Access to Unlocked Skills in PvE

Thats a great idea.

Thank you, I just thought a discount is better then getting stuff for free.

your character isnt god he just can't all of a sudden come up with skills out of thin air. Though if the gem was customized by the character who got it sort of like armor so you cant trade it to other players other then those who on your account.

I see the trolls have accused people of being too lazy to farm for skill points and gold. And then I see the same trolls saying that these are farmers who just want skills available so they can farm.

So which is it? Except for Lyra, most of the rest of you arguing against this have no clue what you're talking about.

Peace.

The game itself if you do all the quest gives you enough money for about 2 maybe 3 15k armours but with buying skills your lucky to get 1 with the outrageous price of Globs of Ectoplasm/obsidian shards and ruby/sapphire and whatever the hell the purpose of Diamonds are!

I love the ideas of FoW armor, dyes, titles, green items, etc. That doesn't mean I personally intend to acquire them. I think they are a wonderful addition to the game.

I am a casual gamer. I play games, casually. I don't get 5 hours a day to play. I don't want to spend the time I do have farming, grinding levels, or anything along those lines. I do want to have fun with very versatile strategic options.

The scary thing is that you are serious. I don't enjoy gathering the funds and skillpoints, and neither do a lot of people. I do, however, enjoy doing quests for skills (the first time I acquire them.).

Do you get the difference? Doing something enjoyable that requires time and work to get a reward is acceptable. Doing something mindless, like farming, is not fun in the slightest. The amount of time required to do so matters not, it's the fact that time IS required doing something I don't enjoy.

Yes to the first, no to the second. You desire character development. You desire time spent doing something mindless to reward you with a more powerful character. I desire my ability to play better to reward me with a more powerful character.

Refund Points were removed. The grind, or character development that you like to call it, was a boring and repetitive process that was pointless. It limited how you could use that specific character due to how much time you had spent, not because of how good a player you are. Most of the same arguments were issued then as well. Can you please explain to me the differences between refund points and access to unlocked skills? Realism? Character to character vs an aspect of a single character?

The fun in GW is primarily using your character and changing your character as you see fit.

It's sad to see the grind monkeys controlling this game. And it's sad to see anet catering to them in Guild wars 2 with the high level cap. This could have been an awesome game if it werent for the click junkies who actually like the mindless grind. I completely agree that Pve won't improve as long as people are so close minded. But I guess if the only thrill in your life is the sense of accomplishment through grind then who can blame them?

Nothing wrong with grind monkeys

EVERY game should have a reward for people who put their time into it. Sure it shouldn't be anything to overwhelming that destroys casual gamers but self recognition is always wanted. Some people don't get noticed for how hard they work in life, GW atleast gives those people chances to redeem themselves.

On the other hand some people have other priorities, school,work,clubs,kids, penguin worship....

so they shouldn't be forgotten

Then theres lazy people, they are the most important because they come into games like waves, and leave it like a hurricane. Though when they enjoy something they become addicts.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth, because i dont appreciate it and i bite. And I draw blood when i bite.

I do desire character development. This is true.

Time spent vs Player ability. This is the mantra of GW. And it is true.

But your ability to play better does not reward you anything physically inside the game.

This is proven by PvP. Everyone has access to the same skills, same weapons, same classes, etc. Its an even playing field.

However, being a better player does give you the advantage of KNOWLEDGE.

A newbie player in PvP doesn't know the builds, doesn't know teamwork, etc and will get slaughtered by a superior player, even if they have identical equipment.

This is applicable in PvE as well.

A veteran player will burn through the game even with a newbie character with zero acquired skills vs a Newbie player with a newbie character.

The advantage belongs to the player who knows more and this is a balanced advantage, since this advantage is the player itself and nothing to do with equipment or skills. Because it is a balanced playing field, your knowledge can overcome another player because they wont have superior equipment or skills to bolster their weak playing ability.

That point shows how Heros having access to unlocked skills, and being able to buy unlocked skills immediately is imbalanced.

Well first of. Refund points were exploitable since you could use it in explorable areas. I remember my guildmate had this monk farming variation that involved swapping head pieces and reseting attributes after casting the maintainable enchantments and then switching attibutes towards smiting.

This alone would be reason enough to change the system.

The new system is much less restrictive, but also less immersive, and i actually don't like it too much, even if it is convenient. I would much rather prefer a NPC to reset attributes than have it built into the GUI.


Character development can equal grind. This is arguable. Ive shown that a character can be developed without deviating from the primary storyline, so it would be zero grind. Further development outside that, would equal grind.

Some players do enjoy it, because it does give a sense of satisfaction for "work" or time spent. It is only a grind if you find it to be a grind.

Character development is a natural progression in the game as you play through it. If you play through the game naturally.

As for refund points vs unlocked skills.

Refund points were a system that was exploitable, didn't make sense in the RPG sense, and most important of all IMBALANCED. It gave advantage to players who could farm lots and lots of XP. A player with superior playing skill but not enough XP is disadvantaged.

The skill system is imbalanced as well presently. It gives advantage to players who have played repeatedly, and gives them access to many many skills early on, vs those who have unlocked few.

You know. Now that you point it out....the system DOES need to be changed.

The skill system should reward the actual player's skill level, not how many skills youve unlocked (which is time spent ie: grind).

Therefore, i propose that the skill trainers should no longer sell skills you've unlocked, on basis that it gives advantag to players who grinded to unlock skills.

Me, as a veteran player, should be able to start a brand new account, and not be disadvantaged vs olders accounts who have spent more time in the game. This will equalize the playing field for new characters and show that only the player's skill matters and not the character's skill pool.

Lyra that is not all accurate.

The skill pool reflects your skill.

Your not taking on waves of monsters in pve with no skills, thinking that your skill will save you I hope -_-.

However A-net's original idea, dont argue please people and whine, but they original idea from my knowledge was to finish pve and go into pvp. Now some of us want to make pvp chars but we want to do pve first. It's not exactly rushing for everyone but more of a new perspective into the game. My assassin had a blast going into low level areas and just watching me 1 hit everything with auto attacks....felt like a god, however that wont be the case since even at a lower level without the attribute points you wont do much damage.

I proposed a discount crystal that can only be obtained after beating the game, you can give it to your other new characters and get those skills you worked for and payed thousands for. Perhaps to balance it out make 3/4 different crystals (1 for eye of north) and have each crystal only work at the skill trainer in that continent.

Im not talking about the skill bar.

When i say skill pool, im talking about all the skills available to your character.

Having a large amount of skills available to the character does not prove that a player is a good player or skilled.

All it proves is that the character has a lot of skills. Gathering all these skills takes a lot of time, and wouldn't giving players access to these skills on their new characters be in essence giving people an advantage for grinding? Completely opposite of what Guild Wars is about. Player Skill > Time spent.

I put them there to see which ones you spit out.

As do I.

Also agreed.

Oh my.. you are taking knowledge of something and calling it skill.
I know the game through and through. I know the popular builds. I've been playing since release.

There are people that have just started the game and can easily kick my bum. I'm honestly a bad player. Having time invested in the game has given me knowledge that most people just starting wouldn't have, but implementing that knowledge is totally different than simply possessing it.

How so? Please, draw it out for me in the most simplistic of terms.

True, but it's not the reason the community complained.

Immersion in an RPG is usually an important factor, but in GW it's designed in a completely different manner than your traditional RPG. Kinda off-topic in a way, but mind my asking why you don't play WoW, FFXI, or something similar? What has kept you around GW so long?

The only part of GW I truly enjoy is their immense skill system, so primarily everything outside of RA from my point of view is considered grind.

90% of the game is against this quote. I'm wanting them to take it to the full 100% regarding everything that actually affects how well your character can perform.

Perhaps they should do my view on the skill sytem in Hard Mode, and your view on the system in normal mode? I'm fine with comming to an agreement, but I'd also like to see it all from your point of view since you are so persistant about it. I've rather enjoyed the discussion thus far..

I really like your twisting it to the view you have, but I sadly agree with you in a way. Instead of taking the half turn they did away and started from ground zero again, I'd prefer them to do the full 360.

I think skill trainers should have ALL non-elite skills, and quests that give skills should let you select which ones to unlock.

Very nice, and very well done. I am truly impressed.

You are taking the view that everyone shouldn't have any skills at all, while I am saying they should have access to all of them.

I would prefer: I think skill trainers should have ALL non-elite skills, and quests that give skills should let you select which ones to unlock.

That way, we'd have our imaginations to use as we saw fit instead of your suggestion of re-grinding for everything every new character (which will still result in time spent being more valuable than your ability to play.

I'll have to disagree. Knowledge is acquired from practice.

You can read about a build. But you don't really know it until you try it out.

Until you know through application, thats not knowledge, thats more like simply information (yikes! semantic argument run!) and not at all real knowledge/wisdom.

Of the newer MMORPGs, ive played: WoW, DDO, Phantasy Star Universe and just about every free MMORPG (Flyff, 9 Dragons, etc).

I choose Guild Wars, because:

1. I work 40+ hours a week. Paying money to play isn't cost effective.
2. Other MMOs do not give you the option to "not grind". Everything in the game ultimately is designed to build stronger and stronger and more powerful characters and once you reach the end cap, theres really nothing left to do. Don't even get me started on PvP.....Guild Wars PvP destroys everything else.
3. My friends. I love my friends. We play GW. So I play GW.

I dont understand this too much, please explain?

I wouldn't have continued if it wasn't an enjoyable discussion.

Ah this is where to come to agree to disagree now. You understand my position and i understand yours.

If you mean all skill trainers will sell you all the non-elite skills, regardless of what you unlocked (Like the skill trainer at Ember Light Camp..) then i would definitely agree, since this would apply to ALL players, regardless of how much of the game they have played.

Quest rewarding us with chosen skills would be nice as well. I think that fits with my idea of Battle Commendations/Luxon Totems/etc. being accepted by skill trainers.

The point of view i chose was an extreme one to show that the perspective of "Skill should be rewarded, not time spent", which seems to be the basis of your argument, can be used to fuel the point of view opposite to yours.

In reality, i think that would be silly, and just a bit too harsh. I think a compromise is a much better solution.

The only real bad thing here is that each time you go through the game, you'd still be repeating boring quests and what-not.. but if you could actually choose how your character develops by doing whatever quests you enjoy and skipping the ones you don't.....

As long as there was a discount, no gold requirement at all, or a discount and no skill point required for unlocked skills... I think it'd work out well. Granted, if I'd unlocked it before, I could unlock it faster a second or third time through, but there would still be a necessity to do something first so you don't just have hundreds of skills at your disposal right away.

I also think that ascension should do something more for you than what it does currently, since changing secondaries becomes available, it's borderline stupid to even use that functionality. It'd be easier, if you had the character slot, to just start a new character over in most cases.

I just dislike having to repeat stuff. If skills were truly balanced, it wouldn't matter if you had X skill in pre or Y skill. Most PvP players always say that skills need to be balanced around GvG, but I also think that mobs should be balanced around that balance as well.

I can't believe this is still going on. It comes down to "I want 50 skills NOW, and I want it free". If that's what you want then at least be honest about it and say it straight up. I don't agree with just giving everyone everything for free, since then there's no point to playing. But that's my opinion. But if that is what you want, then at least admit it. I'd at least have some respect for that. I'd still think you were lazy, but at least I'd respect you for being upfront.

Short of prophecies, you get 3 skill points a mission and plenty from quests. This is on top of hero points and points from leveling up. If you actually play, rather than want to buy like 20 skills at once, I don't know how this isn't enough. And as for the tired old anti cookie cutter argument. I won't even go into how you shouldn't use cookie cutter as bad. You want to experiment? Thats's good. But can you honestly tell me that you got some bright flash for a build and suddenly needed 20 skills at once? Considering you only carry 8 skills at a time. And one slot is usually locked out for a res. Yeah, as you go on you want to pick up plenty of skills. But that's over time. Not at once, unless you suddenly just have to have that perfect farming build you just saw. Playing normally? You play, get maybe a point from level up and maybe 3 from the last mission. Oh gosh, 4 skills points I can buy skills to experiment with. And if you're just tweaking builds, well, how often do you swap out all 8 skills unless you're farming. If you say you need it for pve, well, you should have easily amassed all the skills for the builds you need OVER time. So, your lvl3 in kamadan can't get all the skills for every build you've ever run? Cry me a river. I've played through all 3 campaigns and started plenty of new characters. And guess what, if you actually play through pve rather than just farm, I've never not had enough skills. And if someone's so anal they won't let you party unless your skills are just so? You're better off without them. All they want is a hero, not a adventuring buddy. Some places, namely the elite farming areas, are pretty strict on builds. But hey, you want to farm, put in some time. You'll soon find you got more skill points and money then you know what to do with. But else where? Never seen a party kick someone if they had some variations. Especially if you can actually tell them why you're running what you are if they ask. You do talk, right?

As for gold, you don't have to farm the UW 24/7 to afford this. They have since capped costs at 1 plat. Ok, if you set out to buy 20 skills at once, then yeah, maybe its expensive. But if you actually PLAY, even say an hour or so, even not farming, just selling WHITES and picking up the little piles of gold, you'll find yourself pulling in at least 2-3k. So you can't buy 20 skills per hour? You'll have to either settle for getting 2-3 at a time or play more? Not seeing how this is unfair. And if you got nightfall, they practically hand you free plat if you can be bothered to go get it. And hero skill trainers are free.

Can't get the skills where you want? But I'm in kamadan, the first city ever, and I can't get ALL my skills from the trainer? Yeah, so? And you can actually get all the skills if you can be bothered too. Unlocks from pvp balth faction are available from all skill trainers. But wait, you HATE pvp. Why should you have to pvp to unlock a skill, right? Well, lucky for you then. Go do the basic pvp training arena's quest from the isles of the nameless. Four fights against 4 AI monkeys that even a blind, one armed ape could pwn. Pretend its a pve mob of 4 who drop no loot. You're limited to 2k a day from this I think, but it takes like 10 minutes to get the 2k. Thats like 2 skills unlocked and available from any trainer per day. If you only play for an hour, that's 10 minutes gone and 50 minutes to make 2k. And you can have your uber build right at lvl3. Hardly grind. Unless you think killing things and taking there stuff is grind, in which case you're stuffed. Since that is pretty much the essence of pve.

Well, except for elites, but considering they're elite, well. If you care about balance at all, I don't even need to explain how having all elites available right from the start would break the game. Low attributes? So what? Plenty of elites are still effective at no points, and some are unlinked. How would that work? Just break pve fullstop.

And as for the "my other guys unlocked this so all my characters from now on should get it"? Well, in pvp, you do since that's account based.. But in pve? That's CHARACTER based. Some were going on about being an artist and changing to a fireman. Yes, you still got all those arts skills you LEARNED. YOU. Your character is a W/Mo for example. You decide you want to become a W/E. So you change. If you change back, you still got all the Mo skills you learned with that character. Should you now also get all the skills for an ele you learned from a DIFFERENT character? No. Because YOU haven't LEARNED it. I'm an artist. I change to a fireman. My friend (who is NOT me) is a fireman. I still have my arts skills, but does this mean that I should have all the fireman skills my friend has before I've gone through basic training or put in the time to learn the new fireman skills? I mean, I wish. My uncles a doctor. I'd love it if I could now call myself a doctor without actually going to uni and then the internship it all. But is this ever gonna happen? I'd say no.

As for it being boring repeating it for other characters, well, no one said you have to do every quest everytime. I did every quest through with my main, but I CHOSE to skip most sidequests with my later characters. Why? Do I want to fed-ex all over kaineng? No. SO I chose not to do it. You can choose not to do it too. But that doesn't give us the right to demand the quest reward when we chose not to do the quest. It's almost like leeching in FA. Oh, I don't want to actually play FA, but I want to get the rewards anyway. Its a sick attitude, and the worse thing is that I'm seeing it more and more as time goes on. What happened to the old "if you want something, then earn it". If you want it, work for it, else go without. So it takes you a week to get 8 skills playing only a few hours per week. So what. You get them all the same, the only difference is that you don't get it given to you right from the start. Anyway, sorry for the rant, just getting sick of leechers and people who are too lazy to put in the effort to get what they want.

Wow. Your post was long. Yet it said absolutely nothing and was nothing more than just a rant with a few personal attacks mixed in.

What do leechers have to do with all this by the way? And Im sick and tired of the "ur just lazy" arguments. Any improvement can be seen as "lazy" you know.

Lets not have an auction house because you're too lazy to sit there for hours spamming! Or let's take out the option to map travel because people are getting too lazy to walk to areas. Or let's not have more storage because you're too lazy to get a job and buy an extra character slot.

So please stop with the stupid "ur too lazy" flames. When your arguments consists of "ur too lazy to farm" then doesnt that tell you that something is wrong? Is this what the game is about? Farming?

Why should I stop with the "too lazy" argument. We unlock all skills fro all characters. So why not all armour with all characters? Why not all runes with all characters? I found and unlocked a sup vigor with one character, why can't all my characters have it? After all I found it once, why do I have to find or buy it again? And same with all weapons and mods. So after you have been handed everything, what's left to do? Well pvp, but I doubt many pver's will actually go there. So tell me what will you do in pve? Watch cutscenes? Is that what you want pve to become? Forget any character developement at all? You can make your character just like pvp, unlocks are universal. Why don't we just scrap pve, make an AI arena with maps from all pve zones and fill it with dumb AI mobs. Who drop no treasure since you already have all you need so money and items become pointless. It sounds good and a great shortcut, but tell me how long do you thing pve is going to last if you get nothing for it? Take away killing random monsters and taking their loot, whats left? All the stuff you mentioned is for convenience, but this? This opens the door for all unlocks. That's not convenience. That kills pve full stop. Pve is about the items, about skills for your character. After you have all your gear, runes and skills, tell me what's left to do in pve?

Kazjun, you are committing one of the world's most popular argumentative cheats: the straw man. That's when you refute a point that nobody made, and then act as though you refuted a point that was made.

We just need to delete realists from the game. End of problem.


Srsly.


DELTREE *.NUB


Character progression? PSHAWWW!

Your character can bloody well spend its time progressing through the story line. Doing extra quests and LARPING in LA.

And what about time spent?

NOT giving unlocks is blatantly telling pvp players that their time would be better spent in pve. Atleast that way when they want to customize a character with weapon and armor skins they already have the skills. :/


What about the pvp unlock packs??!?! No PvE ppl buy them...

If anet wanted to actually make some money, they would implement this as an incentive to sell those pvp packs....


From top to bottom every single "role player" has killed what this game could have been with idea's that are now roughly a decade old. Get over it, character progression != character acquisition.

There was a time where Guild Wars a MMORPG, then before they even let it loose they turned it into a CORPG. Now please let's try to keep the RP part. I wouldn'T like to have just a COG. Hope fully GWEN seem like its going in the right direction...

Hmmm... I like the concept, they would need to make ascension harder than faction/NF though. Otherwise, yes elites should not be obtainable that way.

So the point isn't that you don't want to put time in? Make it easier? Sounds good don't it. But tell me, for every pro argument, take out skills and put in runes/insignias/inscription. Works doesn't it? SO if you did this for skills, why shouldn't you do it for everything else?

Don't just look at the short term, cause if this gets in, how long before people bring this up for runes/mods/weapon skins/etc? Then what? Character creation becomes like pvp? How long do you think pve will last after they make pve account based rather than character based? And you get all unlocks. Can you say that after you've completed the campaign once and done all the leftover quests, that you're doing anything except getting skills and items? Or money to get skills and items. Give a player all that, and he'll be happy. Sure. But after, when he's logged into his pve character and there's nothing left to do? What then? Keeping people coming back to kill monsters so they can trick out their character's is all that's left in pve. Take that out and you may as well just shut down pve. Can you say that I'm wrong on that?