Make PvE Challenging

This post may seem kinda random, but I am interested in what hard core PvEers think of the idea and the possibility that a dev might read it.

There seems to be an increasing repeativeness in PvE. The theme of Factions and Nightfall (and likely future chapters) is to add difficulty by increasing damage output. For example, the boss bonus in both chapters is double damage and increased cast time leading to considerably higher DPS. Elementalists dominate the PvE landscape, in Realm of Torment a Deep Freeze can easily lead to a party wipe. Domain of Anguish, the elite PvE mission, is a perfect example where the challenge is level 28 monsters using "Enraged," a damage boosting stance.

Conversly, the actual skills given to monsters are very lacking. The "monk" the predominated early factions (afflicted monk) used Aegis, Ray of Judgement, Retribution, and Reversal of Fortune. A PvE landscape with high damage enemies with weak bars (especially weak monk bars) encourages a party group with a tank that takes all the damage and everyone else is high DPS nukers. Returning to DoA, one of the most popular builds is a tank who takes all the aggro with SF eles that nuke from a distance. This type of strategy is very effective (and would work in earlier areas as well, but the enemy DPS isn't high enough to make it a necessity), but it is mundane and devalues lesser damage classes. This is one reason that the mesmer is viewed as a weak PvE class, it simply doesn't fit into this strategy.

High damage monsters (with gimped skill bars) also encourages farming. With extremely high DPS and simple builds, it is easier for one to make one man farming builds. This can be proven by anet expanding the skill range in areas causing a reduction in farming or forcing new builds (think adding dying nightmares to UW as a small example).

What if PvE was completely different. Instead of making enemies level 28 and defined by high DPS, give them real skill bars. Staying with monk bars because it is the easiest to see this point. You do not see a reasonable monk build in prophecies till you reach the Ring of Fire with Coventina the Matron. A monk that can actually heal. Similarly there aren't real monk builds in Nightfall till you see a Margonite Ki. Both of these examples are very challenging and of course wouldn't be the PvE norm because they are lvl 28, but what if level 20 monsters with reasonable skill bars was the norm? What if you ran into a group of monsters to see a Boon Prot siting in a Ward Melee or next to a Blinding Surge ele? Real skill bars would force different strategies than "overpowering" the enemy. Character "shut down" would be introduced to PvE. Long ago when I made a mesmer and took it through Ring of Fire, it destroyed ever single boss where a high DPS group would have had problems. It would encourage people to develop in there playing abilities as strategy and tactics would be a greater asset than larger yellow numbers.

Or would that be a bad change? Should developing new strategies (rather than relying on old ones and new one man farming builds) be left to PvP only.

Edit: spelling mistake, sure there is a ton more

A-RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing-men.

Best post ever.

I love you

This has bothered me about factions since it launched. There are better ways to make PvE more challenging. And when I saw the DoA launch I was severely disappointed. The development of gimmick builds in PvE is disheartening (like when I first got my mesmer to the tomb of primeval kings, only to find I couldnt get a group).

If mobs (as well as henchies) were allowed to have 8 skills like players, PvE would automatically be more challenging. And maybe you would run into a group of nothing but necros, and they b-spike your monk the second you are in range. Just co-ordinate the builds of the mobs. Even if each group is running a balanced build it would be better than this random crap. And "Afflicted Monk" does not always have to have the same skill bar. One afflicted monk could be a healer, one a prot, and one a smite, hell maybe one is a 55.

Just mix it up.

I say go with the fashion of "shadow of colossus" style.

Give us one huge monster like urgoz but don't give us those small little long track BS that force us to stay there for 3 hours. I remember the day when people first find out about bone dragon, people would go out of their way just to get their butt handed to them; it wasnt until release that bone dragon were just a weakling and ignored, then it came back strong again, but strong in a different way. I would really like alot more places like majesty's rest.

For example, 4 colossus that travel across a continent. The players can run around the continent in searching for it. Everytime you enter a zone with a colosus, the enviorment color theme is entirely different, hence telling the player it is there. (so no traveling across the explorable area just to not find it)

Basically the principle is, give more fast pace fun to PvEers. You can just log on and go in to have have fun, and feel deeply satisfied after playing it. Hence,
Defeating Strong monster = satisfaction
Not requiring to go through 3 hours = fast pace
Decent rewards = ++satisfaction
Changing enviorment = freshness

I also noticed the same thing with blocking stances on PVE enemies (Lightning reflexes, whirldwind defence, shield stance, bonettis). Very few enemies have them because it would make battles last a lot longer unless you bring Wild Blow along. The same goes for efficient heals. The battles can easily be a standstill (like that Charr in prophecies that spammed heal area :9 or some monk bosses) which is not very fun for PVE players. True it would demand more party variety (members who can destroy stances, interrupt healing etc) but battles would be a lot less fast paced.

8 skills on a bar that were slightly thought out. Secondary professions for enemies. Enemies randomly select from a couple bars in each area (like Diablo...there was multiple enemy group types that could be spawned in each area).

All are very easy to institute and require no change to the current AI. Just a change in their skill bar. I think it would make a very interesting, and fun, chapter 4.

ramdonized skill bar within certain attributes would be interesting

Real skill bars aren't going to save the DoA. A SandStorm spike that catches 4 of your players (because there's no maneuvering room in HoH) will lead to at least one death no matter what bar the 2 monks are running. That is basically what the mobs are dealing with when they can't run from AoE because they are being constantly KD'd from meteor showers and traps they are stupid enough to stand in.

In more general terms for other locations, a number of things that would make the game much more pvp-like (res sigs, groups having at least 2 healers with good bars, etc.) tend to frustrate pvers with never-dying mobs and so are probably out. Although you might be able to get away with this setup for an elite mission. The dueling houses quest in Kurzick lands starts to approximate this and is one of my favorites.

Having the same mobs also have different builds would also be interesting. Imagine if you just killed a mob with a monk that had a HB healer, the next mob of monsters of the same race had a Divert Hexes monk instead.

Thirded. I've been wanting this for a long time, actually. And it doesn't even need to be amazing AI--as long as it can run the bars decently well. Furthermore, this would encourage creativity, since there would be multiple strategies and builds to cope with enemies, and not simply maximizing a single concept (tank/nuke).

Edit: er, it was third when I wrote it. >.>

Edit2: a lot of people are complaining about things that make PvE last too long and frustrate PvE players. But typically it's the fact that it's a level 28 boss with the decent skill bar that makes things frustrating. Normal enemies with decent bars would not be crazy like this, and would actually make your team more able to cope with the boss, because you now have to meta against it.

/Signed

And why would good PvE monster bars frustrate anyone? With the exception of hardcore farm monkeys (who are playing the wrong game anyway) i'm pretty sure everyone would love to be challanged a bit, being challanged and succeeding is a lot more rewarding then pressing C+Space Bar

You do remember all the complaints about the Kournian priests kiting yeah? Often people don't want to adjust their playstyle, and it gets very frustrating when you hit something your playstyle can't deal with, which is rare in existing PvE. And we all know how dead DoA is compared to the prophecies "elite" areas that have been out forever.

Future chapters would also need to be much smaller in area... groups with real healers and rez's take much more time to kill. That means less drops/xp and longer treks unless the areas are designed around it.

Optimaly, better skill bars would be in place of greater damage. I agree that a different character bar on a DoA enemy would be pointless if you run up to a mob and the whole party gets wiped by a single Churning Earth. The idea is instead of facing the challenge of high DPS, you face a much more varied and interesting challenge. The negative is some areas will be annoying. It is annoying when you enter an area and half the enemies have defensive stances or spam diversion but with each new chapter, there are more and more counters added to the game. Use them.

Mobs may take longer to kill. Making monsters run from AoE slowed down PvE. The difference with expanding skill bars is that it not only makes PvE slower (at first at least, till people evolve new strategies), but discourages one man farming. One man farming is what causes anet to reduce drops. This has been shown in every advanced area of the game. UW nerfing of ecto drops. Urgoz reduction of gold chests.

Less farming means better average drops (and better market prices even since things aren't farmed to oblivion), rewarding party style play. Which seems good to me

Edit: This sums it up very well

I do like the idea a lot. Making spawns versatile and different based on thoughtout builds, having to bring in actual counters rather than outdamaging the monters' healing. Might boost the recruitment of underused classes like Mesmers. GLF Migraine - HoH-scrubs welcome!

Coming back from many months off-GW and entering Nightfall I was overly happy being able to use Bulls Strike on my hammer warrior to knock these kiters down. Always happy to chase them. I don't like the current overpowering concept. Besides these necessary gameplay changes I would prefer better animations throughout cutscenes rather than the characters doing stupid emotes like /clap /cheer. Pseudo "Lip-Synch" is a good start however, much appreciated.

This is only because no one is prepared for them. If such groups were everywhere, people would bring things to deal with them. As mentioned, they're only a problem now because no one builds to cope with them, and when they do see a real healer, it's a level 28 boss.

One thing that makes Guild Wars unique is that there is an emphasis on mitigation (of damage or of defense). But PvE is currently all about making your yellow numbers bigger than their blue numbers.

Edit: I am pro at posting late.

/Signed
No more retribution bonding healers. Some intelligent bars may make things much more interesting in the next chapters.. Go Drew Go!

Monsters with a full 8 skills and second professions would be a welcome change from level 29 monsters that auto-attack for triple digit hits. However, unless I could still clear the storyline with a group of 7 other AI heroes/henchmen I'm not going to have as much fun. I hate pugging, and there aren't always guildies around when you need them. I like to take my time, randoms don't.

DoA is somewhat restricting on your choice of skills simply because of the amount of damage you have to reduce in order to be successful. Once the areas start to become harder and harder, the variety of builds used in those areas are going to be minimal resulting in a very stagnant experience. Look at a place like the Fissure of Woe and The Underworld, and there are groups ranging from various sizes with a variety of builds.

I have no problems with the flat out storyline being easy to moderately tough, the experience should be designed with every type of gamer in mind. The most rewarding and fun PvE experiences personally have come from self-imposed challenges and the endgame quests in Tyria. Last Day Dawns, Defend North Krya Province... they were all very challenging (makes me think they should restrict the party size on future "challenge" areas). The only rewards were experience, so you know there weren't just people trying to make a buck doing them; they were there for the challenge of it all.

Kournan priests along with many other casters didn't kite, they ran away without stopping.

/signed

lvl 20-22 max on mobs and lvl 22-24 boss with full skill bar..should be easy to change, they already have the programming for it (hero's) just have to make up the skill bars and presto much more challenging game that would take me longer than 2 days to get a character thru

Being able to specify at least half your party's bar should be enough.

Oh, and I fully agree with the idea. I'd like the idea of actually feeling like I'm accomplishing something--when I can take a full group of heroes/hench, run into a mob, and then alt-tab for a couple minutes and find the enemies dead when I come back--the game is too easy.

The idea here seems to be giving monsters GvG skillbars rather than the current selection of random crap. While I like the idea, I think it would be scuttled in practice by the monster AI.

Having done some pretty extensive testing or the AI, I can say that there are a lot of staple PvE skillbars they simply cannot play. Give them a standard Flashbot and they'll blind caster spikers and throw Breeze against mass degen. Give them a Dom mesmer and they'll hit skills on recharge at random targets. There are some templates they can play reasonably well, but you can't just put in good templates and expect them to function.

Builds that the monsters can play well are almost always some form of pressure gimmick. Mass hex stacks, IWAY, thumpers + searing flames, ect. The AI is good at handling C + Space or spam builds, they're good at keeping track of hex timers, and they're remarkably good at interrupts. However, giving monsters hex builds or IWAY builds isn't going to make PvE any more challenging, since those are all fairly one-dimensional gimmicks that are easily countered by putting the right skills on your bar.

The current DPS-oriented mindset of PvE is terrible, without question. You win PvE with mass DPS, big healing numbers, and as many copies of Protective Spirit as you can carry. However, I think there would have to be some pretty significant AI improvements before changing the monster's skillbars would have any serious effect.

Well...
I'm all for better skillbars on the Enemy but at the same time, seriously cut down on the amount of mobs on a map. On some maps there are easily over 500 mobs and just imagening having to fight this number /8 every single darn step makes me frown in disgust. That's also part of the problem of the AI Update, it just prolongs battles to the point where they get frustrating and boring (yay, let's chase that caster aaagaaaaain. Oh next mob, hello there caster, care for a chase?).

I agree that the problem with the way how A-Net sees challenge is the word "numbers". Give them four times the attribute, throw in a hundred times more enemies and you have a PVE Challenge. A boring and frustrating challenge (See DoA).

So
/signed on more diverse builds but only when the number of mobs is cut down significantly.

The difficulty is already okay. I would, however, like monsters to have more thoughtful skill bars.

Well, the AI should be able to run anything heros can run, right? Are the current instances of PvE "spiking" coinicidences, or actually programed in?

Actualy.... hero AI could be improved a bit as well... >_<

Spikes in PvE tend to happen in two ways.

One is when you're first approaching a group and the monsters use their first skill on whoever comes into range. If that skill is a DD, you have a spike. This is pretty much the core of the healer-tank-nuker concept that dominates PvE in most games and does marginally well in Guild Wars.

The second way spikes happen is massive damage numbers that happen to compress onto one target, or a lot of targets. You don't need coordination or teamwork for spikes to happen when your nukes are doing 300 damage, you need to have two people randomly hit the same target. AoE exacerbates the problem by increasing the chance that multiple nukes will hit a given target at a given time.

In other words, no, the AI isn't specifically programmed to count from 3 and spike people down while galing your infuser. Normal damage on semi-random targets is just going to work out that way sometimes.

Yes, if kills in PvE were paced at the same rate as GvGs, they would be very frustrating. 20 mins to dispatch 8 monsters because they have res sigs, hard reses aegis, wards, diversions, blackouts on melee, blindbots, interrupts etc. This does not seem like very satisfying gameplay to me.

I agree that currently PvE is monotonous and lacking in skill. Though we shouldn't underestimate the Diablo type allure of just running out and cutting a swathe.

I think that, at first, PvEers would complain and start petitions and ragequit after they fought a single mob for 20 minutes and couldn't force any kills spamming Meteor Shower on recharge. Over time, there would be changes to the basic build structure of PvE and things would be somewhat like they were before - the mobs aren't smart enough to effectively utilize counter-counters, so you just bring the skills required to beat their particular bars.

Res sigs and hard resses are a problem? Drop a Frozen Soil somewhere, since the mobs aren't smart enough to hunt it down. Wards giving you trouble? Aggro their casters a little ways so your warriors have free reign. Most of the defenses that exist in this game can either be worked around with simple skill counters (Wild Blow!) or require that the player using them not be an easily manipulated bot.

PVE will always be a game of AI-exploitation, and I don't think giving the monsters real skillbars would change that. People would ragequit, there would be an adjustment period where people learned how to exploit the new skillbars, and business would resume as usual. The main impact of this change would be a smaller gap between PvE and PvP - while that's a good thing, I'm not sure it's worth the backlash PvEers would feel when their favorite tactics didn't work anymore.

Well, I wouldn't mind fighting 8 mobs for 20 minutes and all you really had to do was fight those 8 mobs (or maybe 8 mobs x 3 for a 1 hour mission) to get some greens/golds/gemstones/whatever.

Don't forget that in GVG, morale boosts recharge res sigs, that won't happen in PVE.

But just because most popular gvg builds are holding builds doesn't mean that you can't have the PVE mobs run an offensive spike build.

But I like the idea of randomness in builds for monsters in a zone and actual semi-intelligent use of said skills. You could get away with it by calling it an "elite mission"

But what will you do when the popular pvp they use gets nerfed?

not signed and here's why...


people will only want the perfect team build and leave everyone else out like sins, dervs, rits and whatever other classes that don't fit their team. sounds too much like focused pvp where your build has to match what they want. some of the missions in NF storyline are already challenging imo, gate of madness for instance. a pug with a odd build wont get far but someone with hero/henchies with a perf hero build will beat the mission easily. leave strategy to the elite areas and pvp. 8 skills would be fine for mobs but i dont wanna see ZOMG ownage builds with them. i just dont wanna see my derv or my other unwanted chars to really be forced to hero/hench my way through another chapter :P

my 2cents...dont get me wrong, more varried mob skills would be nice but not the zomg uber leet builds that come with them.

Class discrimination is a hard problem, and it is only going to get worse as more get introduced (assuming anet stays on the track of creating 2 new professions with each campaign.) If PvE was made as challenging as everyone here would like to see it, it is likely that some classes might get left out in the cold. But if that is the consequence then I say so be it, because GW PvE just isn't challenging enough.

One thing though- I can imagine that if something like this were implemented that pugs would get more popular again. Playing with all heroes and henchies would become a bit of a pain.

Other way around - PuGs would probably be a lot less common, since fighting these sorts of monsters would require more thoughts in your teambuild and playstyle. I can already use a pure AI group and do better than most PuGs. If the monsters had actual skillsets that I could build to counter (as opposed to the random crap they have now), being able to decide my party's build without arguing with the W/Mo for half an hour would become even more attractive.

come on.. its pve the sole fact is it is repetitive... and the reason it is repitive is because pve is short the reason it is short is because the level cap is low and the lvl cap is never changing.

Yes monsters can get harder but in the end PvE is exactly what it means Player vs Environment and the AI of monsters in the environment does not change where as pvp is dynamic because it is humans vs humans.

Can you guys recall the first day DOA came out people were practically crying because of its difficulty... and pve has one other thing as well
PvE players work together to come up with a build and one build will beat it because monsters dont change.

Dont ask for something that will lead to more B!tching

Game is what it is dont ask for something that isn't gona change it would be nice to for games be more dynamic in AI but we are not at that point in gaming history yet...

/signed

I'm all for changes that break up the repetetive gameplay that dries out the pvechapters so fast.
Currently you have the same groups of enemies with the same number of classes and the same skills in the same spots on almost every map. Making the spawns a bit more dynamic would discourage botfarming, reducing the need to nerf the used skills for botfarming and generally making pve more challenging and interesting.
Somebody mentioned that some classes might be not taken by pugs if mobs get better skills. True or false? Don't know. But back in the old days, I had to play my mesmer with henchies through the fireislands, as nobody wanted a mesmer in their teams. "Classdiscrimination" has always been there. But what if AI-monks are smarter and get good skillbars? Maybe a mesmer becomes a great addition to a team...who knows.

On a sidenote. As this all is about improving pve. Why not encourage partyplay again. It would be really easy. What about increasing the rewards with increasing number of human players? A bonus like:
"normal rewards" + (number of human players - 1) * (10% more XP/more gold/ better quality of drops)?
Or something like that?

I like mobs with relatively good skill bars. It doesn't have to be anything looking like a GvG setup. Just give them something that AI can use but that won't suck. For example : a monk with Word of Healing, Orison of Healing, Words of Comfort, Protective Spirit, Dismiss Condition, Smite Hex. Is it a great bar? Not for PvP. But AI should understand what to do with it.

I don't think that battles should be too long but then again not giving mobs anything to sustain massive damage just leads to the tank-nuke-healer mentality.

The thing i hate mostly about 'Challenging PvE' ala DoA is that it truly becomes build wars. You need very specific builds to enter those areas and have any kind of chance. Anything that would be considered 'balanced' in PvP has just no place there. You want insane AOE damage + insane protection because there is TONS of mobs with HUGE damage output, but no real way to take nuking in the face. I truly dislike that because it makes PvE extremely boring imo and very limiting in what you can experiment with.

An example of an area i always liked is FoW. You can get in there with nearly any kind of build setup and win if you play well, yet it will punish bad players heavily with a fast party wipe if you're not careful and your players don't play decently. And notice the mob packs in FoW : relatively good monk mobs, warrior mobs, mesmer mobs, ele mobs, necro mobs and ranger mobs ALL MIXED TOGETHER with relatively good bar for PvE (at least what they got on it makes sense. It might not cut it in PvP, but PvE isn't PvP). You can bring Mesmers in FoW and they help by shutting down healers, etc. You can bring pretty much anything you want. Ofc after all this time the area isn't that challenging because it's kinda outdated and players in general improved since the beginning of GW. Yet i find it more fun than more or less any 'challenge mission' of Faction or Nightfall.

Making places hard by putting insane mob number with insane damage amount is just lame. It forces builds and the challenge to beat a place is more 'find the good build' than 'play skillfully'. I mean, can a dagger Assassin do ANYTHING in DoA if he isn't AEcho-Shadowforming? Especially when you add 'environment effects' like '50% attack miss'?! Those thing take away full classes.

I'd really like to see more areas that are FoW-like. Relatively well balanced mob packs, that can be pretty low level if needed (20-24) but that can pose a challenge because of how diverse they are while having more damage than a normal player. Give them some counter to 'only nuking' strategy (interrupts, anti-caster hexes, Spirit Bond on a monk, a mob with Wild Blow, etc.) If it takes longer to kill a pack, simply put less packs on the map so that the total time to complete mission/area is similar (because i agree that making PvE longer isn't necessarily good).

Also a good way to make AI focus could be with Shouts like Varesh uses in Paragon form. She has a shout that make all mobs switch to her target. What if they just gave that to some warrior, paragon or w/e mob in some groups that will 'call targets' and switch when failing to kill after x time or after target has say x enchants on them, etc? That would make mobs more 'intelligent' and more focused and could create more spikes of damage on their side.

you know if they do implement this farming in chapter 4 will be alot harder/ unheard of, and people who love farming will rebel and than there will be tons of topics about it on this site

/signed

Not only would such a change make pve more entertaining, but IMO it would reduce the class "racism" because no one specific build will power through an area easily.

I agree it would cause problems for most players for a while, but most players do not like rewards handed to them (and those that do need not play online games. They can go play consoles with cheat codes).

As for killing farming, I really do not think it would happen. There are many creative players out there that could figure out a way to solo farm an area. If that fails they would farm with as few other human players as possible with well thought out builds. At the least, it would help reduce the bots.

I think they should just allow pvp players to control AI monsters. I'd choose a boss and just destroy people. The wait for mallyx would be insane.

by far Anet's defination of "challenge" seem to mean cheating by the AI using the higher levels, double damage from bosses, environmental effects etc.

But keep in mind that a game that only 10% of the gaming population can play and enjoy means a game than only 10% of your potential/intended market share will buy and continue to support.

Emphasis of games should always be first and foremost fun, not frustration.

How to do that? I am not paid why should i tell you how to make a game fun.

That would be hawt!

You might be joking but I think that would be a damn fun idea.