"Emergent Complexity" skill system..how will this change the gameplay - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 17:02 - 1

this phrase is refering to the article on Wired:

"""Speaking of running around the world, that's something you'll actually be able to do; run, jump, basically just dork around however you like. When you land in a new world, O'Brien explained, you don't want to have to read a bunch of skill descriptions, you want to run around and jump and swing, so that's what you'll be able to do in Guild Wars 2. It's meant to be a learn-by-doing sort of situation--rather than have overly complex skills that take an excessive amount of brain matter to understand, players will learn less complicated skills that they will be encouraged to test out in any situation they can think of. What happens if you use this skill while jumping, or that one while surrounded by monsters? Who knows? Give it a whirl and find out! Strain referred to it as "emergent complexity," and if it works the way they say it will, I shall personally send them each a fruit basket. Having a wide variety of skills in a game is great, but the amount of reading and memorizing you usually have to do to have even the most functional ability in an MMO is enough to drop me into a deep state of catatonia."""

so far everything about GW2 I approve of...but when I saw this... I shuddered at the thought of a "city of heroes type" skill system where damage is not definite and effects are unclear...

I'm not sure about anyone else.. but I like to have the complex skill descriptions... It makes the time away from the game fun..thinking up builds and how they synergise with eachother

I can see the problems however with overcomplexity... I look at some MMOs and just blow them off because they look like you need a college degree in "how this game works"... and even my friends/family who are just starting GW seem to have the same feelings of this game

However...I for one do not want to just run around and hit things without a definite system of skills in place. I love the 8 skill system we currently use and will be sad to see this dissapear...if it does...

edit: the 8 skill system is apparently staying...whew ....here is the link with the news
http://www.gamona.de/pc/article/deta...08/start-2.htm

Series

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 17:11 - 2

The more I hear about GW2, the more I try to like it but find it harder and harder to.

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

W/E

28 Mar 2007 at 17:14 - 3

/agree

The 8-skill bar, the amount of synergy and thought that goes into making a workable build...
The overall breadth of skills and their effects, well, the skill system in general, is the best thing about GW.

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

28 Mar 2007 at 17:20 - 4

I would like A.Net to finaly release all of their damage formulas etc.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 17:25 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

The more I hear about GW2, the more I try to like it but find it harder and harder to.

I am not passing judgement quite yet... what they release may be better than anything we have seen as of yet...

they ARE the ones that brought to use the first GW so... we shall see. I just hope it's not a dumbing down like we have seen/heard on other games...

caugh{ SW GALAXIES }caugh

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

28 Mar 2007 at 17:38 - 6

Hi,

I'm not sure if I understood exactly what Anet meant there, but this could definitely be a HUGE improvement on MMOS, and possibly videogames. My guess is that the skill system is not changed in the game engine, only the interface between the skills and the player changes: you no longer get a skill as an "object" (buy it, get it from a quest) but as an "action" (do this and that).

Depending on how usable this system of getting skill is, it could be a lot of fun. It is a bit like in real-life: to become good a playing GW, you have to play it, try and fail, then improve by groping around. Basically I guess it's all about typing the right sequence of keys (I hope it won't become a street-fighter like process, e.g. hit F1, then X, then Ctrl+0, then A and P at the same time ...) but what I find interesting is that the process could be attached to the visual actions, e.g. to get Penetrating Blow you'd have to be good at aiming at parts of the ennemy body that does not have armors, or to get a Fireball you'd have to use Fire a lot and make some kind of movement to evocate the light of fire soon-to-be (see GW cinematic). In other words try to attach a visual meaning to skills, so instead of simply typing the 1 key to activate these beautiful movements for your skills we would do the reverse and do the movements to get the skills.

It's a bit like any sport, you have to try the moves to get the special attacks

Innit

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 17:41 - 7

See, they didn't actually state that GW2 would eliminate the skill system. They're just adding what I see as a very very cool system of skill effects.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 17:46 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

It's a bit like any sport, you have to try the moves to get the special attacks

actually thats a bit like console games...(not that a controller would be a bad thing...love my xbox)

but on a keyboard?? I kinda liked the click to move action... I can play while rocking my newborn to sleep.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

28 Mar 2007 at 17:52 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

actually thats a bit like console games...(not that a controller would be a bad thing...love my xbox)

but on a keyboard?? I kinda liked the click to move action... I can play while rocking my newborn to sleep.

Who knows, may be you'll get exclusive skills by only using your mouse?

(doubt that they'll give you extra-rare skills if it's your newborn typing randomly on the keyboard...but who knows?

)

ChaoticCoyote

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

Florida, USA

Imperial Order of the Iguana [IGGY]

R/

28 Mar 2007 at 17:57 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

The more I hear about GW2, the more I try to like it but find it harder and harder to.

The more I hear about GW2, the more I like it. The whole idea of "emergent complexity" makes me excited.

To each their own.

bug_out

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

R/E

28 Mar 2007 at 18:02 - 11

AS much as I hate to say it, if using skils in the game comes down to button mashing, a la Street Fighter, I won't be playing it.

Hopefully it won't be like that, cuz I am really looking forward to GW2.

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

28 Mar 2007 at 18:14 - 12

Hes talking about a new learning system for skills.

Reminds me a bit of Saga Frontier 2.

You have basic fighting skills (Swing, Feint, Block, Ready, Focus, Beat, Charge). Certain combos create new skills. like.....Swing two times, and it gives you access to the skill Roll Beat (unblockable), that sort of thing.

It lets you learn new skills to the technique you like to play (if you use swing and beat a lot, you learn more powerful multiple blows, if you use focus and charge before you attack, you get stronger single blows).

Theosebes

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 18:28 - 13

I will be kkeping an eye on this as well.

I like the GW skill system. Much like the movement system mentioned above; I like GW's movement system. If they make this like WoW where a melee character has to manually control being close enough to a target, and facing a target, they can count me out. Oftentimes I have to play with a baby in one arem, and while difficult, it's possible in GW1. It would be impossible in a system like WoW's

In any event, I will get in on the beta as much as possible, and see whether I like it. Hopefully the community will steer them in the right direction if they get a taste of the beta, and they don't like it.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 18:33 - 14

He is refering to not having to read skill descriptions....not just learning of skills...

button mashing..... exactly what I dont want to see...

what will happen to skills? if they are less complex.... if you dont have to read the descriptions... if you learn them by using them in different situations first??

say good bye to
[card]sever artery[/card] [card]gash[/card] for instance...

now you just have to push a combination of buttons???

beginners_luck

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/

28 Mar 2007 at 18:41 - 15

What would be amazing would be spellcasting via mouse gestures. I think Black and White did that, where you press control, for instance, swirl the mouse around, and you cast a spell. Spells with longer cast times could have more complicated gestures. Of course, that seems to fly in the face of them wanting to simplify skill descriptions.

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

28 Mar 2007 at 18:43 - 16

I think people are over reading this statement. I think he means should be able to figure out the basics of play the game w/o reading a manual.

Those games - easy to learn hard to master, like checkers

I'll give you an example. FFXI has some many things in the game / changes (new stuff to the game) - there is so much stuff you have to ask other players or read detailed online guides just to play the game. There is no more official stragety guides and the manual is an utter joke. In fact.. the official stargety guide (way outdated) was more of a how to actually play then actually a "stragety" guide.

What the dev would do is add a new feature, say a "storage" npc but unless they bothered to put in the manual (and you bought the game AFTER the feature), read patch notes, or just got the game .... you would be in the dark or have to oh wait here's a npc, what does he do... hmm how does this work. To try master FFXI you have to beg / ask / have a friend to show you the ropes or you will have a doof trial and error to get the basics down.

In fact the patch notes can be more "manual" then anything they ever printed or put in to the game.

Tozen

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

All Senses Failed [aSF]

A/N

28 Mar 2007 at 18:47 - 17

I'm excited about this goal. However, it is WAY too vague at the moment to get concerned over.

Some Possible Meanings:
1. Fewer total skills with more general uses (what the author is worried about I think)
2. Same skill system with a better nature of aquisition so that you naturally learn "easier" skills before harder ones.
3. Skills less dependent on so many variables by nature. (Example: See how complex Dervish and Assassin skills are in their skill descriptions)
4. Easy-to-learn but hard to master skills with varying levels of usefulness. (For example, imagine that instead of some dervish skills doing nothing right now unless under an enchantment, they always do SOMETHING regardless and if you're under an enchantment you get a bonus)
5. Manual aiming with less complex skills? A long shot, but hey, I think it would be cool.

If I can come up with 5 explanations in a minute, I shudder to think of ANet will come up with

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 18:57 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

I think he means should be able to figure out the basics of play the game w/o reading a manual.

maybe... but can you name a good RPG game that doesnt take at least a little time to learn? I dont want another button masher... it would not be original or interesting.

@Tozen
you are right . it is vague at the moment...it just sounds fishy...

I just hope we dont have #1. or #5 from your list

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

28 Mar 2007 at 19:09 - 19

No warm and fuzzy without more details. For example, how would something like this affect mesmers? When I'm assassin hunting in AB (for fun, you know...) it's nice to know Ineptitude will leave them blind while a snare slows them down as they degen into nothingness while I remove feigned neutrality and pop clumsiness on them if they still try swinging... etc...

The details in the skills make the skills.

Granted, the new system may wind up blowing us all away in it's amazingness... but right now... no warm and fuzzy...

Theus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

W/Mo

28 Mar 2007 at 19:10 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Hes talking about a new learning system for skills.

Reminds me a bit of Saga Frontier 2.

You have basic fighting skills (Swing, Feint, Block, Ready, Focus, Beat, Charge). Certain combos create new skills. like.....Swing two times, and it gives you access to the skill Roll Beat (unblockable), that sort of thing.

It lets you learn new skills to the technique you like to play (if you use swing and beat a lot, you learn more powerful multiple blows, if you use focus and charge before you attack, you get stronger single blows).

So..if your method is true,We'll have to grind for skills...

..Yeah.If thats true,RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that.RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that hard.

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 19:10 - 21

I also don't like the way it sounds right now. It really does sound too much like a button mashing deal where combos happen if you button mash in the right order. I much prefer the way things are, where builds are effective based on their synergy with each other.

No matter what though, I'll give it a try. I really hope we really are overreacting though.

EDIT: Ok I just read Lyra's post about skills getting better after long periods of use. I'm not sure what to think of that until I get more details. In Ultima Online, you had the same system but no level system. Swinging your axe over and over again improved your axe skills but it was fine because you had no levels to worry about. But in GW2, we have levels in addition to improving skills through repetitive use? Sounds scary.

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

28 Mar 2007 at 19:17 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

maybe... but can you name a good RPG game that doesnt take at least a little time to learn? I dont want another button masher... it would not be original or interesting.

@Tozen
you are right . it is vague at the moment...it just sounds fishy...

I just hope we dont have #1. or #5 from your list

Kinda, but doing the reverse

Valkerye Profile - SquareEnix (original PSOne)

Brilliant hybrid Action/RPG with elements of training npc's and sending them off - meeting the demand of Odin and the war at the cost of losing experienced players in your party having to take low levels in to zones and surving. Mean while there is a "countdown" then ends the game when as you do "turns" in the game. Send the wrong skill characters odin starts losing the war (as turns go on), and the types he 'wants" changes as time goes on so you have a window of opportunity.

Have to play / muddle your way through 1/3 of the game before you get a complete grasp on how to do it.... then your screwed and should restart.

The "current" newest game PS2 in the series has recruitment but more standard linear plot line and no "count down timers" / do not lose your people your recruit. That, and at the start it doesn't even expose you to that system where you learn the basics. Your actually fighting Odin and another Valkerye

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 19:33 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Kinda, but doing the reverse

Valkerye Profile - SquareEnix (original PSOne)

um.... i had to go look up the website just to know what the heck you were talking about.... besides the good points in that game are far from traditional MMORPG.

even though it sounds pretty cool

Onarik Amrak

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2007

Astral Revenants

P/W

28 Mar 2007 at 19:42 - 24

I think you're all over-analysing the quote. All I think he meant is that jumping while using a skill would have a different effect than standing and using it. Where does it mention button mashing and 3D fightert-type mechanics? In the PCGamer article it was very clear they're not going to implement twitch reaction style fighting or anything like that. This is an R P G.

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 19:45 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I think you're all over-analysing the quote. All I think he meant is that jumping while using a skill would have a different effect than standing and using it. Where does it mention button mashing and 3D fightert-type mechanics? In the PCGamer article it was very clear they're not going to implement twitch reaction style fighting or anything like that. This is an R P G.

And yet...isnt using a skill while jumping to have a different effect a fighting game mechanic? Tell me that I'm wrong. What RPG has that type of gameplay?

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 19:56 - 26

he specifically adresses the need to read complex skill descriptions... players will not need to read skill descriptions??? how can that mean that nothing will change exept when and where you will use the skill?

Onarik Amrak

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2007

Astral Revenants

P/W

28 Mar 2007 at 20:01 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And yet...isnt using a skill while jumping to have a different effect a fighting game mechanic? Tell me that I'm wrong. What RPG has that type of gameplay?

I can think of 2 examples off the top of my head. Gothic 3 and Oblivion.

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

28 Mar 2007 at 20:07 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I can think of 2 examples off the top of my head. Gothic 3 and Oblivion.

Jade Empire too

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 20:10 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I can think of 2 examples off the top of my head. Gothic 3 and Oblivion.

Those are not traditional RPGs. Those are very great RPGs with heavy FPS elements. I dont mind games like those having twitch based gameplay.

However, I dont see how you can deny a skill having a different effect while jumping is NOT a fighting game mechanic. It might not necessarily be a bad thing but our current skill system was fine. I dont see why twitch based elements needed to be put in.

Sorry but if you want to discuss things, let's be honest and call things for what they are. Jumping + using a skill for a different effect IS a button mashing mechanic.

Darksun

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

USA

Karr's Castle

W/E

28 Mar 2007 at 20:22 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I think you're all over-analysing the quote. All I think he meant is that jumping while using a skill would have a different effect than standing and using it. Where does it mention button mashing and 3D fightert-type mechanics? In the PCGamer article it was very clear they're not going to implement twitch reaction style fighting or anything like that. This is an R P G.

QFT!
It just sounds like they want the game more sandbox. More open, more interaction with the world. More options. But not necessarily more complicated. I'm excited to hear more. ANET knows what they are doing.

Onarik Amrak

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2007

Astral Revenants

P/W

28 Mar 2007 at 20:29 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Jade Empire too

How could I forget Jade Empire! It is one of my favourite games of all time!

I suppose you're right in that Gothic 3 and Oblivion are sort of hybrid games. I just don't see jumping and attacking as a fighting game mechanic per se... I mean in Mario you could jump and throw a fireball and the trajectory would be different. Maybe I just have an issue with people referring to this mechanic in a very negative way.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 20:30 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

O'Brien explained, you don't want to have to read a bunch of skill descriptions, you want to run around and jump and swing, so that's what you'll be able to do in Guild Wars 2. ...

how can you read that and not think button mashing? I am not over analysing... I am simply saying that this sounds alot like a 'dumbing' down of the perfectly fine system they already have.

you cannot 'swing' currently in GW.... so? what does that mean? a swing button? ...I certainly hope not. (I am thinking of swinging a weapon...not swinging from a tree...which is a possibility...but kinda weird to think about...like a bunch of tarzan asuras =p )

btw.. (I would not mind a Jade Empire type of play..really..that was a great game...just very very different from the original GW)
http://jade.bioware.com/specialedition/gallery.html

The Ernada

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 20:35 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

How could I forget Jade Empire! It is one of my favourite games of all time!

I suppose you're right in that Gothic 3 and Oblivion are sort of hybrid games. I just don't see jumping and attacking as a fighting game mechanic per se... I mean in Mario you could jump and throw a fireball and the trajectory would be different. Maybe I just have an issue with people referring to this mechanic in a very negative way.

Haha. Sorry but you keep proving my point. Mario is very much a hand-eye coordination game. I'm not saying the mechanic is a bad thing since I DO play those types of games but GW has always been a "thinking man's" game because of how the skills and build system worked. I just think it would be a sad thing to see it replaced by twitch based gameplay.

But as I said before, the quote was too vague and there's too little information to know what's going on.

Sir Skullcrasher

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

California

15 over 50 [Rare]

W/Mo

28 Mar 2007 at 20:43 - 34

I'll wait until we hear words from A-Net directly in regards to the new skill systems.

wongba

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

Alliance of Xen [XoO]

28 Mar 2007 at 20:58 - 35

how is this game supposed to be the successor to gw again? defining what skills have what effects seems like a core aspect of the game. in a general way, it gives everybody access to the same information.

if u don't define what effects a skill has, then the only way for ppl to know for sure is to look it up on guildwiki2 or something where ppl have conducted extensive testing w/ every conceivable combination of weapon/armor/condition/buff/hex/skill use/physical action or do it urself. given the time it took to test and work out dmg equations it seems insane to base your entire skill system on something that isn't concretely defined.

if they are really basing their system philosophically on emergent complexity, it's difficult to see how anyone except those w/ fantastic iq can understand what will occur. it seems to indicate that even the developers won't have but a general notion of all the consequences of using a certain skill in a certain situation. w/ all the skills in the 3 gw chapters, and well defined skill effects, ppl still get away w/ horribly imbalanced builds. how much worse will it be if the consequences aren't defined?

i know i'm speculating from some very vague descriptions, but the wording "emergent" and "complexity" is pretty well used. see the wikipedia entry on emergence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 21:08 - 36

Hm. It depends.

I'm with Ernada that I liked the 8 skills system, and making a build that syngergized with the group.

However, at this moment, it doesn't sound like Guild Wars 2 is going to be a pretty big party-based game. So in PvE, this actually sounds fun. Button Combos = Old School = Win.

It is way to vague to tell at this moment. Firstly, because I hardly have a clue what O'Brien is saying, and secondly we have no idea how PvP works yet.

So yes, I'd like to wait until I hear more.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

W/

28 Mar 2007 at 21:52 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

.However, at this moment, it doesn't sound like Guild Wars 2 is going to be a pretty big party-based game. So in PvE, this actually sounds fun. Button Combos = Old School = Win.

but what about pvp?

I like not having to take a full party in pve...but in pvp thats what it is all about. Good builds>button Combos

no more 'top guild' team builds?? just running around killing things like a big 'Battle toads' Alliance battle. lol

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

28 Mar 2007 at 22:33 - 38

What about PvP? I'm wondering how this would work in a PvP setting. It seems like it could be more frantic than it already is.

I also thought, what kind of "combos" would be fun for a ranger? The only thing that pops into mind is being able to actually have to aim the bow.

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

28 Mar 2007 at 22:49 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What about PvP? I'm wondering how this would work in a PvP setting. It seems like it could be more frantic than it already is.

Think about World PvP instead. This "emergent complexity" system will screw that up.

My philosophy is that if you can manage to subscribe and install an MMO correctly, you can understand any instructions. The fact that the ArenaNet devs want to make the game easier to comprehend is an insult. Seriously. We're not idiots.

This is the same direction that SWG: NGE took. And most of us know how that ended.

Then again, ArenaNet constantly tries to make GW idiotproof. I still never understood why they added indicators in LA/Kaineng/Kamadan to tell you how to access other continents...

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

28 Mar 2007 at 22:51 - 40

No matter what degree of idiot-proofing you do, there will always come a bigger idiot to challenge it.