Another thread about AI

First of all, my apologies to the rest of the forum community. this is yet ANOTHER thread about the AI since the update. I have sent increasingly frustrated e-mails to guild wars support about this issue, and each time they have responded insisting that I make a new post on the fan forums in order to get my question answered (despite there already being several of them).

Now my question (copied from my first e-mail to support):

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Since the introduction of the new AI I have noticed a severe problem with monster behaviour. I often play a Mo/A with dash specifically so i can break monster agro when being chased if my party dies. Since the update I have been unable to do so and monsters either:
a) Chase me across the entire map without stopping until I am dead also
b) seem to go back to their original patrol, then when i return to the area, repeatedly chase me away, meaning i can never resurrect my team.

I have noticed this is a particular problem in the fissure of woe and the southern shiverpeaks (with avicara guile and grawl being the worst offenders).

I have seen numerous posts about this on various fan forums and cannot find any proper information on this issue. Can you please tell me if this is a bug (and if so, when you think it may be fixed) or an intentional feature (and if so, why?).

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Gaile/Dev team, if you have the time to look into this i would be very grateful,

Thanks a lot

I second this question as well. Perma-lock and perma-aggro AI behaviour was introduced with the "AI fix" of October, 30 2006, and despite numerous pleas, we still haven't heard from Anet if this behaviour is intended, or they are going to fix it.

<-- increasingly frustrated

I'll third it. My whole party was wiped except for me while playing NF yesterday. I couldn't get anywhere near anyone to rez them because I would be chased away, even though the monsters were nowhere close to my aggro circle. As soon as I started to approach my fallen party, they'd charge after me. This isn't the first time either, just an example.

This isn't exactly AI, but they also need to fix the "spawn-killing" problem. When you res at a shrine you're likely to get attacked by a group patrolling near it. This is extremely frustrating because you will die lots of times before killing that group.

I would speculate that this is not a feature because I recall an old update where they changed FoW aggro behaviour so that the AI doesn't chase you so far across the map any more. It would be a major step backwards to now make it a "feature" to never be able to shake aggro anywhere.

This perma aggro happened to me a lot too. Most annoyingly on the Gate of Pain mission where I had a Terrorweb Dryder literally chase me halfway across the map, then I'd circle around and res a dead ally and repeat the cycle multiple times, then an Emissary got in on the action from time to time even though he was never re-aggroed during the flee cycle.

While we are on the subject of bugged aggro AI, I'm pretty sure Kormir also draws aggro like a gigantic magnet which is every bit or more annoying as any of the other problems listed in this thread seeing as Kormir cannot be controlled at all.

Definitely be good to have official word about this stuff.

/signed
i'd like to get an answer bout this issue finally too. i've been posting at other threads about my personal experiences with monster AI just like many other ppl did. i didn't see any responses from official side so far

Gaile made a thread about Anet devs answering some of our questions I remember, but I never got any answers lol...

And I would like to add that with the new AI, all skills that target adjacent, nearby etc foes are totally useless. With the mobs new spreadout and run, there are no adjacent or nearby foes.

This happened to me last night also. As soon as I would get anywhere near my dead party members, they would re-agro. We had to start over because the 3 live people couldn't get near the dead ones. Soon as we would break agro we would wait til the mob had moved back to their original spot, take a few steps towards them and here they would come again. Also, if you die and rez and then try to slip by the the mob that you had agro'd they will re-agro from a mile away.

Either make monsters break aggro and only re-estabilish aggro when the player enters their danger zone again or from now on call it the earshot bubble as it's only being accurate for working as an earshot range reference.

There are certain areas on the Domain of Anguish where if most of your party dies, you've lost. Monsters will NEVER break aggro and will chase you FOREVER, the only way to counter this is what I call the "aggro stretch" method, and will require at least 2 people alive able to communicate with each other.

A and B will run in opposite ways. Let's say the monsters are chasing A. So, after a while running, B stops and A continues running. There will be a point where monsters will lock B as a target, and start running after him. A can now stop, and will run back and forth, making the monsters keep switching targets, so they will reach none. This is harder with bigger distances and with more people, but will earn you enough time to ressurect your teammates if done properly.

The monsters that specifically don't break aggro so far I've met are the pop-ups on Stygian Veil, on the way to the second Underlord.
Any other monster that will not chase you forever will still re-estabilish aggroed behaviour if you get within a certain distance of dead people, no matter where the monster is, it will start coming for you.

This problem with the AI is older then most think. It’s been around since Factions came out. Huge treads with screen shots I think some one even posted a video. But I will say that the latest update to improve has made it more noticeable.

Before the update they would at least break arrgo most of the time, now is is almost to impossible to rez you team, since they are right back on you before you can even say rez, let alone do it.

Mostly I have noticed this in Nightfall, in the Torment areas, but even all thru the different chapters they will do it too.

Also the fact that you have run away and they can still hit you from a mile away, (red dots are at least 2 arrgo bubbles behind you), without being rubberbanded back into them, so I don't think that is lag.

I died last night in Sorrows Furnace with that happening, no one near, yet I was taking damage and died.

This will get fixed just before the next chapter, to show they do listen

The AI is still not fixed (if its broken) and its incredibly annoying, and its not working how it said it should work in the manuel.

Its a known fact that a monster can't attack (see you) unless your little aggro bubble goes near him so he can....but somehow enemies are able to see you even when your VERY VERY far away from them...my question is why?


So I guess the question is: Is this horrible AI intended? If it is....wow.

Can't really say it's broken. Wouldn't you be totally pissed off when a group of wankers just killed a few of your buddies? I'd chase 'em down to kill them as well.

This may be true, but I think its taking realism a bit far. I play these games to enjoy myself. Having to redo 2 hours of fissure because one creature couldn't let go is not fun.

There was this annoying perm-agro when I was farming shak jarin's sword.

Aera: the perma-lock AI behaviour was fixed months ago in one of the earlier updates (it was admitted that it was a BUG), and reinstated again in the AI fix of October, 30. Please do not drag here false realism analogies. Do not start discussions whether it's a likely behaviour of real life foes.

We only just want to get a clear answer from Anet to the questions mentioned in the first message of this thread.

Yes, I've had similar problems but one stands out more vividly in my mind. I was playing in a 4-man trapper group in UW (Used to do 55/SS but ever since the AI "update" well....you know) and our entire group, except for me, got wiped by the terrorwebs (trapped and killed all but one, the surviver went around the traps) and preceded to chase me, all the way back to the starting point where the lost soul is and all areas adjacent to it, it would not break aggro even though I was at least 2 or 3 radar ranges away from it's spawn point.

This is also happening to me as well. My other team members start dying, so i decide to retreat and come back to resurrect them with my ritualist... but any attempt to come close to their bodies even if the monsters are not in range will cause them to chase you down, making it extremely difficult to actually resurrect someone without taking damage or dying yourself.

Well I see the AI doing the bodycamping thingy and chasing the party a lot. We split up and try to lure them from the spot away, while another player tries to ribirth for example. I actually find this more challenging and it strengthens the group feeling when succeeded.

Certain enemy groups seem to walk towards you when you pass by. It has always been a bit like that for me but now it seems they're more aggressive. At least a part of the AI feels that way. In certain areas of the game, you can be wiped out easely when not fully concentrated due to patrols moving in while you started a battle.

A few weeks ago I had 2 cleric margonites chasing me across the map but never saw that extreme following behaviour again. I think this is a small bug.

At last we have that part of the AI that makes creeps run from aoe. A lot of adjustment is needed but I'm doing ok I guess and I'm having some fun trying stuff out. I just don't know it yet if I like it or not. I didn't like the new update the first days that's for sure.

[[*ahem* Topic addressed a few weeks ago, at length. Please: Search engine!]]

As you can tell if you do that search, we've had this discussion before, and the concerns and opinions in this thread truly have been passed along to the design team. Your opinions are greatly valued, particularly from those of you who give clear examples in a neutral tone. However, player reports of what they perceive as errors, problems, changes, or improvable design will not always result in the dev team making a change to the game. So report != change in every instance, which I'm sure you can appreciate. If there's a bug, or if there is an unexpected/unintended change, then of course the designers are going to make changes.

I appreciate that some of you perceive problems. That you feel that things are not operating as they once did. That things are not operating as you would have them operate. And you could be right! I can understand what you're saying, and I confess that some of it sounds like unusual behavior to me. But with all due respect, you and I are not the experts, the designers are the experts. And honestly, I passed this along a few weeks ago and certain members of the design team did review player comments and concerns then, and they tested and had QA test this situation extensively. The last I heard, they did not feel that a bug exists and they see the behaviors involving mob attraction, monster range and persistence, etc., are as intended.

I will ask the designers about this again. But please, I ask everyone to strive to keep the tone positive and constructive, to provide practical examples with facts, like Pillie citing the mobs involved, like Navaros giving both location and monster class, like ericdanie's example of the "A/B cross party member aggroing" (which I agree seems more like an intended strategic option rather than a bug or design error). Those players' posts, and others like them, are very helpful, and the more professions, locations, mob types, and other details we can get, the better!

Once the designers have had a chance to take another look and then share info with me, I'll get back to you. But remember to keep an open mind about the fact that changes to gameplay are made with intent, that designs are amended, and that strategies do need to be adjusted, sometimes, as time goes on. (Remember the fracas with AOE changes back months ago? Those changes were intended, we players modified gameplay, and it worked. Dang I love close-in Firestorm or Meteor Shower for strategic "Get off my back, chump!" monster removal now! )

So, keep in mind that after an initial review this was not seen as an issue. But I know that we'll keep an open mind about whether the things you relay represent a bug or an intended change. I feel sure that the designers will take a second look for you. If things are not not working as intended, they will be fixed. If all is working as it should be, well, I'm confident we'll learn to work with it.

[[And please, using callouts in the thread subjects is a little "shoutish" and I'd ask that posters not do that. We will read and response, as we're able, but callouts are a little much. Thank you for that courtesy.]]

Hundreds of players have experienced this problematic situation, but because the devs can't duplicate it, it doesn't exist?

I've been chased all around kessex peak by the verata boss near galrath, while doing the quest to kill galrath. I had to let myself be killed to res the party, with quests that is a slight annoyance, but in missions it becomes a problem.

The greater then usual aggro circle when trying to get near a previous aggroed group certainly can be annoying if there are fallen comrades outside their normal aggro range, but now inside the enlarged aggro range. It keep being enlarged even if you go all the way to the other side of the area and then go back to that specific mob. if the bigger aggro circle is a feature then they should atleast put a timer on it.

Hi Gaile,
Thanks very much for the fast response I'm sorry about the thread title, I didn't intend it to sound like a call out or a challenge. I just wanted to make sure the thread didn't get lost in all the other posts without someone seeing it first. I did try a forum search but was unable to find the post you referred to (At least, not a topic where this particular problem with the AI was mentioned)

I feel that this change to the AI (if intentional) is having quite a negative impact on enjoyment of the game for many players. I have been in numerous teams of both guildies and PUGS where this has quite abruptly cut an evenings play short - leaving players angry and frustrated. For instance, my guild ventured into fissure a week ago, spent a few hours down there and were having a great time - until the non-breaking AI hunted our players down and prevented us ressing. My guild places a great deal of emphasis on coordinated pve, so I don't think this is a problem that can simply be fixed with a change of strategy (how can a single player on the run strategically not get killed by half the shadow army?). It seems to be pretty much "some of you die, game over" in the later areas of the game. Surely this was not the way guild wars was intended to be played, or else why have resurrection spells?

I understand that the developers have a lot on their plate at the moment with wintersday, and I am sure many players will feel better knowing that this issue is being reviewed. I know I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for a compromise between past and present

Thanks once again Gaile

Edit: Also, if the devs are having trouble duplicating this problem, there is an easy example. Simply head out of beacons perch on your own, turn left and continue till you see a group of avicara. The guile there will follow you to the ends of the earth regardless of what speed boosts you use

Speaking of bad AI movement...go try to play ToPK and get a party wipe. On the Courtyard area, it is almost impossible to resurrect if you are the last one alive. Seriously having the lvl 28 melee monsters following me from the 2 Wurm spawns on the opposite side of the map, all the way back to our original spawn cannot be the original intent. It literally makes it impossible, and that is not overexaggeration. It is not a good feeling to walk 5 steps forward and then see the entire group that killed your party on the other side of the map, start running at you.

She didn't say they couldn't duplicate it, just that it was working as intended. In other words, as ludicrous as it sounds, they meant for it to be this way.

I'd be shocked if it wasn't that the lack of any real response, contrary to above claims, made it clear the AI must be working "as intended" some time ago.

From the November 10, 2005 update:

Before that update, this exact behavior that we see from AI now was happening. Essentially, this update undid that update. May I ask why Anet changed their minds?

If you read, they have tested it and things seem to be "as intended". If you read further Gaile explains why the AOE changes were made. If you have groups following you forever just throw down an AOE. Although still doesn't help your situation when trying to rez.

So basically the way I read this is they wanted monsters to act like this. It is NOT a bug. Not every change = bug. And they provided a way break the aggro via AOE's.

EDIT: I'll admit I'm not found of the change, and as the post above me points out it is clearly a change of mind. It is very annoying to have monsters chase you from one portal of an instance to the other portal clear across the map.

Yep, my warrior always has an aoe attack, and so do monks, and rangers, and ritualists, and assassins, and paragons....get my point? The AoE comparison was terrible, because remember, in the last update they changed the AoE attacks to only make them run after half, so how does that help? Gaile didn't think that one through.

Just the point I was going to make. Lets face it, if i met any of you guys in game and said "im a WOH monk, but i also carry firestorm" half of you would laugh at me and the other half would probably flame me from ascalon to droknars (the long way) for being such an idiot ^_^

In "Gate of Pain" mission we reached the area with the Tortureweb Dryders and accidentally lured to many mobs in the center of the structure where one of the Emissary of Dhuum are located. After the 5th death i decided to run for it and try to save the mission from failure. But to my horror they kept following me.. i had to circle the building once before the mob decided to give up.

It took almost 20 minutes to get the party up again, which resulted in 2 deaths just after i resurrected them. The Emissary of Dhuum kept coming back as i came in the area of the corpses.. and their bodies were far away from where he was standing.

If this was intended then i guess we will have to adapt, but its causing more frustration than fun!

I have some problems with this aswell, in the Crystal desert. This time i was playing a wammo(i'm sorry), and the rest of my team had been wiped. I sprinted back to a safe(i thought) place. While sneaking my way back i saw some of the mobs i was fleeing from chasing me. I got wiped out aswell. Just adding my experience of this bug, because i am sure it is a bug.

Yes, yes it is. I'm going to to take some screen shots later of this . . proboly wont help though. Since 3 mobs chasing me untill I zone is how its suposta' be.

I was chased for ages yesterday buy a small group of icy imps (mineral springs) and I thought it was great (Was like a Benny Hill scene, had my guildies cheering me on as I ran)! This is EXACTLY how we play isn't it? Don't you chase enemys down until you kill them? Seems to me Anet want the AI to play as we do, which it does do for the most part. So what if it's harder? I prefer it myself.

Oh, and the imps finally got me.

Many examples, with detailed descriptions of the areas, classes, mobs etc., have been given in this most detailed thread:

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=428162

If the designers feel that "behaviors involving mob attraction, monster range and persistence, etc., are as intended", this is really, really puzzling.

Do chasing spellcasters (which do not have ANY speed boosts of their own) indeed behave as intended?
Do mursaat monks and avicara guiles that follow a player from one wormhole to the other indeed behave as intended?
Do melee enemies, that stop chasing the player and return to their usual patrol routes and mob areas, indeed behave as intended? Why don't they continue to chase the player together with monks, mesmers, and necros?
Does a necro boss that runs at a full speed to the resurrection shrine to wreck revenge on a killed and rezzed up party, from 3 radars away, indeed behave as intended?

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I find it very hard to believe that the current AI behaves as intended, because I cannot imagine the mind behind this design that made the enemy spellcasters's behaviour totally contrary to common sense.

Theres a Really bad resshrine where there is a rit and derv boss, took about 20 spawns to kill em. they dont run fast enough away. but i got a green afterwards

It's easy to prove. I just did a little experiment North of the Gate in Ascalon. I'd get the Charr to chase me, I'd kill one and run away. As I approached the group again, the remaining Charr would come after me even though I was nowhere near aggro. I recorded it, but unfortunately Fraps chose that moment to bug up on me so I don't have the evidence. However, as I said, it's easy to duplicate. But, I did get a screenshot. I don't know if you can tell because the picture isn't that clear, but the Charr are coming back after me and you can see on the radar screen how far away I am.

That'll be Barbarous Shore then.

I've had the undead in The Desolation exhibit this behaviour too.
What was weird then was that if I flagged my heroes and henchies to stay put, I could run past without them aggroing (and they were aggroing from WELL outside my radar when attempting this as a team).
Yet when I cancelled the flag in order to call my heroes and henchies to me, even though thay followed the same route I had ran, the enemy aggroed.
Working as intended, my arse.
Aggroing on heroes / henchmen, but not on players?
Nice feature lads

looks like ill be quitting sooner than intended. the game just isnt fun. and the devs are just plain stupid or stubborn for some reason. almost like a conspiracy. but for what? change the stupid AI back already and quit dickin around with everyone.

No, people. I was talking about two separate changes that aroused outcry. I was not connecting the two. Please read before you make an assumption. I at no time suggested that the AoE skills were intended to stop the reported "endless chasing." These two issues are in no way related. Please reread what I said and understand I was saying, "We have a situation now. We had one long ago, players complained, but you know, there were things about that unrelated change that were very positive. So, too, may the changes that are currently being discussed have aspects that re positive." The two are not connected; my comment made that clear. I think a few of you are so looking for a chance (even sometimes an excuse) to unleash a complaint, you're not even bothering to read before you start winding that rope into a noose.

Read above. NO connection between the two. Get it?

No one is ignoring this. We cannot make a fix when we cannot duplicate the situation, that's right! Otherwise, we'd be making changes day and night based on player reports that simply are not founded in fact! Think about it -- you have to be able to establish the situation before you can fix it. Please be patient and we will continue to investigate this, or we will make a statement that increases the understanding of why things are as they are. Thanks for holding up on this for a bit.