to play with others I'll check my guild and alliance first.

Heroes didn't kill multiplayer - PUG attitudes towards professions did.

Did you happen to notice the profession mix? Sorry, but what you are describing is the way some people have lived in this game for MONTHS, far before the advent of Heroes. So it is hard to feel sympathetic. Maybe it is just the masses now are noticing their Warrior can't find a group and this shocks and confuses them. You think the mesmer or assassins ever had it easy?

Simply put, Heroes are a GODSEND for professions that are constantly passed over. ANET can't fix PUG attitudes but they sure as heck can implement better hench (i.e. Heroes).

since i was playing since early beta i can actually answer this.

the hench AI has been improved drastically over what it used to be.

back during chapter 1 if an expert managed certain missions with henchies they would brag on a site *i beat xxxx with henchies* and people would consider it a monumental achievement.

also several missions/quests have been made easier so henching is now possible to more people.

Altheas Ashes (3000 exp i think) quest is a easy solo walk now where it actually used to be a full group fail 5 times and finally beat it worth 3000 exp quest.

does anybody remember our little healer running (always) into a crowd of enimies to help and YOU had to rez HER?

or my favorite next to bouncing between 2 points forever was the rez when 6 axe warriors were standing on me?

the simple answer is that back then it was only the expert/very good players who were ABLE to hench.

now people have a choice on which to take and the hero is the clear winner after being burned so many times by the random community at large (PUG)

So explain then why in later missions more and more ppl drop their "superior" heroes and turn to real player PuGs?

Could it be that Heroes aren't as great as they're being made out to be and you still need to rely on better players to complete hard areas? Is it that once players have their henchies leveled to 20 they relax and mix it up playing PuGs for a laugh? Could it be they just get bored of their henchies and crave some real interaction? Perhaps all three. In anycase hero-hench elitism isn't a problem later in the game it just makes half the game single player and suck for anyone who wants to PuG.

i have a completely other idea on this to toss out for inspection.

is it possible that the late mission people willing to group with other late mission people are in a completely (superior) class as opposed to the early pug jerks?

just a thought having nothing to do with heroes but simply that the game has sorted out the loser/jerks and you have a decent chance now of a good group to actually have fun with before the jerks catch up to you later

Another point about Heroes...

Heroes are no replacement for humans in the endgame areas or the elite areas...

The biggest loss will be in the early areas of the game where pugging becomes less common because "if you can Hero, why Pug?"...

This means that the hardest hit areas will be N00bland. So later when you have to PUG in theory there should be less N00bs because they will have had to have made it that far...without runners...

Ah yes there is the hidden silver liner...

Heroes might just be the death of runners...

No PUGs = No Runners yes?

No one is forcing anyone to hero-hench. I see plenty of LFG in mission towns, so if you wanted to PuG you should just join one of them. I *still* see people spamming "7/8 looking for monk to go!" for over thirty minutes, meaning these people clearly don't want to use heroes and are willing to wait for a real monk instead. Everyone on the forums predicted that "monks will be useless because of heroes lololol" ... wrong. So the people who don't want to hench *aren't* henching. That's a fact.




This is exactly contrary to your own earlier statement about CPU-controlled players not being better than humans:

So which is it, Nemon? Are heroes better than humans, or are they worse?

As I've said countless times, the only question anyone has to ask themselves in order to understand what is really going on is "Why don't (some) people like to PuG?". As a corollary, why do PuGs draw all the hate that they do, why are there so many threads bashing them and complaining about them?

Heroes are the solution to a problem. They represent additional options. They are not a problem in and of themselves.

I am a hench-quest/Pugs-missons type.
Having heroes seem to be benefit to me even when I am doing misson with pugs.Heroes sure give party a member to play a build that needed but hard to find role. Like warrior who use defensive shout , necro who keep party alive with curses.
So Pugs with heroes will likely to make PvE experince much better.

there should be a title for getting through all missions in pugs with out heros. I beat the game using all heros except against the litch king and shiro. Just the fact that getting a full pug with out heros would be a challenge in itself now with how good the heros are. Not saying hero grps or pugs are good or bad here play how you want but i would like to see a pug completion title that says "I BEAT THE GAME WITH ALL PUGS AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS STUPID TITLE" crap thats a little long oh well. Maybe jus the title "Mr. Pug"

This seems to contradict your earlier post saying that a large percentage of people feel compelled to level heroes. So are there many or are there only a few?

If there really is a large number of people who want to PUG, then there should be plenty of advertising and PUGs forming, and no one would make this false assumption. Besides, you do see people going LFG on the starter island, so obviously they are not making the same assumption.

Did the lvl6 give the reason? There could be several:

1. He decided a hero/hench is better after all. Or he wanted to play at his own level without a lvl20 steamrolling over everything. Or he wanted to level his hero voluntarily. That's a matter of preference - don't see a problem here.

2. It was a mission and he realized he had to take the requisite hero in order to start. That's a separate PVE game design issue.

3. He kicked you, as you reasoned, because he's forced to level his heroes, because he couldn't find PUGs? That seems to mean either:

a) There just aren't that many people who want to PUG, or
b) There are lots of people who want to PUG, but they're silently ignoring other puggers who are yelling LFG/GLF, hence feeding into the "hero-hench cycle of loneliness"? If that's true, then it'd be entirely self-inflicted. But really, a) seems a much more likely and straightforward explanation than b).

How to explain why there are more PUGs later on in the game? Heroes and henches give consistent performance, while humans can potentially perform much better or worse (though more often the latter). The increased difficulty later on, especially for timed missions, causes some hench players to gamble on getting lucky with a good human team. This part hasn't changed from the old chapters. What did change was that there are now fewer missions in ch.3 that requires this gamble, due to the increased effectiveness of the heroes.

Outside of this thread, I (personally) haven't seen anyone asking or complaining about being forced to level heroes just in case they are critical for later missions. Whereas there are plenty of known hate for PUGs in the game and on the forums.

I use heros for one reason: People are idiots. I have noticed that the average age of a Guild Warrior has gone up with the release of NF from 12 to upper teens, but the experiances I have had in the past are still too fresh.

I use NPCs in missions all the way untill the mainland when it becomes too hard, then I draw on my Friends, Guild, Alliance, and finally as a last resort a PuG.

Nothing i have said has been a contradiction. I have not stated any absolutes, and absolutes aren't that important when people can notice the difference in game themselves anway.

There are more gamers advertising for PuGs _later_ in the game because they have their henchies leveled, later levels are too hard to hench for some _and_ because they want to. Consider this, are you going to level your heroes on your next character? Yes you hench everything, but everyone at some point _has_ to hench; It's even required by the game, so leveling heroes is desirable, encouraged and _thus_ promotes anti-cooperative game play. It's like playing multiplayer chess online with a bot opponent, it's just a stupid concept all around. I know of no other multiplayer game that encourages people to play alone, infact quite the opposite.

Everyone seems to read that i am attacking heroes when it's not the heroes per se that are the problem, it is their tightly woven game requirement that have you rejecting real players to take hench because the game encourages it. Notice i did not say forced? You are perfectly free to try find a PuG in the deluge of henchers in early mission areas, but you'll just be screwed in later missions if you _have to_ hench because there is no one available to PuG with, and you need to take your lvl4 Koss on a lvl18 mission.

I've henched a ton of quests in factions, and altho it's not realy fun, it's not hard either. Heroes are a good upgrade to old hench but they don't intrinsically change anything. It is the games woven reliance on heroes that is the problem.

Currently heroes are much much worse than a real player, but there is no reason why they can't be trained/scripted to almost perfection. How great do you make hench before they're just a cheap way to blow through the game? There are already people reporting they've been AFK and come back to find their heroes taking out groups all on their own. That's the game playing the game for you. The only thing heroes have going for them (for those that need them) are they never disobey(outside their own technical limitations you can account for), they will take any skills you set them with and you never have to wait for a party. They are an important part of questing, but should only be in missions as a _last_ resort.

How about this for a compromise, heroes dont get XP from missions?

I dont see many people complaining about alot of things, doesn't mean they couldn't be improved.

well....as much as I would rather be with live players...most groups now adays dont really seem to want anything cept tanks, MM, monks and a nuker. I am a ranger and I do try to get with live players first but after a while you get tired of getting eithe rejected or ignored so I am forced to take heroes and henchies

Adding one hero to an otherwise all-human party doesn't really qualify as 'henching'. Levelling heroes is easily done even without bringing them on missions.

I haven't yet entered a mission town in Elona where no one was LFG, so the notion of being forced to play alone because there's no one else to play with seems absurd to me.

I don't know what kind of PuGs you're getting, but Heroes are actually much better than the average player. The fact that they follow directions and take appropriate skills already makes them miles ahead of a typical PuG. And of course they also have lightning reflexes. Given the quality of the player pool in GW right now, it's no wonder that heroes are the first choice, rather than the last resort that you suggest.

Even assuming you can't find PUGs in later missions, what will help you most to hench a hard mission is the humble little green flag, not the heroes. There's no hard requirement to level the heroes for anyone who doesn't want to. Just use the henches.

Now, I haven't finished Nightfall yet. Are there situations where it's possible to win with a hero-hench group, but impossible for a full-hench group? If so, I still can't see why you'd need to level more than 1 or 2 heroes for those special cases. (Titan quests are a special case - henches are not viable not because of any inherent flaw, but simply because of their low levels).

Heroes > Hencies > PUgs 80% of the time for me

Adding one hero or a couple of heros to a human party is just fine, _and_ your have to do that on several missions, which is why i leveled my hench.. I didn't know before hand which hench were going to be required for what missions, so i leveled them all like everyone else is doing.

The problem is people go into PuGs with this arrogant anti-PuG attitude and seem to take offence to everything. I have a great time in PuGs and most of my PuGs are a success. If not the first time then usually i keep the mood high enough that we stick together and succeed the second time. It's not science or difficult todo, it's how poor some other ppl are at building team spirit and motivation. If you sit in a corner being a sour faced critic of every PuG then im pretty sure all your PuGs are gonna suck.

I started NF from Tyria, and the first couple of missions in Elona i was unable to find a party. Perhaps if i had persisted for long enough i might have found one but it seemed everyone was pretty much ignoring me and taking hero-hench. A couple of missions on and it became much easier to get a group to my relief. After i had completed the game i went back to master all the missions; I mastered nearly every Elona mission with a real party and only the early Elona missions and _every_ noob island mission was i forced to PuG.

All im saying is leveling henchies is a bad idea. Would it harm the hero-henchers if their heroes level were based on their own? No, i dont think it would, so why not support what i am saying for the sake of the few or many who would like to see more people to PuG with? It's not like im talking about nerfing hench atall.

People who want to group with pugs will group with you regardless of whether they need to level heroes or not. The fact is, you can only take 3 heroes max per person and missions only require 1. If someone decides to fill up the rest of the party with henchies, its a clear indication that he wants to suffer none of the pug blues that are possible and whether or not heroes are required for missions is a moot point. I mean if they wanted to pug, wouldn't they just pick the required hero and fill the rest with pug members? The fact that they don't means they never had the intention of puging in the first place. Oh and making missions give no xp for heroes is about the dumbest thing i have heard. What is that going to achieve? Uber low leveled required heroes in a pug? Forced grinding in explorable areas for people who want to hero/hench or have better leveled heroes in pugs?

The only way you are going to have more people to pug with is if it is forced on them. Heroes/henchies have proven their worth to me since i beat NF entirely just hero/henching it. This included getting masters on almost all of the missions including the last 2 missions and a lot of them were on the first try. With such a high success rate, and without my guildies/friends around, why would i suddenly have a masochistic streak and go looking for a pug which might fail or pull some stunt that makes me pull out my hair?

I hate pugs and always use hench.
When i get nf ill use Heroes.

Heroes, with the right skill bar, are better than pugs, hands down. Pugs will always have people who are bad, don't know how to control agro and leave the second things look bad. I can't count how many times I ended up with a 5 or 6 man group by the end of THK and still won.

Heroes have a customizable skillbar, follow orders better than pugs and don't draw penises/swastikas on the radar. Tell me, why should I use pugs? So far, my friend and I have only had to repeat one mission, which was the one with the level 16 agro-magnet, and even that was fixed the 3rd time through. Other than that, we've beaten every single mission (expert/master's) on the first try. We've seen people, in local chat, complain that missions are tough/impossible and roll that very mission with our 6 heroes without breaking a sweat.

Finished ranting?

Everyone has their own reasons for getting into GW. Although i do enjoy playing with other people alot, i for one got addicted to GW for NOT being forced to.

It's painfull remembering the times in everquest end-game having to work 3 or more hours to assemble a raid group and them having to stay with them for 5 or more hours to do the raid.

I love the fact that i can jump into GW whenever i feel like it, even if i only have 30 minutes to play just before going to work.

The choice for single- or multiplayer in GW is not mutually exclusive. I can do a mission with a pug and then continue on a quest with my heroes. I can play however i want to play it.

Now for the people that want to group for everything i can only say .. find a nice guild/alliance of like-minded people.

It is true that PUG's are on the brink of death for the short term while everyone is checking out and leveling their heroes.

It may even remain dead as the number of horrible PUG players is extremely high.


Last night i got a good laugh out of it.

I was doing the blacktide den mission for characters on my second account. Because i only needed myself, 3 heroes and 2 henchmen to succeed 100% and 1 slot for the character to be run through i basicly had one slot left.

So i decided to invite someone calling for a group. He wanted to be absolutely sure that i was doing bonus too. I told him yes .. mission and bonus.

After killing the last rinkhal monitor he left. So i asked him if all he needed was just the bonus? He said yes, so i asked him to check the mission status on his map. He went silent when he noticed he had not received the bonus yet .. to get it you have to complete the mission.

By being he selfish he managed to NOT achieve his goal.

And if his secondary goal was to deny me completing the mission he failed that too.

I just laughed.

Hey Shag...we had something like that happen during hte next to the last mission of Propheses. A group of us decided to give it a while even though we were only 3 rangers, a mesmer, and and ele. We invited a warrior whom supposedly was looking to do the mission and rest of team we filled with the henchie healers cause we couldnt find any live ones. Soon as we killed this one warrior boss (cant remember off hand whom it was) he laughed and left the group. We figured we would go on and see how far we could get without a tank..and we ended up finishing the mission successfully. As we got to the last mission we decided to stay together and look for another tank and there he was...the tank whom thought it was funny to abandon us looking for a group for mission and bonus. We passed him over and took a tank henchie and finished hte mission and bonus as well as the game. 10 mins later I went back to help a friend of mine's team get through the last mission..and there was that same warrior..stills spamming LFG. I couldnt help but laugh

Hey Shag...we had something like that happen during hte next to the last mission of Propheses. A group of us decided to give it a while even though we were only 3 rangers, a mesmer, and and ele. We invited a warrior whom supposedly was looking to do the mission and rest of team we filled with the henchie healers cause we couldnt find any live ones. Soon as we killed this one warrior boss (cant remember off hand whom it was) he laughed and left the group. We figured we would go on and see how far we could get without a tank..and we ended up finishing the mission successfully. As we got to the last mission we decided to stay together and look for another tank and there he was...the tank whom thought it was funny to abandon us looking for a group for mission and bonus. We passed him over and took a tank henchie and finished hte mission and bonus as well as the game. 10 mins later I went back to help a friend of mine's team get through the last mission..and there was that same warrior..stills spamming LFG. I couldnt help but laugh

have you even stopped to consider the following facts that might explain why people (ESPECIALLY VETERANS) are grabbing heroes with open arms saying welcome its been a long time coming?

1. the anti PUG posts started soon after release of GW so NIGHTFALL HEROES have nothing to do with the i hate PUGS crowd.

2. people have consistantly expressed ever more frequently on forums how they want *anything but a PUG*

unlike you those anti PUG people have been burned so often that it is almost a hate reflex now.

this happened BEFORE Nightfall so Nightfall cannot be blamed for the anti pug hate.

that hate was put there by the groups we are NOW FREE OF AT LAST

You're beginning to see the point - heroes aren't the problem. People just didn't want to PuG in the first place.

Sounds like a real super genius. I got a laugh out it.