Who/what is to blame for PUG numbers dropping?

i thought heros could go into uw/fow?

According to Wiki the heroes are allowed in FoW and UW and DoA.

hehe i think u fail to mention that most people in pugs are much the same, i cant count the number of times ive seen people who PUG that think there gods gift to gw because there are a Warrior / monk or because they have an uber build that everyone else should resolve around rather than fitting in with the team.

Good PUGs are like Diamonds, rare and precious, when u find one u dont want to let go. Most PUGs fail through lack of comunication, lack of Teamwork, lack of thought, lack of maturity and/or lack of of pleasantrys.

People that dont PUG, are often people who know what they are doing, have a team plan and/or have become disillusioned due to the points above.

PUGing is unrealiable, its time consuming (just getting that party together), and its a gamble. on the other hand it is also fun to play with real people, to chat while u play, to share ideas but thats only when its not a bad PUG which most are.

A long long time ago when i first arrived at Thunderhead Keep, i tried to pug it, i suggested to every team(i think there was about 8 teams, possibly more) that we stay by the king, no one listened except one (but that team was suffering from 3 leavers), all the teams failed. Numerious hours of play for nothing. So i took a weeks break from gw, i came back and thought, ug! not more PUGing, so i decided to given the henchies a Chance. And wala, mission and bonus 1st time, It was a walk in the park. Ever since then I have always prefered henchies to PUGs, before then i used PUGs for all main missions, and used henchies only for Questing. I still PUG on occassion for fun or if i just feel like it, but the PUG unreliability is still very much present. Guildies and Friends are way more reliable for quests when you need a hand because they listen to what you have to say and vica versa.

So the reason behind Pugs dropping - PUGs being insanly unreliable.

i pug for fun and hench/hero if i accually want to get anywhere.

I PuGed my way through Prophecies and Factions. For the most part, it was a good experience. Maybe I was just lucky. However, in Nightfall, I played a Derv and, for some reason, Dervs had been blackballed the same way Sins had been in Factions ("GLF anything but Dervs" was pretty common). Even though I'm in a fairly large guild, no one in my guild was moving through the game as quickly as I was, so I Heroed and Henched my way through. Since I played 95% of the previous two chapters with real people, I was very surprised how easily I made it through NF with Heroes and Henchies. Because of that, I'll probably never PuG again. It'll be Heroes/Henchies and guildies from now on.

Honestly, it's a combination of all four of the above.

However, #4 is a common problem with every online game out there. The internet is a place where people are completely anonymous and, as a result, their is a lack of repercussions for acting like a complete arse.

Many say that "if you choose to PuG, you realize this." I say that "if you choose to play in a multiplayer game, you realize this."

The problem is that heroes and henchmen (#1 and #2 above) are meant to compensate for that problem. By appeasing those that simply don't want to deal with PuG's (and therefore play with other people), A-Net has really made the problem of #3 above (the ever expanding GW universe) WORSE for those that actually want to play a multiplayer PvE game.

Unfortunately, there is no realistic way to "fix" #3 and #4 above. However, #1 and #2 above ARE in the control of A-Net. The party search feature was meant to help the problem, but obviously it is currently seldom used and is more of a band-aid for a game that is increasingly moving towards a single-player PvE game.

Honestly some people (here at least) are way too "stuck up" for want of a better way of putting it. Do you guys play any other online games at all? Especially team based ones? GW players are no better or worse than any other public online game. Do you moan and complain about the same thing in those, that everyone sucks and you wish you could play with bots instead? *roll eyes*

Prophecies people teamed up. A LOT. Contrary to what some are saying here. People even teamed up for the side quests, not just the main missions. Then Factions came along and it seems it maybe wasn't so well liked, people ended up just not playing it so much, so that there were often empty outposts and hopping districts to scrounge up players for a team.

Nightfall of course, everyone is permanently in a party of Heroes and henchies so that was a further nail in the coffin.

Here's a thought, instead of bitching about random internet people sucking, have you lot even tried to team up with each other? Really, you guys are so great, I'm sure it won't be hard to add each other to friends list and team up for that perfect gaming experience... which also exists in every other team/party game online I'm sure...

I'm starting to think Anet made a mistake releasing it as online only. They should have gone the Diablo/NWN path, made it an offline single player game (with 7 heroes/henchies) and an online mode for co-op/pvp (without heroes). At least that way all the single players could remain offline and stop making it feel pointless to "lfg" these days.

Although NPCing your way through Nightfall was easier, the question you really have to ask yourself is - "Which was more fun: Playing with other people (even though it was harder) or playing a quick and easy single player game?"

What do you mean "IF"? Me and my friend clean FoW with Heroes and it I mean "clean". 2 ppl, 6 heroes...
Same with UW. We have not tried DoA yet, but I am sure ANet does not restrict you from doing that.
On the whole issue, I would rather play this as single player, solo with AI, beats the hell out of PUGS. At least AI will listen to you (mostly) and attack called targets, will stop when needed and would not aggro everything in sight.
Most aggravating is when people could not even read wiki for general strategy on specific mission and ignore you if you try to tell them where to go and what to do. This is a simple psychology. We are all think that we are superior to each other, and our opinion is THE one. All we need to learn is to listen and accept somebody else choice, as maybe, just maybe they read the damn walkthrough and know what they are doing. Most of the time this is not the case. My char is a protector of Elona and I was better off using Hero/Henches in pretty much every mission, actually in 16 out of 20, so that is what, 80%?

PUG haters are thin-skinned. I've had more good experiences than bad.

Whether you like PUG's or not, the main reason they've declined is heroes. Some people want to play with others no matter what. Some people want avoid playing with others no matter what. But there is a huge group in the middle that doesn't really care and will choose whichever is more likely to succeed. Before heroes, for the average player, beating missions was easier with PUG's than with hench. Now missions are easier to beat with hero + hench than with PUG's. So a lot less people use PUG's.

By the way it isn't just pick up groups which have been affected, I'm pretty sure guilds have taken a hit due to heroes too as from what I've gathered people are teaming up less within guilds too...

The Factions hench are far superior to the idiots in Prophecies, and better than most players. There isn't a single mission in Factions that can't be completed with just henchmen, even for average players. While Prophecies is a cakewalk for above average players, many have trouble with a number of missions. They need to group up in order to get through the game. With Nightfall and Heroes, there isn't a single mission that can't be beaten by below average players, and even average skill leveled players can Master most of them fairly easily. Anyone that has beaten either previous chapter has no need at all to ever PUG again, unless they choose to.

One only needs to look at all the threads about AFKers, and griefers in general to see why PUGs are ceasing to exist. Drop into LA, Kidash, or Kianeng and just read some of the crap in local chat. Who in their right mind would ever want to group with some of these idiots?

No question. Playing with real people is a lot more fun. I much prefer human interaction. Honestly, when people do those polls asking what chapter did you like the most, I always say Prophecies. The most fun I had in GW was in Prophecies playing with PuGs.

I know I wrapped up saying I'll be playing with Heroes/Henchies and guildies from now on, but after having said that, I'd like to make a semi-retraction. If I wanted to play a single player RPG, I'd play Dungeon Siege or something like that. One of the things that makes GW so much fun is the human interaction.

You make valid points, but it doesnt change the fact that the introduction of heroes has changed the game forever. Its good and bad at the same time. Sometimes I enjoy PvE with real people, but its now more difficult to find decent groups because most of the seasons players use heroes and henches. Why would want to torture my self with anything less than seasoned players. Usually the left overs are noobs, jerks, tools, fool....etc.
I mostly pvp now, but the pve is so easy now since you can set up awesome customized builds for heros. If you party with just one other seasoned player and you both use your heros the game is a breeze. It makes no sense to pug anymore unless I'm just lonely, and even then I prefer my own company over the company of idiots.

Seriously.

Heroes have really killed the enjoyment for me.I heroed/henched through the game three times.It's really beginning to bore the hell out of me that I can't obtain a regular human party.

Yes we did. Most people are looking for minimal efficiency.
The big problem is that you don't need half a PuG to be morons to fail. You need one moron only. One moron on 8 people is common. Even if you have 3 powergamers, 4 average players, and one moron, you moron-leroy, by not fulfilling his role (whether it would be to heal, tank, interrupt or whatever) will doom the entire party. One MM overextending and getting killed, turning all undead against you. One Healer that reveals itself as a Smiter, so you don't have enoug healing power. A useless ranger trapper that doesn't interrupt key opposite skills. A warrior aggroing everything in sight without waiting energy to recharge using Frenzy+Healign signet. A melee elementalist dying repeatedly.
And so on.
That's why people tend to avoid PuGs. Not every people in a PuG is a moron for sure, but only one is needed to fail.

never had the same kinds of problems in other games like EverQuest, DAOC, WoW

reason why?

- party leader could *kick* AFKers or idiots out of the group while adventuring

in Guild Wars,
you are stuck with the few idiots in your party unless you dump entire party

I'm glad someone pointed this quote out to me. Obviously being the OP, that must mean that I have a high opinion of myself?

If you mean I have a high opinion of myself because I dont go around treating others ingame like dirt. Then yes I do.

If you mean I have a high opinion of myself because Im better then those people in PUGs, who have elitist atittudes and love themselves, then yes I do.

So yes, compared to alot of people who I have had the pleasure to meet in PUGs, I would say I have a high opinion of myself. Because I dont make a habbit of treating others like dirt ingame. So compared to those who do, I do think im better then them, as should everyone.

If that means I then dont want to take part in a PUG where someone is blatenly being an ass, then fine, I wont. If that makes me stuck up, then ok.

I'm not going to apologise for having too much pride in myself to want to endure a PUG like that, just to progress in the game. The last I knew, we had a right to choose who to PUG with and who not to. But it seems alot of people are saying we should put up with it and endure it and stop winging.

If you were at your local pub, trying to enjoy the night with mates
and some moron kept ruining the night, would you just sit there and endure it? or tell them to shut up and/or go somewhere else?

That might be exagerating, but its a valid example. It shouldnt be any different ingame. If someone in a PUG is being a moron, you either kick them or leave the PUG and use heroes or another PUG instead.

If every PUG you try is being moronic, then its perfectly acceptable to use Heroes or henches instead. We shouldnt have to endure that kind of attitude ingame or in person.

Bingo! Being able to assign a party leader and kick afkers, idiots, or jerks out of the group would solve alot of problems. Then if you could go an extra step and replace the idiot with a Hero of the same class.

Double posted... due to the usual database errors.