Access to Unlocked Skills in PvE

Again, you're trying to refute arguments that no one has made and using extreme exaggerations. Seems like most everyone on the other side of this issue is doing this except for Lyra and a couple others.

No one is asking for "everything on a silver platter" No, we are not "lazy", in fact we want access to unlocked skills so we can play and experiment more. Is that lazyness? No, we are not farmers "looking to try out the latest farming builds" And no we don't want to play Tetris.

Any other garbage arguments you want to throw out there?

I guess what i wanna hear is an argument to support the OP that doesn't boil down to "I want ____ " or "I don't want ____ ".

And what suggestion doesnt boil down to those two things?

if it was for me i would have the choice of immediately creatin a level20 pve char with all skills and elite skills available.
i dont actually know anyone who enjoys levellin up a char....maybe the first time....maybe even the 2nd time.....but then it gets just painful and a waste of time.
lets all be masochists and keep it as its is.....THX

How about this Lyra - It is reasonable to expect that certain amounts of game content is achievable by someone playing the game normally (ie going out and questing, doing missions etc). In order to be able to play a decent amount of styles, a benchmark of all primaries +20 secondary skills would be appropriate.

This would cost (130+20*9)*10 = 3100 skill points and 3100 plat (ignoring the price ramp and skill quests) - I don't think that anyone would argue that 3100 plat is within the reach of someone playing normally.

You are doing Strawman again.

Besides, you hae to put considerate work to unlocking in first place. skills, noone asked this to be connected with UAS either.

I wholeheartedly agree with the premise.
If there's one thing that prevents me from playing all of the classes, it's the knowledge that I'd have to grind three campaigns all over again to get the same level of flexibility I have on my favoured characters. The prospect of doing this another x times over is preventatively tedious.
And as for PvP, there's just no point me taking my PvE character into PvP anymore. There's no way they can be as flexible as a PvP toon, and to be honest, if I can't effectively PvP with characters I've spent years developing, well, that's a major turn-off.

One of the points I see the opposition arguing is that this would kill the PvE game off; that if you had access to all skills immediately, you'd get bored and would no longer want to play the old content.

And this is just completely and utterly wrong.

My most played character is my warrior, who has all of the warrior skills and is an Elite Skill Hunter to boot.
And where will you find him?
Most likely, you'll find him in the Crystal Desert playing the ascension trial missions over and over again, just because I love them.
I don't get any great rewards for playing here. Most players don't realise that they've just been helped (and I don't tell them ). The gold I get from playing here is almost non-existent. But I always end up coming back here.

Why?

This character has an almost infinite amount of build variations available to him. And experimenting with potential builds in an area like this never gets boring.
If my other characters had the same level of flexibility that my warrior had, hell, I'd be spoiled for choice!
I may actually play my dervish / ritualist / paragon / elementalist if it were this enjoyable to do so.
As it stands, it would be a chore to get these characters to the same level of flexibility, and I don't play games to work. Those of you who think that to have fun, you should have to work mindlessly for it first, well, you've got some screwed-up priorities right there.
That may very well be the case in real life, but for the love of Mike, this is a GAME, and in games you shouldn't have to emulate your daily work-related drudgery. Games are there to make life that little bit more enjoyable.

I'm guessing that a lot of the people arguing against this don't have a career, or if so, haven't been working for long.
When you've been in work for a few years, well, then maybe you'll understand why people want to come home and play games, and why they want those games to be fun.
Sorry to sound patronising, but it's pretty much the only reason I can see people arguing against this.
That and internet willy-waving, but those people are playing the wrong game in the first place.
WoW is the place for willy-wavers.

ROFLMAO! This is well thought-out and witty riposte. I guess that's why they invented television, to cut out the tedium of the intermediate game-play.

Quoted for Truth! Great post!

Some people forget that this game is a COMPETITIVE Online Roleplaying Game. It's not about who grinds all day and night, it's about who can make the best builds and run them effectively- and most of all, about fun!

I don't really see a problem with it. Who cares if a new character is overpowered in pvE. But if that is the only issue with it, then hey, lets put a restriction that sais that those skills unlocked on other characters become usable on other characters after they become level 20.

dr1zz_one said "For those that want everything handed to them on a platter, thats just too bad."

PVP players have access to all skills unlocked by other characters. I don't see the big deal with having all the monk skills that I earned on my R/Mo available to my newly minted PVE Mo/A. I mean if i minted a PVP Mo/A I would have access.

But no worries, I like guildwars either way.

At first... I would say no to access to unlocked in pve....

That being said, the more my hero's are better then me because they have access to everything I unlocked... kinda wishing I had this access to.

I fine with the system as it is, but I would no object if anet did that. I still end up having to unlock everything the 1st time anyway.

(joke) I like the earlier Lyra_Song. Can we go back there please? (/joke)

I wholeheartedly agree with your idea of discounting unlocked skills!

Can we discuss measures that are in the sensible middle ground, as opposed to the extremes of "Yuo suck if yuo dont farm for evarythang so git crackin" and "new players should start the game with all skills unlocked"?

Thx!
TabascoSauce

If the PvP edition packs unlocked the sills for all PvE characters too, I'd most likely buy all three packs. The time saved would be well worth another $120. The cost isn't justifiable however to simply unlock skills for heroes and PvP characters.

How about Anet offers a "Premium PvE Upgrade" to the store. For a low price, $10-$20 or so, your PvE characters can use all unlocked skills. If you want to build your characters, then you can do so by not buying the upgrade and save your cash. If you want to save time, chances are you will be willing to dish out a few bucks- time is money, after all. That way, EVERYBODY wins! Of course, they HAVE to have a "Premium PvE Trial Weekend", where all players have it for FREE over the weekend, then they can watch as tons of cash flow in on Monday

Now, about Skill Hunter. Here's some ideas. Note that Anet is planning on making Campaign specific skill hunter titles (like "Tyrian Skill Hunter", all prophecy elites) so these ideas take into account this future change. If the change never happens, adjust them as you see fit:

-Skill Hunter is disabled for people who buy the Premium PvE Upgrade. After all, people who want to save time from unnecessary grind probably don't care too much about most titles
-Skill Hunter works differently for them. Instead of having "Skill Hunter", they will have "Skill Collector" or something like that. Skill Collector has 1 level, so the titles are Tyrian Skill Collector, Canthan Skill Collector, and Elonian Skill Collector (of course, if the Skill Hunter change never happens, there would only be one Skill Collector title as well). Once you unlock ALL skills of that campaign, not just Elite, and ALL core skills, you get the Skill Collector title.
-This is a big change but I think this idea may be the best. Skill Hunter now works differently: You gain a point in Skill Hunter *when you capture an elite skill*. The game would record what skills you captured and what skills you unlocked. Unlocked skills wont count for your skill hunter title, ONLY captured ones. You can capture unlocked skills of course, for title purposes.

Any of those work.

Suggestions that attempt to fix problems or things in the game that are broken like skills or pvp modes.

I made 10k with my Assassin by Kaineng Center. I basically got all my money in newbie-land. I just did quests. I would argue that getting the skill points is harder than getting the money.

Besides...from my perspective, the game gives you enough to have fun.

If you really want to experiment with builds and skills, you'd really have to invest your money on the character. And i dont think anyone playing normally cares about that.

lyra from page 6 shows how the basis of Mythic's arguement, the basis being that "Skill > Time spent" should be favored, can also be used to create an opposite argument that is just as valid.

The ideas that i really care about are from page 3.

I want access.

I wanted access in 2005 before factions. :/


You want an arguement that doesnt revolve around what I want or dont want?


Anet wants money.

PvP packs are income

PvE players have no reason to buy PvP packs.

This would give them a reason.

Anet would make more money

The game would have more revenue

The additional revenue could be budgetted to add more stuff to the game.


There.

Lets make the game better and get access to stuff we unlock.




How about --

Time spent.

Time spent is more valuable in the PvE world than the PvP world. Why does the pvp player get the short end of the stick ? I play for an hour.

RA - I get 3 unlocks for my account. (or one elite)

PvE - i get a couple unlocks through grinding out money or skill points, or I go cap an elite. (sometimes, I can cap 2 depending on the area and my secondary) I get them for my character, but I also get them for pvp.

Why do I get rewarded MORE for time spent in pve than I do for time spent in pvp?

I took out your spaces for compression's sake.

H'mmn. While this argument is sound, the question that comes to mind is, why would more money in the short term be more important than keeping the game balanced in the long run?

And also, how does "more stuff" and "having access to unlocked skills with a new pve character" neccessarily make the game better?


Interesting perspective. I'll have to agree, but only with those specific examples and only relating to skill acquisition.

However your example lays out 2 different experiences.

RA - What is the purpose of random arena? While some people do use RA to build up Balthazar Points to unlock skills, for some people, it is faster than PvE.

Take for example, say I have a monk. This monk only has up to Lion's Arch. I need to unlock Rebirth for my account.

Whats the fastest way? Theres several ways to get rebirth. I can do PvE quests in Maguuma jungle. I can get it from ember light. Or i can do PvP and unlock it through that. For me, i'd jump into RA, or AB and have fun. And eventually get the skill I want.

Your PvE example seems to say that getting skills is ONLY a grind. My guild does skill cap outings, where we take a full group and go skill capping/chest farming/kill everything in sight. Its fun, because we joke around and kill stuff and eventually get the skill and go "Who's got the next skill?"

I guess my comment on this is.

Your mileage may vary.

You mean. unbalanced like a lvl 3 koss using eviscerate is unbalanced?

How does Character progressions = Character acquisition. Are you stronger because you own 1000 skills and I own 100?




I wasnt comparing the speed. I was comparing general time spent.

I spend time in PvP doing whatever. I get rewards that only count for my account.

I spend time in PvE doing whatever. I get rewards both for pve and for pvp.



Why? Why do I get more for playing pve? Shouldn't I get something from PvP that I can bring to PvE besides stupid titles or gold/silver trim?

Access to unlocked skill is precisly a mechanic that would give ppl a REASON to go RA.

Dont you think more players would PvP if the skill unlocks they earned counted towards their PvE characters?

Wouldnt it make the transition between PvE and PvP smoother?

Huh, all the PVE unlocks are already yours for PVP, no waiting.

So if i want a necro with Aura of the lich, Cultist fervor, and jagged bones builds, it has to be either pvp, (about 1.5 minutes) or I have to get my necro to the final missions in all 3 campaigns...(weeks if I work nonstop). To me it doesnt sound like pvp is getting the short end of the stick. However I have been wrong before.

I believe ANet is intelligent enough to make this viable, even with that "issue". Heck, they could simply do it so you only have access to all skills after ascending/beating the final mission of a campaign. See, I just made a good solution to that problem, and I don't even get paid to do it like ANet employees.

_Zexion

You also failed to grasp what I meant.



If you unlock a skill with faction (Thats PvP time spent) you get it unlocked for your account (thats just for pvp)

If you unlock a skill by buying it (thats pve time spent) you get it unlocked for your account (thats just for pvp) but you ALSO get it for PvE.


Why is it so one way?

Why does the time spent in pve give me 2 things. And the time spent in pvp only 1.

Giving pve characters access to unlocked skills (at any stage, if your really so afraid that SS in the starter island is any worse than Koss having evis push it till ascention) gives another layer to DOING PvP.

How many gwo forumites (and forumites here for that matter) simply refuse to pvp.

What if they could take their character to RA? and RA a bit for a few unlocks. I bet they would.

Hell I bet they would be more prone to doing HA if they got rewards taht were visable on their characters.

Doing this would work FOR both sides.

PvP players would get more rewards in PvE

PvE players would get more rewards in PvP.

Everyone wins...










You do play Guild Wars right?

New chapter releases - Old players move their LVL 20 CHARACTERS OVER

and....

START ON THE STARTER ISLAND.

yep.

lvl 20's
soloing the entirety of the starter islands for both chapter 2 and 3.... yeah... giving lvl 1 characters elites is REALLY gonna IMBA pve....


:/

Ive already shown my position towards Heros having access to unlocked skills as unbalanced and a "gimme" of Anet, coddling its players and appeasing the community with an overpowered game element.

How does your question even relate to the question i asked?

You were comparing speeds. I was comparing general time spent.

One could argue that PvPers don't care about PvE at all....

A PvEr would not PvP if they aren't a PvP type person. Some people just can't PvP.

If you could use PvP Balthazar points to buy skills for a character in PvE that would be interesting though.


But really heres your problem:

First: Unlocking with faction is an ammended concept.

It allows people who HATE PvE to just PvP and unlock stuff the way they liked to play, which is only through pvp. This creates a "mini-world" of PvP, completely outside of PvE. Whatever unlocks you gain through this mini-world only apply in this mini-world because the people who wanted this concept didn't care for PvE at all.

So.

You are arguing, that when you are PvEing, you gain more, than the PvPers who spend the same amount of time. Because whatever unlocks you gain apply to PvP also.

I propose. That PvE players have this so called "advantage" because gaining things in PvE takes not only money, skill points, but also the ability to GET to that location.

Example:

Start a new account with prophecies.
Create 2 warriors.

Warrior 1 is a PvP warrior and uses PvP template to play in RA.
Warrior 2 will play in PvE.

How much time spent and effort is required for both to gain the elite skill Eviscerate?

PvP can gain Eviscerate faster and has access to all unlocked skills. But the price is that it can only be used in PvP.

PvE can use Eviscerate in PvP and PvE. But the price is that it is only usable for that character.

For people saying it will make early PvE too easy... even though heroes prove this wrong, here's another thing to ponder: Is it difficult- at ALL- currently? The starter areas are made to introduce players to the game. They are very easy. PvE wont be made unbalanced because some players have a SLIGHT advantage in noob areas, and when you get to high level areas, you have the same advantage as everybody else. This logic is like saying "PvE characters shouldnt have account-based Xunlai agents". Isn't it true? People who play PvE more "unlock" more gold, which give the new character armor, weapons, and more with ease! Why should we have account based Xunlai agents? Simple. Because you earned the gold and you should be able to use it as you see fit.

Why should we have account based skills? Simple. Because you earned the skills and you should be able to use them as you see fit.

Ever wonder why.. Maybe its all that "time" that HAS to be spent to acomplish anything..... :/

PvP players would PvE more often with this.
And you can disagree all you want, but more PvE players would go and do PvP things if they had a direct reward.

Why would somene with 9 pve characters care about faction? They wouldnt.... at all.. it would serve them NO USE whatsoever. But if they could unlock skills and use them on their PvE's I bet they would rethink their stance....

Everyone CAN PvP. Everyone doesnt want to, since there is no immediate reward. Actually. For a PvE character, there is NO reward in PvP beyond titles. Which are just as useless in PvP as they are in PvE.

Yeah. I assume they dont PvP because there is no reward. Honestly. Im the kinda guy who loves the challange pvp presents. Beating up on non-thinking AI and then relishing in the fact that I "owned it up" is childish to me... Id rather out think a human mind than an AI script anyday. But hey thats me.. I pve for character customization and pvp for challange.

[quote]
But really heres your problem:



First: Unlocking with faction is an ammended concept.

It allows people who HATE PvE to just PvP and unlock stuff the way they liked to play, which is only through pvp. This creates a "mini-world" of PvP, completely outside of PvE. Whatever unlocks you gain through this mini-world only apply in this mini-world because the people who wanted this concept didn't care for PvE at all.
[quote]

Unlocking - in since release.

Faction - added after the fact.

Yep your right....

Faction is a flawed concept your right. WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO UNLOCK ANYTHING FOR PVE OR PVP. YOU SHOULD BE GIVEN THE SKILLS AT THE START. It would be no more imbalancing than me bringing my evis warrior to elona and monkey stomping the first island.... Anet seems ok with that, hell thats the way they designed it right? New land. New low level area. JUST PUT ALL THE HIGH LEVELS HERE FIRST AND MAKE THEM RUN AROUND AND MONKEY STOMP EVERYTHING.... \O/

Chapter 2 atleast dropped you off in KC? and let you run around with lvl 20's. Chapter 3 drops you off on the starter island ffs....
:/

So much for game balance 'eh.....





Get somewhere? R U SRS?

Chapter 1 - There are HOW MANY run trails?

There have been players at less than level 10 running around ascalons pvp arena with EVISCERATE. :/

Getting somewhere in pve is just a matter of time Maybe its skill for some....... but given enough time you can conquer all of pve. So no. I dont think that GETTING SOMEWHERE should determine anything in regards to skill acquisition.

Sorry but I like to step out of the box as much as possible, and "getting" to X to acquire Y is so old its dead. FEDEX quests are just about as bad imo....

Take this to them and get that. <- repeat 100x and you have pve.




Can you give me one reason why this would break the game?

One instance where having access to skills you have already unlocked is going to cause mass imbalances across the board?

Are players going to leave in droves because its now EASIER to play? Will they leave by having a choice in how they want to acquire that skill?

Most leave when it gets harder, so I highly doubt ANYONE would leave if this was implemented...

I PvE more than PvP.

But I have NO USE for faction, as I pvp with my PvE characters.

What about players like me? Who do both, We get screwed thats what.





Character acquisition != Character Progression in this game.

Meaning. What we acquire does not make us stronger. We stay the same "strength" we acquire more choices.

Personally, I like to have all my choices available at the start.

Best point yet.

Whoa, just joking around, no offense meant.

You and I went the obligatory 3 rounds debating essentially the same topics weeks ago, so I think I am just going to get a virtual bowl of popcorn and watch this one.

There has been one appeal by Nexus Icon that everyone should go back and reread. It is good stuff.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

So what you're really saying is that a character that is one day old should be equal to a character that is one year old? That a character thats just been made should be equal to one thats got like 2 million xp (and that's not hard to get if you've been playing for a year)? So I ask again, what will you do in pve once you're running around with all these max characters? It'd be like stomping the starter island, except extended for the entire campaign.

Someone mentioned he likes playing the desert missions over and over with different builds. Thats good, and its nice that you're helping people through, but are you saying that you can just play that one character over and over again for a year, with no reward for that character? That you haven't wanted to make a new character and see him/her grow as you play? That instead you just want to jump right to the end, a fully formed character? Sure that's good for you, but how does this encourage people to come back to pve in the long term?

There are some in the pro argument that say that my con arguments don't say anything, yet in their reply's they don't address a single issue I've asked about. Like what about the current system is so grind that you can't possibly do it anymore?

Is it that you don't have enough skill points? I think that with mission and quest rewards a casual player has more than enough skill points to play with. Do you agree or disagree? And why?

Is it that it costs too much plat? If you actually just play through normally, a casual player with 7 henchies/4 heroes+4 henchies can easily make 3 plat an hour. Not farming. Just travelling on foot between zones, or playing through the campaign. I think that being able to get 3 skills an hour is reasonable for casual play. Do you agree or disagree? And why?

Is it because you can't get it at the first skill trainer you run into right after creating your character? Well, I don't think you should be able to, but you can right now under the current system. He's called priest of Balthazar. Unlocks skills so they are available at all trainers so you don't have to get to ember light camp. I don't think this is an issue. Do you agree or disagree? And why?

I also ask that if this is ever implemented, what's to say that within the week there won't be a post saying "I've unlocked all the armour insignias and runes, and I want to experiment with different builds requiring different armour setups. I should have all insignias and runes unlocked without having to buy/find them for my new character". How would this argument be any less legitimate then what's being asked here? And how would this not hurt pve in the long run?

So I'm asking the pro camp, why are my points wrong? Enlighten me. Persuade me that this is a well thought out idea and that you have considered long term consequences for pve. Just because something is good for an individual doesn't mean its good for the community. Tell me why this is good for the game in the long term. Actually discuss why this needs to be done, rather then just saying its too much effort to put into the game. Do that, and I won't just think this is a 'I want something for nothing' combined with a 'But I want it now' idea. Go on, turn me to the darkside.

Well the problem was this:

Anet implemented a UAX for pvp in the beginning, but took it away...

Forcing PvP players to PvE, even though they didn't want to.

Even if gaining UAX were just the actual main storyline, it would hassle PvPers, since they had no alternative methods to UAX, and PvP is the only part of the game they like.

Even if gaining UAX took very little time, it would still be a pain if its something you despise.

I've been an advocate of PvPers playing more PvE and PvErs playing more PvP.

But...
No amount of incentive will get a PvPer who hates PvE to play PvE.
No amount of incentive will get a PvEr who hates PvP to play PvP.

This isn't an assumption. This is from posts that people have put in here, when i post my support for PvP affecting PvE (You know...the World At War system....Favor....).

Some bad assumptions there.

Dont presume to know why people play the way they like to play.

And dont base your arguments on those assumptions.

some people would pay real ebay money for those titles. Just as some people would pay real money for obsidian armor. Some people could care less.

Usefulness of titles is irrelevant to the argument at hand.

I thought we got past the silly "give me everything on a silver platter" nonesense?

Stop strawman-ing. It's really annoying and forces me to repeat things i've already mentioned.

The imbalance pointed out is not against the PvE monsters.

The imbalance is against players who have not unlocked skills.

Irrelevant. Stick to the topic.

Run trails are not part of the main storyline and is outside of normal character development.
Twinkers are not how "casual players" play and is outside normal character development.

I agree.

Therefore:

Yup. I really don't see why you'd wanna repeat it if it was so boring. .-.

You want me to repeat myself again?

*sigh*

I personally find this argument so annoying, since it is baseless, like most of the arguments here.

Even if you had all the skills. Its still the same boring game.

I thought i went through this point already....

Attribute points.

A lvl 3 koss using eviscerate != a lvl 20 koss using eviscerate

The lvl 3 doesnt have enough attribute points to be on par with the level 20. He is hindered by level, but not by skill selection.

Also... do you mean to indicate that DoA is easy peasy because you have all the skills? Doesnt that area require player skill?

The skills you have acquired do not really increase your ability as a player, just the flexibility you have as a player. Your personal skill will still be the #1 factor in finishing any given area in the game.

You make it sound like the only thing to do in game is acquire skills.

When thats not all there is by a long shot.

Theres;

Armor
Weapons
Off hands
Items (runes etc)
To a lesser degree Titles. (personally they do not mean much to me, but some players enjoy getting them)


Hell you could even include dye here, as some players enjoy dyeing their weapons and armor and such.


(as for running the desert over and over, meh.. its just what they enjoy doing, I would not rerun the same area like that over and over, id switch it up)


As for coming back for the long term.....

I dunno.. you seem to indicate that only skill acquisition keeps you playing.. What do you do besides acquire skills, that you would not be able to do if you had every single skill?

Surely you do not JUST acquire skills....

Oh, and can someone tell me why this is in the Riverside rather than Sardilac?

Hey nytestalker....stop contradicting the OP.

maybe thats out of context...but...

Nobody here has yet to say anything convincing.

You are just arguing in circles and keep repeating the same things and using contradictory arguments for the SAME position.

Which indicates to me that there really is no solid argument if you can use it to support both positions.

Me and mythics already know we want the same thing... Same thread on TGH I have made my thoughts perfectly clear both here and there.



Also...

Mythics enjoys the skills system. That is to say, he finds the ways the skills work together fun.

He does not enjoy buying every skill in the game 8x or more.

Nor do I..

Lets say there are 1000 skills in the game (easy round number)

There are 10 professions.


For one characters, thats... 10,000 Gold PLUS skill points. (to get all skills on him)

For 10 characters, thats. 100,000 Gold plus Skill points. (getting all skills)

:/ no thats NOT grind....


You could argue that you didnt NEED every single skill and you would of course be right. But even needing 500 skills per character, your still talking about....

5,000 gold and skill points. per character.

50,000 gold and skill points for your whole account. (assuming 10 char slots, i like round numbers, i know most ppl have either 8 or 9 slots so the totals will of course be slightly less this is again just an example)

True, a lvl 3 koss != a lvl 20 koss with 200 attrib points. But give someone whos' played through before (and I'm assuming you have at least one character done if you want their unlocks) all unlocked skills and how long do you think it'll take to get from lvl1 to lvl20 and 200 attrib points? A day. If you got factions you could probably do that easily in under six hours. Sure this is cool, but after the thrill wears off, will this keep you playing pve for 6 months? I think this would be bad for pve. Do you agree or disagree? And why?

And yes, the game is not just about getting skills. But tell me, if you can get all skills like this, why play on much longer after you reach lvl20. After all, after lvl20, what's the only thing you get? Skill points to get more skills. So again, do this and you end up with a one day old character being the same as a one year old character. I think this is bad for the game, in that it discourages long term play for casual players. After all, your character is as developed as it will ever get and all that's left to do is get the bling. After one day. Do you agree or disagree? And why?

And if you read a few posts up you'll find that I've already asked why if this is done for skills, why you are not going to get people asking for the same thing for everything you currently unlock (runes, insignias, inscriptions, mods).

A character wont be equal to one that's a year old. Less attribute points, less armor, less weapons. And it's not like Johnny Noob buys the game, makes a character, and BAM, he's equal to YOUR year old character. He wont have the skills or anything yet. Your argument is FULL of ignorance... you say that the game wont be fun when you stomp around with all skills... um, hello? Do you even PLAY Guild Wars? I guess I didn't get the memo that anet is allowing us to equip all of our skills in explorable areas. Wait? There was no memo? We can still have 8 at a time?

What is the difference between somebody who is running a minion master build who ONLY has those 8 skills unlocked and somebody who is running a minion master build who has ALL the skills unlocked? None! If it's the same build, you have NO advantage! Seriously, what were you thinking when you made that post?

No reward? The reward is having fun! The fact is, he EARNED his reward and now he is having fun USING the reward! Your character can still grow, with new armor, weapons, and everything like that! It seems that you have NO grasp of Guild Wars gameplay mechanics at all. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's true. I mean, sheesh, you consider a character fully formed because he has all skills unlocked? You must not be very good at this game, I suggest you consider playing it more before trying to act as if you have knowledge on this issue.

The topic creator did NOT make a suggestion. This is a discussion. Discussion=Riverside.

I think Rakeman makes a *great* point. Although, the one thing you can say in defense of the Xunlai goody box is that really powerful weapons don't do low leveled characters much good.

As for Kazjun's touching curiosity. First of all, I don't think that the system is horrible - it is true that just playing around, and selling everything to the merchants or NPCs, you can get a decent amount of money together. But if I make say, 3-5k in a play session, and then I go buy a couple of skills, I've spent half of my earnings. I try to save at least 1/3 of whatever I take in, so that eventually I have more flexibility than I do now, so basically if I buy a couple of skills that's all I'm going to buy period.

As far as that goes - fine. But it's really, really a bummer to spend all the money you have to spend on a skill that you've already spent all the money you have to spend on...more than once! And I have multiple characters, so they all sort of wait in a queue - one will get a couple of skills and it will be weeks later before that same character gets bumped back up to the top of the queue. In Factions and Nightfall, I find skill acquisition to be a very slow and painful process.

And it's not like I'm going hog-wild on anything else, either - I use weapons I get from drops, and basic max armor. I think it would be ridiculous to go broke in order to trick out a character with fancy duds when she's a total gimp skill-wise.

Well, 500 skills for every character seems a bit high but I'll work with it. As for needing 50plat for TEN characters to get all the skills you need? Nightfall practically hands you 20k per character for free, if you just play the game. So the proceeds from 3 characters will pay for that, with tons left over. And even 50k for one character? Have you looked around? Now many of you are running around with 15k armour. That's 75k just for vanity. And plenty have this on more than one character. Hardly means this is so totally unreachable. Or is it that you're saving the cash for your 15k? If that's the case you can hardly complain about not having enough money.

Getting 5000 skill points per character is tougher I'd agree. Though, play through prophecies and you can get almost all you main primary and secondary skills for free. Leaves you to get the leftovers with all the skill points you've gotten. And nightfall gives plenty of skills for free at hero trainers. If you have all campaigns that leaves you only the factions skills to get. Though if you got factions only, then I guess it would be tough. But then again, with factions only you would only have to get skills for 8 profs and you'd only be able to get faction and core skills only, which would cut the skill points you need by 2/3's.

Wrong. Completely wrong. Do you want to know what's left? Playing.

Why do you earn these things? To make your character- and thus performance- better. This is what you're saying:

"If we get all the things we need to play, what's the point of playing?"

Maybe some people play games solely for the purpose of building a bigger e-peen, but some people (read: most) play for FUN. I'd love being able to experiment with all sorts of builds and the CONSTANTLY changing metagame, seeing what combos work, what doesn't, getting that awesome looking weapon skin, etc. Sure, my character isn't developing... but I am. I am getting better at the game. I am learning. I am developing. See, this is a skill based game.

Did you know people sell UAX accounts with rank 10+ on ebay and stuff which noobs buy to get teams? And do you know that they stick out like a sore thumb on rank 10+ teams? That's because Guild Wars is about how good the player is primarily, not who has been playing longer. Guild Wars is a game and should be played for fun, not to increase the size of your e-peen.

I really was gonna stop posting for a bit and see if anyone else wanted to share an opinion but I have to address 2 really big fundamental flaws you seem to have.


1 - Anet claimed that a day 1 character WOULD be just as viable as a 1 year character.. Its that whole skill over time argument....



2 - Casual players - I am one. Hi. I get roughly an hour-ish to play guild wars at the end of my day. Typically this is reduced as I procrastinate about my household chores till the end of the day...

I've played casually for two years.

Guess what.

If tomorrow I woke up and had every single skill on every single character... I would still play... :/

I don't play to acquire things... I find something I wanna "work towards" and go do that.

For instance, my last "work towards" was primeval armor for my necro.

I just finished that though.. And am looking for my next "work towards" (which incidentally is probably going to be getting my necro to the end of chapter 2..)

If there ever came a time that my next "work towards" was skill acquisition. I can safely say I would quit Guild Wars all together and go back to playing First Person Shooters...

You are crazy! How much gold do you need to unlock skills for all professions for every your character? Think before post plz...