Who/what is to blame for PUG numbers dropping?

So say ur relativly new to gw and ur used to using blood magic and uve never had any experience with MMing, u should instant change to MM even though you would play better as a Blood Necro? And you call that teamwork! no teamwork is not changing other people but enchancing them and bouncing off them.

Eg an experienced Blood Necro seeing the team and not changing attibute (since then he would play terribly) but instead just changing a couple of skills to help the team like adding in blood is Power or a Ranger adding in Winter because he 3 members of the team have additional defense Vs Ice. Thats team work.

Forcing someone to play something they are uncomfortable with isnt teamwork its a dictatorship.

Sure u can ask people to change but u should assume or force them to play a particular style. If a monk really wants to smite let him, just ask him nicly if he can add a couple of heals in too even if they are only Divine based ones. And take other steps to ensure things go ok, like getting another monk or making everyone take self heals etc. And if he was in your last party space say sorry we were deperatly looking for a healer and wish him Gl with the mission and then find someone else to take his place who is playing the role u want.

I blame improved Henchmen AI and Heros. It's a vicious cycle if I've ever seen one.

No pugs in the outpost...take heros and hench...more people take heros and hench...no pugs in the outpost.

@ EXPLODEMYHEART: Although I usually favour Heros over Humans I would not go so far as to say they are always better. A lot of human builds (which I'm willing to bet people just put on their heroes without thinking) just don't work. For example, Master of Whispers just refuses to cast Suffering BEFORE Feast of Corruption. He always uses FoC first. Oh, you were talking about Mending wammos. Ever tried giving Goren Mending? I did, once. He puts it on straight away. When it gets stripped he stops mid-fight to put it back on. He's a W/P now and much better off for it. I guess it's just the wammo mentality, AI or Human, "Keep mending up at all costs"

Some things, however, are fantastic on a Hero. I tried using Jagged Bones and for the life of me I can't use that skill effectively. Give it to Olias and he's a Wizard with it! He can keep minions up indefinitely with it

QFT. It's all well and good saying "Can you play as ..... for this mission?" but if you don't have the skills how are you supposed to? Answer is usually a swift kick from the group leader since you are deemed "useless". As happened to me yesterday in the Ruins of Morah - Dervishes just seem to be considered "useless" in there. I was dreading taking my Dervish into that mission because when I have gone through with my last 6 characters there have been scores of Dervishes wanting to get in. I just went in with Heroes and Hench with the build I wanted and PWND the joint first time in under 7 minutes.

Sometimes PUGs can surprise you as well. My ranger was in Boreas Seabed last weekend to do the mission. She hadn't passed the mission yet after several attempts with PUGs.

Well, I saw a group spamming for more people and I joined. The mix was 3 Assassins, 3 Warriors, 1 Ranger (me) and a lone Monk. YIKES!

We started the mission and headed for the 1st group of baddies. 5 of my teammates died right off the bat. Somehow we managed to kill all the bad guys, revive the casualities and move on.

Next comes the 2nd group. This time only 4 people died (including me, even though I survived the first group). At this point I'm already planning my exit strategy for when we warp back to town. Again we're revived and finish them off.

Onto the 3rd group. (For those of you not familiar with this mission, the 3rd grp is the worst and usually finishes off most bad/average pugs). 6 or 7 of us die this time and most of the group are sending good natured gripes by this time. "Geez, we suck!", "I told ya 3 sins would be our downfall", "We need another Monk!", etc. The lone survivor (not the monk and not me) miraculously killed Argo and we enter the cutscene.

At this point things got better. The monk grabs the spear and we head down to the seashore. We start killing Kraken Spawns and any other fish that dare to cross our path and finally the Big Bad Boss appears. We throw everything we have (not much, obviously) at Fishface and kill him.

Up pops that beautiful symbol for Masters! My jaw about hit the floor.

This just proves that you shouldn't judge a pug prematurely.

"Teamwork" is the ability to work with other people and coordinate. If I go in and say "I only do Blood Magic", I'm not being very cooperative, am I? And if someone asks me to do something I'm not good at (I suck as a BiP, for example), I say so and offer to leave so they can find someone else.

No, I don't roll over and do whatever the group demands -- for example, when a group asked me to run MM in Dasha Vestibule, I politely said it wouldn't work because there would be no corpses in many places. The group debated, and I went as an SS. Had they insisted on MM or been rude, I'd have left and found another group.

*That* is teamwork.

I have to mostly agree with the OP. I feel that Guild Wars has a "social" problem. It lacks something that other games have in regard to social interaction.

In many ways, Guild Wars is more about the "game" and less about the player.

Unless you routinely play with a very close knit guild or real life friends, Guild Wars has little to offer in terms of multi-player experience.

Building acquaintances from the ebb and flow of an ephemeral game experience spread too thin makes the building of society nigh impossible.

The odds are very much against having a "fruitful" chance contact with another player in order to found an in-game relationship.

(I am comparing my experience in GW to games like: DAoC, Horizons, WoW and AC2.)

The social fabric of the game needs work.

Players alone can't weave that fabric within the current context of the game world because the very game design is set against it.

One could say that the obvious solution is to make sure you belong to a "close knit" guild...but that fortunate situation doesn't happen in a predictable and reliable frequency. Relationships have to be built from scratch and do not erupt fully formed from the game experience. The organic nature of social relationships requires fertile ground from which to grow.

Pre-Searing (and, yes, other chapter starter areas) is still one of the most popular spots in the game because it has some of what players desire in regards to social settings that can't be found in the rest of the game world:a certain continuity.



I feel that ANet needs to address the "social" deficiencies in Guild Wars.

Exactly uve just backed up my point. you ask! u dont demand others to play the way u want them to, u listen to what people say and adapt accordingly (both ways, the team listens to u and u listen to the team)

You are joking right?

Your suggesting we remove all free-will from the game and just do exactly as we're told. Forget the fun of experimenting with builds, forget the fun of actually playing in a PUG, just do as your told.

Thats got to be the most hypercritial statement I have ever seen on this website. Your claiming others are selfish just because we dont want to be dictated too in a PUG, yet your expecting us to drop everything and do exactly as we're told.

Why should all Necros be MM? why should all monks be healer? why should all ele's be nukers? why should all warriors be tanks?

You have just proven my entire point about the atittudes in PUGs. I expect your one of these individuals who will kick someone from a PUG if they dont follow the exact skill set you ask them too.

Why bother playing in a PUG if your going to be treat like a heroe and forced to use certain skills? why even bother using a PUG at all, if you have no intention of being socialable, and you just want to control people like heroes?

PUGs are meant to be sociable and fun, exciting and experimental.

If all you get once you join one is "right, you necro, your an MM. You mon, your healing. You ele, your nuking. Your tanking warrior. Anyone doesnt like this, can leave!!"

It has nothing to do with being selfish and not doing as your told and thinking of the PUG as a whole. For god sake, its a flaming game. It isnt a life or death situation if your PUG doesnt complete something.

Your statement suggests that if we dont use set builds or set skills, a PUG simply cannot cope. Which is rubbish. Your also suggesting we use generic builds, which is something most people complain about and call you a noob for doing.

There is such a thing as free-will and PUGs take that away when people like you are involved.

Hmm....umm....how about "no". If someone does not like playing MM and would rather play Curses they should be able to play Curses...not feel they HAVE to spend money on Death Magic just so when the wammo demands an MM they can play one. If I start off playing as one sub-type of a profession that is because I ENJOY playing as that. I play the game for fun. How is it fun if, say, every mission I was made to be MM rather than curses? Oh, You say "*you* -- is the problem" well....it's really odd how I could play as Curses with a random PuG and fail because the wammo runs off and aggros multiple groups, the monk turns out to be smiting, the ele turns out to me an MM and doesn't own Blood of the Master, and how I can play as Curses with an Alliance/Guild-based PuG and we OWN, every time, without fail, flawlessly.

Now as much as what you do seems very Valliant, offering to leave a group because you can't give them what they want...REAL Teamwork, which we apply to our Alliance PuGs is the ENTIRE group works around each other rather than expecting ONE member to fit around all the others. For example, if say I am in an Alliance PuG we will make concessions and adapt builds etc.. to allow a, perhaps weaker, member to play how they want and how they find the most fun.

About the necro issue.

The problem is just people demanding cookie cutter builds. If anyone has a necro they can apprciate the fact that necros can do alot more than just raise dumb minions.

If Anet intended Necros to be MinionMancers they'd have called them as such (I call them Mancers because Master sounds ghey >_>)

I just tend not to tell the team leader what I'm running, and if it's not to his liking, his fault. 9/10 when this happens I smoke the mission anyway.

posts by ChaoticCoyote remind me of why Mesmers and Assassins have a hard time getting PUGs

because the class doesnt "fit" the expected group need

My intent was not entirely to prove that AI is smarter than some humans. You say I can't prove that it's smarter than some people, well I challenge that you can't prove that it isn't.

New people are understandable. I have been patient with people who I know are new and have good attitudes. As for people doing it just to be jerks, you've just proven the rest of my point.

Sometimes, yes they do. When a mesmer with fast casting cant power drain a 1 second cast, yet my prot monk can without any hesitation I'd say Tahlkora is playing her skillbar better than that particular mesmer.

I dunno what to tell you about BiPing Koss. I've honestly never had a problem with Master of Whispers using blood rit on anything other than a caster since back when Nightfall first came out.

Regardless, I never said that the AI was always smarter than every player. I said that sometimes they are smarter than some players and that is absolutely true. Reading comprehension is your friend?

It is not intelligent to spam healing breeze, heal other and heal party and then not understand why you suddenly have no energy to heal anybody. I don't disagree to a monk having any of those skills on their bar if they know how and when to use them and in a lot of cases they don't. They are not good skills, but if used in the right situations and in moderation, you will get no complaints from me. Having bad skills on your bar does not necessarily prove a lack of intelligence, the lack of intelligence (and common sense) is when you use them ineffectively.

What this all does, in fact, boil down to is that I play this game to enjoy myself. I've said that before, I've said it many times. If I don't enjoy taking people who don't know how to do their job into my party, then I don't need to. It saves everybody a lot of aggravation. If I think your bar completely sucks, then I'm entitled to think that just as you are entitled to think that it does not. That does not mean I have to accept it and play with you, it means that I can let you go on your merry way and continue playing how you enjoy to play and I will go on my merry way and play without people who I think suck.

Nowhere did I say they are always better.

It's funny. The people on the side of pick up groups are kind of pushy and domineering - the exact sort of attitude that would make me not want to play with them. Granted, the other side can be that way as well, but at least they aren't trying to force me to play with them

One shouldn't use the number of PuGs as a measure of the quality or health of the game. Most people play solo, duo with a friend or spouse, play with a small set of friends they know in real life, or have joined a guild. It's like in real life. You have several social circles that you belong to and largely stay within their boundaries.

To put it in a metaphor, Guild Wars is like a pub. Lots of people are there for different reasons. Some want to have fun and play pool with their friends. Some want to unwind alone after a hard day at work. Some want to watch the football game with like minded fans in a shared experience. Some go with their families because they've got really good hoagies there.

Pick up groups are like the guy in the white leisure suit, gold medallion, and afro walking up to all the hot girls in the bar (never the ugly girls - they don't suit his "needs") and saying, "if I told you that you had a nice body, would you hold it against me?" When it doesn't work, eh, there's more fish in the sea. When it does, well, you get a one use slut girlfriend for a night who is probably exploiting you for cheap dirty sex in the same way you are using her.

PuGs are all about mutual exploitation. It's not built on trust or friendship. It's built on goals, and using each other to achieve those goals. The reason PuG numbers are dropping is because better alternatives are out there. Some people, like myself and some others who've posted here, wouldn't PuG if you paid them. And the ones who only PuG to exploit other players have heroes, something they can exploit that doesn't have a thinking, feeling human being on the end to otherwise stand in the way.

The people who are left are the ones who actually like PuGs - and if you ask me, you should be thankful that the people who's heart isn't in it have other alternatives. Though the numbers should be less, everybody still doing it should be on the page, leading to a better experience for everybody. Thus, PuGs turn into a singles bar, where everybody is looking for the same type of cheap, dirty sex.

LOL, that was a great analogy.

**tucks medallion in shirt pulls baseball cap on** What are you talking about!?!?!?!

I personally am not fond of PuG's, but I find myself using them way too often. I have the same attitude about guilds as i do with PuG's, "I don't like them but I feel everyone should have one." (Except the guild I am in now. It rocks.)

I was in a PuG the other day in a high level factions mission and it was bloody insane. The one tank was bragging about his weapon, had the elite "holier than thou" attitude, and kept using those old-as-hell insults like "your mom". The only time he shut up is when I shut up. Smart move on my part. I tihnk I'm going to hate life when I get to those few end-game missions on different campaigns, I assume I'll just run into a greater abundance of jerks.

On another subject, the introduction of TeamSpeak is a great advantage. When you have a whole team of people on TS when doing AB or missions, the overall team is more efficient. I have noticed this with my own eyes and ears. People spend less time typing and more time looking at the screen and their skills. Brilliant! So obviously guildies or friends is a much better way to go on the case of doing missions. I'm glad PuG's are fading.

Oooh i can just see youre so smart.

Yes i have played many other online games, and i can tell you that the players of Guild Wars are indeed immature brats for the most part, the other games have far more mature communities or at the very least alot more mature players, grouping is more organized ( even amongst idiots, fancy that! ) and they posses a bit more logic.

There is indeed a problem with the community, and if we are voicing opinions youre probably a part of it.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
smart /smɑrt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[smahrt] P adjective, -er, -est - having or showing quick intelligence or ready mental capability: a smart student.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
in•tel•li•gence /ɪnˈtɛlɪdʒəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-tel-i-juhns] - noun - capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.


Proof enough? Comparing reaction time with intelligence is not proving A.I. is "smarter" than humans. It proves that A.I. has a better reaction time. That's it. Last time I checked, reaction time does not factor into intelligence or how smart a person is.



Don't backtrack now.
Saying A.I. is smarter than any human being is flawed beyond belief, especially in a relatively simple program such as GW.
Your argument is flawed because it is based on an idea, in this day and time, which is absolutely untrue. Basing an argument on a flawed opinion, using untrue and unsubstantiated "facts" is your problem.
You, for some unknown reason, have this belief that reaction time and obedience is equal to or proves intelligence. Not even close. A.I. is not smarter or more intelligent than even the least intelligent human being. It just follows the written code, plain and simple. There is no deviation, no learning or anything of the sort. Each action a hero or hench takes is based on code. They are coded to react to specific conditions at specific times. To you it seems as they are moving and acting intelligently. They are not, each action they take is predetermined and in the end, they are just following orders.

I pose a question. How many skills will you absolutely not put on a hero because they won’t use it correctly? Regardless of how many times you chain it manually for that hero, do they learn the chain?

Take a human player out and coach them on the correct chain. After a while, some longer than others, do they become effective? Do they then use the skills and chain relatively effective?
I say yes, without a shadow of a doubt. How do I know? I have tried both.
I have trained a number of 55 monks as well as SS necros in UW farming. Yet, I can't get Master of Whispers or Olias not to BiP my warrior or stop using Blood of the Master while they are getting hammered.


That's life, deal with it and move on. Wherever you go, there will be jerks. Whether it's in school, at work or driving home, there are always jerks.
Please answer this question.
If one of your co-workers/classmates is a jerk, do you stop talking to that co-worker/classmate or do you stop talking to everyone in the office?

That is what happens in GW. You run into one or two jerks in a day and all of a sudden, everyone logged in is a jerk.

I usually play with heroes and henches anytime that I can. I do this for several reasons, most of which have been already discussed.

My biggest reason for going it alone is that I like to play at my own pace. When I enter a mission, My goals is not only to beat the mission, but also to explore its areas and fully emerse my self in the story. I don't need people telling me to skip cut-scenes and to kill faster and so on. Whats the point of even playing if you don't slow down and actually enjoy the story and the game?

Another reason is that the guild I used to be in disbanded. It had been around for quite sometime so I guess I just got used to playing with those guys. I tried a to be a member in a new guild but got kicked and told I wasn't farming the minimum 10k faction a day , was never told this when I was invited.

If I do join a PUG I ususally start by asking if anyone has tried to beat the mission before. If the answer is yes, I ask what skills they think would be a benefit to bring, I am flexible enough to know that I do NOT know everything and am open to suggestions. If no one has tried it, I am all for "winging" it and seeing what we see. A defeat is NOT THE END OF THE WORLD! Its a learning experience and next we will be more prepared

LOL, the intelligence argument is getting ridiculous.

The henchie/hero A.I.s are not more intelligent than human players. Ever! To imply that they are is just stupid! Now with that said, I honestly don't think that is what Explodemyheart meant to imply, he simply worded his post poorly.

Henchies will never be more intelligent than humans, but they definitely can be better players than humans.
- Henchies have better reaction times than some humans
- Henchies don't cuss you out
- Henchies don't scribble all over the map and/or ping incessantly
- Henchies don't leave in the middle of a mission.

I've never played a MMORPG game before. I've never played any game involving more than 4 players in a single environment. For the first week, I think the henchies that I grouped up with were my equal or even better on missions.

Just because someone is a really bad player doesn't mean they are unintelligent. It means that they either just don't have an aptitude for the game or they need more experience playing. The so called "unintelligent moron" in your PUG may have just gotten GW for his birthday yesterday and is still learning. This same "unintelligent moron" may win the Hall of Heroes in 6 months.

Someone mentioned earlier that a monk who spams Healing Breeze is an unintelligent jerk. Consider this. Healing Breeze is one of the 1st skills a monk learns. That monk has been using Healing Breeze since day one. At times it was the only decent healing spell available in his skill bank. Yes, there are better healing spells, but perhaps he just chose the one that he was most familiar with. Instead of flaming him, how about politely suggesting a better skill and tell him why it's better?

EDIT: Overall I strongly prefer PUG groups to henchies. Even bad pugs are more fun to team with, but when using a PUG I usually don't care if we lose. I'm playing just for fun and social interaction. If I absolutely have to beat this mission tonight for some reason, I'll use a PUG and friends. If we fail, I'll hench it.

I'm not backtracking, feel free to go back and read everything I've said. There's a difference between saying AI is sometimes smarter (which I did say) than AI is always better (which I didn't say).

Beyond that, I'm done with you. Not only are you trying to tell me how I should play the game that I paid for, but you're not even reading the things I type which is quite clear due to the fact that I just had to point out to you what I did and did not say.

Bingo. And by the way, I'm a female.

There is a really good explination for this, at least in my eyes. When I am a leader of a pug group I am trying to keep a certain amount of synergy for the group so that even if we do not work together as a team our skills do. Yes I have kicked people from my group for not having the proper skills. Heal party Ranger anyone? For instance, I need a healer, I have a bonder whose main goal is bonding a tank who will have a large number of conditions and enchantments on them along with a nice chunk of health. Can you think of a skill which will heal more in this circumstance then Dwyanas kiss (somewhere around a 700-1k pt heal)? True other skills will do the same job but they will cost the healer the ability to heal anyone else.. which is not a good thing. That or advertising for an Obsidiean Flesh tank, and you get tanks without the skill Obsideian Flesh... In order to have a sucessful pug (In general) you have to find balance in your group, you cant run with all assassins in an area filled with anti-assassin mobs.

The reason why they want you to change is they have assembled other people in such a way to work with the build they want you as. If you go curse then it might require a complete reworking of the profession makeup and skill spread of everyone else. So what if you cannot or do not want to play MM. What if the ranger cannot play a useful build to complement your curse one? This is why it is easier for you to do one of the following:
1) make your own pug which you probably will make so that you can play the build you want to play.
2) go with heros. Once again choosing a proper balance of henchmen and tooling your heros such that they complement your own build.

Same effect for both of them. You are getting people (or AI) which complement the build you are playing making a successful experiance more possible.

Moving on, if you play a profession and want to pug I am saying you should have the equipment and skills to run the main-stream builds for it. For instance necros essentially have 4 main-stream builds: BIP, SS, Orders, and MM. If you are a necro and you have the skills and equipment for these build you can pretty much join any pug. All and all it is not that many skills nor very expensive runes and equipment due to the greens, and collectors. If you are not able to run the mainstream builds expect to be kicked from some groups simply because you do not meet their plan (that or someone else might have to switch jobs).

Now onto what the OP posted....
Pugs are hard to form mainly due to what I said above. Been doing DoA a lot for the last few weeks, and it takes a good 30-60 minutes to form a party. If I did that for every hard mission (which requires said things) I would never get done. Much easier to find heros with the things I want then players.
PUG Mentality
I have to say most pugs I have been are terrible, not overal but generally due to 1-3 people. Everyone else are nice, skilled tollerant people who I would not mind pugging with again. It is these few people who give pugs a bad name. The worst cases I have seen so far are both surprisingly monks. One did not like how our tank was tanking so repetitivly called him a noob. The tank asked for an apology so the monk calls him some rather unsavory names, says he does not care what we think and calls us pve noobs then sabatoges the mission (which we were 3 hours into) for all of us. The other being a monk who decideds to go afk for ~30 minutes without a word then complains when he comes back and we have taken all the white drops that were his (though there were still some left) and the fact we did not wait on him, he proceeds to rage not picking up a thing. These really left a sour taste in my mouth. But what really gets me is if I go do these areas with friends and their guilds, or friends I can knock them out in 4 hours tops with one or two tries a peice instead of.. what try am I on now... 6 tries on a single area and almost everytime I get out I am more stressed then I go in simply trying to keep people making idiotic mistakes and repeating myself so many times....

However, this being said I have made a lot of good friends pugging.... I do not know if it is a equal trade off but at least I have some compensation.. more friends with guilds who I can go with to avoid having to pug... oh the irony.. had to pug to find these people.

When I made my OP, I made a comment that PUGs can be rude for the reason that you can get kicked for not having the skill they want you to use.

When I said that, I meant you were kicked aggressively without a chance to either change your skills, to aquire the skill or to offer an alternative.

To generally talk about it.

If I was to enter a PUG and the leader was polite enough, and asked me to use a set skill and explained why and the benefits and I had said skill, then I would probably use it.

If I was to enter a PUG and I was agressively asked/forced to use a skill without explanation or talking, and I was kicked instantly for asking why or saying I didnt have it, then that is what I consider wrong.

I have been in polite PUGs who have explained about said skill and why to use it. But unfortunately most are aggressive and have an attitude and dont give you a chance to get the skill, or even change your skills. You get kicked just from saying "no I dont".

If someone wants me to do something and talks to me with respect and politely, im more then willing to follow instructions if I feel its beneficial and their correct.

If im forced into something and spoken to like im a child (at 24), then I wont accept it. But as Ive said, Ive experienced 90% of the time you are spoken to like your stupid with no respect.

I think it's sad how PUGs have declined. The attitude has something to do with it, but the release of nightfall and the introduction of heros also plays a role. I noticed a significant drop in the number of people looking to do certain missions after NF came out. Trying to get a group for missions in the Ring of Fire or Crystal desert during anything but the most peak of peak hours can be next to impossible sometimes.

That's not really the biggest issue in my mind though. The issue is definately attitude, but I have a different take on it. I saw some people in this thread complaining about how PUGs were so terrible, with rude or silent members who are just a bunch of idiots. I won't deny that when you play in PUGs you run into your fair share of people like that. However, I think playing in PUGs is still a good thing, and I will tell you why.

How do you meet people and make friends? In Guild Wars, as in real life, you do it by trying new things with new people. Unless you had a lot of real life friends who happened to play guild wars when you started, how many friends would you start with? Zero, that's how many. How would you get more? Some maybe joined a guild right away and got to know some people there. Others, like me, had few friends for awhile. I took my time in joining a guild. Before I was in a guild I just had casual friends that I made from PUGs.

How the heck do you make a friend from a PUG game? It is really not hard, you just have to do something fewer and fewer people seem to do - lighten up. So many times I've gotten in parties where everyone was so focused on the mission and winning that there was no communication outside of "ok guys, for this next part we need to... ... ..." or "hey! don't agro them yet!" etc etc. When people aren't shouting orders or insults (if it's not going well), it's dead quiet. You hack away at your foes and complete the objectives as if you were playing with a group of uber-smart henchmen, not real people, and when it's all done you disband without so much as a word, maybe a "gj guys, cya" but that's it. We have all done missions this way, including myself. Sometimes you're just not in the mood to do any more than that.

Other times I have bucked that trend though. I'll crack a joke in the middle of an otherwise tense or serious encounter. I'll laugh at my dead character after getting pwnt by something, instead of flaming a person or the party as if it was all their fault. I'll try to drum up some conversation in the party. Sometimes I get nowhere (some people really are there to just play the game, or they're tired, or just genuinely boring) but sometimes I get people talking and loosening up. Soon the mission seems less important as you're now enjoying the company of your fellow party members. It's not unusual that after a mission like that I end up adding a few people from the party to my friends list. Not all of them I stay in touch with, but some I do.

This was how I got in my guild, I did a few quests with one of their officers and we became friends and he invited me to join his guild. I am very glad I did, as I have made some cool friends there, but that doesn't stop me from tryin to make new friends outside of the guild. I think PUGs offer the best (maybe even only) place to do that, and you cannot replace a friend with a hero or hench.

So to sum it all up, PUGs are a mixed bag: sometimes you get unpleasant people, sometimes you get some cool people. If you get the unpleasant type, what's the worst that can happen? You leave the group, just tough it out (for what... an hour or two tops?), take a little crap from some random internet person you'll never talk to again? What's the best that can happen - you come out of the party with a friend or two who may end up being some of your closest buddies in the game. Have a little faith in your fellow gamer, not everybody out there is a jerk or an idiot.

If you want to play with heroes all game, you might as well not play a MMO.
PUGs are bad, yes, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that most people who can pay goes to WoW and little immature kids play GW because it is "Free".
Just show the PUG you are superior. Who cares? It's just a game, and as far as I am concerned, it might be better off to not even say anything against an idiot PUG. This way, the PUG is an idiot and will always remain an idiot. Their loss, your entertainment. If someone's being an ass online, either ignore and don't care or just be an ass back. It's just internet and not really that important.

most of us play with friends or guild
- and *sometimes* strangers

Absolutely beautiful.

I rarely PuG nowadays. If there's some room in our guild team I don't mind taking one or two PuGs. A group of good players that are used to play together easily makes up for your Leeeeeeeeeeroy PuGie. I also make people whisper to me before I invite them in my goup. It is surprising how few people are capable of whispering to you: "Hi I'm a ... and my elite skill is ..." That's all I ask for but still there's only a handful of people out there that knows how to write. If you have a little chat with people before you invite them you can already make yourself a picture with whom your dealing and those people are usually worth inviting.

I also PuG areas where people do use certain cookie cutter builds, like Sorrow's Furnace or 5 man FoW teams. Builds may vary a bit but usually it goes fine. Again, whisper to people before you invite them.

For everything else, I have basically given up on PuGs. People with starter armor in endgame areas, ragequitting, insults, no talking in the group etc. All those things turned me away from PuGing. I'm not saying I'm the perfect player, but Hero/Hench controls made it much easier for me to do what I need to be done and to enjoy the game a little bit more again. I didn't have a frustrating PuG experience for a very long time.

I'm definitely not going to blame the Heroes for PuG numbers dropping. Most PuGs just managed to leave a bad impression all by themselves.

I absolutely agree with everything you just said. I have two people on my friends list who will occassionally ask me to join them in trying to do the titan quests or helping with older ones.

Im more then willing to because we have a laugh when we do it. We make jokes and have fun. WHich is how a PUG should be. Not all tense and uptight and too focused on the task to enjoy it.

QFT!

There is a reason why people, including myself, take Erys Vasburg with them whenever they go out into the Echivold Forest and now, with Norgu, it's like "I'm sorry, were' you trying to cast a spell?". But then again, it would be worrying if the AI didn't have godly reflexes!

As for cussing you out, I think I heard Koss mutter a few harsh words when I sent him in to take aggro last...

Henchies not leaving in the middle of a mission is generally why I try to insist on Hero monks. If I'm heading a PuG I would much rather take Hero monks, unless the monk is from our guild, over any human monk because too many of them leave mid-way through. See, it's different if the monk is someone you know. My brother makes an excellent monk, helped by the fact it's his favourite class to play, so when he says he'll help out I know I can trust him to stay... But generally I take the view Dunkoro > Human 'non-guild' monk.

@ EXPLODEMYHEART - My bad - the first time I read your post it did read as though you were saying Hero/Hench are always better players than humans. Although TheRaven says they're not more intelligent ever, I don't really agree with that. The code the AI follows has, after all, been written by humans, and although they may not be able to cope with the more complex builds we come up with, such as farming builds, I have witnessed numerous occaisions where the AI can play, say, a better interrupter than an interrupter... Also you must remember that the AI will ALWAYS follow your expert advice If you tell them to go wait somewhere, or not attack something, or to complete a mission by following a specific route because you deem it to be easier they will abide by your command. This can be unlike certain human players who, after having told them that if they storm in somewhere they'll get pwnd, or told not to aggro something, they will all rush in anyway and get pwnd, or the wammo will aggro everything he can. That is the point at which I stand there and laugh while they ask me: "have u got rez?????"

I had a nice debate about this yesterday with a friend he beleived it came down to teamwork.

In his mind forcing someone to use a set build is part of teamwork and if they wont then there not a team player and should be kicked.

I pointed out that teamwork is when a person is asked or suggested for a set reason to change and if he cant change totally a minor change (such as a Blood Necro adding BiP to use on the monks) is more like teamwork along with the rest of the team adapting to him slightly.

He then made the point making a person remain in agro range of the enemy while the others escape is teamwork. (This was the analogy he used for kicked members who didnt fit his desired build)

However forcing a member to do such isnt teamwork, allowing a person to do so by choice is teamwork.

Builds dont make teamwork, builds enhance team work. A Team with a bad build can still use teamwork to play on each others strengths to suceed while a team with a good build on paper can fall appart because people dont how how u use there build with the team (eg a Battery Necro not useing BiP not on others but only on himself)

So why do people dislike PUGing, the lack of teamwork in most PUGs. Some teams just mold together and work almost as one mind, others instead of a team become a squad of individuals doing a mission which results more often than not in failing. So moral of the story then PUG players killed the PUG, Guilds friends, heros and henchies ftw!

I cant stand doing the elona storryline with heroes. Its too boring. I like the excitement of people actually talking about things, whether it be about RL or the game. I have found that because no one talks to eachother ingame anymore, I lack motivation to get campains done, it really just seems like a chore with heroes. At least with pugs you had the excitement of peoples spontaneous actions.

Now all i have to look forward to is The healer hench saying
"their healers a Sissy!, A sissy!"

Personally, I've never had a problem with PUGs... I don't see why all of you people think PUGs are the spawn of Satan. You speak of PUGs as if they are all assholes who don't give a damn about anyone else.

Every PUG I've been in has been very nice, conversational, adaptive people. Once in a while, we'll get a single person who does not know much about the game. Either we end up helping them learn, or they are beyond our help and we kick them. That simple.

# Cussing? Yeah. Happened probably once. That didn't last long.
# No conversation? Never happened. Every group I've been with talks. Sometimes it's just before and after mission, but people are very talkative. Try saying "hi" sometime.
# Mass-agro? Yeah. Like I said, once in a while you'll get one... But they don't last long.
# Wrong skills? Every PUG I've been with has a high chance of survival. I don't know what skills they use, but if they suck as much as you people say they do, then I'm very glad they use them.
# Chaos? The PUGs I group with communicate before, during, and after a mission. We always choose a "team leader". Sometimes, we choose a "beta leader" just in case. Overall, teams know what to do and when to do it. When a Warrior is about to die, they slap on Endur Pain and agro the enemy away from the Monks while still staying in healing range.

I could go on with this. But it seems pointless to continue trying to give examples that most will chalk up to "luck" or something like that.

Now, I know everyone and their mom are going to respond to this with crap like, "PUGs are sp4wn of D3vil n00b" and "Learn2Play", but the fact of the matter is, I do know how to play. So do a lot of other people. More people than Guru wants to believe, apparently.

People aren't as stupid as this community portrays them. Most of you sound like you had a bad experience. I have no clue if it's your own doing or through no fault of your own. But I can say that one or two times of failing a mission with a PUG doesn't mean everyone in Guild Wars are 9 year olds that don't know what energy is.

Try believing in others once in a while. Take a chance and grab that Assassin in the corner of Thirsty that's been asking for a group for 3 months. Humans are not inherently retarded. We have the remarkable ability to rise up in the face of diversity and take a challenge and turn it into victory. Try looking at the beautiful things and the world will take on a whole new meaning for you.

The thing which astounds me about the most about this entire of "if you dont use the skills your asked, to then your not a team player", is this;

When was the last time you saw a warrior use any build which benefitted his other players?

Obviously warriors are used mainly as tanks and interupting casting, but when was the last time you saw a warrior using his enchantments to benefit the team?

Boosted armor, speed, health, etc etc...

The few PUGs I have been in, I havent ever once seen a warrior use enchantments to benefit the team. Something which would be extremely usefull.

This idea of teamwork is nonsense because its always the select professions who are expected to make these sacrifices with builds. Warriors are never forced to change skills. Its mainly necros and monks and rangers, and occassionally ele's who are asked to do this.

As you said, teamwork is great, but it shouldnt be forced onto people. You shouldnt demand someone to change their build, and if you do, you explain why and help them understand. In a polite way.

While I agree with your point to a degree, I disagree with your idea behind warriors never changing anything. Thing is, the warrior is all about maneuvering, and not about the skills. You could have a warrior with only attribute points in his weapon mastery, no skills, and normal equipment and he'd still be able to do his job - tank, apply pressure, damage output.

Pretty much every other class relies on their skills. Take a necro, for example. Let's say Joe Necro has an MM build that he's been using since Level 1. You reach Dasha Vestibule and inform Joe Necro: "Hey, uhh, there aren't many bodies in here, you might consider changing your build." If Joe Necro says no, how useful will he be? Compare to how useful that skilless Warrior would be in that same mission. Case in point.

Ah, yes. The classic "don't like grouping, don't play mmorpgs". The ultimate argument against all us dirty soloers. Let me ask you something? Has that argument EVER worked? Even once? No? Ever wonder why that is? I will answer that question in the form of an analogy! Hope you did good on the SATs!

"don't like grouping" is to "don't play mmorpgs" as "don't like turkey" is to "don't go in the kitchen".

I disagree to that, Warriors needs skills to be effect also without it they highly ineffective, they cant tank, attack or such like effectively if at all. (since they would lack healing, spiek damage, conditions, interupts.) Eg. Is it so hard for a warrior to bring Wild blow in a mission that is full of enemys that uses Defensive stances?

Ah so true although there are rare occasions where people do, like using mending on a monk, although ive never seen others do this i do admit, i have done it myself on numerious occasions when in areas with no enchant strippers since generally the monks take more damage than what i do.

One of my personal favourites is Sousuke's Classic:

"That went bang good. That went bang REAL good!"

Hey dont forget the Classic of Zhed on Pogahn Passage

I completely agree there are times when an MM necro would be useless, in areas where no bodies will apear. Then they would need to re-think their build. But those are acceptable and understandable times to change skills. Those are opportunities for people to try other builds and learn.

If its a different situation when your in an area/mission/quest which isnt dependant on a certain Necro build. A situation where both an SS or MM would be just as affective as the other. But your still being forced to change.

Probably just because the leader has a preference.

Those are times when its unreasonable.

What if you prefere using heroes and henches, but you love trading and chatting side of GWs. You love being in guilds to do PvP or GvG, but you still prefere heroes when in PvE.

Your reasoning isnt valid. There is more to GWs, then just the missions and quests and there is more to the online side of it then just PUGs.

The online side of GWs provides trading and talking and socialising. You dont need to be in a PUG to socialise in GWs.