Problem: Solution?

First allow me to begin by stating that I am not an elite veteran who say they have every title in the game, all the green weapons, FoW armor, and 250 Black dyes in storage on a Mule...But I am no n00b.

Heck I cant even claim to have yet beaten every chapter because I am taking my time, and trying to do it all on limited playtime...

But, I do avidly read the boards when things get slow here at my work... (internet access at work is a gift from the gods to be sure!)

And one things I have seen is a growing concern that Heroes are killing the game, and that there are no longer any people looking for PUGs...and Tied to this are an increasing number of players complaining that without farming and running (which some claim is nerfed) they have grown bored...

My solution to both of these problems, while perhaps a bit naieve, is simplicity itself!

Become a Mentor!

PUG everywhere, but especially with n00bs! Find someone in Ascalon and team up with them through as much of the game as you can tollerate!

Looking for a challenge? Try to keep a group of n00bs lacking experience alive during a tough mission instead of doing a run!

See a l33t [email protected] making a fool of themselves and annoying everyone around them? Invite them on a run and have a little "chat" with them enroute, maybe give 'em a few valuable trinkets to enrich their characters while you enrich their minds to reinforce your example!

Create a guild who's only purpose is to school the n00bs (litterally) on how to make the GW community the best one around! Gather the most tollerant players you can find, and create your own "Guardian Angels"! Spread the word of GW!

Play watchdog for the Local and Trade channels, diffusing or reporting the Scammers and abusers.

Instead of complaining about the community, work actively to improve it!

Instead of wishing there were more PUGs or that PUGs were more fun, make it so!

This is just my two cents, and I hope no one decides this is the perfect target for a flame attack or an excellent chance to point out that I am st00p!d for being so naieve...But I think what I am sayign has merit...

So now, in my mind, it's up to those complaining loudest...do they want change bad enough to work for it...or will they only be happy if its someone else doing the work. And dont get me wrong, this is work I am proposing...but then again so is farming and running...and the way I see it, you'll meet more people and have a lot more variety than ripping through the same mobs over and over in the hope of getting those greens, golds and Ectos...

Consider this a challenge...who accepts? I look forward to seeing people out there PUGing for change!

-FexFX

If n00bs don't suffer mission loss after mission loss, they won't learn how to improve their skills. No pain, no gain.

Holding hands for n00bs won't help them in the long run.

So then are you saying that, other than the painful brick wall methodology you suggest, there is no way for a n00b to learn? Are you implying that you could not assist a n00b in being less of a n00b? That your own experiences are something no one else might benefit from? Did no one ever give you good advice or take you on a run?

Are you saying you can't turn a common flowergirl into a proper lady?

To be honest I don't find finding a PUG too much harder than before. As for your plans to improve the community - almost every online community for a game seems to start off all nice, dancing on the green grass in the sunshine while making daisy chains, but thye all get corrupted and if you are going to try and stop the next generation of scam artists and noobs just talking to them and doing the work for them isn't going to stop them, they are more likely to just take advantage of you and still do what they would do, but just be worse in-game and maybe not quit due to that near impossible mission you guided them through.

So you take the stance that people just natually end up sucking eventually so why do anything? That a n00b PUG/Scammer is what they are and cannot be helped/changed and must therefore be merely tollerated/ignored? That trying to do anything about it is pointless? Is all reform an illusion?

Between trying and surrendering, do you prefer surrendering?

At one point one must give up a losing battle.

Are these the only people out there? Those who believe that this is a lost cause? Is the GW community therefore automatically doomed because everyone believes that people just plain suck and that doing something/anything about it is a completely pointless waste of time? Have the [email protected]/Scammers broken our spirits and defeated us so soundly that surrender is this automatic?

Is hope for fools?

No, the ignorant will always be strong, as there is strenght in numbers.

out of everything you just said - i find this to be best. Beacuse frankly, its annoying seeing everyone complain about the nerfs, or the hero's, or the chests, or farming or whatever.

But I will say that I think that begining players or 'n00bs' need to learn things on there own, when I first started playing i mainly played with myself and henchman - i didn't want help from anyone, beacuse i wanted to go through on my own - it was very fun and challenging, and it took quite a long time. But i think in some cases, expecially certain missions or quests, help is needed - I know when i first got to post-searing and I went to go to the quest to get althea's ashes - I got my butt whooped :/ But I do always find it rewarding to help other players, IF they appreciate it.

Is there then no value in the wisdom of the few? Is the Lone Voice In The Wilderness wasting their breath? Can no group no matter how small/large ever affect a change when faced with adversity? Is change impossible?

Where would be be if every great mind in history had felt this way?

Well, real life and this game are very different, think about it like that.

Well, seeing as how the game is 'inhabited' by real life people, the differences end up being less than you might think. They are the same people, just with a different, more anonymous atmosphere to operate in.

But that's just my two cents

Ah! Finally a voice of assent!
Mostly...

So maybe not starting from Ascalon, but a bit further in? I remember fondly joining with groups for Althea's ashes, and learning many of the things I was doing wrong from more experienced players! Making friends and feeling like there was indeed a community I was a part of...Doesn't it make sense to actively seek to preserve that? Isn't it always better to be helpful than to despair? Learning alone only gets you so far...a mentor's value cannot be underestimated!

So will you make it a personal goal to help a n00b and improve Ascalon?

Is there anyone else out there that feels the way I do? Are the voices of reason and hope so quiet that they cannot be heard above the din of despair?

Yes, but in real life is there an ultimate supreme dictator (anet in this game) who can decide to do anything they want at any time? (god doesn't count :P)

In real life, are there not those who work for change? Are those who strive to make the world a better place in Real Life wasting their time as you seem to imply we would be in this Virtual Life?

I can name a dozen lone voices that changed the world. Can you?

Should they have decided that the battle was hopeless? What would the world be like had they remained silent? Do you think we should strive not because the odds do not favor us?

Read the book 1984 by george orwell, it adaquetly sums up at least how I think GW and Anet is and will continue to be.

Yes, at the least you can name it nature. Would you choose not to help victims in a crisis because some may loot or take unfair advantage of your help?

At the worst you can call is society, the mob mind...If the mob decides to run amok and riot, by this argument no one should try to stem the tide because it is the will of a greater power!

And, unlike Nature and The Mob Mind, ANet listens...We may not always like the way they respond, but ultimately we cannot be held accountable for their actions, only our own. Innaction is an action. Indifference makes a difference. Apathy is contageous!

But that book had a hero! A voice that tried to speak out! I will grant you that like all messiah characters in history and in fiction, he was "crucified" for trying to fight the system...I doubt there is much chance of any such dramatic outcome.

But you seem to have drifted off topic...This was not an indictment of ANet or the mechanics of the game...It was a suggestion of how to affect change within the community rather than stewing in our collective despair that certain aspects of the game are no longer the same as they once were...Alternatives...new passtimes to replace old. A way to improve our lot rather than to accept it...

Would you say that such an endeavor is utterly without merit?

Your post while observant and salient in its relevance, does not state how you feel about the subject...Is such an endeavor worth it? Would you choose to help n00bs and expose scammers in an effort to improve the commuinty as a whole? Will you PUG for change?

Um. 1984 has no relevance to this topic whatsoever.

You are probably thinking of Marxism or Communism, which is completely different than 1984. And it's a stretch enough comparing either of those to 1984.

What does Anet have anything to do with how the community tries to improve itself?

Really Anet has no control over how much its players want to be scammers, assholes, or exploiters.

As tangental as this is, Zinger314 is at least partially correct. 1984 was about a totalitarian society that sought to suppress the creative and instictive urges of man. As a primary tactic they enforced their viewpoint through a totalitarian supression of the truth and a constant campaign of misinformation. In this sense it bears no analog when compared to ANet. And instead of Marxism or Communism, I think you mean Fascisim or Dictatorial...And neither of those are a completely fair comparisson. Instead this is more of a Monarchy, an unelected ruling body with absolute powre granted by divine right (in this case because they could be viewed as being one with the creator of the universe wherein Ascalon resides). Now lets see if we can end this engaging and informative tangent to return to our feature presentation.

I love playing with pugs and I often try to help some of the new players in my guild. But, I think being the "helpful" type of player pretty much has to be part of your personality. I can't imagine half of the posters here ever being nice or helpful in the game, unless it's toward their own profit.

Great post FexFx, you're trying to be part of the solution rather than being part of the problem. I wish more people had your point of view about gameplay and how to treat other players.

Precisely, the responsibility for the actions of the community its that of the community itself! My proposal is that those of us with this newfound surplus of time born of the death of Farming and Running should use this time to improve the society in which we have invested our time!

Will you, Lyra Song, invest the time to make Ascalon a better place?

Thank you Trvth! I appreciate the recognition! My time is spent playing, and I never hesitate to join a group when I can! I play solo when the mood grabs me, but I do not disdain the n00b, and actually enjoy the opportunity to assist those who could benefit from the experience of those who have been playing longer! And when I see someone in a foul mood I find an act of random charity can actually confound their rant and possibly turn them around!

Experience and skill comes from frustration, hardship, and most of all mistake upon mistake. If flower power towers like yourself run around offering to hold everyones hand, all people would learn is that they really don't have to learn a damn thing, because people like you will do everything for them. If you see a "noob" who needs help do what I do:

Give a briefe answer to what he's asking but be specific enough so he can figure it out. If he pesters you and needs you to break it down word by word, tell him to figure it out and stop bugging you.

You can't just teach people how to play the game, they have to first find out what doesn't work, and eventually they learn what does. It will never work the other way around.

And drop the "yay let's all sing a song" stuff please... its beyond pathetic.

True enough. Here's my take on it: I play the game as I go through life. I treat those I encounter with respect, I give assistance when asked(within reason) and advice where desired. If I find myself knowledgeable of a possible scam, I inform others(such as making sure people selling black dye know its worth). I don't tend to go out of my way, as I do tend to hench my way around.
I enjoy pugs, but I hench because I hold myself to a certain standard around other people. If I don't know enough about a mission I'll learn what I can from wiki and running through with henchies before attempting to take a character through(for instance my non-ascended ranger through the desert) with other people.
I frankly hope pugs stay alive, for several reasons:
1)I enjoy them
2)they are a great teaching aid, as I can learn to play a class more creatively by watching another player, not a henchie.
3)when I no longer feel like I want to play alone, I love socializing with other players, even if its just a bad joke while my char is lying dead on the floor.

But the deciding factor will not come from someone slightly moderate, such as I. The deciding factor in pug survival and the assistance of new players will come from decisions from those who truly solo and hench/hero their way through the game, to the exclusion of pugs altogether. People other than casual players like myself. If these people can build a long term guild to assist new players,etc. I wholly support them. If more people would simply take time out occasionally to lend a helping hand, to relive the moments they had when they were new, maybe the disposition of the community would be a bit rosier, a little more light hearted.

We'll simply have to see.
But that's just my two cents

Wow...and the personal attacks begin.
To be fair it took longer than I expected!

Okay first off you are unfairly categorizing me. In real life I am much more of a conservative than an liberal, and believe that handouts are in general only a way to enable the lazy. Which is essentially the position you are espousing, and I will whole heartedly agree with you! (Much to your surprise)

However I am more suggesting that you teach a man to fish rather than give him a fish! Do I suggest charity? Yes! But I also suggest helping...really helping the n00bs to stop being n00bs...which is why I said above its actually a bit of work! There is no quick fix, but if you take some time with a n00b and go adventuring with them (that's with and not for) they will doubtless learn something if you choose to use some of that time to share wisdom! Ar you saying no one ever gave you information or went on a mission with you and gave you some pointers along the way? That you learned everything the hard way? If so, then I'm sorry.

Also, I never suggested anyone sing, as I cannot carry a tune in a bucket, and the music I love generally runs counter to the central core of this thread (NIN if you care). If I seem to be adopting a sunny disposition and a positive outlook, it is because I am trying to effect a positive change and you do indeed catch more flies with honey than vinegar...and if such an attitude offends you, you have my appologies in advance.

I am not saying you should teach every single person every secret of the game, I am saying that this might be a better way to spend time than being bitter over the end of Farming and Running, or than complaingin you are bored because the Elite mission is missing, or any of the equally negative complaints I have read in this forum of late.

I am saying to whit: If you want change then make it happen.

Have you ever met this kind of people in the game? A kind of people who claim that they have 10 characters, all complete 3 games for so many times. Yet he never really learned anything about the game whatsoever.

You know this because he tells you such claim after he's leading your entire team to a dead end in a mission.

I have nothing against helping new players, really. But I'd rather have them learning about the game instead.

Beautifully put Sli Ander! You are exactly the kind of player we need about a hundred thousand more of! Yes, it would be great if a guild of full time do-gooders were formed...and I despair such a thing may never come to pass, but I would join in a heartbeat even tho I am not a full-time player but more in the casual specturm like yourself, yet I would join merely on the principal of supporting such an ideology!

I like your way of thinking FexFX; I thought the same way... about 5 months ago. After awhile this community (in game and in this forum sometimes) has really just burnt me out and to a point, I could honestly care little for the betterment of it, however I still care for the state of the game, as I enjoy playing it... when it works.
Over the last 5 months, well, longer actually, but it was about 5 months ago when I gave up. I would be in the forums, adding to "ideals" and suggestions for making the game more fun. I was a big "begger" for more character slots, and for example, was constantly slammed for something that was not needed, but a useful addition for anyone who wanted one. I was always big on possible ideas for in game additions and new "toys" to play in and with. However, no matter the idea, some arrogant little fanboy would always say "nothing wrong with the system, stop complaining"... however, there was never a complaint made... many of these ideas were in Sanitarium and were getting some support. I gave them up and let them die as I was getting sick of the fanboism.
In game, it got even worse. I used to PuG all the time. Loved it. As a former long time player of EQ, I was used to needing groups of people to play with. GW was new in that henchies could fill in the blanks. I PuGged my way through most of the first chapter, found a guild, then grouped with them AND PuGs as a mix.
Shortly after Factions came out (not blaming Factions for you Fanboys; refering to as a time line), I continued with PuGs up untill the point where one of the following happened at least 5 or more times a day:

1) AFKers would sit through the missions - had one afker have the nerve to scream and curse the whole group for not going on without him (we sat waiting for 35 minutes).
2) The Cap'n'Map players. These people who need a cap and rather than simply say "Can we go get this cap" (which I would have loved to help them get); would aggro the boss mob, pull it on the group, grab the cap then map out.
3) The Mapper - rather than take henchies or set up a "mapping group" these people will simply run off from the group to unlock portions of the map; sometimes returning with a nice train behind them then map out.
4) The "I know all" complex - Instead of giving reason certain skills would be useful against certain mobs, these fools join a group and instantly begin demanding who takes what to compliment their "perfect" build... as if there were such a thing in PvE. One such instance had me PuGging with a new player. We were about to take on Glint. He was, like I said, new and had not picked up Winter. The group leader without a word kicked him out. I was, at the time the only monk in the zone, and so in retort, without word, dropped from the group and re-joined with the new guy. I explained about Winter and Glint's "toys" and he joyfully went and picked it up.

After many months of this, I gave up. Haven't PuGged since and I admit, I miss it. But I do not miss the above behavior which I ended up with 100% (yea, 100%) of the time.

A final thought and close; look at how you yourself opened this thread:

You have to set up the thread cause you know someone is bound to jump in here and try and start a flame war to derail the topic or at best, flame you for being someone without a clue.

In answer; no, I can't help you change the betterment of the game. I've tried. Trying right now to get the AI fixed so it's not a game of tag - for that I'm flamed daily by fanboys. Gaile has stated that some of the unusal AI is not widespread, yet because someone doesn't see the "bug"; it's my fault or simply because I'm not using a FoTM build... yet, still... for trying to get something improved for all, I'm a whiner and complainer... sorry...

Good luck with your ideas though.

Heh, yah I think we've all encountered those!

But I've also adventured with those who actually did know their way around and actually took the time to point out landmarks and other useful tricks to knowing you are on the right path.

From simple things like pointing out where the almost hidden path to a secret was placed so that it would be hidden by a subtle rise in the terrain to more complex things like how to tell you are on the right path using mob density and frequency as a predictive measurement...

Thanks to one Ranger in particular, I'll never fail to find where to lay the Tome to rest, or the secret weapon of the Dwarves again...I have some useful landmarks now...

Well thats kind of what im trying to say - I mean it really depends on the person, I personally learn a lot from teaching myself, but i sometimes can learn from others - where as some people learn more from others, and less from selves.

I have occasionally when i have been bored or had nothing else to do went back to ascalon and offered help before to others, and there were times when i was VERY annoyed.

For example. I helped one person out with a few quests. I was with my warrior, and they asked if i could run, I said yes, and they asked if i would give them a free run to courthouse. Well thats not a long or hard run at all - so i said sure. Once we got there, they asked for a run to yaks. and so on and so forth, and after we got to Lions Arch, They left - and i realized I hadn't been thanked once. Where as other times, I have helped people, and they have greatly appreciated it - even offering me a dye that dropped for them, or whatever. And I like to help others when I feel its needed or appreciated. But again, after running that person to LA - i realized two things 1.They didn't NEED to get to LA and 2.They did'nt appreciate my help at all.

So, ending this long post - I would love to go back and help people when I am out of things to do, or feel like it. I just want it to be appreciated. And more times then not, people don't appreciate it.

You want to know why pugs are so deplorable now? It's because everyone these days was just lead through the game by someone who already knew how to do everything.

I was teaming with a ranger the at THK last week (yea, I was planning on doing it solo with henches and heros, but I thought I would be "nice" since he said he was a trapper and I assumed he knew what he was doing) and he told me he'd beaten this before on another character. Well as we got to end, he had absolutely no idea WTF to do because last time he just did what he was told like a brainless little tool and followed everyone else. So I had to explain in great detail what his purpose for being there was. I swear to god I almost exploded on him, but we did beat the mission flawlessly and he'll probably go on never understanding HOW we won, because me and my heros did all the work.

So because I helped some "noob" beat THK you think that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside? Hell no, that pisses me off to no end because now he'll go on to make the ROF missions hell for someone else.

However, if that ranger had to fail that mission 15 times, once he finally beats it maybe he'd learn a thing or two.

The more you help people the less they learn. At best, the most anyone needs is a little direction. You, however, would rather build a set of tracks.

Thank you for your insiteful and very well written post. You've presented valid points and rather than just shoot down my ideals you've given examples of problems that you found difficult to surmount! This is the sort of engaging discussion that will only benefit the community!

First let me applaud that you have not given up on the game as some claim to have (yet still they post endlessly). Second let me encourace you to never give up trying to be a voice for change. The fanbois cannot stop you from voicing your concerns if you do so rationally and not allow them to bait you with their empty rhetoric.

I agreed that all fo the things you list are problems, and for the most part those same problems have no solutions...however if you allow these problems to cause you to give up on PUGing alltogether...then you have allowed them to win. You have been beaten by the small minded tactics of poor players.

There is an element which for lack of a better word can be decribed as "malevolent" that works to errode any online community. This element has many faces, the Troll, The Scammer, The Whiner, The Griefer...The only way to beat them is to stay true to your own beliefe because as sure as water is wet you can be certain they will not change just because you give up or give in.

Instead dont let them deter you! Keep PUGing just to spite them! Instead of doing a farming run, mix it up and help a PUG through a mission you've already beaten...you'll get a bit of loot and maybe make a few friends along the way...and more importantly, you'll let new players who are not part of this malevolent element know that there are good players left in GW...think about how many people would quit if they thought all that was left were the bad seeds? The good seeds have to be vocal and make themselves known! That is my point!

I set up the thread with that opener so that I could claim that my level of knowledge was honestly represented from the beginning, and to let everyone know that I was not claiming to come from a position of omniscience...and yes I was hoping it might deter the flames for at least a little while.

i do admit heros are a pain. I cant stand having to equip their weapons!

FexFX let me say this if you will.

Mentor system have already existed and proven not to work on a wide scale.

Its call PRE-HERO-PUG era.

In the past before Heros, everyone either PuGed or do missions with the sub standard AI called hencies. Back then most players were either ungrateful/brats/idiots/leeches/rude to other players who would give share on how a mission would work or the tips to it. Back then lesser players would just get carried forward into the game and just piss off others with their attitude and rage quits. Essentially what i am trying to tell you is:

In the past, other than your guild and friend list ingame community is close to non-existance and that is why HEROS were a god send.

Trying to tell others things like: "Hey lets all be nice and play with each others, Best friends 4ever?" have been proven not to work.

There will always be those who would give their own time to help others or be sociable and seek PuGs, but blaming Heros for the choice on how other should be playing their game is IMHO a indication of lack of self assertiveness. If you like some one to hold your hand and play your game for you, go buy a level 60 account on WoW.

I can see why you'd be annoyed by that! The only thing I can suggest is that next time, dont give away the cow with the milk. Make them work for it, they'll end up better off. Instead of Running them, make them keep up with you, fight stuff along the way, dont let them get through it without helping you kill stuff, and if they die...get yourself killed too jsut so they have to actually try for it! Running really helps no one in the long run, because as you said, he didn't really need to be there, he just wanted to be there and was not willing/able to work for it himself.

And of course he wasn't thankful, because in truth you gave him little of real value...you dont thank a prostitute, you pay them...sorry if that's a bit rough, but its the most honest analogy I can think of for a Runner...and in this case you didn't announce that payment was needed.

Now please I do not say this to offend, I merely show you why subjecting yourself to someone looking for a Runner is debasing, and ultimately leads to a feeling of having been used...afterall that's what running is...you do all the work, and they do...ummm...well sometimes I guess they pay pretty good...

See what I mean? I've never been a runner or used a runner. I'll run solo with henches and die a hundred times to reach an area before I'll pay someone to sprint while I just hang back...

Just refuse to be used! PUG but not as a runner. PUG as a player! ...a real player, the kind of player a n00b will admire!

Instead of being a runner, try being a "wilderness guide". Try advertising yourself as an experienced player who can show them the sights and help them to reach the next area...And along the way actually show them some of the neater parts of the world!

Heros are a double edged sword, but I assume people knew that before they asked for them to be implemented.

No sir, I do not propose a set of tracks. I propose that people share their experience and not hoard it or withold it because others are somehow undeserving! Your example illustrates to me that the person(s) who took them through THK the first time did not bother to explain what anything was or why it was being done. Rather than being mad at the n00b you should be mad at the person who enabled them to be a n00b. Thanks to your tutelage, on his next character I am betting that he will not be such a pain to his next group! You are dwelling on the negative. You want to see only that you were inconvienienced, and be upset that others may also be. Would you have been as upset if he had not claimed to have known what he was doing? Would you have teamed with him had he told you he was clueless? Would you have helped a n00b willingly?

...or are you actually upset that you accidentally helped a n00b because you'd have never willingly done so?

You insist that if he had been forced to fail that mission 15 times he'd have known better on his own...how does that add to anyone's enjoyment of the game? I'd much rather Work with an experienced group, and learn as I go...If I fail once or twice, then fine, but endless failure because no one will willingly help me? That's just frustrating and would lead me to think that GW only posessed two classes of people, the apathetic elite, and the hopeless n00b...

BAD: Hand holding a n00b and doing everything for them so they dont have to learn, thus ensuring that they will be n00bs forever.

GOOD: Helping a n00b and showing them how things actually work so they wont be a n00b anymore!

Teach them to fish, dont give them a fish.