Update - Friday February 9

I have to agree with the overall consensus of this thread... the PvE paragon suffers tremendously because of the abuse of the PvP paragon, and it simply isn't fair to the playerbase.

A single Paragon used to be a welcome member of a balanced PvE team, but now they are virtually useless as a support character, or anything else for that matter.

A far more fair solution would be, as has already been suggested, limit the number of party members in PvP to X or less of a single primary profession... 2 or 3 or whatever, if the main reason for all these nerfs is 6-8 paragons running around chaining skills in a particular way.

Stop letting PvP exploits destroy the PvE experience. There has to be a way to balance PvP without trashing PvE in the process, and the paragon nerf is a prime example of just how much this affects the playerbase.

Like I said in the other site, may be instead of limiting a certain class per team, why not limit the use of a certain skill per team instead. Cause limiting a certain class per team would sometimes force a member to use a class he's not comfortable playing. As I've noticed, the skill becomes overpowered if used for more than the devs intended it to be used. Thus, a skill that seems not too powerful but if used for more than once in a team tend to be a headache for other players to handle

Wrong. Anet is the game developer and studio that MAKES Guild Wars. NCSoft may own Anet but they DONT make the game. NCSoft is the big boss but they are not the creators of the game.

Agreed entirely. This is really getting out of hand. I can honestly say that, for the first time since I started playing GW, I have started looking around at other online RPGs. Maybe I will wait a few months after chapter 4 comes out to see what kind of shenanigans they pull on that one, so that I don't waste my time working so hard on a character that gets trashed because of abusive PvP players. I loved my Paragon... sigh.

The nerfs are "destroying the PVE experience?" Arent you guys overreacting just a tad? I thought the repetitive nature of PVE is what is making PVE unfun.

Nope. Now, Paragons are basically worthless. I just captured "Incoming!" today, before the update. I was so excited, and I made up a bunch of fun builds with it right away. It was an awesome skill, and it made me feel like I was really benefiting my team. Then, the update came, and when I saw that ridiculous 3 second duration, I was... well... lets just say a tad bit annoyed. Especially since the last 2 updates were filled with anti-paragon changes. This was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak... they completely destroyed several great skills and damaged others. I went through my builds and I had trouble finding any that weren't severely damaged since a month ago. All because of the fact that 6 paragons spamming shouts at each other is overpowered in HA.

However, I hope Anet realizes the irony in what they did. By nerfing the Paragons in such a way, they are ONLY useful in large groups, basically slightly nerfing the abusers and completely destroying the people who played the class like it was meant to be played.

The fact is, when decent skills are completely destroyed because people abuse them, yes, it does run my game experience.

Looks like the paragon and rit switched. Rits are now useful as paragons are now useless.

All the paragons dmg reduction has been hit. Their healing ability hit. Now more nerfs to the spear.

Anet just delete the paragon and save yourself and players the trouble.

How about instead of just nerfing everything they have to oblivion put a limit on how many allies the shouts can affect at one time. That makes 1-2 paragons useful while a full team would be redundant.

This sucks, I liked paras .

Not to mention the fact you could run an empty skillbar, no armor, and seven henchmen and easily complete any standard PvE area.

I guess i was wrong earlier, there's still one person who will complain about it. Even if that relatively low armor melee owns them for a significantly lower time now...

What about fact that anet graciously ignored big WTF from Paragon players.

and again....mesmers didn't get the buff.
What in the name of Hell must i do to make ANet buff the bloody mesmer!?!?

My Paragon is going on strike. I won't log in as my Paragon until I think the skills that got nerfed in this update have been properly fixed.

There was absolutely no reason to nerf the damage on Cruel Spear. It's inferior to Eviserate as it is.

They're on Fire is now only useful at 16 attribute. I really can't see anyone specializing that high in Leadership just for They're on fire.

They already nerfed the energy cost for Stand your Ground in the last update. Why nerf it so that it costs the player even more energy in this update?

Incoming is now impossible to use. It was difficult to time it so that you could catch a warrior or assassin's spike chain with a 5 second duration, even if you knew exactly when it was coming. With 3 seconds, it's worse than Otyugh's Cry. At least Otyugh's Cry trys to keep your pet alive. A 3 second Incoming can't keep anyone alive.

Wow..we are learning so much from your PvE experience mighty one, post useful reply to those who lost their favorite character and skills or don't post at all..mod.

ok pve'ers, you will last 2 secs longer to kill some mindless mob, who cares?

the paragons were overpowered in pvp, because there are really few counters to them.

Mesmer is fine as is, although I think they overnerfed Spiritual pain and esurge didnt need to be nerfed (it's an elite cmon), Mantra of recovery on the other hand got a huge buff. Back to the para discussion yes I do think nerfing incoming is increably stupid, it's an elite for god shake 3 secs for 10 energy? Well that might still be useful in a 8 para team but nowhere else. It seems to me that when Anet nerfed something it usually never being use again (Ether Renewal, Energizing Finale and Divine Boon are a few). And if you still like the skill it will get nerf again.

I can't say that I am happy that they nerfed cruel. It didn't seem totally unbalanced to me and it didn't cause any rediculous situations... whereas angelic bond did. I saw a guild with a 3k ranking put together an angelic bond based build and they made it into the 20s because you can't actually hurt ANYTHING once the build is up and running, and since you have around a minute before any realistic fighting can begin there is basically no room for disruption. Yay for the bond nerf. Nerfing any of the other paragon defensive skills makes sense as well since the stacking on them is astoundingly effective. Crying about incoming is really a misunderstanding of the skill. It was never, in my opinion, meant to be an antipressure skill but rather a hard counter to spiking. As such, if it were used as intended it shouldn't matter if it lasted 3 seconds or 10. A skilled player has it up when the spike comes and the skill works as intended. Of course, the incoming chaining is what caused the repeated nerfs. The other two spear attacks never really gathered my interest much. Since the cruel nerf hit wasn't terribly hard, I'd say the GFTE guy is still very powerful as an offensive character and will be run quite a bit. If you honestly can't find a way to abuse paragon skills in PvE though...

It seems that you never ever played pve before.

In pve somewhere you need more experience to go foward than pvp. And actually you deal half damage on 24< mobs.

And whatever you will last 10minutes longer to kill 6 paras, who cares??

And in gvg dont tell me that you cant split into 2 teams against paras...

I find it funny how hardcore PVPers generally thumb their noses at PVEers who have everything nerfed to crap constantly on them, and the PVPers say it doesn't matter since PVE is so easy --- yet those same PVPers are the ones who whine incessantly on fansites for nerfs to happen on any common and effective PVP build that they are not skilled enough to beat. Therefore PVP is too hard for the nose-thumbing PVPers, but they have the luxury of having Anet nerf anything they can't beat in PVP because it is too hard for them (often with multiple distinct nerfs to the same thing after even once the first few nerfs are done, the PVP players still can't win against the overly-nerfed skills), and then they have the audacity to claim PVE is easier than PVP.

The hardcore PVPers who do that might reasonably be able to thumb their noses at PVEers when and if they themselves stop crying incessantly for everything to be nerfed, but of course that will never happen. In a way I would say the PVEers' attitude is more respectable and PVE is indeed harder, because the PVEers don't whine for nerfs constantly and then have those nerfs delivered by the devs.

Reading this thread I don't think it's fair to just complain about the Paragon nerfs. Dervish avatars got ridiculously nerfed twice in a matter of weeks. Dervish and Paragon were already way over-nerfed after the PVP preview for NF.

Doesn't seem fair to me that Anet sells the game directly on certain selling points, then nerfs many of those selling points to crap a few months later after the sales are made. Ie: Heroes being allowed in PVP then getting the ability to use them in PVP gets nerfed, Dervish avatars supposed to be very powerful skills that summon the power of the gods then they get nerfed multiple times etc. etc.

What Anet should do is start adopting an anti-nerf mentality, and very rarely ever nerf anything. The hardcore PVP players who are not skilled enough to counter the skills as they were originally designed should learn to play better instead of having the "whine about it incessantly until Anet nerfs it for us" mentality which ends up ruining the game for the majority of players every time Anet swings the nerf bat. Those who cry for anything to be nerfed are always a very small minority of the playerbase anyhow - so why cater to them?

Ugh. Such horrible logic. You cant honestly believe the garbage you just wrote.

Truth hurts?

Sure I believe it, and reality bears it out therefore it's not garbage. You wanna try to refute it, go ahead, and be specific with where the logic is wrong. Maybe start by naming one common & effective build in Guild Wars' history used in Tombs or GVG that hasn't been nerfed to smithereens after whining by PVP players.

All you've done is prove the point that the problem stems from PvP, not PvE.
When is 1 or 2 paragons / necro's / mesmers etc ever a real threat on their own in PvP? Bundle 6 or 8 of them together and there's your problem!

It's the mechanics of PvP that are ruining it for PvE. I agree, most PvE is relatively easy...so what? But the constant nerfing of BALANCED PvE builds to satisfy UNBALANCED PvP is ruining the game for me.

I, and i dare say most others, came originally to GW to PvE and dabble occasionally in PvP. Give me the peace and quiet of Heroes and Henchies any day over the constant FOTM exploits, abuse and elitism of even low-level PvP.

I sense yet another PvP vs. PvE brawl on the horizon. When will Anet just own up and realise that PvP and PvE are like cats and dogs: Some people are dog people, some are cat people, a handful love both, but you can't force dogs on the cat people, and you can't force cats on the dog people. The two must simply remain separate, as they will never get along.


EDIT: For the record, I am quite upset about the recent "balances" for the Paragon. I now have no reason to play my Paragon, and she will be my new mule until new "balances" make her useful again. It's not a nerf, it's castration. Don't think so? Tell me one thing the Paragon can do better than any other class, just one.

QFT.

They should fire their balancer, his latest actions were again not balancing, but destruction.

He does not get the concept of balance. It is definitely not making a skill so obviously powerful that there is no question of not using it or to nerf it to hell that it does not even deserve a place on any skillbar anymore.

The next problem is the "nerfed because of HA" focus. It was PvP in general before, but now it is also so terribly focused on HA.

Do they really believe they make the halls more attractive by giving them the top priority when fixing skills?

HA is only one mode of PvP. One! And a damn unpopular one, HA is totally empty, except on this weekend maybe. And I doubt it stays like this. There is GvG, RA, TA, Hero Battles... and AB, PvE and whatever. They must be taken in account as well.

I absolutely agree, annoying and driving away the huge majority of players and especially Paragon players atm because of this is a mistake.

Care to actually back this up? Everything that is nerfed for PVP has been a problem everywhere, Grenth in GVG, Grenth in HA, Searing Flames in GVG, Searing Flames in HA, Steady Stance in GVG, Steady Stance in HA, mass Paragon teams in GVG, mass Paragon teams in HA, Jagged Bones soul reaping abuse in GVG, Jagged Bones soul reaping abuse in HA.

It's *easier* to abuse broken stuff in HA, but it gets abused everywhere else for the most, except where you need to have everyone on your team in synch for it to work (RA).

Wow...

Do they try balance this game around HA or GvG, because they are taking impossible task as long HA is 3 teams with changing goal if they try balance pvp around HA.

I forgot who said it, but the game is balanced on GvG, HA and farming. The rest do not need top priority as imbalances are generally not gamebreaking.

But the question remains - why do these imbalances occur in HA and to a lesser extent GvG? It's because balance is not encouraged when you can just throw together 6 faction farmers with cheesy FOTM builds and march through more experienced players running balanced builds. There's no incentive to play a balanced build when cheese beats rocks, paper and scissors!

I seriously doubt Anet will ever limit the numbers of each profession on a PvP team. But it should be considered as an option when i'm guessing they don't design character classes and skills with 6-8 of the same build necro's, para's, thumpers, touchers, iways or ele's in mind, thereby making it a crapload harder to properly balance the skills for the way most people would like to use them. The game and skills appear to be designed with 1 or 2 players of the same profession per team in mind like a healer and a protector, an ss and an mm, a motivator and a leader, an interrupter and a barrager, an SF and a sandstormer etc... 1 or 2 on their own won't devastate the opposition, but even 3 or 4 can become a serious hindrance.

Ok, that's it. I'm going to stop playing with my Paragon now. I might even try to salvage the sup vigor rune from her and delete the character.

I am boycotting my Paragon until ANet un-nerf it. I don't care about PvP lamoes who are too tight to take the necro skills that are the bane of Paragons. PvE is still the largest part of the game for most GW players, and these nerfs have made the Paragon a lot less desirable.

WTB a rit spike nerf paying good whisper me

People who focus on PvE care - and that's most of the GW community.

LOL, there are counters. The problem is that PvP noobs were too cheap to bring along those skills because they were only really useful versus Paragons and didn't want to lose any skill slots for battles against other teams.

What is it with people always using the term "PvE Scrub", PvE players are equal to pvp players in their opinions, they paid the same (usually more due to CE) amount of money as pvp players and like it or not pve makes up the largest part of the community. If every pve player quit it would not bode well for the future of guild wars.

Makes me sick seing that term used all the time, nothing but offensive for no reason at all.

Now I've seen everything. PVE'ers calling PVP players "noobs" when they themselves dont even PVP. I'm not saying one is better than the other but the logic there is idiotic. It's like an electrician telling a plumber how to fix the plumbing.

And yes, calling people PVE scrubs is equally as bad.

PvP'ers may not be noobs, but HA has a distinct odour of cheese.

This is the attitude that will break their neck, Skuld.

I remember this statement (it was from Isaiah Cartwright) from the Games Convention and several times before, and his interpretation of his own words boil down to this:

Give a damn about PvE when balancing skills.

This is just wrong. Add in the usual condescending comment about PvE being shit in general. It should not be. It is their bread and butter and what sells the game, regardless of their constant tries to make their often not really that attractive PvP modes (read HA) more attractive.

They cannot afford Izzy's attitude that hardly any skill balancing can break PvE. They need to provide a challenging and fun PvE experience as well, not C-Space till you meet Shiro and DoA. Story and immersive graphics cannot make up for this lacking PvE level design forever. - The lack of a balanced PvE experience is not only related to skill nerfs and buffs though.



I wanted to add this before, but now I will put it on the end, found no better place/thread:



- I just read some other skills got changed, too. Would not wonder if they buffed or nerfed some of the skills nobody bothered with so far, gotta check this later.

Edit: Turned out to be wrong info. Checked and found no other changes.

How about they lower the hitpoints of monsters, lower their damage and just lower their level everytime there is a skill balance so that any nerfed skills will still massacre them? Make it so that it would be the same effectiveness before nerfs. Would that make you people stop complaining that nerfs have made PVE less fun?

i agree. IWAY was nerfed quite late, and only because beginners couldn't beat them. Now zergway was nerfed because newbies couldn't beat them. Mesmers were nerfed because some moaned.

Will anyone listen to more experienced players?!

This is actually a good point. In PvP, the balance affects everyone equally. In PvE, the balance affects the PvE'ers only - the enemy AI still has an advantage due to their higher attributes. Basically, PvE'ers are forced to use inferior skills to beat buffed AI. If ANet insists on making things comfy-cozy for PvP'ers by balancing the skills across the players, make comparable adjustments to enemy AI.
ETA: I'm referring primarily to the enemy AI in places like DoA.

For me it has little to do with the difficulty of PvE. I'll cop whatever nerf comes my way, adapt and still love the game. It has to do with the reasoning behind the nerf and that is imbalances in PvP, specifically cheesy exploitative HA farming builds.

They've nerfed the hell out of PvE farming (eg AOE nerf killed a good percentage of skills Anet themselves designed so we could take on numerically superior mobs) which i personally do for some challenging solo fun. They've killed off running and power-levelling to force us through the campaign for the umpteenth time to get all of our toons up to lvl20 or to capture a late-game elite (i have 3 accounts, 30+ characters, no way in hell i have the time for that). Didn't they create the Drok's run and troll cave for that exact purpose? So why not nerf the HA farmers looking for their shiny e-peen Phoenix emote by killing the cause of the problem - no limitations on players per class per team resulting in unexpected skill imbalances because the game wasn't built for a team 6 by X. Set it to 3 per profession and watch the metagame transform overnight.