Access to Unlocked Skills in PvE

At least you can still find some interest in playing. The game never lets you truly get involved in the story and since realism is shot down to improve the quality of the game (which I am in support of), the immersion is never anywhere near good enough to me. Since I can't really enjoy the story, quests, or missions.. I enjoy changing my build around on a regular basis. I like to perfect it per mission or quest, try new things all the time.

Without the skill system being at least somewhat forgiving, I have no interest in the game. The skill system in itself though for PvP, has been enough to convince me to buy all three chapters though. If PvE was the same, I'd probably be playing it right now instead of griping more.

You know I'd forgotton about skill points - I don't think I've thought about them since the early days of Prophecies. It seems that they should be the wall you hit, that stops you from immediately aquiring everything, but in reality, I suspect most casual players run out of cash long before skill points. I know I do.

Koss on L2 with all skills and elites is hardly overpowered ...

Seriously, some of you are still stuck on the mindset that there's "high level" skills in GW. This isnt an MMO where you only get certain "uber" skills the higher you level. The only thing similar to this in GW to this are elites.

It's not overpowered at all to have access to any skill at the beginning. My level 2 warrior still can't do much damage with ANY skill.

While i understand your motivation behind your suggestion (and the many others who post this idea over and over) and sympathize completely (17 character slots ftl X_X), i will have to continue to disagree on allowing access to the unlocked skills simply because it counterpoints the game's basic design.

Just because the community thinks its a good idea does not mean its a good idea. Just because you want it, doesn't mean you should get it. Theres a point where pleasing the community must not take precedence over a functioning game design.

Theres a lot of ideas that will please a large population of the community but should not or cannot be implemented simply because it would break the design of the game (technically, balance-wise, pace-wise, story-wise etc).

HOWEVER!!!!11ONE This does not mean we cannot come to terms to a compromise of alternate ways to give that same basic function without completely destroying the only sort of character development the game has (which as you pointed out is shallow and pointless enough..but thats just me being cynical).

No, youve got my pov backwards. In my perspective anything required to continue the game is NOT a grind.

My warrior in PvE uses the elite skill Charge! Her skillset all comes from early in the game: Dismember, Axe rake, Executioner, Watch Yourself! Healsig, Go For the Eyes! res, All very very boring basic skills you earn early on, but effective nonetheless. These things did not require me to grind, since Charge! is effectively along the way of the Primary Quest in perdition.

Heck...my ranger uses all basic skills, Barrage is on a primary mission (markis), my necro uses Reaper's Mark (my favorite necro elite ATM) which she got doing that primary quest at Champion's Dawn (shes from Prophecies).

Geeze....now that i look at it...my builds are pretty boring ._.

Anyway...Would you not agree, that a casual player can make it through the end of the game without really needing a huge pool of skills? Boring basic skills you earn early on can take you to the end of the game.

However i will agree that those various grinds (getting tons of skills, getting tons of elites, getting 15k armors, getting drunk, cartographer, defender, rank, champion, gladiator, treasure hunter) while not really required, are really what makes the game fun (or...not fun).

So what can we do about it? Ive seen various ideas surface on skill acquisition.

-skill trainers accepting quest rewards like Battle Commendations, Luxon Totems, etc.
-more hero points
-return of skill quests
-Discount on unlocked skills This is probably what i would choose.
-No skill point requirement for unlocked skills This is a good idea too.
-Skill trainers in the wild that teach you skills if you beat them
-buying unlocked skills in bulk

For me, getting things faster/alternate methods/multiple methods is ok in PvE. getting things instantly is not.

Are you sure that it is your warrior?

<I kid>

Honestly, I found that very low level characters with access to elites really are overpowered early in the game.

When I first got my heroes, I was surprised that Dunkoro had access to Mark of Protection. My level 10 ranger was able to take on three level 20 baddies with just me and Dunk...thanks to that spell.

That simply isn't right in the true concept of a PvE game.

There was a game on SNES that was really awesome, fun to play, etc etc. The problem with it was that from one area to the next, mobs increased by almost doubling their level. That caused a level treadmill between every area. Just because it's required to level almost constantly, doesn't mean that it isn't a grind.
I would agree, but...
You've got 99% of what I'm saying to a T I think, the only thing you really seem to be lacking is that it's not a grind your first time through the game with that class. It's rather enjoyable even to find the skills, trainers, quests, etc. I don't mind, well..not that much at least, waiting till moments before I beat the game to get X skill.

However, the next time I play, having to re-acquire those skills becomes a grind. Taking out that process, in no way that I can tell, would cause any issues outside of arbitrary fixable ones that are semi-issues already.

You've stated very well that you understand my point of view, but I really don't seem to understand yours. How could instant access to skills you've already unlocked break the game? I'd get access to them eventually anyway, but due to the time and work (not fun at all), why would I bother? It's much easier for me to just not play again and get a different game.
If it was a flat 50g a piece or something that trivial, sure. There could even be a specific NPC to teach you what other character's you've had has taught him. Kinda like a xu agent, but for skills vs inventory.
Skill points were only an issue in Chapter 1, 2 and 3 is gold. Especially when you look at the number of skills possible to buy in combination with the cumulative cost.
Could you describe this suggestion a little more?

I understand the statement, but not the logic since there's not much explanation there :P

The only reason I can think of that would make A.Net not want to do this would be their sale of character slots. I consider that a poor reason from a gamer's aspect, but not from a business aspect.

Also, what's your pov on unlocked access after ascending?

<-Because you are used to level being an important factor within a PvE game.
->Skills ARE balanced based on the character's being level 20.
<-If you could take on 3 level 20's at level 10, how many could you take on at level 20? Doesn't that just say that the mob AI is poor and untalented?

Sounds to me like those 'baddies', especially at level 20, suck and should probably be buffed. That's just another aspect of the PvE that I dislike, it's all about quantity of monsters and their base damage/health instead of how good their bar's are.

Well I have to disagree...I have done everything in the game with my Necro...wanted to switch ot a Monk and get a ranger going so I could try trapping, or other things...being able to buy a skill for my Monk in LA that my Necro unlocked in Ember light camp is hughe for me. I am already an experience player...why should I have to drag my monk from NF althe way to THK jsut to buy a skill? I do think Elites need to be capped by each character tho...otherwise it makes the game too easy

oh i love those games sometimes...sometimes...ya...but that example doesnt apply to GW.

GW's main story quest has very little grind. (Agree or disagree please)

Start to finish, even if you do just primary quests, pickup all your drops and sell them, youll be able to get max armor easily, acquire adequate skills, reach lvl 20, and beat the game.

I did a little self imposed challenge. I played my Sin up to lvl 20 without buying storage. So i had to sell everything. By the time i reached Kaineng, i had about 9k. More than enough for armor, since i liked basic looking armor anyway. Im still using my pre-order daggers and skills from Shing Jea area.

Ok...well i wont continue without some clarification.

Are we talking about beating the game once with one class...then starting a new character of the same class? or just some other class, and just wanting access to those skills via secondary?

Maybe its just the designer in me. I don't like it when something is made for a certain purpose, and someone comes along and decides they want to use it for something contrary to its purpose. Its a bit of a bastardization and irks me.

How could instant access to skills you've already unlocked break the game?

It wouldn't. If this was PvP.

What is the purpose of PvP? To compete vs other players
How does unlocked skills/mods/runes work for this purpose? The no grind concept of GW forces it to create a PvP environment where everyone has access to the same things to compete and no one has any mechanical advantage with superior skills/weapons. The unlocked pool is your depository of tools to compete.

What is the pupose of PvE? To adventure through story mode in a linear fashion.
How does unlocked skills/mods/runes work for this purpose? it doesnt...unlocked anything doesn't benefit PvE at all (with the exceptions).

Lets look at this in a more historical sense

The 8 skills are supposed to represent 8 rings, 1 worn on each finger.
Each skill is actually a physical item in the game.

so.

Do you think that it would make sense to create a brand new char with a whole set of physical items?

In that sense why cant it be that newly made characters instantly have all unlocked mods and runes?

Do you see how game breaking that is? Its simply too good to exist. It removes what little challenge and purpose there is in PvE.

As I said before, PVE's failures has nothing to do with the skill system itself but with PVE itself. PVE is basically a setup of monsters who act like cannonfodder that present no challenge and you go through swarm after swarm of them. If it takes a dozen level 28 monsters just to present a "challenge" to the average team of 8 level 20 players then there's something wrong.

Does preventing people access to unlocked skills really make any difference in the current PVE "challenge?" If someone who is already very familiar with the game starts a new character or changes his secondary, do you honestly believe that somehow denying access to unlocked skills will make it more challenging and fun? It's just unnecessary the same way attribute refund points were. The only thing holding us back are people's narrow view of how "RPG" should be. That's not meant as an insult but there's no other way to put it.

As for not being fair to newbies, I actually think it's a good thing that they start out with limited selection of skills. It can be overwhelming to have that many skills at once. Give them the most simple ones to start and learn and let them unlock the way we once did. It worked fine for us. Dont worry so much about newbies. They dont need us to hold their hands. The rest of us having access to unlocked skills wont affect them.

Ok question then.

If Guild Wars did not have a seperate PvP section, and the unlocked items merely kept track of all the things youve seen with all your characters (kind of like a checklist basically of things to unlock in the game, basically another title) and had zero merit to the game other than being a compiled list, would such a suggestion exist?

These questions about skill unlocking/pre unlocked made me really wonder about GW2.

These things I would assume to be true:

1. There is no Balthazaar Faction in GW2, since there is no need for it as everything is previously unlocked.
2. There is a different form of profit rewarded for PvP, since there is no PvE and PvP division of characters anymore. (This was explained in one of the interviews floating around)
3. The sidekick system allows for people of higher levels to be companioned as a lower level ally with the same statistics.

So how does this work in "world pvp" and gvg?

Well since all skills are unlocked, and levels must have a statistical cap somewhere along the lines, if anyone is familiar with DotA(Defence of the Ancients) I would assume GvG to follow more closely to this. As much as I don't like it I have this chill down my spine. It makes more then enough sense on too many levels, this would compensate for having any skills you wanted unlocked as well as the level difference/debate of unclarity.

World PvP I find a huge alliance battle that never ends, wreckless like random arena and as fast as heroes ascent.

I think the environment would have huge huge impact on how the skill unlocking works, imagine otherwise systems that you don't need anything to unlock yet you already can do everything for PvP.

I hope this idea changes, and unlocking becomes mandatory in my opinion it does not determine skill, but it shows determination to be competitive.

Well, if there were no PVP I would have stopped playing a long time ago. But let's put that aside.

If there were only GW PVE and I didnt care for PVP, I still would have an issue with this. I still wouldnt start new characters that I already have the majority of skills for. I still wouldnt find re-buying skills any more fun. I still find the lack of flexibility in making builds one of the reasons PVE is stagnant.

So yes, the issues remain even if there were no PVP section.

Agreed, completely.

I'll give a couple quick examples:
1. You made it a good way through the game with a Ele/Mes. You think to go Mes/Ele instead, but are left to re-acquire all the same skills. Now, you could have beaten the game or just made it about half-way.. either way, your second time through will be very boring.

2. You made it a good way through the game or even beat it, using a Ele/Mes. You make a new character and enjoy playing this new class. You ascend, change to a secondary of Ele or Mes, but have to go back through the whole game doing the few class specific quests to reacquire skills or you grind for gold/skill points.

Does that help any?

It's not supposed to be completely linear. Hint: Map Travel.
Items aren't 'uber/leet' to prevent players from choosing a party member soley based on their time invested in the game. Why shouldn't skills be the same way?

Character A passed on the 'rings' to Character B. Character generation would leave you with a newborn baby if it was going for realism. Realism in a fantasy video game is like realism in a fantasy movie, don't analyze it or it'll ruin it for you (and others in this case).

They could.

The little challenge and purpose in PvE is already little. This suggestion would, as The Ernada already stated, only show the problem more. Scraping the dirt off of a really ugly lamp didn't make it uglier, it just revealed just how ugly it truly is. Wether it's ugly or not is up to the individual looking at it of course, but I agree that PvE is one ugly lamp regardless. That's why my wanting to scrape the dirt off of it could in the end be a good thing.

A.Net already knows how PvE offers masses of mobs without that great of AI. It's all about # of mobs, damage of mobs, and health of mobs.. not their actual ability to oppose you. Hint: Hard Mode.

Having an elite in Pre-searing for example shouldn't actually be overpowered except that the balancing is based on the player being a level 20. It's just the fact that mobs in pre-searing don't have res, enchant removal, interupts, mass hexes, or even full skill bars. It's all about quantity, damage, and health.

My Koss with Starbust kills everything outside Kamadan by himself.

Can you imagine making an E/D with all unlocked skills? I could solo the whole entire starter island without breaking a sweat.

To be honest I am all for skills unlocked PER character. I just think it makes more sense flavor wise more then anything else.

My warrior gets some insane attack skills at the end of the game, my monk I decide to make it have an axe for no reason... I mow through the game.

The story in PvE accords for your character, in PvP it accords for your account. Your rewards per character in PvE should be unique to that characters accomplishments. It just doesn't make sense as to why being able to have the entire game for you done in one run works out to having anything you want. If this logic proceeded I guess all my characters get KoaBD, FoW armor, Legendary Survivor, and every single elite unlocked and all skills unlocked so whenever I make a new character I don't even have to play anymore in PvE. It's just all done for me. There is a reason PvP characters don't enter the PvE world.

Could you imagine if you had the ability to make a E/D with all unlocked skills thinking you could solo the whole entire starter island, but then found out that the mobs were actually semi-intelligent and put hexes and conditions on you, interupted you from time to time, and even removed all your uber elite enchants?

Wow, then you might need an interupting mes of your own, or perhaps a monk to heal/remove hexes/conditions. :O Then you might not have enough damage since they all of a sudden got smart on you (and carried a monk with them more often than not), so you have your friend who's an Ele join you too.

Wait, then the PvE would have been improved alongside access to unlocked skills and who would want PvE to be non-soloable? .....

Mythics - the point you are missing is that, even if you improved the AI, the natural progression of a PvE game is to make the creatures more difficult as you progress in the game. You see it in all three chapters that have been released.

Giving your characters access very early access to every skill imbalances that progression. It follows naturally that as the creatures get tougher, your character has more ability to adapt and conquer that new challenge.

That's not logic. It's warping an analogy to fit your argument...which is why I hate analogies. Superficial titles and "elite" armor are NOT skills. They are superficial and not used in gameplay (FOW skin not armor itself)

And you missed the point completely. Unlocking does not mean "it's all done for you" It's just the opposite. We'd like to do the campaign or try with the same character but with a different seconday AGAIN. But this rebuying skills garbage deters us from doing so. So dont even try to pass it off as lazyness.

Then i would just switch to E/Rt or whatever combination I need.

Who would want PvE to be unchallenging? Its easy enough as is with what you are given.
Wait, if they improve the AI again, then we will get the "its too hard" posts. Where will the true beginners to the game get their chance to learn the aspects of chaining skills and the synergies of certain class combinations?

Ill just stay out of this one for now. This theory has been shot down so many times its just rediculous that it keeps coming up. PvE is a grind and will continue to be a grind for those that want something out of it. For those that want everything handed to them on a platter, thats just too bad. Why even bother playing this game.

Gah. Everytime there's a suggestion to improve something some retard will always spout out something like "you want everything handed to you on a silver platter" It's not even an argument anymore. It's just something idiots spout when they have no points to offer.

^ ^ the point was PvE is a grind, but you must of missed that when you cut the quote. I hate when idiots take just parts out of context.

I take pride in my character development. Some characters I devote more time and plat on. Other characters dont get that treatment. But you are given the option of how to develop your characters with what skills you choose.

By giving all unlocked skills, theres less development of you characters. Hell, I want all 10 of my toons to have all skills unlocked. But there has to be a price to pay for that. Thats the grind.

I agree with all the /notsigned crowd. Botters and ebay gold farmers are a valuable resource in this game to casual gamers(though this game was marketed as a game for the casual gamers). Even more with mechanics of buying the same skills 2, 3, or more times across different characters.

Down with Mythics' crying and up with ebay gold buying!

I think these are all great suggestions. Except for the part about skill point requirements - I'm with whoever else on this thread who pointed out that skill points are not the limiting factor. I never have more plat to spend on skills than I have points.

I wonder why they got rid of skill quests in Factions and Nightfall? Does this really make sense to anyone?

Why on earth do you think that a skill at the end of the game is more powerful than all the others? You understand the whole balance concept, right?

You think skill acquisition is the only point of playing GW? I feel very sorry for you Mr. Pokemon player.

Ok, I'll bite.. why?

It follows naturally in every other RPG.
You know of the level 5 bull in pre-searing? As a mes, you can VERY easily solo it at a level 1. Some people, especially new players, have a problem doing this. You know why? Because they are new players. They're not familiar with the strategy required in GW. They don't know that degening and kiting can kill mobs that only charge at you. It's player skill; not level, early game, or what skills you have.

The creatures should most definitely get tougher. I was just saying that even in pre-searing, you should be fighting against monsters with abilities other than flare and attack. I even think there should be at least one elite offered there.

Skills should be balanced. Having flare vs meteor shouldn't make a difference. Meteor's cast time, recharge time, etc should balance with it's damage and kd. It does, actually.. wow.. Balance, Izzy does do more than PvP balancing I'm sure.

You are seriously missing the point.

Within the tutorial zone, such as Pre-Searing.

It's because people play once, and then don't ever want to play again.

Because the skill system in itself is awesome. It's primarily a non-grind based game. The PvP is excellent, and the PvE could potentially be just as awesome. I play to have fun, not to work myself to death. If you can show me a RPG game with a skill system as complex as this, that doesn't require grind at all, let me know.. I'd be switching very quickly.

ZOMG! if all unloked skillz can be usedd, TUTORIAL ISLAND WILL BE EASIER! Do u kno how long it took me 2 beet tutorial island? 3 MONTHS! U can't maek beginer island easy for theze noobs (not liek they wil hav any skillz neway but it is the prinsipal!). Maeking beginer islan sumwhat easyer COMPLETULLY DESTROIS TEH GAME!!! Of corse, heros have UAX nd taht didn't maek it muhc eazier anywayss... BUT IT MITE THIS TIME!!!

/unsigned, if thiz chaeng happns I QUIT GW ROARRRR

GW is nOT ABOUT SKILL, OR FUN, OR NETHING LIKE THAT! IT IS ABOOT GRINDING 4 STUF U ALREDY UNLOKED!!!

Hey, you know.. if I do that thing you don't like about taking quotes out of context, it looks like you almost agree with me on the subject.

Because you say so? Because other games make you pay a price before you can enjoy yourself? I'm sorry mate, you totally lost me.

From TGH:
He's a little rude about it, but I can't help but agree with him. Lyra_Song, you've got some potential for swaying my thoughts about it all, but you're still falling pretty short of explaining to me why you think the way you do. I may just be dense about it, but considering there are so many other people in agreement with me on the subject I can't help but think it just might be the opposition that are dense about what kind of game GW was/is.

Mythics -

I've just hit 8 million exp on my warrior, and am working toward UAS on him. You couldn't pay me enough to do this with my other characters. In my honest opinion, if this change were to happen, I may be inclined to try out a new character. But as the way things are, I doubt I ever make a new PvE character (only PvP characters now).

Keep fighting the good fight man. You have my vote.

Mack

GW PvE should be more RPG oriented. That is what will keep PvE players immersed and coming back.

For a PvE character, grind is necessary for the players that have completed the campaigns. Any characcter can complete the storyline with absolutely no grind.

The aspects for further immersion into the character do require grind. You get rid of this grind at any of the development milestones of the character, and you bring GW closer to an action game.

The PvP aspect of GW is more along the lines of an action game, with the quick roll of a character and the immersion into a competitive environment against opponents of like level and equipment, stat wise.

The skill trainers should not have all skills you have unlocked. They should have their regular inventory of available skills.

Keep the cost of skills, both gold and skill points where they are currently.

Allow heros to only use skills you have unlocked on that character, either through character acquisition of skill capping/buying from skill trainer or hero skill trainers.

All account based titles should not have any advance for a PvE character.

All PvE titles should have some in game effect/bonus only in the PvE environment.

These are my opinions, you can agree with them or not. I'm not trying to convince you that this is the best way, but it is the way I would prefer to see the game evolve.

I believe that grind has a very necessary place in any game for those players that wish to pursue or attain the prestige of acquiring titles/items/gold or whatever. The grind must not be required to fully enjoy the complete storyline, or inhibit the full completion of the campaign. It must be there for those players that choose to pursue the elements that have grind.

Ok fair enough.

Now tell me, still in that hypothetical situation, why it should be changed.

No, I dont agree with you.

Allowing unlocked skills would require a re-work of the game in many aspects. Purchasing skills is a huge gold sink. They would have to re-work the in game economy. That in itself is asking a lot for a game that is almost 2 years old.

I think we've already stated many times why it should be changed. Build flexibility. And the fact that re-buying skills is unnecessary grind and doesnt add anything to the game. If you want character progression there are many other ways to do it that won't interfere with build creation flexibility. Heck titles are one of those ways that grind lovers can work on for "character development"

I do have to say that you had some good suggestions for compromises, Lyra.

I believe character build creation is part of character development. You start out weak and as you progress you can gain more and more powerful builds.

weak --> strong

Also....what about having limited builds in a static PvE environment where monsters never change requires fixing?

In my previous posts ive shown that PvE can be done without changing your build much at all.

This is a major difference between PvE and PvP.

PvP requires dynamicism and change to keep the metagame from going stale.
PvE monsters will never have metagame. You know what skills they carry. Its not about monsters, its about your character.

-----------
For me. Its not rebuying skills. Every character is buying skills for the first time for that character.

Your warrior is not your monk and vice versa.

But you DO start out weak. Your low levels keep you weak. Having a 100 skills doesnt make you strong if you still dont have the attribute points to make them strong.

I do understand the character development and progression aspect. But there are other games that give you that in a far better experience. The attempts that GW tries to make fail miserably and only hinders the best features of it's gameplay

For example the whole attribute refund point system trying to give the sense that you're not suddenly switching attributes out of nowhere but it didnt add to any immersion or fun and was just tedious.

1k + 1 skill point, if thats not lazy I don't know what is. Your nightfall freebies give the platinum right there, and skill points are obtained by just doing simple missions.

[skill]Avatar of Grenth[/skill]

List the things you materialistically acquire then in PvE. Armor, Weapons, Titles, Money, Skills. It's pretty narrow, this is why PvE is not considered in depth compared to other RPG's. Your commentary on balance and how I collect "pokemon" are far and few inbetween. You want this "done" for you because you don't want to "grind". It's a simple case, and Inspector Gadget could look at it for 2 seconds and realize the truth.

What they do in GW2 for skill acquisition or lack thereof is going to be dependant on how indepth they want PvP to be in the future. Not because you can't farm/kill anything to gain skill points and platinum. The entire "balance" concept is flawed to begin with already so lets stray from that. There is no balance in PvP and nothing can be balanced realistically in PvE to begin with since it depends on environment a whole lot more.

If my warrior can get all the ranger skills and other elites just by grabbing henchmen, killing a boss taking all the loot and rinse wash repeat because it is his story through the game. Don't complain because you did it once you want it done for everyone else. Your complaining in a fancy way, it's none the less complaining and your justification on actually having things done for you comes down to because I did it once already.

I got my paycheck once, I guess it just keeps coming now...

Agree or disagree: Some skills are stronger than others.

Agree or disagree: Some of the best skills are farther in the game, and not at the start.

My pet peeve. People using bad analogies that don't make sense or apply at all. People will always warp them to fit their arguments.

Paycheck analogy? Ok I'll bite. I'm an artist. I get my paycheck. Then I switch careers and become a fireman. Does my paycheck from my artist days (assuming that I didnt spend it) suddenly disappear and I have to re-earn it? Or hell, do my skills that I learned being an artist disappear because I switch to being a fireman?

Analogies. Bah. Kids, dont do them.

Of course not all skills are equal. But all skills are still weak unless you have the attribute points to put into them. Agree or Disagree?

That's arguable. Some "bread and butter" skills are available very early in the game. Elites are available late in the game though.

Still it doesnt change that a low level character still has low level skills. But wouldnt you say that the PVE challenge will still be low for veteran players even though you're restricted in skill use as it currently is? Agree or disagree?

better analogy, your artist career burns in flames. So you change professional careers do you need education to do get the new profession? Yes.

Exactly. If I'm learning the profession for the first time then yes I should pay for the education. But if I already know the profession then why am I paying a second, third or even fourth time for schooling? Thanks.