Update - Friday February 9 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

ikpt

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2007

09 Feb 2007 at 23:56 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Surely the best way to stop these OP team builds is to limit the max number of a class you can take in a team in PvP.

I agree, except the skill-abusing community would riot. "So what if it's lame and imbalanced if we use 8 [profession]! We want that option to be overpowered!"

And of course, it's clear ANet has no idea how to react to all of this.

Zorian Direspell

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

09 Feb 2007 at 23:57 - 42

Hmm.... this just got me thinking ...

What if Avatar of Grenth said "whenever you hit with an attack, you lose an enchantment. If you lose an enchantment in this way, the stricken opponent loses an enchantment." That could make the skill more energy intense and more niche worthy than mandatory.

Also, what if the Leadership bonus equalled 1 for yourself + each non-Paragon ally in range?

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

10 Feb 2007 at 00:06 - 43

Quote:

Paragon

* "Stand Your Ground!": decreased recharge time to 30 seconds, decreased duration to 5..20 seconds.
* "They're on Fire!": decreased recharge time to 10 seconds, decreased duration to 10 seconds, decreased damage reduction to 5..35.
* Angelic Bond: increased Energy cost to 10, increased casting time to 2 seconds.
* Slayer's Spear: increased Energy cost to 10, decreased damage to 5..25.
* Vicious Attack: increased recharge time to 8 seconds.
* Cruel Spear: decreased damage to 1..31.
* "Incoming!": decreased duration to 1..3 seconds.

So basically they made all the good stuff so ridiculously expensive so a 2pip profession that there's no way you can use it without constant GTFE spam, which only is possible when you are constantly hitting stuff. Thanks to that, now blind, shield's up and stuff not only reduces DPS but also makes it too energy expensive to spam shouts.

Angelic Bond was killed, Incoming was nerfed again, Stand Your Ground is nerfed the third time(lol), nerfs to spear mastery, which already had damage reduced by 75% if enemy had shields up.

Apparently they have a problem with teams with 6 paragons actually winning, and in the process they nerfed it so hard that it is impossible to meaningfully contribute to the team as a single paragon.

Also paragon now officially has 0 good elites(perhaps focused anger but it is currently bugged). Would be super if anet made good skills like elite Anthem of Disenchanting or something instead of 15 million skills that remove conditions/heal on X skill type. Apparently the way to fixing their design blunders is paved with nerfs, since nerfing a class into total crap is preferable to deleting it(hard to justify all those work hours spent on it if you just delete it

)

Yeah well, at least they didn't touch my build.

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

10 Feb 2007 at 00:19 - 44

I think the problem is that they do not leave people time to react to a new flavor. Instead the overdo their nerfs.

They did not nerf IWAY for ages, as it was easily countered.

Now I can think of a similar ways, if not even to say exactly the same ways plus "shields up" to counter Paragon groups. Seems as if also nobody bothered to bring Ulcerous Lungs and other anti-shout skills.

They need to get the idea of balance again. Top or Flop is no fun, and they fail to find the healthy middle ground over and over!

exiled mat

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

The netherlands > friesland > balk

[JAMM] Justified Ancients of Moo Moo

E/Me

10 Feb 2007 at 00:27 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

Okay thats enough for me. Gaile may i have a question to the dev team or something doing the balances??? The paragon. Why do u nerf the paragon much more?? Well now you cant play with command skills (incoming,stand your.., only gfte is good atm), with motivation ( 10energy for 60 partyheal?and recharge time is 20) , and now you cant play with spear because these shit nerf for all attacks and such. Its disgusting. I think i will delete my paragon....

Maybe because they prolong the matches too long, so they nerf them because longer matches apperantly aren't fun :P (allmost every prolonging attribute has been nerfed, from bonding till absorption runes

)

Skuld

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]

A/

10 Feb 2007 at 00:30 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Seems as if also nobody bothered to bring Ulcerous Lungs and other anti-shout skills.

Ulcerous lungs causes bleeding, hardly a counter. Roaring winds increases shout cost and is a spirit with a long cooldown and cast time. The only dangerous one is Vocal Minority, which is a hex with a long recharge therefore easy to rip off. There are no real counters.

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

10 Feb 2007 at 00:35 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhearted

lawl. So anet finally gave in (to mass whineing) and nerfed grenth i see. They shouldn't have done that though. Cause now the community wont have anything to whine about.

There's still PVE whining about nerfs, which are far more common.

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

10 Feb 2007 at 00:46 - 48

HA just bit the big one. Bspike and IWAY groups back in force.......

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

10 Feb 2007 at 00:48 - 49

Paragons used to be good. Nerfing 'Incoming!' and 'Stand Your Ground' 3 times is bad, but they nerfed the offense too.... paragon's have almost NO use now unless you run the P/W thumper with Focused Anger and such.

sindex

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

California

Swords of Night & Day [SWRD]

10 Feb 2007 at 00:53 - 50

Good thing I got rid of my Pargon PvE character and made a Rit. At least it's not totally hopeless they might revert something by the time the next campaign comes out.

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

10 Feb 2007 at 01:11 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Roaring winds increases shout cost and is a spirit with a long cooldown and cast time.

So is NR and it is also about as good of a counter as NR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

The only dangerous one is Vocal Minority, which is a hex with a long recharge therefore easy to rip off. There are no real counters.

100% shutdown of a class aspect is pretty extreme. Imagine spammable AoE pacifism. That's pretty bad.

Also it doesn't need to stay up all the time to be a counter. Apparently Diversion didn't 100% prevent Air of Enchanting smite, but just reducing its potency is enough. Same here, just having this hex up half the time is a strong counter. Also this hex is ward size aoe, so vs teams with 5 paragons or so, it needs to be cleaned off several paragons every 20 sec, not a trivial task.

Severly underestimated skill vs mass paragons.

Btw I can give you next 2 anet's nerfs: GTFE -> 6 adren cost and Aggressive Refrain -> 15% IAS

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

10 Feb 2007 at 01:56 - 52

I've been defending the paragon rebalances up til now, but honestly this is getting silly. I understand the need to maintain balance for PvP but they need to throw PvE paragons a bone or two.

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

10 Feb 2007 at 01:59 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorian Direspell

Also, what if the Leadership bonus equalled 1 for yourself + each non-Paragon ally in range?

Makes sense. I mean, more than one "commander" shouting orders? It doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Same here, just having this hex up half the time is a strong counter. Also this hex is ward size aoe, so vs teams with 5 paragons or so, it needs to be cleaned off several paragons every 20 sec, not a trivial task.

Severly underestimated skill vs mass paragons.

Urm, Divert Hexes? Blessed Light? Expel Hexes? A slew of hex removals that are under 20 seconds recharge.

Ranger Li

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

New York

Eminent Apocalypse [Ea]

R/

10 Feb 2007 at 02:06 - 54

On the 8v8 Note, it's fantastic, the resurgeance of old builds are quite enjoyable and the variety/activity is just BUSTLING

I do hope it stays...sure iWay and Bloodspike are back..but so are so many others

Zaganher Deathbane

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2006

Las Vegas

N/

10 Feb 2007 at 02:28 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Surely the best way to stop these OP team builds is to limit the max number of a class you can take in a team in PvP.

I agree with Shanaeri. I think limiting the number of class in a team is the way to go for PVP. This way the PVEr's would still get the same or almost the same skill they were comfortable using and the PVP aspect would still be balanced without hampering the skills effect too much for PVE use. So everybody or the majority will be happy

baddog992

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2006

tsa

E/

10 Feb 2007 at 02:57 - 56

Ya im in favor of the the limit of classes in the pvp game of gvg and Ha great idea no more gimicky stuff just great skills vs great skills bar.

GODh

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

The Netherlands

BFTW and DLRR

10 Feb 2007 at 02:58 - 57

Why would PVE'ers even bother to try new professions in chapter 4?? After a few months there is not much left of those chars...

VitisVinifera

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Northern California

HoTR

N/Me

10 Feb 2007 at 03:01 - 58

man I just dont get it..........they have us do their playtesting for them (and spin it as an 'event'), then they pull some crap like this, totally ruining a pve class. This after ruining assassin in pve.

I understand it has something to do with HA (which I couldn't care less about), but they are taking all the fun out of the PvE aspect

Tachyon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Stoke, England

The Godless [GOD]

W/

10 Feb 2007 at 03:17 - 59

Quote:

In response to player feedback from last weekend, we are making the following permanent changes:

What player feedback? I'm a player yet I wasn't asked for any feedback!

Just what is the point of introducing new classes with a campaign if all you're going to do is nerf them out of the game a few months down the line? Or is it another case of listening to PvP players and totally ignoring the PvE players?

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

10 Feb 2007 at 03:23 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azagoth

What player feedback? I'm a player yet I wasn't asked for any feedback!

Just what is the point of introducing new classes with a campaign if all you're going to do is nerf them out of the game a few months down the line? Or is it another case of listening to PvP players and totally ignoring the PvE players?

There was plenty of opportunity to give feedback. I'm not fan of Anets communication policy, but there was opportunity this time. The fact that you were wilfully ignorant to things happening in Guild Wars is your own fault.

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

10 Feb 2007 at 03:30 - 61

Weee! The guru trolls are really out in force tonight! WOO HOO!!

The re-balancing of paragons in this update seems to be a bit harsh, yes. However, the changes were not that severe to the spear skills. Angelic Bond got hit very VERY VERY hard, it is lifebond now that can't be removed, but without the dmg reduction of the dmg taken from it, and with an elite status. Seems pretty crappy to me. Incoming... I haven't seen that run nearly as much since they got it the first time, and I live in halls. Poor Incoming, RIP.

Avatar of Grenth was incorrectly balanced. It should have a different effect, not a different recharge then the other avatars. So are they going to increase the duration of the other avatars again to 78 seconds? Hope they do. Grenth should cause 10 energy loss per enchantment stripped or it doesn't remove that enchant if the dervish doesn't have it. Or, personally, my favorite idea has been!

Avatar of Grenth: For the next 10...70 seconds you become the Avatar of Grenth. Your next 1...5 attack skills remove an enchantment from target foe. If any nearby foe dies while in this form, your enchantment removal amount is renewed. You deal cold damage. This skill is disabled for an 120 seconds after it is activated. (the wording sucks, hopefully you get the idea)

Divinus Stella

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Wales

Steel Phoenix

10 Feb 2007 at 03:41 - 62

Wow stop crying, grenth was never great in pve in the first place, it was just abused in gvg, angelic bond didnt see much light outside of pure paragon builds, never seen a paragon in pve using that skill.

Nerfing 3 spear attacks hardly made them useless in pve, if you were playing paragon just for spear attacks then you sucked in the first place, rangers do a much better job of launching sharp things if thats all you wish for.

Rakeman

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2006

10 Feb 2007 at 03:43 - 63

The paragon nerfs were uncalled for. Because of the 5% of Paragons that abuse builds, the other 95% suffer. I am getting tired of Anets constant "Nerfing fixes everything" ideals. Seriously... last time I was in HA, there were about 2 international districts. They are basing a change that completely screws over thousands and thousands of players based on those 2 districts. How about making a change to HA, not the Paragon? Make a limit of 2 of any profession on a team. Bam, all those annoying FOTM builds have been instantly destroyed, forcing the unheard of "Balanced Party" mechanism to come back. No more R-spike, B-spike, IWAY, Paraway, etc. Just good, old, balanced parties.

CDittric77

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

A Famous Small Town in PA

Saints of Avalon

R/Mo

10 Feb 2007 at 03:46 - 64

ANet doesn't randomly change skills, so I'm not going to freak out on the paragon issue until it's had some time to go through the wash cycle. It probably won't end up as bad and develop into a profession that requires thought and skill to use (much like the beloved Mesmer).

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

10 Feb 2007 at 04:00 - 65

hmm...I'm honestly very dissapointed in this update. To an extent I could understand the nerfs on Paragon defensive skills, but nerfing their attack skill leaves them very crippled, especially for anyone that wants to use the class in PvE.

Pete_Lefeu

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Aug 2006

Quebec

Gardiens du Lys [LYS]

W/

10 Feb 2007 at 04:04 - 66

Angelic bond was used more than you think in PvE. We use paragons to do elite mission (yes we did). We were first using incoming before the big nerf. When they nerfed it, we used angelic bond. It was a really good damage disher but now... Wow... can't even counter a spike or anything...

Paragon are killed since they reduce everything... They're no more enjoyable as PvE or PvP char...

The only way I can see Anet wants us to play paragon are like ranger... condition spreader... well if you want us to play paragon like that, give us a barrage spear skill.

if you read this ANet well just to tell you one thing. If you continue with those nerf that kills certain class and that concentrate the abuse on another class and nerf again and so on, you'll lose player. I know a game can't be perfect but come on... everything in this game have a counter. Let the players learn how to oRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer other build, but don't nerf them so that we won't need counter and only see 2 or 3 build.

and also, 8vs8 is fun for a weekend to see IWAY and bloodspike back, but hard as hell to get a group and that won't quit. There's almost no teamplay, free for all. in 6vs6 you needed coordination, communication and skills.

Rakeman

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2006

10 Feb 2007 at 04:08 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete_Lefeu

if you read this ANet well just to tell you one thing. If you continue with those nerf that kills certain class and that concentrate the abuse on another class and nerf again and so on, you'll lose player. I know a game can't be perfect but come on... everything in this game have a counter. Let the players learn how to oRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer other build, but don't nerf them so that we won't need counter and only see 2 or 3 build.

All I know is, I am sick of Anet nerfing so many people's builds because they can't design a balanced game. Anet needs to face it... HA is always going to have gimmick builds... if that is what the players want, let them have it, so that the fun can stop being ruined for all the people who don't play HA religiously (which is by far the majority of players). Or make changes to HA itself so that it doesn't allow gimmick builds somehow, instead of nerfing everybody who plays the game.

baddog992

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2006

tsa

E/

10 Feb 2007 at 04:40 - 68

Um no there slowly killing the paragon line, look at the nerfs, how can you say that they are improving the paragon line? Um no, nerf bat has hit hard on the paragon class. I realy dont see any reason now to take a paragon over almost any other class, I would love to see the limited number of one class in the game for gvg, and or ha, would make things more interesting then nerfin one class to death.

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

10 Feb 2007 at 04:46 - 69

Well they finally nerfed my favourite "Theyre on Fire" build but I can see why they did it. It was too good. But am I going to cry about it? No, I'll move on to other things.

Rakeman

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2006

10 Feb 2007 at 04:54 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Well they finally nerfed my favourite "Theyre on Fire" build but I can see why they did it. It was too good. But am I going to cry about it? No, I'll move on to other things.

That's the problem. They should be making "overpowered" builds BALANCED, not USELESS. That is a concept Anet does not seem to understand. At least let me trade in "Incoming" for a new Sig of Cap so I can get something worth having.

gasmaskman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

None, I don't play anymore.

Mo/W

10 Feb 2007 at 04:58 - 71

I think Incoming! should be 5 energy now, there's no reason to leave it at 10, AT ALL.

cce

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2005

10 Feb 2007 at 04:59 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Surely the best way to stop these OP team builds is to limit the max number of a class you can take in a team in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

seconded. No reason to have more than 3 of ANY class. The exception is MAYBE elementalists, assuming they run different elements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaganher Deathbane

I agree with Shanaeri. I think limiting the number of class in a team is the way to go for PVP. This way the PVEr's would still get the same or almost the same skill they were comfortable using and the PVP aspect would still be balanced without hampering the skills effect too much for PVE use. So everybody or the majority will be happy

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog992

Ya im in favor of the the limit of classes in the pvp game of gvg and Ha great idea no more gimicky stuff just great skills vs great skills bar.

Interesting. I'd make it across the board though, PvP and PvE. I think that PvE teams of 3-monks 3-elementalists, etc. are quite... well, unfair to players of other classes that don't want to run the build de jour. Perhaps you could do it via skills.... only permit 2 copies of a given skill across all 8 players.

Shadow_7

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

Raiders of Gilead

W/R

10 Feb 2007 at 05:00 - 73

Hey the Paragon still good for something; a good mule!!!

MMSDome

Raged Out

Join Date: Sep 2005

10 Feb 2007 at 05:10 - 74

more killing of the paragon, they obviously see something we dont.

Rakeman

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2006

10 Feb 2007 at 05:23 - 75

I'm just glad they made this update before I bought my 15k paragon armor... literally, the next area I was gonna get to had my armor. Now I am gonna think twice.

Feminist Terrorist

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Oh Noes! The 'burbs!

10 Feb 2007 at 05:25 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

Hey the Paragon still good for something; a good mule!!!

Exactly. That's what I'm turning mine into. Now I need to sell my Wandalz and other paragon shields. *sigh*

Rakeman

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2006

10 Feb 2007 at 05:28 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feminist Terrorist

Exactly. That's what I'm turning mine into. Now I need to sell my Wandalz and other paragon shields. *sigh*

I'll pay you 5k for the Wandalz... I figure that is probably what it's worth after this update.

Antithesis

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

BrisneyLand

Sphincter Says [What]

W/

10 Feb 2007 at 05:36 - 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakeman

The paragon nerfs were uncalled for. Because of the 5% of Paragons that abuse builds, the other 95% suffer. I am getting tired of Anets constant "Nerfing fixes everything" ideals. Seriously... last time I was in HA, there were about 2 international districts. They are basing a change that completely screws over thousands and thousands of players based on those 2 districts. How about making a change to HA, not the Paragon? Make a limit of 2 of any profession on a team. Bam, all those annoying FOTM builds have been instantly destroyed, forcing the unheard of "Balanced Party" mechanism to come back. No more R-spike, B-spike, IWAY, Paraway, etc. Just good, old, balanced parties.

/signed

I'm with you on this one. Limit the number of people per class per team and many of the balance issues go away. Almost every PvE team i use has at most 1 or 2 paragons (or monks, or rangers, or ele's), when was the last time anyone ran an 8 man PvE (non-farming) build that all use the same class?

Continually nerfing viable builds that work very well when run in a balanced team build, with at most 2 or 3 of any one class, demonstrates a fundamental problem with the mechanics of PvP. It's the number of players on a team running a build and the impact that has on skill balance that is the exploit, not the skillbars of the individual players.

Nerf the numbers of each class allowed per team, leave the skillbars usable for the rest of us.

Orinn

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Defiant Dragons

10 Feb 2007 at 05:56 - 79

I'm almost regretting that I actually made a paragon now. Good thing I didn't spend TOO much time on him, he'll still be a good mule.

MegaMouse

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

south mississippi

Warriors Of Melos WOM

E/N

10 Feb 2007 at 06:05 - 80

Aparently several players do not know that NC-Soft is the makers of the game and not Arena -Net. Look at the box players not at teh logo's. Areana-Net only hosted the game when it first came out it never made it, they only stream the content to us even now, they have no say in what is or isn't done with the game except for which servers are used. Dont say things that you do not know. For the OP and the rest who do know this I am sorry about this but some players need a wake up call. Also to our very patient webmasters whom I probably have poed with this post.
As far as the Nerf bat I do believe like I have said in teh past that it needs retired before it ruins the game further.
A little more on this rant: Who do we go to whenever we have any problems with the game? Not A-Net but NC-Soft the makers of the game.

Here is the link to the support site for you disbelievers: http://www.plaync.com/us/support/prod_48.html

Taken straight from Arenanet.coms website :
Located in Bellevue, Washington, ArenaNet is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Korea-based NCsoft Corporation. The studio was formed in the spring of 2000 with the goal of creating a state-of-the-art interactive game network, and of developing premier multiplayer, online games. Having built such a network, ArenaNet continues to improve upon it, keeping stride with current technology and offering new and innovative approaches, such as a subscription-free business model, instanced missions, and streaming updates, which eliminate the need for patching.

ArenaNet's diverse staff has come together from many different countries and cultures. The team members speak a variety of languages, which—with the common bond of a love for games—helps them understand the needs of the global gaming community, and allows them to listen and respond to feedback from fans around the world. In keeping with the spirit of bringing people together, ArenaNet designs and operates servers that allow gamers to play with anyone, anytime, anywhere in the world.

.

Mega Mouse