Who/what is to blame for PUG numbers dropping?

Burst - I've heard this argument many, many times, and I want to clarify...

This is NOT about forcing people to PuG. When Prophecies came out, the option was there to play the game solo with henchmen, and many players did because they simply wanted to play in a single player environment.

However, these players were clearly a minority of GW players, as completing the game with henchmen was pretty difficult. As a result, many of the players that were relatively indifferent to PuGing or henching chose to PuG. They were not FORCED to PuG - they chose to do so when evaluating the options.

Now, Nightfall comes out. Those same players that were relatively indifferent to PuGing or hero/henching are faced with the same decision. And resoundingly, a large majority of them are utilizing heroes/henchmen.

So what does that tell you? In Prophecies, the focus was on multiplayer PvE, with the option of completing the story in single player mode.

In Nightfall, now the focus of the game is increasingly becoming a single player PvE game, with the potential option of completing it in multiplayer mode.

In either case, you have the choice as to which option you choose. It is those that are indifferent - who generally choose based on a cost-benefit analysis - that now are playing in single player mode, simply for the fact that A-Net has made it much easier to complete the campaigns with hero/henchmen.

That's the fallacy in your post that quoted above - it's absoultely true that a minority of the players want to PuG, but it's also a minority of the players that absolutely abhor PuGs and avoid them at any cost. The vast majority inbetween - those that are indifferent - are those that threads like this are geared towards.

I love pug groups, it makes the game more intersting. I dislike playing with henchies and hero's, it's freaking boring. Example: You just killed a boss and one party member capps and leave's and then 1 rage quit's. It's fun trying to beat the missions with a handicapp. With hero's and henchies it's all too robotic, there's no excitement.

I think a reason that hasn't been mentioned yet is the introduction of Master's timed missions. People always said they PUGed through Prophecies just fine, but once they hit Factions they could never get a good group. I think that part of the reason for this is that because of the timed missions, people need to be able to keep moving through and mission - a very steep learning curve. Due to that Many people got this elitist attitude about WHO was in their group and WTF KICK THE _____ WE CANT GET MASTERS WITH HIM because they don't kill fast enough/die too much/whatever. I've had missions where I'm the second or third in a PUG, the eighth member comes in and someone decides we need two monks. That eighth member decides 'kick the necro' because My class isn't 'good enough' to get master's. I know this happens with other professions as well. I feel that with timed missions, the pressure is on and that is a contributing factor to the decline of good PUGs.

[QUOTE]hi jet

they were forced to pug because it was not simply *pretty difficult* it was almost impossible.

remember way back when that the first person who managed to hench a later mission posted screenshots to prove they did the impossible?

my question to you is simply this and please give it a bit of thought.

if hero quality henchmen had been available from the very start dont you think that what is happening now with Nightfall wouldnt have started from day one?

Hello Loviatar! I personally love rationale discussions - it truly adds value to this forum and to those that are truly concerned about aspects of the game, even if we all don't agree.

To answer your question, I think that Guild Wars would be a completely different game. If heroes were introduced in Prophecies from the onset, I believe that most players would have simply viewed Guild Wars as a single-player PvE game.

What would that mean? PuG's, participating in missions with Guilds and people on your Friends lists, etc....they would be even rarer than they are today. Why? There are many people that began their mutliplayer PvE experience with Guild Wars. If they had no incentive as to even trying the multiplayer experience, they would simply have viewed Guild Wars as a single-player game with a multi-player PvP aspect.

To draw a parallel - think about how much time the hardcore PvE player plays in PvP. IMO, that would be very similar to how much time a single PvE player would have played in a PuG or any other multiplayer PvE group.

THAT is exactly what my concern is about the direction that Guild Wars is heading. The game is gravitating more and more towards a single player PvE experience. There are many that continue to play in the multiplayer PvE arena simply because they remember their positive multiplayer PvE experiences from Prophecies and, to a lesser extent, Factions. But, with the advantages that heroes/henchmen provide, you are seeing more and more of those former multiplayer PvErs choosing to move to the single player mode (some of which you can find examples for on this thread).

its because everyone is tired of america not having favor so they all hopped over to european severs.. atleast thats what i think has happend since when america has favor ToA only has 2-3 districts when not 2 months ago it'd have 8+ with first 3 full

also heros a great bonus.. i've yet to lose a misison while using heros... but PuGs are fun because its stepping into the unknown

Neither of us has enough information to make claims like this with any real certainty, but as long as we're indulging in this kind of (mostly baseless) discussion about motivations and causes, I'd like to point out a few problems.

When Prophecies came out, most players were new. This is important for two reasons. First, it means that most people don't have enough experience to hench the game. Second, it means that the playing field is more level for newbies and idiots. PuGing fails a great deal now because the good players are able to determine fairly easily that players X, Y, and Z on their team are clueless morons that should consider uninstalling the game. You couldn't perform this kind of evaluation if you were just starting the game yourself.

Aside from experience, one other thing that people didn't have when Prophecies first came out was huge friendlists and guild contacts. Most of the people who would never PuG still get their social gaming because of all the people they already know. There's no reason to PuG if you can assemble a full group out of just your flist, right?

So basically, as the game and playerbase mature, the game becomes less and less friendly to newbies and PuGs. Veterans continue to build skill and connections at their higher level of play, and their higher standards means that they are much less likely to be tolerant of incompetent players (whether they are idiots or just new to the game). Therefore, I don't think any comparison between the Prophecies environment and the Nightfall environment are really valid.

The way I read the situation you've described is this:
1) Players who can hench a mission, will.
2) Henching requires a certain degree of skill.
3) Heroes lowers the skill required.

This being the case, I don't see the decline of PuGs to be a bad thing. People who couldn't hench before because they weren't good enough to do it, now can. Furthermore, you should think about what your own argument implies: that heroes are better than players. So where should we place blame? Shouldn't it go on the shoulders of the average player, who can't even match a hero in effectiveness? I don't think anyone would argue that Heroes are remarkably intelligent or skilled - by all accounts, their AI is actually rather poor. So the fact that the group of 'indifferents' that you describe are choosing to hero/hench rather than PuG means that the average player can't even perform at the level of a poorly-written AI. Is it any wonder that PuGs are declining?

Another thing I'd like to point out is that the waves of anti-PuG sentiment started long before Nightfall came out, and it was not a minority opinion (at least within the forum community). All of the players I know henched Prophecies (and later, Factions) as soon as they were good enough to do it reliably. PuGing among my friends and I stopped as soon as we were any good at the game.

Anyway, this turned out to be a lot longer than I planned, but my point is this: you have to look at player motivations more carefully. Exactly why are more and more people choosing to hench rather than PuG? The answer that I've gotten is that PuGs flat-out suck, and heroes, if they have any effect at all, simply make it easier to avoid PuGs when you aren't good enough at the game to beat something with just henchmen. The heroes don't make much of a difference to veterans, because they've been able to hench the game since Prophecies.

If you want PuGing to happen more, improve the community, because that's where the actual problem is. The rest of the issues that have been raised might contribute to the existing problem, but they'd be irrelevant if people had any faith in their fellow players to begin with.

Here, Here. Well said. I totally agree. In any SNAFU, in my experience, there is a good chance that the common denominator is "YOU"! Perhaps that is a lesson that should be learnt when some of you hold up a mirror to yourself!

I have said some comments on other threads about this issue but I firmly believe that the decline in PUGs is socially driven and not because of game enhancements (eg. heroes etc).

Go to any major town and listen to the garbage being sprouted by other "players" (and I use that word very loosely) and you will understand why most seasoned and MATURE (emphasis deliberately added) players choose NOT to PUG any more.

Personally, I have PUGd my way through Prophecies not because I had to (ie. I have had constant success when I have decided to hench) but primarily because I play GW for the HUMAN interaction factor.

I ENJOY helping noobs (either directly during missions/quests) or by giving them weapons/items etc or by getting them to parts of the map which took me a lot longer to get to. Several people did this for me and I was also greatful. Several people were also abusive towards me as a noob and that was not very pleasant (yes, I have remebered these as well).

I ENJOY learning different aspects and skills from the game from other players (yes, I do acknowledge that I can continually learn something even though I consider myself a "seasoned" player...perhaps some others of you can get off your "holier than thou" soapboxes and recognise this fact as well!)

However, I do recognise and acknowledge that that is my personal choice. But, I fear that if the decline in PUGs is not arrested in some way soon that more and more people will drift from the game. After all, we play an online game for the human interaction factor, don't we? Anything else is a single player game that one can play out of a box! I can do that anytime but the GW experience is, IMO, a unique one that is not satisfied by other single player RPGs.

Some thoughts:

1. I oppose the kick idea as it would logically be abused. Eg. if I was leader on a mission that gave platinum + exp what is to stop me from using my group to get to the end of the mission and, just before finishing, kicking everyone out and thereby gain the "whole pot" for myself!

2. Perhaps, certain missions/quests can be made impossible to do with henches/heroes so that people are forced to PUG to complete them (eg. henches are rendered inactive in certain areas). Or, the mission/quest goal is not deemed complete unless human players are all involved. This would force people to PUG and may change some people's anti-PUG attitudes as well.

3. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I firmly believe that in-game players should seek to treat each other as they would expect to be treated!

I would like to see people kicked permanently out of the game more frequently that is occuring ATM. If that means that roaming in-game police are used by A-Net, then so be it! For example, the recent instance of in-game abuse evidenced on this forum by Gaile Gray with some other "players" (used loosely again) and their in-game comments was, IMHO, not handled strongly enough by A-Net. Those people in that exchange should have been banned and kicked!

We all sign up for the EULA and we should be expected to abide by it. Not selectively and periodically but constantly!

One warning and then OUT should be the way. People should be placed on probation by A-Net (ie. a "black list") for serious breaches (eg. racism, abuse, swearing, etc) and the next offence is fatal! Loss of playing PRIVILEGES should happen more often (yes, they are privileges and not RIGHTS as no-one has a RIGHT to play the game - even where one has bought the game IMHO). Reports by other players of such actions should be treated seriously by A-Net with the type of remedial action highlighted on the GW web site (yes, a "shame file" should be created).

More of these actions would, IMO, reduce the level of angst and aggro being shown by some players against other HUMAN players. After all, we don't break the law in real life primarily because we are afraid of the consequences of doing so (fines, loss of licence, jail, police action etc).

I dont know about you but my blocked list is becoming rather large ATM as it fills with complete idiots, morons, racists, abusers etc etc. The quicker these "players" are totally removed from the system the better the game will be.

I, for one, will continue to have faith in human nature and will continue to strive to PUG as I firmly believe that not all of the "eggs in the basket" are bad.

Perhaps some of you can also come down from your lofty perches and, by your good intentions and actions towards your fellow HUMAN players, change some of the in-game attitudes of your fellow players that seem to be permeating the game ATM.

Wonderful precis of "PUGs 101", Raven.

As they said in "Top Gun"...."I would be proud to be your wingman anytime!"

Hope to find you in Tyria sometime and maybe we can party together!

More people with your attitudes in PUGs (and elsewhere in the game world, for that matter) would increase my in-game enjoyment immeasurably.

Keep up delivering the message!

Ok some of you are getting the wrong impression that people who don't like PUGS are elitist and simply feel that everyone is a "noob." It's the bad attitudes of a lot of random people that I don't like, not so much their playing ability.

But when you combine a crappy immature attitude with a crappy playing ability, then it's just intolerable. Sure, there are plenty of good people with great and friendly attitudes, but sometimes I just want to play the game without the frustration of PUGs and trying to screen out the undesireables.

Here's some other reasons why PUGs (and any socializing which is a major factor in PUGGING) arent doing well in GW.

1. Instances make it impossible to meet other people while exploring, so there's no firsthand observation of a player's attitude and playstyle. This limits a lot of socializing and so it decreases the chance of wanting to PUG.

2. Once you go into an instance with specific people, you're stuck with them. You can't replace them with another person if they leave or quit.

3. Outposts are horrible places to socialize. It's all spam or inane banter. You can't really talk to another person to get to know them so you'd want to PUG with them.

4. No GMs or punishment for bad social behaviour. People can act like little shiites with no risk of punishment.

You're absolutely right on #1 through #3 above. But what does #3 mean? That those players with an average to above-average level of skill are now choosing to hero/hench rather than PuG. What does that do? Lowers the quality of PuGs. It's a vicious circle.

I also want to dispel the myth that heroes are better than the average player. The appeal of heroes is that you can CONTROL heroes, when you cannot CONTROL other players. You can set their skill bars, make them do exactly what you want them to do, and, if things don't go well, you can abandon them and restart. Although players have many complaints about PuGs, the root of the vast majority of their complaints is that they simply cannot control what the other players do. Unfortunately, that is an element of any multiplayer game, as pointed out by The Admins Bane earlier.

I've seen the phrase "I don't see the decline of PuGs to be a bad thing" way too many times, and it personally gives me a shudder. PuGs are a very good barometer as to the health of the multiplayer PvE community. In short, the more people you see out there actively attempting to play with other people, the more dynamic the multiplayer PvE experience is. Going into mission towns and seeing very few people attempting to group with others - that is a very good sign that the multiplayer PvE aspect (and community) is dying. And that, IMO, cannot be good for an online game like Guild Wars.

@ozsparrow: the second half of your post is misguided and self-contradictory. For instance, you claim that you understand that your enjoyment of the multiplayer aspect of the game is a personal choice, and then in item #2 you suggest that all players be forced to multiplayer. If you're forcing your style of play on other people, that's no longer a personal choice, is it?

Your suggestion of in-game enforcement produces its own problems. What is considered acceptable behavior? Do we all have to be polite to each other? Are we going to have good-samaritan laws where all players are required to help other players? People are all going to have differing opinions on what is considered good manners or acceptable behavior, so it's inappropriate to start banning people for supposedly 'poor' social behavior. You'll notice it's not against the law to be rude or callous. Manners are taught in the home, and that's how it should stay.

If they had introduces Heros in Prophecies, GW would not have been a big hit.

@Burst, To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.

I think that covers Rude and Callous...

The point of control is one I've always agreed with, but I also don't think that Hero > PuG is a myth. The most obvious evidence is in the results: PuG groups fail more than hero groups do. While complaints about control are certainly prevelant, you'll notice that most hero/hench advocates believe that heroes are straight-up more effective than humans because they're more likely to complete a mission successfully. If success rate isn't an indicator of superior effectiveness, I'm not sure what is.

The issue of control does, however, shift the argument from heroes vs. PuGs to veterans vs. scrubs, and illustrates a point that I have argued all along: many players are unhappy playing with people of a skill level and mentality significantly different from their own. Heroes perform as well as your ability to control them, and have no mentality, so they are obviously compatible with everyone that doesn't expect to have a conversation with them.

Well, I can rephrase it if you wish. In context, my statement meant that I'm glad more people are able to play the way they want to play (ie. not PuG).

The problem here isn't that more people are hero/henching, but that more people *want* to hero/hench. PuGs are not a good barometer on their own, because the mere availability of PuGs speaks nothing to the reasons as to why you are seeing the numbers you are. Without those reasons, can you really hope to draw any accurate conclusions or make any useful suggestions?

I have always had the firmly-held belief that the problem lies in the community itself. While there are always exceptions (the people I eventually added to my flist), the people I've met in GW are not people I would like to play the game, or even have a simple conversation, with.

No, it really doesn't. For instance, I don't have to thank anyone for anything. That's rude, but it's not illegal or ban-worthy. I can leave in the middle of a mission for any reason, including ones like "these noobs aren't worth my time", which many people would consider callous, but again, is not illegal or ban-worthy.

The statement you made is open-ended, and you can interpret it as literally as you want, but the more literal you take it, the more absurd it becomes. For instance, playing with incompetent morons causes me distress, and anyone who messages me that isn't on my flist is giving me unwanted attention. I demand that those players be banned. Do you think that's reasonable?

I would generally agree. I think that most people would prefer to go with other people, not AI (personally I prefer AI more because I like to goof off). I think that hench/hero has little to do with it, I personally think that those that have left PUG's would have left GW if the AI option wasn't there. Or at the least would take one character through the game (or until the first major choke point) and then drop it until the next chapter. I think that the addition of the AI increases the overall population.

That's my feelings on the issue. Missions I've always henched as the way I play tends to irritate other humans (note the above: goof off, I'm not oriented towards bonus and such). I've done quests in the early days and had a decent time but since about 6 months or so into Porphecies it crossed the line of non-enjoyment to me.

I would also add two other things. One is that quite a few classes and builds are really frowned upon. If you enjoy those things it can be a nightmare with trying to PUG. A large part of my enjoyment is playing with builds and one can not do that when going with PUGs. Secondly too many people are not willing to learn. I know I kept getting one individual in Unwaking Waters who would never take ranged damage and wouldn't run away from Kuunavang to fight the afflicted that spawned - though he was nice, polite, and generally a decent person as far as I can tell (a rarity now days it seems). That's not a big deal to me (I find it more amusing than anything - with no lasting death penalty I don't really care) but to many it is.

We nearly have that in the two party missions. For many (myself being one) it has *really* turned me off. Rage quitting, verbal abuse, incompetence to the point I suspect they were intentionally damaging the mission, and just general suckiness shows me I *really* hate them much more now than when I quit joining them at all. Not to mention if you happen to play one of the unwanted classes you pretty much hit a block right then and there.

If you *really* wanted to do this better to have it like random arenas and randomly make the group. However, I suspect it will make some of the most hated missions in the game (much as the two party missions were, though some also really liked them).

This would solve most of it and is the root problem. Until that is fixed trying to force PUG's (either through difficulty or not allowing AI) will only make the situation worse.

I can not say I'm up on a high horse, I do not think I am that great a player. I just do not like the general abuse inherent in the game (and I do not think it is any worse in GW than any other online game, being able to hench is why I play this one over the others - I can choose what level of "multi-player" I want).

Let me remind you that diamonds are currently useless in Guild Wars

I highly doubt that. Henchmen have always been there and people did use them. They always had. However the use increased when the degeneration of PuGs increased. When Nightfall came along, the damage was already done. Hero system only allowed more control over Henchmen.

What ANET could do to remedy the situation is to make Missions less stressful and more creative. Also they could change PvE gameplay to make it more rewarding to group with people than the Henchmen. And finally to teach new players more about the game than a little skimpy tutorial at the beginning. They could also introduce a difficulty system to let new people play at varying paces so that they are not overwhelmed.

But more than anything, the attitudes of players is the only thing that will be most effective at getting people to PuG again. I don't know how many times I've went into cities and see people arguing and swearing all over the place. It just makes you want to turn off chat and treat them like random NPCs.

No, It's not reasonable. You don't have to thank anyone for anything, but then, Gaile said something like, (I'm paraphrasing.) You play Anets game by Anets rules. You do not have the right to freedom of speach in guildwars, because, well, It's anets jurisdiction.

And, That isn't my statement, that's Anets. It's in the code of conduct we all agreed to.

"You may not use sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, or racially or ethnically offensive language."

I believe calling people "Noobs" is defamatory.

BUT, We really shouldn't be arguing about this because,

"While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players."

I agree with you. I've left groups because they were incompetent noobs. But if you come online, act like the other people are human. Rude and Callous comments can very well seem hateful to people, and CAN lead to banning.

~ReT~

I chalk it up to laziness. Sometimes, by the time you manage to build yourself and organized pug, you could have taken heroes and henchies and finished the mission. And then there's the gambling factor where you may or may not end up with a good pug. 70% of the time I've usually ended up with at least 1-2 bad players and usually that's all it takes to scrap the mission. Guess I'm just unlucky with pugs. With henchies and heroes, at least you get a consistant performance from them =b

Like I said, those statements are very open-ended, and you can take them as literally as you want. Can Anet ban you for not saying thanks? Probably. Will they? Very unlikely. Anet is free to ban me for being rude or callous if they want, I'll just take my business to some other MMO. They haven't yet, and I doubt they ever will, which is why I'm still more than happy to hand them my money every 6 months. There just isn't any game in existence that's good enough to make me put up with that kind of heavy-handed bullshit.

The bottom line is that, regardless of what's written in their EULA, if they start acting unreasonably they will lose business. And really, they can't implement their policy as literally as you are suggesting simply because it would require them to ban all of their customers. When you do something that someone else doesn't like, you are causing them distress, so I'm sure everyone has caused some other player distress at some point, meaning we are all eligible for bans. The entire line of thought is absurd - you know it, I know it, and Anet knows it. End of discussion.

And this is all off-topic anyway.

Lol THK is good fun even with mending wammos and firestorm ele's.

I don't see the decline of PUGs as a bad thing. I've PUGged about five times in the course of playing GW, total. It's not fun, and if I were forced to do it in this game it'd be collecting dust on a shelf (or never have been purchased to begin with) rather than one of my favorite games. PUGs are not a good indicator of the health of the game for that simple reason, actually. This is that rare MMO that one really can just play with friends or alone. It doesn't force MP with strangers down your throat, and that's why a lot of us are playing it. I foresee continuing to play and enjoy the game unless Anet does one of two things:

1) Affects a change that forces me to play with others when I don't wish to. Heroes actually brought me back to the game after a long absence because they made solo and small group high level play a viable option.

2) Affects a change that results in PvE being about account development instead of character development (as so many of the PvP community seem to want).

Until then I, and my small circle of friends, will actively be playing the game. We'll be doing missions, we'll be doing quests, and you won't hear a peep out of us in local chat I can all but guarantee. To put it in the shortest possible terms: Just because people aren't playing with you doesn't mean they aren't playing.

i used my heroes and hench all the way through nightfall. out of all the mission the only ones i used real people on and passed were the 2 final missions. i had tried with pugs in earlier mission but they lost everytime. 5 attempts at killing varesh with pugs all failed. first try with heores and hench = win

The biggest cause of dwindling PUGs is the fact that a great percentage of the GW community cannot ascertain the difference between intelligence and obedience.

The most popular reason as to why people say the don't PUG is that "Hero/Hench A.I. is better than human intelligence."

That is a farce. A great number of people in the GW community get upset in PUGs because one or two people in the group does not follow each and every order barked out. These causes resentment and tensions on both ends, until people drop or get kicked or, my favorite, a childish name calling, I'm better than you spat ensues and the group just disbands.
It's not heroes, it's not hench, and it’s not even the spreading of the community over three chapters. It's the attitude of the community and the misnomer that a computer program is smarter than an actual person.

Would you call a random R/E who joins your group and only uses Flare a "lack of intelligence" or "lack of obedience?"

I beg to differ. There are many times that even with a set target, my heroes won't attack it and we still manage to fair better than a lot of PUG groups.

The program is smarter than some people. Smarter or not, the AI can play their bars a lot better than some people can. A lot of people don't seem to know their role, they don't seem to understand energy management, they don't seem to understand what are garbage skills.

At least with heroes, I know I don't have to worry that my healing monk has heal other, heal breeze and heal party and does nothing but spam them all (there's a reason I never, ever, EVER use Mhenlo) and then ping that their energy is 3 of 38.

Or that my warrior is constantly throwing mending on himself for a wondrous 2 health regen just to get it shattered repeatedly.

Or that my ele isn't constantly casting firestorm and breath of fire.

Or that my rit isn't screaming "OMFG YOU NEED TO HOLD THEM BACK THEY'RE KILLING MY SPIRITS TOO FAST" when union and displacement die almost before they're put up.

Or look at the male genitalia being repeatedly drawn on my minimap.

Or have my chat box filled with "My health is ___ of ___" and "My energy is ___ of ___" and "I'm wielding something that nobody else cares about".

Success rate of Gate of Madness with PUGs: 1/6
Success rate of Gate of Madness with friends/heroes/hench: 7/8

A recent attempt at Thunderhead with PUGS: 0/4
Got tired of failing, took one other person, had 6 heroes, finished on our first attempt.

Do I need to go on?

I play this game to enjoy myself. I have absolutely no desire to deal with any of the things I've listed above, nor do I have the desire to sit in an outpost for 30 minutes looking for a group, setting up a group, and taking longer than any hero/hench group would have to complete a task.

I can add heroes and henchmen to my party, or take a couple of friends with heroes, and we know that we will do fine because we know what skills do, what skills are good, how to use them and what our jobs are. All this in a matter of a couple of minutes and we do what we need to do faster and more efficiently than most of the PUG groups I could have gotten.

Guild groups > hench/heroes >>>> PuGs.

I seem to post this a lot. It's true, though. >_>

LOL,

THK itself is easy ... the pug idea ranks right up there on my list of things to do with .. using my tongue to stop a fan with metal blades

Yup. This notion that because people aren't looking for PuG's they either aren't playing or are only playing solo is just silly. I know that of the hundreds of hours I've logged on GW probably 75% or more has been playing with friends and guildies.

no perhaps about it

other *team* online games do allow you to boot problem people out of your group

eliminates griefers and idiots

So so true. Apparently a Necro can ONLY be a minion master, didn't you know? I was taking my Necro through Kodonur Crossroads. 95% of the time I play curses since Minions are a pain in the arse. When I didn't start raising minions a comedy discussion occured between me and the monk:

Monk: "ZOMG why are you not making minions?"
Me: "I never said I was a Minion Master. I'm playing Curses"
Monk: "But you're not taking advantage of what Necros are good at"
Me: "So the only line of magic is Death then huh? What about Blood and Curses?"
Monk: "But your wasting your potential if you don't be a MM"
Me: "mmhmmm"
Monk: "It's like a Monk not being healing"

...You know where this is going, don't you?....

Later on I was wondering why people were dying so fast. Turns out Tahlkora was our only healer as I happily spammed "<Monk> is using Signet of Mystic Wrath!", "<Monk> is using Bane Signet!", "<Monk> is using Kirin's Wrath!"...

Me: "Wasting potential eh?"

This is the usual reason I for one prefer to play with hench because, humourous as I find the whole situation, when I'm trying to get through a mission...particularly a god-awful annoying one like Kodonur Crossroads...I really don't want morons slowing me down. Don't get me wrong, I would dearly love to be able to play in good PuGs but there are precious few around. One place in Elona where there certainly used to be good PuGs is in the Realm of Torment, particularly in the mission with Shiro and Lich. I got a lot of characters through the game pretty quick and at that point in the game generally good players who could find a way past the "hard" missions such as Rilhon Refuge, The Grand Court of Sebelkeh and The Ruins of Morah were around.

One mission I do like PuGging is THK. I dunno why but I love this mission.

So what you're saying is a good PuG is like an ecto?

I only play with heroes/hench and guild mates/friends, I pug if I feel like it (meaning if I am desperate) and that rarely happens nowadays. Heroes are a great addition for me.

The reasons why I like using heroes/hench a lot more than pugs is because I find them more reliable and trust what they are doing (same with guild mates and friends). When playing with pugs it takes a long time to find/gather a group (even when pugs are looking for a specific class most of the time) and I really do not know the intent of each individual and not know how they will react in the group during missions, they are a bunch of people I have never met before (hence the term pug). Therefore, I do not want to risk it when joining in pugs. I like to progress through the game at my own pace without being delayed.

Do not get me wrong, I know that not all pugs are bad. Even though I had my fair share of bad groups, I had a decent share of good pugs too. The reasons I use to play in pick up groups before long ago is because I did not know how to use henchmen that well and their AI was terrible back then, and guild mates were not available sometimes. But thank goodness the henchmen's AI got improved overtime and I had more success than real players.

When playing with heroes/hench only most of the time rather than pugging, I am not being an elitist or antisocial...that is just ridiculous. I do not see myself as the greatest player ever, I am pretty average. I do socialize with people even though I am pretty quiet and shy, I do socialize with my guild mates (when I am not afk ) and like meeting with people only when I am hanging out in towns and outposts when I am tired of killings mobs. Therefore, saying a person who only plays with heroes/hench is antisocial and does not like mmo social side is completely false.

If I like playing with only heroes/hench, it is only because I prefer them a lot more than pugs and it is my choice. Do not condemn me for my preference and my choosing. We have always had that option. Do not get angry at someone for not playing with anyone else or not. If you want to pug then that is great, find others who want to do the same as well and you will probably have a good time too, which is great. Just quit trying to force people to pug when they do not want to, please. I really do not like being dictated to how I play. If Anet forced everyone to pug and banned from using heroes/hench/guildies/friends, a lot of people will be turned off by it. It is all a matter preference and respect the person's choosing.

I might be repeating what others have said, but some people are not getting that all of us has the freedom of how we want to play.

Personally i find it unaccaptable that players join a group that have a clearly defined goal and decide to cooperate untill their own agenda is met. Capping elites is one of them, but infusion is another which induce these kind of nasty situations. If people disconnect, or leave due real life neccesities, then im fine with that.

I never leave untill it becomes really impossible to my opinion, still i will discuss that with people still around. Lamers and people with their own agenda should be kicked or marked if possible, right in the mission. With a repurtation to loose u will be carefull when joining pugs. Even so what is missing usually in PUGS is that they dont have synergy. In your own heroway u will have synergizing characters. If you want to have that in a PUG u need to discuss in order to have at least an equivalent, otherwise u end up with people using shadow of fear and spitefull spirit at the same time, that is counterproductive, as well as well using necroes and minionmasters. PUGS require discussion, but often people are too much in a hurry. I like pugging, but it should be either on a core of synergizing heroes/players, or there should be discussion in order to make the pug effective. I'm willing to change my build for that or for the purpose of beating the mission, and also expect that from others. You can't beat all missions using arcane echo spitefull spirit, sometimes its good to take other, more effective skills for that purpose

Lol are u kidding Henching was always easy (with the exception of the titan missions after defend droks due to the very low lvl Heros and a couple of the Sf missions) i managed to do THK mission and bonus before they even did the upgrade to make Henchies infused there(see previous mentioned story earlier in thread for details. )

Id rather play with friends or trusted Guildies than anything, but if there not available id far rather use Heros/Henchies than PUG, although i still PUG on occassion if i have plenty of time and arnt really bothered about mission completion or such like.


Well almost, a Good PUG is like 'The Ecto', Very rare, to the point where only 1 can exist at the same time throught the gw world hence why u keep it for as long as as u can.

Well dont worry beaver similar thigns happen to the rest of us, such as when i once PUGed Thirsty river, to help a friend out who likes to PUG, the party leader decided to make the team consist of him (a wammo, a ranger, another wammo, a necro (my friend) and me (as a monk). I repeatly told them i was set as a protector and that we either needed Alesia or another human monk in the party to heal since i wasnt able to heal very much. the words fell on def ears so i equip a couple of protector skills that give some healing. He soon allows a lvl 13 Fire ele to join the team and we enter the mission without being asked if ready, then after a few mins later where all dead after i eventually run out of energy from desperatly trying to keep everyone alive.

The party leader then says: "Wtf are u doing?, why arnt u healing?" to which he is told, "I told u i was a protector, and i cant heal you when im out of energy." he then says " Stupid monk, ur a noob"(clearly not having had noticed the Protector of Tryia Title hanging under my name in town) and leaves, the other Warrior follows suit. So the rest of us try the mission again with Alesia and EvE instead of them and what do u know, one mission and bonus in the bag for my friend.

@ Sophitia Leafblade: you could have switched to a healer build or a hybrid, the mission would have been possible like that. Depending on the team the mission can be completed with only one monk. I do not want to offend you or whatsover, but u could be a bit more flexible in order to meet the parties needs (amongst which your friend). I don't say the behaviort of the leader is good, its flatout rude, and cause of many people hating pugs. But the take home message here is adapt to the situation.

before Drakes were nerfed,
I used to dread mission 7, Gates of Kryta, whenever party leader accepted anyone over level 15

people would join *mission* PUGs and then leave the group after Drakes were killed (thats all they cared about)

happened far too often

this was despite claiming they would stay for entire mission ...

no offence taken

Yes i could have changed i dont deny that, (ignoring the fact i suck at healing while being a reasonably good protector and that at the time i only had 1 set of armour and that included a sup protection rune) but was i ever asked to change? or was i given the change to change my setup? answer = no to both.

The point of the story is : Instead they just assume ur one type in that case a healer and ignore everything u say and then blame u when things dont go as they planned.

What I see here is a lot of people who are quite selfish -- they won;t play MM because they don't like to, or they insist on being a prot when a healer is more appropriate. Such selfish attitudes just prove my earlier point: If all the PuGs you are in "suck", then maybe the common denominator -- *YOU* -- is the problem.

PuGs are about *TEAMWORK*, and being willing to adjust your gameplay to the needs of the group.

When I play my necro, I prefer a Curses build -- but honestly, I'd be a complete jerk if I insisted on going Curses at Vizunah Square (for example). MM is sometime more appropriate, even if it isn't my favorite Necro build.

I *always* ping my build for groups, so there are no surprises in-mission. I find it a common courtesy, so people know what to expect. If they don't like ym build, and I can't agree to what they want, I can leave and find another group.

The worst aspect of PuGs is arrogance -- something all too evident in this thread. Frankly, if you can't get over yourself, PLEASE use heroes and henches. Teamwork is a two-way street.

In a word? Yes. How can I say that? What if that random R/E has been doing that his/her entire time of playing, effectively.
You are disagreeing with his/her method, when it has worked for them. You tell them to change it and they wont. That is disobedience and not a lack of intelligence. Furthermore, there are instances where people purposely play junk builds, for the sole purposes of sabotaging a PUG.

You have not proven, in your words, that the A.I. is more intelligent than a human player. You can't, because the A.I. is not. Some people are jerks, but not all. You cannot let the actions of a few taint the entire community.

Some of your examples are of either people who are really new and are learning the game or are just being outright jerks and doing things just to annoy others.

The A.I. doesn't play their bars better than a human - just ask Master of Whispers, who loves to BiP Koss, really, is that smart?

Again, the intonation of your post points to the fact that you do not agree with the skills being brought and their use. Not a lack of intelligence, but a lack of doing what you say and think is right. This basically boils down to a lack of obedience.

Wow!! I disagree 100%. I play a Blood Necro. If I join a PUG I let them know I'm a Blood Necro. You say that I have to be a minion master and you're calling me selfish?

My armor and runes are geared towards blood and I'm extremely familiar and comfortable with the blood skills. I have a few mm skills in my skill bank but I rarely use them and I'm not very good at controlling minions. Sure, I can switch my build to mm because you insist, but I wouldn't call myself a minion master, more like a minion apprentice. I'm just not very good at that build. I'm much more effective with my blood build.

I don't have a problem with a leader politely asking me to change my build to mm, but if I tell him that I'm not a very good mm player then don't tell me that I have to be. If the leader feels that a mm is essential to the mission then kick me and go find one.