Any point in Paragons anymore?

Kakumei

Kakumei

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Grind is subjective

learn this please

12 Feb 2007 at 02:27 - 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
I wanted to know if there was even a point to using Paragons anymore in groups in PvE. I think the replies I've gotten clearly show not. A bit of this and that really isn't good enough - it's an ineffective mish mash that is better served by using core classes in almost every area. A bit of warrior and a bit of monk? No thanks.
Why did you start the thread if you already had your answer, and had no intentions of actually listening to anything said?

As Ensign detailed above, spears are certainly not to be ignored--especially not while Aggressive Refrain is as ridiculous as it is.

Zinger314

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

12 Feb 2007 at 02:39 - 42
Stop ignoring the ToF Tank build, people. It's still effective, even with the ToF nerf.

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

12 Feb 2007 at 03:51 - 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Autoattack DPS, 16 Weapon Mastery, 60 AL, level 20 target:

Sword: 25.59
Axe: 26.66
Hammer: 29.35
Dagger: 25.83
Spear: 26.15
Scythe: 29.81

(Daggers at 13 Critical Strikes).

Swords, axes and spears have roughly equivilent raw DPS.

Paragons however get Aggressive Refrain, which they can maintain indefinitely at no cost for a +33% DPS boost. Other physicals need to use weaker attack speed boosts to achieve similar effect.

"Go for the Eyes!" is amazing. It's worth roughly 8 damage per physical at 0 spec, plus .8 for each level. Ballpark value with Aggressive Refrain up:

(10+<command>)*<physicals on team>*8/45

Value of "Go for the Eyes!" at 10 Command with 5 physicals on the team: ~18 DPS.

One copy of "Go for the Eyes!" on a physical-heavy team is about 2/3 of an autoattacking Axe Warrior.

Rough DPS of a Paragon with *only* Aggressive Refrain and Go For the Eyes on hit bar: 52

Rough DPS of well built and played Dragon Slash Warrior: 55-60 DPS.


Spears being easy to kite is ridiculous. I've never seen anyone who actively kited spears. If you want to bring kiting into this, hi, we're comparing Paragons to *Warriors*. Melee is weakened by kiting an order of magnitude more than spear dodges.

Peace,
-CxE
:O didnt realise those 2 skills made paragon so potent.. i knew the autoattack was good but :O

average DPS of a wand is 13.32, a 15^50 wand is about 15...

aggressive refrain can be kept up continously, but its a pain in pve to stop between fights , so there is a annoyance factor

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

12 Feb 2007 at 04:39 - 44
Yes...because I'm still using my Paragon hero most of the time. They provide better spike than bow

Aerian_Skybane

Aerian_Skybane

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

House of Caeruleous [HoC]

R/E

12 Feb 2007 at 04:48 - 45
My paragon dayjobs as a spear using basic Para, with anthem of flame, ToF, GftE, a few spear skills, watch out. Its still effective. Sad that they are still nerfing the para for HA, which I have never played nor intend to, but eh.

He moonlights as a melee Para along the lines of Zinger's axe build, but I use sword skills (which btw a Paragon wielding a sword is supremely awesome looking, but thats besides the point). It is hectic and fun, especially when I want a respite from the back lines. He is extremely effective and not only pulls aggro quite well, but I can maintain it and not die. I have outlast Wammos with the build, and everything burns around me. Quite fun.

Still, I don't support nerfing a build just for HA. The ToF nerf really hit home.

cosyfiep

cosyfiep

are we there yet?

Join Date: Dec 2005

in a land far far away

guild? I am supposed to have a guild?

Rt/

12 Feb 2007 at 05:58 - 46
my paragon makes a wonderful mule.....maybe I will play her again when I am feeling like it, but for now, nope---have enough support charcters. (though I did change my rit/e to rit/p so I can cap all the elites for my heros!)

Kook~NBK~

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2005

A little chalet outside Drok's

Natural Born Killaz

12 Feb 2007 at 06:40 - 47
I deleted my PvE Paragon. Before the nerf, I hadn't played it a lot, wasn't having much fun playing it, and hadn't figured out a good skill set for it (even after testing most of the builds posted here). So along comes the nerf, making it even more of a challenge to sort out. That was enough for me. I replaced it with a Dervish (now that the Derv. crowd has died down some - LOL), and have been having a blast with it.

Patrick Smit

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

NiTe

12 Feb 2007 at 06:59 - 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Autoattack DPS, 16 Weapon Mastery, 60 AL, level 20 target:

Sword: 25.59
Axe: 26.66
Hammer: 29.35
Dagger: 25.83
Spear: 26.15
Scythe: 29.81

(Daggers at 13 Critical Strikes).

Swords, axes and spears have roughly equivilent raw DPS.

Paragons however get Aggressive Refrain, which they can maintain indefinitely at no cost for a +33% DPS boost. Other physicals need to use weaker attack speed boosts to achieve similar effect.

"Go for the Eyes!" is amazing. It's worth roughly 8 damage per physical at 0 spec, plus .8 for each level. Ballpark value with Aggressive Refrain up:

(10+<command>)*<physicals on team>*8/45

Value of "Go for the Eyes!" at 10 Command with 5 physicals on the team: ~18 DPS.

One copy of "Go for the Eyes!" on a physical-heavy team is about 2/3 of an autoattacking Axe Warrior.

Rough DPS of a Paragon with *only* Aggressive Refrain and Go For the Eyes on hit bar: 52

Rough DPS of well built and played Dragon Slash Warrior: 55-60 DPS.


Spears being easy to kite is ridiculous. I've never seen anyone who actively kited spears. If you want to bring kiting into this, hi, we're comparing Paragons to *Warriors*. Melee is weakened by kiting an order of magnitude more than spear dodges.

Peace,
-CxE
Amen to the above, paragons don't need to follow the target, they just chuck another spear ^^ (every 1.2 sec or so).

Complement with anthem of flame and focused anger (elite), you'll be firing of GFTY a lot. You can use barbed spear to spread degen that can be complemented with anthem of flame, giving everyone burning capacity when thye use an attack skill. Merciless spear is nice to finish with. with GFTY anthem of flame in your group its very interesting to take an mm and physicals in group.

Many people say Paragons are dead meat in parties. IMHO i think they are just not explored well by most players. There is probably much more u can squeeze out.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

12 Feb 2007 at 07:14 - 49
I always take Morghan with me to any remotely challenging area, along with olias MM and zhed searing flames. GftE affects all the minions giving them a ton of damage, Zhed sets everything on fire and ToF protects the entire party plus makes sturdier minions. Seeing how well paragons synergize with two very popular PvE builds, it's really silly that they aren't finding their way into more PuGs.

Shadowfox1125

Shadowfox1125

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

PST

W/

12 Feb 2007 at 07:19 - 50
I still use my Paragon, in both PvE and PvP. Plus, if you don't want to use yours, just make him/her a mule.. Trust me, later you'll regret deleting your Para.

oinkers

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

12 Feb 2007 at 07:42 - 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
If you played a Paragon from the beginning and didn't expect a nerf, you are clearly delusional.
No need to resort to name calling - I find this a lot on gwguru, especially with those saying Paragons are somehow still useful despite 3 repeated nerfs.

As for the various other builds posted, I dont think choosing GFTE/ToF and then bulk-filling the remaining 6 slots is convincing at all. Spear still has lower DPS than axe or sword.

You can't make a class out of only 2 useful skills.

Chunk

Chunk

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2007

Mo/N

12 Feb 2007 at 07:48 - 52
Paragons are only good for secondary proffessions. I rest my case. No rebutles please.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

12 Feb 2007 at 07:48 - 53
New ele = SF + GG. Rest of their bar is gravy. NF's balance is just that bad.

Lagg

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

12 Feb 2007 at 07:49 - 54
Paragons suffer from the ailment known as Ritualitis.

They fulfill no specific role, being general support characters instead. Sure, they have buffs for themselves and their party, mostly alternatives to Monk enchantments. Now, these would be rather balanced if teams used them "as Anet intended". One Paragon (and/or Ritualist) per party acting as mid-line support.

Of course, people don't play this game "as Anet intended". Rather, they've found out that the only way that these professions can beat established builds is by making gimmicky builds consisting of nothing but these Monk alternatives. Ritualist Ritual Lord Doom-spike and Paragon holding with Incoming and Angelic Bond. And that's it. Anet nerfes these gimmicky builds and destroys both professions in the process. People already didn't want a Paragon or Ritualist as a general support character and now they definitely don't.

Why would you use a Paragon anyway? Rangers are better ranged attackers, Monks (and Earth Eles with Wards) are better buffers, Warriors (and Eles) have more AL.

Ah well, no biggie, people will simply forget about them when Chapter 4 comes out.

oinkers

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

12 Feb 2007 at 07:50 - 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hand Of Death
If Paragons are so useless then why has Paraway been making it to halls this special weekend?

~Death~

Read the original post. I was talking about a Paragon in PvE. There are (believe or not) actually players who dont actually care about halls, despite the whining that goes on around here sometimes.

Next time, stay on-topic.

oinkers

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

12 Feb 2007 at 07:53 - 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBat
New ele = SF + GG. Rest of their bar is gravy. NF's balance is just that bad.
Well, yes. Balance since NF has come out is bad, and getting worse due to repeated mindless nerfs. But eles have more than just SF+GG, they play snares, earth tanks, spikers (well, not much these days), or a different style of nuker with MS.

Paragons? It's always GFTE/ToF/Anthem of Flame. Predictable as hell.

Age

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

12 Feb 2007 at 08:05 - 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame
Maybe you should stop using paragons as monk and start using them differently.
Let's take the warrior for example, it has Watch Yourself, which is a great skill, it adds ~20 armor to all party members, but does a warrior put only watch yourself , shields up? No, cause that means hes limiting his effectiveness.

Try putting 3 attack skills on your bar, 3 support skills a healing and a res on your bar, you'd be amazed at how much more a paragon can do then just heal.
It was the Paragon that got Watchyourself nerfed in the first place as it help keep thier chants and shouts stay up longer.I just thank those who did this now in helping providing addition armour for castors.There is nothing wrong with the Paragon in PvE as they perfectly fine as I am useing one right now to cap the Avatars for heros.I did manage to get into a group at the Consulate Docks and the ones who died the most were The Dervs.They are just fine to play in PvE even with the nerfs

I can understand the nerfs that were needed when an 8 man GvG match can take on a guild and do it so fast.This is the reason that they got it in first place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO69dPgGmhMWhen you see this you will know why and btw they are the 2nd class to have highest armour rating The Warrior being the 1st.They aren't gimped in PvE .

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

12 Feb 2007 at 08:23 - 58
Crippling anthem = auto-cripple for all your physical attackers. Not that snare usually matters much in PvE. (How many water eles have you seriously seen there?)

ToF is an unremovable aegis that doesn't need chaining and works against elemental and armor-ignoring attacks. You could pull things slowly so that aggro actually sticks to some stoneflesh tank and get everyone to stand inside layers of wards, or you can turn your entire party into tanks and get on with the killing. You can even do both at the same time if you really want that much defense.

Paras aren't so great with the AoE damage, it's true, but I'm not sure what you'd expect there. Ensign already put out the numbers for single-target damage which they excel at, but if numbers and logic won't convince you, I'm not sure what will. If you're personally finding the results suck, there is no excuse not to bring one of their excellent IAS skills such as aggressive refrain, or spamming bleeding and deep wound better than a sword warrior. Bows don't even begin to compare for physical damage unless you're using barrage in dense areas.

Finally, they can make a monstrous healing machine and condition removal, IF you mass them, and trigger finale and chorus of restoration over and over. A solo motivation paragon is generally pretty bad though.

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

12 Feb 2007 at 08:29 - 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
Is there any point using Paragons anymore in PvE? It's been 3 back-to-back nerfs and no buffs of any significant whatsoever. Incoming is now 1...3 seconds, and flashes it's about to finish the moment it starts - it's not even funny anymore.
Incoming IS just rediculous. I fail to see the justification for nerfing it AGAIN. Let's look at the Monk line, in particular, Protection Prayers. The skill Life Barrier...with enough in Protection it also reduces damage by half and that skill has not been touched and you can keep it on for as long as you want. So...what's with the "Incoming!" hate? Personally, instead of just having it as this joke they really might as well remove it from the game completely because, like Spiritual Pain, there's just no point having it on your skillbar now. My Paragon will have to find another elite to Play with....I'd best not say anything about that though because any ANet staff reading this might decide to nerf that one too...

Edge Martinez

Edge Martinez

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

NC

DKL

12 Feb 2007 at 08:48 - 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
Read the original post. I was talking about a Paragon in PvE. There are (believe or not) actually players who dont actually care about halls, despite the whining that goes on around here sometimes.

PvP is actually pretty important to this discussion. Our PvE Paragons aren't getting nerfed because we own Rampaging Ntouka's and Corsair Lookouts too easy.

That said, I still enjoy the Paragon in PvE, but to get back to the original post- I doubt the enjoyment will last with much more nerfing.

reetkever

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/E

12 Feb 2007 at 09:11 - 61
Unless you wanna farm with your Paragon, I'd just delete it.

Other classes can do what Paragons do, but then way better. Paragon's are like Elementalists specializing in all 4 elements: They can do alot, but nothing good.

Don't know about PvP, though.

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

12 Feb 2007 at 10:09 - 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Incoming IS just rediculous. I fail to see the justification for nerfing it AGAIN. Let's look at the Monk line, in particular, Protection Prayers. The skill Life Barrier...with enough in Protection it also reduces damage by half and that skill has not been touched and you can keep it on for as long as you want. So...what's with the "Incoming!" hate? Personally, instead of just having it as this joke they really might as well remove it from the game completely because, like Spiritual Pain, there's just no point having it on your skillbar now. My Paragon will have to find another elite to Play with....I'd best not say anything about that though because any ANet staff reading this might decide to nerf that one too...
PvP .... one can remove life barrier quite easily (you dont even need echantement removal - just whack bonder till het gets to 1/2 health.)

incoming had ~6 seconds of half damage no matter what you do, unremovable only preventable. (it seems like PvPers were too l33t to wait for recharge window to spike by then, diversion it or blackout it.)

---

Anyway, PvP person will tell you that paragons are overpowered because they have insane intra class synergy - full team of paragons works well, 12 man paragon team in urgoz would propably teart that place apart.

nerfs that were needed to ballance it ironically killed usage of single paragon in parties.

comming from person who enjoyed paragon buffing role (if i want to whack stuff while mildy supporting party i would play my favourite succor-wys-adrenal warrior ...)

ekamdu

ekamdu

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Holland

Legion of Sacred Light

Mo/

12 Feb 2007 at 10:14 - 63
the only good thing about the paragon is the fact that its buffs can not be removed... the buffs themselves arent that good, but still.. enchantments nd stuff can be removed in a split second

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

12 Feb 2007 at 11:59 - 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei2stein
PvP .... one can remove life barrier quite easily (you dont even need echantement removal - just whack bonder till het gets to 1/2 health.)

incoming had ~6 seconds of half damage no matter what you do, unremovable only preventable. (it seems like PvPers were too l33t to wait for recharge window to spike by then, diversion it or blackout it.)
The OP specified PvE.

But anyhoo...if Incoming reduces damage by half surely that gives wammos a reason to use Frenzy which makes them attack faster..and so the balance is restored.

Kakumei

Kakumei

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Grind is subjective

learn this please

12 Feb 2007 at 12:27 - 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
No need to resort to name calling - I find this a lot on gwguru, especially with those saying Paragons are somehow still useful despite 3 repeated nerfs.
Has it occurred to you that Paragons might simply have been that powerful at release that now, after the third nerf, they're approaching actually being balanced.

Quote:
As for the various other builds posted, I dont think choosing GFTE/ToF and then bulk-filling the remaining 6 slots is convincing at all.
Why not? It works very well.

Quote:
Spear still has lower DPS than axe or sword.
...

Are you kidding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign, on the last goddamn page
Sword: 25.59
Axe: 26.66
Hammer: 29.35
Dagger: 25.83
Spear: 26.15
Scythe: 29.81
Are we reading the same numbers? What the christ?

keli

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Budapest

E/

12 Feb 2007 at 14:30 - 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Andicus
Lets see.

A paragon can provide party wide attack buffs, party wide armour buffs, party wide heals, party wide energy gain, has individual player buffs and impressive DPS.

Yep, totally useless....

For those bitching about how useless paragons are, consider what it is possible for a paragon to achieve with 1 skillbar and then think how many other characters you would need to produce the same effect. You cant simply say "i'd rather take another nuker" as yes, it may do more damage, but can it buff your whole party's armour, buff your melee chars and do that dps at the same time? No, but a paragon can. Likewise, you can't say "i'd rather take a healer hench", when did healer hench start doing heavy damage and restoring energy whilst healing?

I'd say people need to stop playing paragons as healer types and start playing them in the agressive buffbot style that it was designed for. For all those that are in doubt about what a paragon can do, go watch obs mode for a few hours. They can annihilate full teams of human opposition in short order whilst hardly getting scratched themselves. If they can do it to humans, they can do it to dumb AI as well.
Yes its right but do you need party wide heal and energy and wohooh skills if you can simply take an ele what kill everything in 30secs?

keli

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Budapest

E/

12 Feb 2007 at 14:40 - 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Andicus
That, is quite possibly the most stupid thing posted on Guru this month, and having read some of the other threads, you have achieved something remarkable. Lets take a look at some fairly common place paragon skills and see how useful(or not, they are)

We'll start with an easy one:

Cruel Spear - its had a small nerf, but essentially, its still eviscerate on steroids. Incase you didn't notice, eviscerate has been the most commonly used axe skill for the last 12-18 months.

And another spear one:

Barbed Spear - just like sever artery(favoured by wammos around the world) except it costs less adren, and can be used from range.

How about a shout now:

"Stand Your Ground" - Well, we all know that most pve players don't kite, i'd have thought getting your tanking eles turned into the equivelent of real tanks was really quite useful.

Or another one:

"Go For the Eyes" - Depends on your party formation, but given 2 warriors and a paragon, that is at least 3 players it is giving a good buff to. And how hard or conditional is it to use? Oh, its not, when it lights up, you press it, it buffs damage and feeds you energy.

Then you can look at making skills interact ***Shocked Gasp***

Use GFTE and vicious spear, and you suddenly get a good damage spear throw that is almost guaranteed to deep wound.

Then, should you wish, you can include skills from other classes that work well with a paragon too.

"Watch yourself"
"Shields Up"

Sure your "tank" might have watch yourself, but how often does this cover your entire party? Not that often. Used on a paragon, it does. So now we found 3 good armour buff shouts for use on a paragon. So lets see what the results are.

Monk = 60AL
Monk with "Watch Yourself" = ~80AL
Monk with "Watch Yourself" and "Stand your Ground" = ~104AL
And then lets say we meet a few ranger or paragon monsters(not exactly uncommon in NF) and we can add "Shields up". We now have a backline with 154AL, and a frontline with ~190AL. Not such a shabby result, a prot monk would be pleased to cut down damage to the whole party by that much. BUT, we missed one thing.

The paragon still has been throwing spears and doing decent damage the whole time!
The problem is that the paragons cant get as many adrenaline as the warriors can..

And yes you listed the skills wich are still usable, oh but wait they will nerf it...

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

12 Feb 2007 at 14:43 - 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
No need to resort to name calling - I find this a lot on gwguru, especially with those saying Paragons are somehow still useful despite 3 repeated nerfs.
^_^ that made me ROFL here at the office. You thought i was directing that at you.

I use my paragon in PvE. I dont pvp with her cause i dont have proper equipment (i have so few spear mods unlocked!)

I set her up (basically Zinger's You're On Fire! build) with Jin as Ritualist Barrage, Koss as AOE Axe W/P (Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe + another copy of watch yourself and go for the eyes), and Olias as my orders/MM (since im using shamblings with death nova, i dont care if they die quickly) and quite frankly its boring how easy PvE gets with amazing skill synergy.

dreamhunk

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

:P

E/Me

12 Feb 2007 at 14:44 - 69
ol two *NEW* proffessions............just remeber anet will nerf it for PVP in a rpg game!

Really whats the point of having new proffessions Izzy will just nerf it until it is useless...lol


tell my why I should get next chapter? New Proffessions are out because we now know they will be useless and be nerfed.

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

12 Feb 2007 at 14:51 - 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamhunk
tell my why I should get next chapter? New Proffessions are out because we now know they will be useless and be nerfed.
This is the only reason I wouldn't want to see new professions come out in Chapter 4...the danger that you'd get into playing them, then after a week PvP wammos will realise that "ZOMG Mending will not outheal the damage", or some such trash, and so the nerfbat will be taken out of it's leather case and polished ready to crush all the skills PvPers find "hard to counter" and so everyone who started new professions will all go '/ragedelete'. Personally I don't have the heart to delete my Paragon...I've put too much effort into her...and who, quite by accident, has managed to get Protector of Cantha.

glountz

glountz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/Mo

12 Feb 2007 at 15:01 - 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Anyway, PvP person will tell you that paragons are overpowered because they have insane intra class synergy - full team of paragons works well, 12 man paragon team in urgoz would propably teart that place apart.

nerfs that were needed to ballance it ironically killed usage of single paragon in parties.
Quoted For Truth.

The single paragon will add close to nothing to a PVE party, unless he's a full spear para (sort of a bad ranger without Barrage). So it's pretty dead.
However, you can still group with other paras evicted from PuGs to rebuild this feared synergy in PVE. I tried it, with 1 tactics/triple chop warrior and 2 barrage rangers + an order necro and that's pretty effective.

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

12 Feb 2007 at 15:15 - 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
This is the only reason I wouldn't want to see new professions come out in Chapter 4...the danger that you'd get into playing them, then after a week PvP wammos will realise that "ZOMG Mending will not outheal the damage", or some such trash, and so the nerfbat will be taken out of it's leather case and polished ready to crush all the skills PvPers find "hard to counter" and so everyone who started new professions will all go '/ragedelete'. Personally I don't have the heart to delete my Paragon...I've put too much effort into her...and who, quite by accident, has managed to get Protector of Cantha.
How do you get a protector title by accident?! ^^ Gee id love that.

Heh heh...to address your concerns, i guess my best advice is to "roll with the punches".

The cycle of skill buffs/nerfs in Guild Wars is quite unnerving since people get very attached to specific builds.

But really, you have to expect this stuff coming.

Look at the ritualist. Look at the assassin. Now look at the paragon, look at the dervish.

It's a cycle. It's inevitable. It's gonna happen. Expect it, prepare for it, and don't believe anything will remain the same.

You can't adopt a "ooh my build is awesome and perfect forever!" attitude.

Ritualist can no longer spirit spam their turtle-ing spirits, but they will rape you with Spirit Burn/Gaze From Beyond spike.

It's the circle of life...er...nerf. *giggles and hums Lion King theme*

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

12 Feb 2007 at 15:23 - 73
there ok in pve or where...
i found it much easier and more fun with my para than monk.

a good para will be able to drop the damage delt to the party by upto 50% fairly consistantly, boost the phyisicals DPS (including minions) with gfte and anthem of flame, AND be able to do resonable dps themselves.

Mister Muhkuh

Mister Muhkuh

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Germany

Ugly Ducklings [ugly]

P/

12 Feb 2007 at 15:25 - 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum
they can't heal, spike , pressure , and they have really low al, go ahead and delete your paragon, useless class.

L O L

I have played succesful spikes, pressure and the paragons also healed themself, imagine that

and paragon armor is 80 (+10), quite low, eh??

when adjusting the party setup, paragons are EXTREMELY useful.
if you didn't find out about that you either just don't care, or you really are...
whatever

when I first saw the update I thought paragons were nerfed, too.

but still, 35% dmg reduction is still quite useful, and paragons combinated with other classes really rock
you should just take a closer look at all the skills then you find a lot of useful stuff.

(In my current (PvE)build which I made up shortly after the update, I use 2 Paragons+1Warrior/Paragon+Rit hint: try offensive chants/anthems/shouts with spirits...)

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

12 Feb 2007 at 15:33 - 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
How do you get a protector title by accident?! ^^ Gee id love that.
I took my Paragon through Cantha...went off to do the Shing Jea missions straight away because I like them ^^. Finished the Imperial Sanctum and went to map travel then thought "Hang on, I've got Masters on all so far!" So I checked further and it turned out I only had Eternal Grove to do...that was my only motivation for doing Defender's of the Forest!! I really hate that quest. The only one I actively tried for Masters on was Eternal Grove...but because I've done Cantha SO many times all the missions just seem 'routine'...that's my guess as to how I managed it.

Theus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

W/Mo

12 Feb 2007 at 15:38 - 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakumei
Why did you start the thread if you already had your answer, and had no intentions of actually listening to anything said?

As Ensign detailed above, spears are certainly not to be ignored--especially not while Aggressive Refrain is as ridiculous as it is.
Why wouldn't I be surprised if skills like that of Aggressive Refrain and "Go for the Eyes!" were nerfed.

That would truly be hilarious.

lyra_song

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

12 Feb 2007 at 15:49 - 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theus
Why wouldn't I be surprised if skills like that of Aggressive Refrain and "Go for the Eyes!" were nerfed.

That would truly be hilarious.
I'm surprised it HASNT been nerfed yet. Ive been waiting...and waiting...

Bryant Again

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

12 Feb 2007 at 16:17 - 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Muhkuh
L O L

I have played succesful spikes, pressure and the paragons also healed themself, imagine that

and paragon armor is 80 (+10), quite low, eh??

when adjusting the party setup, paragons are EXTREMELY useful.
if you didn't find out about that you either just don't care, or you really are...
whatever

when I first saw the update I thought paragons were nerfed, too.

but still, 35% dmg reduction is still quite useful, and paragons combinated with other classes really rock
you should just take a closer look at all the skills then you find a lot of useful stuff.

(In my current (PvE)build which I made up shortly after the update, I use 2 Paragons+1Warrior/Paragon+Rit hint: try offensive chants/anthems/shouts with spirits...)
'Twas sarcasm, sir.

On Topic...

They're still useful, and it all depends on what you wanna run, be it support or DPS.

Shadowfox1125

Shadowfox1125

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

PST

W/

12 Feb 2007 at 16:34 - 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunk
Paragons are only good for secondary proffessions. I rest my case. No rebutles please.
Too bad they're excellent in PvP. Run 3 Paragons in a GvG and you'll see.

Patrick Smit

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

NiTe

12 Feb 2007 at 17:14 - 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagg
.....Why would you use a Paragon anyway? Rangers are better ranged attackers, Monks (and Earth Eles with Wards) are better buffers, Warriors (and Eles) have more AL.
.....
The attack rate of paragons is superior 1.5 secs per attack compared to at least 2 for rangers. Range is worse, aggro range compared to further range possibilities of the ranger, tho often at at cost, worse refire rate, or arc problems. Bow base damage is just one more to both minimum and maximum. Monk enchants can be removed, wards offer not real mobility, warriors have not more AL, it depends on the armor they choose. Eles for sure have not more AL, unless they use skills for it. The argumentation was a bit leaky, don't you think so?