Anet HAS to stop making support classes. Noone wants them, because noone knows what they are capable of. Someone think that all classes except monk are made for only damage dealing (stupid 12 years old wammos). I have a rit, and I have a hard time finding a group, because noone understant a rit, or the group already has a rit, and it's not wort bringing two.
Every group want one or more monks, warriors or eles.. But support classes.. Nah. There is no use for two in a group.
Any point in Paragons anymore?
Zedd Kun
Hephaestus Ram
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mister Muhkuh
when adjusting the party setup, paragons are EXTREMELY useful.
stuff. |
when adjusting the party setup, paragons are EXTREMELY useful.
^^
Maybe this is what the problem is. I just finished nightfall with my
paragon, was really happy with him but I had to customize my entire
group to make use of the skills he had available. I didn't have to do
that with any of the five other characters I've gotten through that
chapter, I could just use the same general set up for all of them.
It's bad enough to have to spend an hour trying to get a full group
together, but then to have to convince them all to customize their
set up to accomodate one character, when you can just pass on him
for someone that will work in the group "as is" might be too much to
ask.
I had to do most of the chapter with heroes and henches because I
either couldn't get in a group, or when forming the group, I couldn't
get people to adjust their set up. They want to use the skill set that
they're used to, and if you insist that the change something, they
just leave. It's just the nature of PUGs.
ikpt
Paragons useless? No way...
wynoski
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
I always take Morghan with me to any remotely challenging area, along with olias MM and zhed searing flames. GftE affects all the minions giving them a ton of damage, Zhed sets everything on fire and ToF protects the entire party plus makes sturdier minions. Seeing how well paragons synergize with two very popular PvE builds, it's really silly that they aren't finding their way into more PuGs.
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I agree that morghan is very effective along with other heros..that's why I love ther heros...I now have controll over 32 skills with a ton of profession combos...live a littel...grow a little..think our side the core professions
Spura
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Rough DPS of a Paragon with *only* Aggressive Refrain and Go For the Eyes on hit bar: 52 |
Problem with class is that is has weapon attribute and also ways of buffing that.
It was pure design flaw on anet's part.
So if profession with sword DPS is given GtfE, which on average adds +15 damage per hit affected, guess what's the best scenario. 6 such attackers and each has Gtfe of his own. 6 * 15 extra damage each time all of them throw the spears. The fact that they also have ways of healing whole party and high AL just makes it worse. Then everything is nerfed and now the same mass paragon builds persist but it is much harder for single paragon, especially in pugs.
Aggressive refrain and Gtfe are everything that keeps the profession afloat, most other things are crap. Especially problematic are single target shouts like "Find Their Weakness", "Can't Touch This"(wish this was targeted at least), "Lead the way", "Make Your Time", which already aren't that potent but are further weakened by huge energy requirements. Unless you do Gtfe spam at the time, it is very hard to use these 10 energy single target shouts. And with cost raises, GtfE spam is absolutely vital to use most of paragon's stuff.
Hell lots of skills are so borked that even adjusting the numbers won't help, they need functionality redesign. Especially elites. The best elite you can run now on paragon is Expel Hexes or Healer's Covenant(to be stolen off you by monk with Arcane Mimicry and Channeling for free heals).
Acidic Won
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Spura
The best elite you can run now on paragon is Expel Hexes or Healer's Covenant(to be stolen off you by monk with Arcane Mimicry and Channeling for free heals).
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bryann380
When my paragon and dervish both lost their chance to become Legendary Survivor, I stopped adventuring as them. That was the main reason I made them in the first place. So now, my paragon's new permanent role is "Urgoz Warren ferry operator". Free for my guildmates/alliance, 100 gold each for everyone else (to cover the guest invitation cost, she leaves from our guild hall). My dervish is now "The Deep ferry operator".
-LiamB
I love my Paragon, and with my skill setup, and the 2 Monks, the team very rarely fall below 75% health =)
Shmanka
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bryann380
When my paragon and dervish both lost their chance to become Legendary Survivor, I stopped adventuring as them. That was the main reason I made them in the first place. So now, my paragon's new permanent role is "Urgoz Warren ferry operator". Free for my guildmates/alliance, 100 gold each for everyone else (to cover the guest invitation cost, she leaves from our guild hall). My dervish is now "The Deep ferry operator".
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At the moment I would say based on my experience in PvP based off HA and countless gvg I consider 25-30% of the elite skills all available in all 3 campaigns pvp worthy. What's more horrible is that all the non elite skills I would say is approximately 15-20% The OP didnt just post something about paragons, this is a problem for all classes, where do monk's and rits fit in? Where do warriors, assasins, and dervish's fit in? Trust me, at the moment we all don't know the only reason most of us play warrior is because it has been around longer. Since AoG got its legs cut off we switched back our gvg build to 2 basic pressure warriors again, assasins don't cut it, and now the dervish offers nothing even in all Avatar forms. They need to step up every skill in this game Elite and Non Elite to the "better then normal" level I want skills more like Gale and Diversion, Dash, Frenzy, Ether Prodigy, Blessed Light, Gift of Health etc etc.
Why even "over nerf" a skill? I still question half of the paragon skills to this day why it was "over nerfed". "Incomming!" had it... well comming, but other then that I truly had no problems with the Paragon in any pvp format.
The Ernada
Sure a lot of skills really could get a look at and could use a buff. But it seems a lot of people think a skill or a class is useless unless it can make a dozen enemies explode with a click of a button or give them invincible mode. If you're going to use such extreme terms such as "useless" then expect people to view you on the other extreme.
mqstout
I think the crux of this thread can be boiled down to this:
People don't have the paragon we have, the paragon that has solely two functions with only 5ish total useful skills to choose from:
*spear-chucking single-target damage
*armor boosts.
People were expecting and want the full-party, useful-buffs-for-everyone class that it started as.
People don't have the paragon we have, the paragon that has solely two functions with only 5ish total useful skills to choose from:
*spear-chucking single-target damage
*armor boosts.
People were expecting and want the full-party, useful-buffs-for-everyone class that it started as.
Zonzai
Paragons are not that great in PvP. But I love having one with me in PvE. *If* they knows what they are doing.
This is the way that it is for many classes. Paragon, Necromancer, Ritualist, Assassin and Elementalist are, at best, situationally useful in GvG. While other professions dominate PvE, HoH, TA or RA. That's just the way that it is. There are really only two professions that excell in all areas fo the game; Warrior and Monk.
So, unless you are playing one of those to professions, expect to not be usefull everywhere you go.
As far as nerfs go, I play an elementalist - when I can - and I feel your pain. It took ANet over a year from their first big nerf to elementalists to rebalance them to the point where they could efficiently do their job again.
I expect that the Paragon will be in the same boat, though hopefully Paragons won't have to wait a year to be made usefull again.
But I think Spura is right on the money with his analysis. The Paragon profession is fundamentally flawed in it's very design. It will take a lot of rebalancing to fix them.
-EDIT-
Also, if you ever get the chance try adding a paragon with some burning condition skills to your PvE group with SF nukers. It works out quite well. But that's a niche build.
This is the way that it is for many classes. Paragon, Necromancer, Ritualist, Assassin and Elementalist are, at best, situationally useful in GvG. While other professions dominate PvE, HoH, TA or RA. That's just the way that it is. There are really only two professions that excell in all areas fo the game; Warrior and Monk.
So, unless you are playing one of those to professions, expect to not be usefull everywhere you go.
As far as nerfs go, I play an elementalist - when I can - and I feel your pain. It took ANet over a year from their first big nerf to elementalists to rebalance them to the point where they could efficiently do their job again.
I expect that the Paragon will be in the same boat, though hopefully Paragons won't have to wait a year to be made usefull again.
But I think Spura is right on the money with his analysis. The Paragon profession is fundamentally flawed in it's very design. It will take a lot of rebalancing to fix them.
-EDIT-
Also, if you ever get the chance try adding a paragon with some burning condition skills to your PvE group with SF nukers. It works out quite well. But that's a niche build.
Ensign
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Spura
Problem is that those 2 skills are quickly becoming the only skills worth anything in the whole profession.
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But yeah, Paragons have always suffered from having lots and lots of completely useless chaff. It was kinda an afterthought when the profession has more overpowered skills to power out, but now that those are just playable (or worse) it's pretty obvious that those good skills were the only ones the profession ever had. There never was much choice in what to run, if you wanted to be successful at all.
Peace,
-CxE
CDittric77
The paragon is a challenge to play, much like a ritualist, or assassin, and frankly I think people WANT their paragon to be what it isn't designed to be: a frontline player.
The whole concept behind the paragon was back line leadership/buffs and mid ranged attack. It still does this well as that numbers previously posted show. If you don't like playing a character with those traits, play something else and enough with the whining! If you don't want to tank, you don't play a warrior, do you? Same concept applies.
The whole concept behind the paragon was back line leadership/buffs and mid ranged attack. It still does this well as that numbers previously posted show. If you don't like playing a character with those traits, play something else and enough with the whining! If you don't want to tank, you don't play a warrior, do you? Same concept applies.
Jeremy Untouchable
i just hate the armors of the new class's....man skirts for the loss...I stopped playing my Para when my wife said he looked like a boyband reject (tongue in cheek) the nerfs just ment i play a new mesmer now instead of para/derv
mqstout
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ikpt
Paragons useless? No way...
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Age
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CDittric77
The paragon is a challenge to play, much like a ritualist, or assassin, and frankly I think people WANT their paragon to be what it isn't designed to be: a frontline player.
The whole concept behind the paragon was back line leadership/buffs and mid ranged attack. It still does this well as that numbers previously posted show. If you don't like playing a character with those traits, play something else and enough with the whining! If you don't want to tank, you don't play a warrior, do you? Same concept applies. |
Sir Skullcrasher
For some reason when Nightfalls first released, I knew that one of the class would become the next Sin in the Guild Wars series. In fact, I talked to many friends and guildies online before the game is released and most of them agreed that Paragon would be nerf and become useless. Good think I made a Dervish.
HawkofStorms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mqstout
Read the OP: This is regarding PvE. PvP is of no concern.
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According to the other team in that screenshot (which I happen to be in the same alliance with), they are pretty sure they won that fight.
The Ernada
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Actually, his entire post is meaningless anyway since that all paragon team lost in HoH.
According to the other team in that screenshot (which I happen to be in the same alliance with), they are pretty sure they won that fight. |
Stealthc
Yet they're playing as blue so that would imply that they won the previous match.
jake jacobs
paragons are fun in HoH (para-spike ftw! zergway, meh) but i enjoy them in PvE as well. mind you tho, i have drifted away from PvE but paragons can run, they do a good bit of Buffage if u knoes wat to do. Still tho, i do enjoi me paragon less (in pve mind u). HA i just make a pve one, it takes too long to set up my stuffs, and also i can do w/e i want.
^
/ \
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y not?
^
/ \
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y not?
ikpt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Actually, his entire post is meaningless anyway since that all paragon team lost in HoH.
According to the other team in that screenshot (which I happen to be in the same alliance with), they are pretty sure they won that fight. |
CagedinSanity
Quote:
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Originally Posted by oinkers
Is there any point using Paragons anymore in PvE? It's been 3 back-to-back nerfs and no buffs of any significant whatsoever. Incoming is now 1...3 seconds, and flashes it's about to finish the moment it starts - it's not even funny anymore.
Edited by Dralspire: Please review our complaint procedure as specified in the forum rules. |
1) Are pathetic
2) Haven't played one
3) Just enjoy complaining about any nerfs they see EVER.
I have a spear paragon, and with like, 3 spear skills that add +40 damage (Which i think is very high for melee/ranged skills) so My paragon is far from useless.
VitisVinifera
It appears more nerfs are coming, according to gaile's post about upcoming changes.
this is just ridiculous
this is just ridiculous
Alfrond
I think all the anger over the Paragon nerfs comes from a misunderstanding between the players and A-net over what the Paragon is supposed to be. From what I've read, the Paragon was supposed to be a support class. Acting as a kind of battle leader, they would stay out of the front lines, use their shouts and chants to benefit the party and support the primary dmg. dealers with their spears. I think this is what A-net intended.
However, people began using Paragons in different ways, like those full Paragon teams. This lead people to develop an interpretation of the Pargon that was very different from A-net's. Therefore, A-net balanced (or nerfed) the class to make it more like what they had intended. People continued to use the Paragon the same way. So A-net had to nerf them again, and again. Now, its looking like the Paragon is no longer good at what they were being used for. For many players, this makes it look like the Paragon is now useless, but thats not true. They are now just less usefull when being used in the ways A-net did not intend.
It looks like people will just need to start looking at the Paragon as a support character as it seems that's what A-net wants it to be, and what it should have been.
However, people began using Paragons in different ways, like those full Paragon teams. This lead people to develop an interpretation of the Pargon that was very different from A-net's. Therefore, A-net balanced (or nerfed) the class to make it more like what they had intended. People continued to use the Paragon the same way. So A-net had to nerf them again, and again. Now, its looking like the Paragon is no longer good at what they were being used for. For many players, this makes it look like the Paragon is now useless, but thats not true. They are now just less usefull when being used in the ways A-net did not intend.
It looks like people will just need to start looking at the Paragon as a support character as it seems that's what A-net wants it to be, and what it should have been.
dargon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VitisVinifera
It appears more nerfs are coming, according to gaile's post about upcoming changes.
this is just ridiculous |
They could just as easily decide that some of the previous changes went a little too far and buff them and/or other skills.
The Ernada
I dont think Gaile meant that there are more Paragon nerfs coming, she was just giving an explaination for the last Paragon changes from the dev team. If you read her post again, she also mentioned why Grenth's Avatar was nerfed. I doubt that another nerf to either Grenth or Paragon is coming...those were just explainations in an attempt to cool the masses of whiners.
CDittric77
And given the state of this thread it's probably a good thing she did 
Lord Feathers
what I constantly see is skills being changed to reflect what happens on the P vs P side of the map. Honestly it seems like the nerfs there are to keep that lot happy. I can still play an effective paragon in P vs E and from the way changes abound I don't have the energy or even want to try any P vs P activities with having to constantly adjust this skill vs that skill. Something always goes to the top, a team build, new skill use, ect., and it will cause people to bitch and then they will nerf that as well, it's whats been done and continues to be done 
FoxBat
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VitisVinifera
It appears more nerfs are coming, according to gaile's post about upcoming changes.
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CDittric77
Can we PLEASE close this thread? There's a dead horse being mutilated over in the corner! 
erfweiss
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zedd Kun
Anet HAS to stop making support classes. Noone wants them, because noone knows what they are capable of. Someone think that all classes except monk are made for only damage dealing (stupid 12 years old wammos). I have a rit, and I have a hard time finding a group, because noone understant a rit, or the group already has a rit, and it's not wort bringing two.
Every group want one or more monks, warriors or eles.. But support classes.. Nah. There is no use for two in a group. |
It's very similar to GW in this aspect. The Paragon is a very viable support character. They are quite versatile (I have 9 different builds I rotate through). You can be a motivator, a command buffer, or even odd jobs like a Cautery signet / dazed removal at Abbadon (which no one ever seems to bring anything to remove that). In order for the team to survive, support roles need to fulfill their role. GFTE is a perfect example. With a minion master, the minions all get that benefit. That becomes lethal with 10 minions.
Personally, my paragon is one of my preferred characters to play (beat all three campaigns, capped all 15 paragon elites).
Shmanka
Quote:
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Originally Posted by erfweiss
Have you ever thought some of us actually LIKE playing the support role? It's not neccessary to be the "Star player" all the time. I'll use a football analogy for you: The quarterback doesn't win a game without an offensive line.
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If you can't do math, there are more support then main characters at the moment. Not only that but I think you have the "wrong" definition of a support role.
CDittric77 is right, close this thread or more people like this are going to post.
wynoski
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
Thanks for the life lesson Oprah.
If you can't do math, there are more support then main characters at the moment. Not only that but I think you have the "wrong" definition of a support role. CDittric77 is right, close this thread or more people like this are going to post. |
Is a monk a main character or a support character...what about an SS necros vs a BIP vs a MM? What about a fire ele, vs an earth ele with wards?
is an interupting ranger support or main? What about Mesmers?
In my short experience in this game, 1 or 2 tanks along with so 3-4 ranged attacks and 2 support people seem to get the job done...so the paragon staddles that role of a monk and a ranger...
I just wonder why everyone has to bash a certain class or create a bias..
my LEAST favorute class...warrior...just run in and hack away...little strategy for me, but I am sure I will get some comments about that...I would have said sin, but I could not get my sin off the noob island.
glountz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wynoski
my LEAST favorute class...warrior...just run in and hack away...little strategy for me, but I am sure I will get some comments about that...I would have said sin, but I could not get my sin off the noob island.
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Warriors are one of the most difficult class to play properly. Must not overextend, and deal with warrior hate, apply pressure, and spike with cleverness. That's not "Hack'n'slash", sorry.
Don't post if you know you're giving the stick to be bait.
Paragons are dead for PVE, unless you team them together to bring back the so powerful synergy they have when they are numerous. Maybe it will happen, like it happened when rangers were rejected like plague, so they finished to make full ranger teams like trapper teams or barrage team in PVE or ranger spike team/ViM team in PvP and had surprisingly a lot of success.
Paragons were powerful batteries (Energising finale, Aria of Zeal). This role was nerfed.
Paragons were powerful protectors (Stand your ground, Incoming). This role was nerfed.
Paragons were powerful medics (Search skills on Guildiwiki.org). This role was nerfed.
Now, the only role left to them is Spear chucklers. Until it is nerfed, too.
wynoski
lol...that didn't take long...
I never said that Warriors were bad, I just said that it is my least favorite class...I know they are useful...my Necro runs in fear from them unless I have enfeeble...one blade of corruption has wiped out the entire back line in the gates of maddness mission...
my experience with a warrior was that I got to a certain point and I needed better armor and I did not want to farm/find collectors for it. I am sure my w/Me would still be around today if I had gottent he armor.
As far as warrior hate...let's talk about the AI for N/Mo...I run with a guildie that has a Necro usually with an Me secondary...he will be ignored while I spend half the fight running for my life...
Talk about some hate...
And if paragons are useless because you cannot have a full part of them anymore, well I guess you are correct...that smack to me of a gimmick build. Would you ever do PVE with 8 warriors? How about 8 monks, etc...seems silly to me, but then again, I do not usually PUG and like my henchies and heros, but I am probably one of those noobs that is ruining the game...
I never said that Warriors were bad, I just said that it is my least favorite class...I know they are useful...my Necro runs in fear from them unless I have enfeeble...one blade of corruption has wiped out the entire back line in the gates of maddness mission...
my experience with a warrior was that I got to a certain point and I needed better armor and I did not want to farm/find collectors for it. I am sure my w/Me would still be around today if I had gottent he armor.
As far as warrior hate...let's talk about the AI for N/Mo...I run with a guildie that has a Necro usually with an Me secondary...he will be ignored while I spend half the fight running for my life...
Talk about some hate...
And if paragons are useless because you cannot have a full part of them anymore, well I guess you are correct...that smack to me of a gimmick build. Would you ever do PVE with 8 warriors? How about 8 monks, etc...seems silly to me, but then again, I do not usually PUG and like my henchies and heros, but I am probably one of those noobs that is ruining the game...
lyra_song
Quote:
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Originally Posted by glountz
Paragons were overpowered batteries (Energising finale, Aria of Zeal). This role was nerfed.
Paragons were overpowered protectors (Stand your ground, Incoming). This role was nerfed. Paragons were overpowered medics (Search skills on Guildiwiki.org). This role was nerfed. |
Multiple paragons could alternate and keep up these powerful skills continuously, keeping up health and energy of their other party members.
Not to mention, these powerful skills are on a VERY survivable character who has very good DPS and pressure.
The role of battery, buff, and medic has previously fallen to CASTER characters. They are powerful but squishy. Why have a squishy when a hard target can do it better and it can't be removed?
The paragon basically had no real glaring weakness (other than direct healing, which of course a monk would cover, and the paragon would cover the monk). This is not fun in PvP.
hence my previous statement:
Quote:
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Yes, the paragon has been taken down MANY pegs. But thats because it was good. It was just SOOOO good. Now its on par with the crappiness of the rest of the classes ^_^ If you played a Paragon from the beginning and didn't expect a nerf, you are clearly delusional. |
He's been nerfed out of his previous PvP role of being a jack of all trades.
Does that make him useless? No. He's just not as good, and yes theres other viable classes to fulfill the various roles he can do, but not all in one package.
We are creating a social stigma that further undermines the efforts of the Anet's designers to want to create VARIETY in builds. Instead of coming up with new ideas, we are dumping it and declaring it dead.
Voila, death to variety, death to innovation, imagination and discrimation to all players who even remotely like said class.
The Paragon is still viable in PvE with a proper TEAM built to complement it. The Paragon is no longer a juggernaut in PvP.
Alfrond
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shmanka
Thanks for the life lesson Oprah.
If you can't do math, there are more support then main characters at the moment. Not only that but I think you have the "wrong" definition of a support role. CDittric77 is right, close this thread or more people like this are going to post. |
glountz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
The Paragon is still viable in PvE with a proper TEAM built to complement it. The Paragon is no longer a juggernaut in PvP.
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Yes paraway is still powerful. Yes team based around one or more paragon is very effective. But no a lone paragon can't suit correctly in any PuG, or even guild groups. You basically only suit a PVE paragon in a full hero team builded around this paragon, generally other ones plus warriors/rangers.
If I want to help my friend guildie who don't have morgan, is an elementalist, along another friend who is a monk and don't have or want to suit his entire setup for paraway, my paragon's is next to useless on his own, unless making him a non-Aoe damage dealer with anthem of flame.
So basically, a lone paragon without team setup is useless in PVE (as well as in PvP).
You think this is a good thing, as it forces people to suit the entire team and think a common strategy.
I think this is a bad thing, as it forces people to suit the entire team and think a common strategy, something you NEVER HAVE in PVE unless you group specifically for, say, Elite missions.
BTW, Yes paragons were overpowered, by the lack of counters (as you say - uniterruptable, unremovable). A-net should have incorporated more counters along each professions than 2 poor necro spells. Now they are okay in paraway team, but I challenge you to incorporate a single support paragon (paramedic; paraprot; parabattery) effectively in a team.