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Originally Posted by CDittric77
Can we PLEASE close this thread? There's a dead horse being mutilated over in the corner!
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people have to say on the subject.
Any point in Paragons anymore?
Hephaestus Ram
people have to say on the subject.
Rakeman
Paragons need a nerf in PvP and a buff in PvE. Of course, there are many ways to easily accomplish this, such as limiting Leadership to yourself and NON-Paragon allies.
Paragons are FAR from useless though. I think one problem is that people expect Paragons to REPLACE a monk... a Paragon simply COMPLIMENTS the monk... Imagine a group with 3 healing/prot monks in PvE... you probably wont do enough damage to effectively dispatch the enemy mobs. But then think of 2 monks and a Paragon. The Paragon brings both damage AND healing/prot/energy to the table. That is why the Paragon shines, not because he can replace a monk or ranger or etc., but because he can compliment them.
Paragons are FAR from useless though. I think one problem is that people expect Paragons to REPLACE a monk... a Paragon simply COMPLIMENTS the monk... Imagine a group with 3 healing/prot monks in PvE... you probably wont do enough damage to effectively dispatch the enemy mobs. But then think of 2 monks and a Paragon. The Paragon brings both damage AND healing/prot/energy to the table. That is why the Paragon shines, not because he can replace a monk or ranger or etc., but because he can compliment them.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by glountz
Now they are okay in paraway team, but I challenge you to incorporate a single support paragon (paramedic; paraprot; parabattery) effectively in a team.
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But...they dont.
I dont think the challenge is finding a build or making it work.
Its finding people who are open minded and can look outside the box.
The paragon's cookie cutter broke, so apparently the whole class is broken.
glountz
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
That would be easy, providing the team actually has some sort of sense as to what to expect out of the paragon.
But...they dont. I dont think the challenge is finding a build or making it work. Its finding people who are open minded and can look outside the box. The paragon's cookie cutter broke, so apparently the whole class is broken. |
I fail to see how to incorporate one in a balanced group. What I mean is the paragon can't anymore say "how can I be useful to you" and adapt his build to the team needs but "Hey team, how can you tweak your builds so I can be of any use?"
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by glountz
Paragons are now only useful in "niche" team, IMO. A lot like Trapper team, Full ele team, Full monk team, Full necro soul reaping abuse team..
I fail to see how to incorporate one in a balanced group. What I mean is the paragon can't anymore say "how can I be useful to you" and adapt his build to the team needs but "Hey team, how can you tweak your builds so I can be of any use?" |
Rakeman
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Originally Posted by glountz
Paragons are now only useful in "niche" team, IMO. A lot like Trapper team, Full ele team, Full monk team, Full necro soul reaping abuse team..
I fail to see how to incorporate one in a balanced group. What I mean is the paragon can't anymore say "how can I be useful to you" and adapt his build to the team needs but "Hey team, how can you tweak your builds so I can be of any use?" |
erfweiss
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
Thanks for the life lesson Oprah.
If you can't do math, there are more support then main characters at the moment. Not only that but I think you have the "wrong" definition of a support role. CDittric77 is right, close this thread or more people like this are going to post. |
3 Shove Warriors
4 Heavy Nukers
4 Monks
1 Battery / SS
That's it. Do you see a support role in there other than monk? No. Because you all haven't figured out that anything else works, so you keep a cookie cutter attitude on how things are.
A healer is a support role. They support your ability to stay alive.
glountz
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
What would you consider a balanced group?
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Spura
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Shouts are not removable.
They are not interruptable. |
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Theres no real viable paragon shout counter (hexes are removable, well of silence requires a corpse)
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In PvE areas with vocal minority it is practically impossible to use any shouts(pve groups being notoriously bad at hex removal and also prioritizing tanks and nukers over paragons regardless of the fact that faintheartedness and vocal minority don't affect those 2 builds).
As mentioned many times, I would vastly prefer Vocal minority as a spamable hex(say 5 recharge) that hindered shouts by making them recharge longer. (adding a flat 5 sec recharge to adren shout hurts as hell).
Guildmaster Cain
Hmm I am happy with my paragon, though it was slightly nerfed is last update.
I use it mainly in PvE, and basically flew through prophesies in recordspeed.
My 2 cents on paragons: DONT use the spear, it sucks, ask yourself: why would you have 80 (plus 16 shield) armor and stay in the backline? Make a P/W keep tactics low, but spam Watch Yourself for UNLIMITED free energy. Give him/her a good sword and let it slash away. Use the sword to build up adrenaline that give free energy when you use chants/shouts. The acquired energy could be used for defense (healing/energy/conditionremover/hexremover) or offense (more dmg/critical hits etc). Personally I prefer going in with all the ... of Restoration skills and Mending Refrain (which should be called Echo Mending :P). Keep spamming shouts and chants to keep Echo Mending up all times on other players.
There u have a Paragon with: 96 armor level, good aggro-target (keep them away from casters), excellent group healing, unlimited energy.
I used my Paragon in FoW in a guild team, where I was the only tank. I can say it worked out pretty well.
Final Note: I also took Song of Power, a skill that should have been an elite ;P. Basically it gives the whole group a +4 energy regen. Very nice to keep going quickly through battles
I use it mainly in PvE, and basically flew through prophesies in recordspeed.
My 2 cents on paragons: DONT use the spear, it sucks, ask yourself: why would you have 80 (plus 16 shield) armor and stay in the backline? Make a P/W keep tactics low, but spam Watch Yourself for UNLIMITED free energy. Give him/her a good sword and let it slash away. Use the sword to build up adrenaline that give free energy when you use chants/shouts. The acquired energy could be used for defense (healing/energy/conditionremover/hexremover) or offense (more dmg/critical hits etc). Personally I prefer going in with all the ... of Restoration skills and Mending Refrain (which should be called Echo Mending :P). Keep spamming shouts and chants to keep Echo Mending up all times on other players.
There u have a Paragon with: 96 armor level, good aggro-target (keep them away from casters), excellent group healing, unlimited energy.
I used my Paragon in FoW in a guild team, where I was the only tank. I can say it worked out pretty well.
Final Note: I also took Song of Power, a skill that should have been an elite ;P. Basically it gives the whole group a +4 energy regen. Very nice to keep going quickly through battles
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by glountz
To me it is a group where a single profession does not represent more than 25% of the said group, and where the team strenght comes from the specialized but complementary role of each of this members. I.E the contrary of Searing Flames groups, Paraway groups, Zergway, Ranger spike etc...
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Command Paragon
Barrage Ranger with weapon spells
Minion Master
Prot Monk
Heal Monk
D/E Scythe Warden
W/P (second copy of go for the eyes) Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe
E/Me Searing Flames
to be a balanced PvE team?
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| People didn't even try hard. All the usual warrior counters applied are hexes and conditions as well and as such counterable in the same way and you don't say that warrior counters are useless do you? |
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| at least 70% of the time I was unable to use shouts or chants. |
glountz
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
would you consider:
Command Paragon Barrage Ranger with weapon spells Minion Master Prot Monk Heal Monk D/E Scythe Warden W/P (second copy of go for the eyes) Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe E/Me Searing Flames to be a balanced PvE team? |
But your team would be more efective if there was multiple copies of Searing Flames, or multiple copies of barragers for a B/P team, or multiple paragons boosting eachother by taking e-management such as Energising chorus.
The build of your "command paragon" interests me also. Now, if a paragon is not paired with a Energising chorus other one, most skills like Stand your Ground are unaffordable.
And I don't deny the effectiveness of spear/damage boosting paragons.
The only two good party boosting skills left to paragons are GotY and Aggressive refrain. Until the next nerf.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by glountz
The only two good party boosting skills left to paragons are GotY and Aggressive refrain. Until the next nerf.
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The point really is to use Ward Against Foes/Melee, the Para/War/Derv/Ranger/MM to do damage, set enemy on fire via Anthem of FLame and the SF ele and the use You're on Fire! and alternating Watch Yourself! to buff the team's defense (Basically took Zinger's paragon tank and spread the skills across multiple characters) and the monks dont really have to do much work tanks to this very front heavy build.
The problem is, i can only make such a team if im team leader. A lot of PUGS want the holy triad of War/Monk/Nuker...meh.
Spura
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Warrior hate is about stopping damage, not buffs. Its irrelevant to compare it. Just using a movement hex or cripple is enough to stop a warrior.
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
How many paragons were in your groups?
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Btw another hex worth using against paragon is Spirit Shackles. That one is a killer for builds trying to use GtfE to power SYG.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Spura
No it is not. Movement hex or cripple is removed in the same way that Vocal Minority is removed. It is a very good comparison. If your argument is that Vocal minority isn't a counter because it is a hex and it can be removed, then movement reducing hex or condition is no warrior counter for the same reason, that is it can be removed.
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Vocal minority isnt a real viable counter, because it is 1 skill, the sole skill that can shut a paragon down at the source of its true power, shouts/chants/echos. It is removable, even with cover hexes. Well of Silence requires a corpse and can be kited out of. These skills belong only Necromancers.
Spirit Shackles (how i LOVE Shack/Wrack) is a great skill, but still also just a hex. You've got Roaring Winds but its a spirit and it only stops energy based shouts, adrenal shouts are unaffected.
You can dump more hexes to stop a Paragon like Soothing Images, or E-Deny him, but at the end of the day, those counters have counters too and its still not strong enough to stop a multiple paragon team.
Warriors function of pressure and damage can be stopped by: other warriors, rangers, ganksassins, blindbots, elementalist wards, kiting, KD, body blocking, etc etc.
FoxBat
Freezing gust spams. You can waste your 12s recharge holy veil on removing one, and it will be re-applied 5s later.
Y.T.
well my para is a mule now, i'm not going to delete her tho - mb anet'll unnerf paragons alittle bit in the future, but atm para's just another support char, and its nearly impossible to get into pug with para... it's alittle bit sad that anet mersilessly killed such a nice profession 
Domino
Paragon is the only GW class I couldn't stand. None of the shouts are particularly wow-ing.
The entire class seems very half-baked and unfocused imho.
The entire class seems very half-baked and unfocused imho.
cthulhu reborn
This whole discussion goes back to a fundamental problem with players...They don't want what they don't understand.
The whole idea that an entire profession is shot down because one skill got nerfed is ridiculous.
People have started playing with certain combo's to cover up for general lack of tactics. Are you an SF nuker? If not, we dont want you...
Even protection monks are often misunderstood in PvE...can you also take some heal?, they ask...
Ritu, can you go restoration? If you answer no, you are likely to get kicked.
People fail at missions many times because they don't know how to do it, they don't learn from their failure. And guess what? They blame the skills...or specific classes.
Even for normal missions, people have ideas of what they want and don't want in a team. Ane ele has to be a nuker, a warrior has to be a tank, a necro is MM or SS...heaven forbid he uses blood magic (except BiP in elite missions and DoA of course). Why all of this? Because there is a very limited supply of builds that are so powerful at a specific thing that even the biggest idiot can finish a mission with a group like that. Skills over skill, if you get my drift...
I have a paragon and it does just fine even now. It doesn't die so quickly actually and in normal PvE staying on your feet is a good thing...don't bash it cause you don't get it...
The whole idea that an entire profession is shot down because one skill got nerfed is ridiculous.
People have started playing with certain combo's to cover up for general lack of tactics. Are you an SF nuker? If not, we dont want you...
Even protection monks are often misunderstood in PvE...can you also take some heal?, they ask...
Ritu, can you go restoration? If you answer no, you are likely to get kicked.
People fail at missions many times because they don't know how to do it, they don't learn from their failure. And guess what? They blame the skills...or specific classes.
Even for normal missions, people have ideas of what they want and don't want in a team. Ane ele has to be a nuker, a warrior has to be a tank, a necro is MM or SS...heaven forbid he uses blood magic (except BiP in elite missions and DoA of course). Why all of this? Because there is a very limited supply of builds that are so powerful at a specific thing that even the biggest idiot can finish a mission with a group like that. Skills over skill, if you get my drift...
I have a paragon and it does just fine even now. It doesn't die so quickly actually and in normal PvE staying on your feet is a good thing...don't bash it cause you don't get it...
CDittric77
I completely agree. People have contrived notions of what 'works' what 'doesn't' and what is 'most efficient'. I applaud ANet for making alterations and changes to the game that require us to think around situations, work creatively to use skills in concert accross a party or professions, and find the viewpoint of a certain way to do things foolish.
Does that mean that some things are NOT better than others in a certain situation? NO! But it does mean that you shouldn't turn down an entire profession because it either doesn't work the way you want, or it forces you to be creative with other characters (heaven forbid!).
Does that mean that some things are NOT better than others in a certain situation? NO! But it does mean that you shouldn't turn down an entire profession because it either doesn't work the way you want, or it forces you to be creative with other characters (heaven forbid!).
CagedinSanity
Even if they kick me in the balls, I'm one of those who actually support nerfs (except the occasional one or two...) because it forces people to think on how they're going to use said skill(s), As CDittric77 mentioned.
Mesmer in Need
Ive never played a paragon, never had one on my team. but i know the skills and... 3 sec incoming? god give ur whammo watch yourself. wy> paragon right now imo.
Hephaestus Ram
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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
This whole discussion goes back to a fundamental problem with players...They don't want what they don't understand.
The whole idea that an entire profession is shot down because one skill got nerfed is ridiculous. People have started playing with certain combo's to cover up for general lack of tactics. Are you an SF nuker? If not, we dont want you... Even protection monks are often misunderstood in PvE...can you also take some heal?, they ask... Ritu, can you go restoration? If you answer no, you are likely to get kicked. People fail at missions many times because they don't know how to do it, they don't learn from their failure. And guess what? They blame the skills...or specific classes. Even for normal missions, people have ideas of what they want and don't want in a team. Ane ele has to be a nuker, a warrior has to be a tank, a necro is MM or SS...heaven forbid he uses blood magic (except BiP in elite missions and DoA of course). Why all of this? Because there is a very limited supply of builds that are so powerful at a specific thing that even the biggest idiot can finish a mission with a group like that. Skills over skill, if you get my drift... I have a paragon and it does just fine even now. It doesn't die so quickly actually and in normal PvE staying on your feet is a good thing...don't bash it cause you don't get it... |
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's the issue here.
The fact is that the paragon only has a handful of decent skills, and most
of them have been "tweaked" to the point of barely useful.
I have a paragon too, and I can get through any of the three campaigns
with him ok. But if I had to select one character from my eight to take
into a tough mission or quest, because of his hobbled skills, he'd be
the last I'd select. I just don't think that he's able to carry his weight the
way things are right now. I think even the assassin who I've never even
gotten into a PUG with is more effective than the paragon is right now.
Not that there's anything wrong with the assassin. It's one of my favorite
classes, but I had to do the entire chapter with henches.
Deleet
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Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need
Ive never played a paragon, never had one on my team. but i know the skills and... 3 sec incoming? god give ur whammo watch yourself. wy> paragon right now imo.
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wetsparks
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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
This whole discussion goes back to a fundamental problem with players...They don't want what they don't understand.
The whole idea that an entire profession is shot down because one skill got nerfed is ridiculous. People have started playing with certain combo's to cover up for general lack of tactics. Are you an SF nuker? If not, we dont want you... Even protection monks are often misunderstood in PvE...can you also take some heal?, they ask... Ritu, can you go restoration? If you answer no, you are likely to get kicked. People fail at missions many times because they don't know how to do it, they don't learn from their failure. And guess what? They blame the skills...or specific classes. Even for normal missions, people have ideas of what they want and don't want in a team. Ane ele has to be a nuker, a warrior has to be a tank, a necro is MM or SS...heaven forbid he uses blood magic (except BiP in elite missions and DoA of course). Why all of this? Because there is a very limited supply of builds that are so powerful at a specific thing that even the biggest idiot can finish a mission with a group like that. Skills over skill, if you get my drift... I have a paragon and it does just fine even now. It doesn't die so quickly actually and in normal PvE staying on your feet is a good thing...don't bash it cause you don't get it... |
Ensign earlier posted average damage output of all classes, but Paragon can also use Mighty Throw every other attack because it has a two adrenaline recharge which gives +34 damage at 12 spear. I use it at 15 spear, without a max damage spear, and regularly do over 50 damage and sometimes into the 70s.
Combine that with Song of Restoration that gives 78 health to an ally at 12 motivation every 15 seconds just for using a skill, and that is a powerful boost to the monks in the group.
Compare that to an ele that uses Heal Party to help monks, Heal Party gives out 67 life at 12 healing for three times the energy.
So to recap, high damage output, good heal buff, hard rez and Paragons are definitely still useful.
Polarhound
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Originally Posted by Spura
Problem is that those 2 skills are quickly becoming the only skills worth anything in the whole profession. Any nerfs to these 2 and it's all over. Usual bar has those 2, anthem of flame(to keep up aggressive) and bunch of spear attacks(not that they are good, but you are specced in this thing anyway, might as well use them).
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My skill bar:
For Great Justice!
Stand Your Ground!
Anthem of Flame
Go For The Eyes!
Aggressive Refrain
Never Surrender!
Cautery Signet
Signet of Return
Once engaged in a fight, I end up hitting GFTE around once per second with FGJ and Aggressive Refrain running. I don't even have to use Make Your Time to get enough adren going. Hell.. I don't have a single point in Spear Mastery! My spears do little to no damage, but I don't need them to... My goal is to do my damage through my 7+ allies and pull all conditions off them in tough fights.
Katari
Generic Spear/Leadership/Command para
12+1+2 Spear
10+2 Leadership
8+1 Command
Spear of Lighting
Cruel Spear
*Spear Attack
*Support Skill
Agressive Refrain
Resurect
Anthem of Flame
"GFtE!"
DPS on par with a warrior, some support/utility potential. Works great for PvE.
I don't really see a good reason to neglect spear mastery at all. Sure, "GFTE!" is a nice damage buff, but it gets nicer the more people you have that can take advantage of it.
12+1+2 Spear
10+2 Leadership
8+1 Command
Spear of Lighting
Cruel Spear
*Spear Attack
*Support Skill
Agressive Refrain
Resurect
Anthem of Flame
"GFtE!"
DPS on par with a warrior, some support/utility potential. Works great for PvE.
I don't really see a good reason to neglect spear mastery at all. Sure, "GFTE!" is a nice damage buff, but it gets nicer the more people you have that can take advantage of it.
Darksun
Wasn't the reason they nerfed the para because an All-Paragon group was too powerful in PvP?
It seemes like the Nerf was done in the wrong way. Shouldn't they have limited the effectiveness of the skills in a group with too many paragons? I mean, it seems like they should have fixed it at the problem instead of just blowing out it's kneecaps..
It seemes like the Nerf was done in the wrong way. Shouldn't they have limited the effectiveness of the skills in a group with too many paragons? I mean, it seems like they should have fixed it at the problem instead of just blowing out it's kneecaps..