Access to Unlocked Skills in PvE

Well, that's not a very good defense (I know that you agree with my point of course, but I am gonna just get this out of the way before somebody begins trying to rebuke me with that defense). A rune of superior Vigor would do low leveled characters good. Weapon mods can be applied to weapons of any requirement.

Heck, in Nightfall, you can get a ferry to Consulate Docks and get maximum armor at level 4 or so. No way you could do that with the cash you earned leveling to 4 Not to mention getting a run to LA and then to Droks, then going back- sure, it would cost quite a few platinum, but many people do it- just go into a runner group at a high level area and see how many low levels are in the group. Once again, the cash of your other characters helps your low levels. I could go on and on, but I think I made myself clear on this one :ninja

And, of course, once could argue that skills with low attributes wont do the low leveled characters much good, especially since heroes can use those skills and as we know, heroes using UAX is hardly a pressing issue.

I wish everybody who completely opposes this change would do so

So this isn't a suggestion for a change to the game, just cause its phrased differently? Okay.

Funny, despite all that you didn't answer my question about why if this is ever implemented that you won't find posts saying "I want to be able to use all unlocked runes/insignia's/mods". Which pretty much would kill that growth with new weapons/armours etc wouldn't it? And grasp of GW mechanics? Sure I'm no expert, but I think that having more skills is kinda more important than different skins? Whats the difference between sunspear and istani armour? Armour is armour, a gladius is the same as a fellblade. Are you trying to say that what you look like defines your character more than the skills he has?

And fun? Sure. But how many times and different ways can you stomp the same AI mob and have it stay fun? You'd be partying, but how long will the party last? Pve is easy enough as is with your old characters. How long will pve last after all your characters are like that? What's left then? Farming, but you're this isn't for that right?

Gaining skills in pve is getting to know the skills. You start out with a bunch, learn them and use them, buy more if needed.

Yes, I'd hate to go through the game again from scratch with my Ritualist or Ranger, but hey, I already got one. And all have their primary unlocked. So if I see a skill from secondary that can be useful to them, I buy it.

Going trough the game with another profession, is what keeps the game nice, imo. Buy and learn new skills, use them. Start out with a new ele (ie), learn new skills on that character. Then to find out "Hey, this might work on my Rit!" and then go buy that on the Rit, and try it out. 1k for a new skill ain't that big of a deal then...

No need for skill grinding, no need for skill unlock.


NOTE: I don't see the need to unlock ALL skills for ALL profession on just 1 character. I strive to get all primary, but said above, use/try only the secondary skills that seem useful. Primary is about a 140 skills. Playing the game that's less than 140k. Not much.

Haha man right on! I work to learn all the primary skills and that isn't too hard... but learning all the skills of every profession??? Counterstrike plx!!!

I have argued that already.
You can make a significant amount of money before you reach lvl 20.
Just play the game normally. Do missions, do quests, etc.

my pov is....anything that develops outside of the main storyline, any of the titles, 15k armors, etc, are all grind-based.

If you choose to gain a LOT of skills, this falls outside of the main storyline. This is your choice to gain a lot of skills.

You don't need a lot of skills to be effective. In fact...some might argue that theres only so many skills that are actually useful.

------------

So um...ya...whats the point? .-.

I could argue that its a grind to collect skills the first time.
And some would agree with that

Anet could remove that "grind".

But....what happens to the game?

Oh yeah, GW has about 1100 skills over all ten professions. Not 1000 per prof...

Some of you are being rather silly, trying to make your thoughts and opinions seem far more logical than others.
No a level 3 ele with skills is not that strong, I got meteor shower on my damn ele in Ascalon and I couldnt use it well.
Why? Energy cost.

The skills really dont mean much if you dont have the attributes to utilize them well. Rather then complain about the IMBA created through this, you can ALREADy get skills you've unlocked but you have to pay a fine.

However the fine goes to 1 platinum after, buying all skills for your profession and its secondary is damn costly (other than its primary attribute). Oh this is no big deal to farmers, but I don't enjoy farming some people just like to play with the economy.

Honestly letting you salvage weapons you make from pvp is far more Imbalanced than this -_-.

If I spent Tons of gold unlocking all skills for my pve assassin....then I decide okay you've had a good run lets try it with Dervish and Ele to keep it fresh....well I just want to finish pve so I can enjoy those 2 and move onto pvp. Why not just make a pvp char? Pve is fun its own right.

Letting players get skills they've already unlocked is fine ASLONG as it does not include elite skills. As I mentioned before a end game discount item is a way to do this. Newbies can't just unlock things and those that have already beaten the game...well why are you having them go through the exact same thing all over again, why cant they enjoy it differently this time (as long as you aint hacking bubs).

Which would have been imediately required for armour and runes, which cost in the vacinity 15k at Factions release if memory serves.

And because you are content playing with a minute selection of skills everyone else should be denied playing with a reasonable amount?


Clearly this assertion is incorrect, I would hold myself and the many other people in this thread as counterexamples.

As shown on my previous page, it takes 3100 skill points to aquire a reasonable amount of skills to start playing with builds. This requires at least 6 million XP on each character. I don't know about you, but after 3500 hours only 2 of my 10 of my characters have anywhere near that amount xp

3 plat/hr is a terrible exaggeration, it far closer to 1 plat/hr in my experience but I'll compromise at 2. In order to get a reaonable amount of skills it would over 1500 hours of play time, so you can't coun't grouping time, chatting time, time you spent getting coffee etc. I spend at least an hour or two playing every night since release and I still don't think I've racked up that much actual playtime.

This one doesn't bother me personally, but I don't see the need to restrict people that it does.

There are threads alread in the sanitarium for this topic and people aguing for and against it. I suggest you take any objections there.

You see the game as progressing through the story line building your character and aquiring stuff. Others see the game as developing builds and adventuring with them. When you realise that other's methods of playing and gaining enjoyment are equally valid to your own, I'm sure you will come around. With the current system, such a player must grind for thousands of hours before they can even begin to enjoy themselves - I've been through it myself and I don't think others should have to.

I also notice that while everyone says a lvl3 is not as effective as a lvl20, which is obvious, no one has said anything about how that lvl3 can become a lvl20 within a day. Why don't we just ask that all pve characters start at lvl20 then? Maybe cause that is bad for long term pve?

And as for energy cost? That has nothing to do with level, but with armour, weaps and runes. And GoLE doesn't really need points at all. And you also get that free I might add.

About the phrasing part: Yup.

Once again... stomping the mob? You do not understand this game. Having unlocked skills gives me NO statistical advantage... you are acting as if someone with all unlocked skills usable would be Godlike... he wouldn't. And from what you say about AI mobs... it seems that you don't find this game fun and just play to increase your e-peen.

Skills don't define your character. You can have 8 at a time. Get it through your head.

Now, for the coup de grace:

You are comparing 2 completely different things.

Skills: Getting all the skills usable by your character would cost roughly 1,000 platinum. An amount no casual gamer will ever possess.

All that other stuff can easily be obtained by any casual gamer. You are comparing a... say, 50 platinum requirement to a 1,000 platinum requirement. Going through one campaign should yield you at LEAST 50k, especially in Nightfall.

That's where the difference comes in. All the other stuff you mentioned can be obtained by a casual player. The skills can't. And this limits your options in gameplay. See, skills give you more gameplay options- experimenting with new builds, learning how to run new builds, that's a huge part of the fun. Not being limited by what your character knows, but what YOU know, and your skill in the game.

-If characters become level 20 so quickly, what's the big deal of giving them unlocks? Your argument is that giving these skills make a low level character too powerful- then you turn around saying you are only a low level character for one day anyway. See the contradiction?

And your level 20 thing is completely off topic so I don't feel it is necessary to respond. It seems you are trying to go off on a tangent to gain ground in the debate, it's not working. Besides, as you say- in one day, you can reach level 20. Looks like all pve characters basically start out as 20 anyway.

Because it's a hypothetical question with no basis in what we are arguing. NO ONE has mentioned those things. Basically, you're doing that strawman tactic that you cant seem to get away from.

It's like me arguing that the concept of skill points should be taken out because there will be people saying "I want skill points to cost even more XP to gain as part of character development" Stick to what is ACTUALLY being said instead of making up hypothetical problems and putting words into people's mouths.

You seem to be missing something -_-

For an Ele Why do you put energy storage? For energy correct, well you can't get a decent amount of energy and attack power at a low level. So adding skills wont matter correct? Though you have to pay ALOT to get armour then lets tack on skills. around the first 10 skills cost less then 1 platinum. Core classes have about 140-200 skills somehwere in that area I dont feel like looking it up right now, so thats 140-200k - the 10 cheaper skills which will still ad up to about 3/6k For a new player thats alot.

Now, you all say that money isn't alot I've had GW for a year and you see I have no intention of farming, tried it hated it, fell asleep. Doing all the quests....I rather do that AFTER finishing the main story and then just finishing my little errands of helping villagers after. So how much money do I develop from the main story, not enough to test builds.
____(sections to people who don't approve)

NOT EVERYONE wants to use cookie cutter builds, There are tons of skill combinations if people have to buy the cookie cutting skills off the bat or find that their in a financial depletion later, well you don't care right? You only want cookie cutters because people using originality on a game they purchased is damn upsetting right? When you start your first character you may try out different secondarys blah blah blah, now you want skills to go with that....if you tried to get all NON primary skills for each of your secondarys assuming you have all secondarys your basically using up a lot of damn money. Now if you want something like obsidian armour with the growing rate of Ecto's.....well you have to farm.

When people start a new character its so they can enjoy pve again or go to pvp after a little world saving maybe just so they can go to tihark orchard and hang out. A-net probably realizes not everyones a farmer so why put such massive gold sinks. If I beat the game, put my hours in Why should I do it all over again The same exact way with a different class. I can atleast adventure with different builds without paying through the nose.

Thanks for answering that better than I did man.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Secondary_profession

Besides a handful of exceptions, all games and sports will change some rules. Hardly anything is always the same with the same rules. You CAN change some rules and still have the basic premise of the game intact.

See this statement irks me. Where is this "Rule" of RPG anyway? Who dictates this? Is there a bible of RPG that we must follow? Seriously, I'd like to know.

And even if we do stick to that "basic rule of character progression" who says what kind of progression is dictated? There's definately level progression in GW. And story progression. And there's titles.

Seriously, I heard the same thing back when I fought for attribute refund points to be removed. The same "RPG progression" arguments were thrown out as well. "OMG U shudnt be able 2 change attribute lines instantly! It's not realistic and RPG-like!!!!!! "

I actually havent bought any runes for my assassin. All my runes i get from playing normally as drops. Im using my pre-order daggers and Im using a build from Newbie Land. I keep trying new builds...but i just cant find one thats as good as my simple build from newbieland. I'm sure theres better ones out there, but my build works really well for me, and i substitute some moves in for specific areas, but thats about it.

It is your choice to buy more skills outside of the ones they give you by default. As Ernada said some of the "bread and butter" skills are given to you. You have enough skills to be functional.

Anet has already made a compromise with its players by giving them access to unlocked skills by buying it in the first place.

"Give them an inch, they'll take a mile"

I guess the arguement is then "what is normal gameplay" ?

The game is designed to be played a certain way.

You can choose to play outside of this original design. This is up to you.

But how you choose to play the game doesnt change the fact that the game is still designed to be played a certain way.

The natural progression of Prophecies involves Ascalon -> Shiverpeaks -> Kryta -> Maguuma ->Desert-> Shiverpeaks -> Fire Isle

Factions and Nightfall are even more strict, since they lockout the content with gates.

You can take many shortcuts and progress faster through the game. But this would usually involve outside help from another character, runners, ferries, guildmates, or another character to farm the money to fund your armor, etc.

Such shortcuts are outside of the natural progression of the game.

As such, I do not feel that Anet should contribute to letting players play outside of of this natural progression, since it contradicts the design so explictly.

Giving access to all unlocked skills for newly made characters feels too much outside of this natural progression.

If a player wants to play outside the natural flow of the game, that is their choice.

But they have to pay in: Time, effort, and gold.

Your paragraph is entirely predicated on people playing through the game once and only once per character.

I have guildies and friends, so I cannot count the number of times I have voluntarily helped people through THK.

PvE has made it for close to 2 years for me, as well as most folks on this forum.

We are not discussing the end of PvE. We have a sandbox, and players will play in it as long as it is fun. (helping others, farming, yakking, etc)

What would be a better question is the net result to players in the game. Will making these changes to make the game easier to play through again and again by re-acquiring skills unlocked by other characters you have played have a net positive or negative on the player base?

I think that we who argue for this believe that it will bring players back who see a huge workload to try and catch up on the game. I have friends who have ceased playing the game because they did not get every class through Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. They see a HUGE workload ahead of them to get those skills they see me using to beat Varesh silly.

What, they are supposed to buy the PvP packs? Whoops, no help there.

Oh, they are supposed to start characters and play through all three campaigns? Uh, no, they are going to play another specific MMO that is coming out about now because it is more approachable.

Lets do ANet's math, shall we? Cold cash.

Is the number of players who will NOT buy GW:EN greater than the number of players who will buy GW:EN based on and because of this change?

You do the math.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

So rather than making a new character and taking it through, getting all the primary skills and the main secondary skills, which nowhere gets near 1000k (which would be EVERY skill in 3 GW chapters including duplicates), you have to unlock ALL 1000 skills on ALL your characters. Well, I'm sorry then, you're not lazy, just greedy. If you want it, good for you, but I don't think it should just be handed to you. Oh, and BTW, you're already godlike without needing even half of all skills unlocked on any character. Well, except for maybe mesmers who take a bit longer in pve.

And I'm not saying that it overpowers all low lvl characters. I'm saying that it overpowers all characters. Maybe it's you who hasn't played in a while, but take a character with even a moderate amount of unlocks, grab your party and go play pve for a awhile. Then come back and tell me you didn't steamroll everything in pve. Short of the elite farming areas, can you tell me a single place in pve where its so hard that having even half unlocks doesn't make you godlike?

Oh, and does this mean that you would support "I want all mods/runes/etc that I unlock to be available to all my character's"? Just asking cause you don't actually answer that bit. This isn't theoretical. Look beyond this topic. Cause can you honestly tell me that if they change this for skills, that you won't have people demanding this for everything else?

And yes, thanks for that link about secondaries. Whats your point? Here's one for you:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Skills

Total skills (not each profession) in the game are 1134 with 290 duplicates. Are you saying you NEED all 1000 for each and every one of your characters?

Well there we have it. First we were lazy. And now we're greedy. And you wonder why I don't even bother replying to your other "points?"

If you believe any of that, you have absolutely no idea of how this game works, making your posts as useful as a 2nd grader explaining brain surgery.

True, I have guildies who haven't tried new professions since it seem so much work. I also know plenty of players who reach the level cap and ask "what's left for my character?". Other than getting bling and new skills so they could try new things, what is left? Doesn't taking away one of the few differences between a new lvl20 and an old lvl20 make him less likely to play through more than once or twice?

And cold hard cash is the main factor, true. But I disagree with you here. dedicated GW players will go and try all sorts of strange builds and running missions over and over in different ways. I still play pve now and then (either farming or building a new character. But does the casual gamer? Or does he play it so he can "beat" it and then pimp out his character? Does he start a new character, find that he can run all his old skills and get bored halfway through?

Quick question...


You do realize that we are asking for nothing we have not already gotten ourselves correct.


We are NOT asking for freebies. Only access to that which we have already unlocked.


No matter how it was unlocked, pve or pvp, all we want is access to it.


You can not really tell me you think getting access to unlocked SKILLS is getting something for free right? We already put the time in to unlock it. Why shouldn't we get it?

Who are you to tell us how to play anyway?


Oh and heres a question for everyone...


What about pvP packs?

If this was added (either just given, or given at ascension/equiv) PvE players would have a REASON to buy those PvP packs right?

Thats money in Anets pocket. And that translates into more stuff for us.

More revenue = More dev time = more content.


:/

Any response to that? Anyone?

Concise answer: 1k gold per skill is too much and skill points are too rare. I've been playing since day 1, and I couldn't even come close to having all skills of a single primary and secondary on any of my characters, let alone have good variety for multiple characters.

Don't just hand them out to new characters, but at least eliminate the gold cost for already-unlocked skills when you reach a skill trainer that could normally teach you that skill, if not removing the skill point cost as well.

140k is a heck of a lot of gold. My total net worth across all of my few characters is just slightly higher than that, and that's just because of a couple lucky drops (sup. vigor).

I sure hope Anet reads this topic.

Tell me how wanting all skills on all characters is not greedy? You get it for one character, sure. Perfectly reasonable. But all? Tell me how you absolutely must HAVE them ALL on every character you play?

And if Rakeman, I notice you went for the insult rather than naming a single pve area you couldn't roll. Just look at all the parties nowadays. Can you say a single place (beginner or end game) that heroes (who have full unlocks) don't just crush totally. Now imagine that in the hands of a human, rather than an AI. Tell me again that isn't overpowered.

Would it really work that way? Or will pver's far and wide suddenly say "Anet's just trying to shake us down for money". Will some beginner pve buy the game, see everyone else's newbie characters running around with their uber builds and all he's got is firstorm? And that he could be like that too, if he'd only pay Anet money? That'd go down real well, I'm sure he'd tell all his friends.

It wasn't an insult. It's a fact. What you are saying now has nothing to do with the discussion at all. Nonetheless, I sure HOPE I can get through any PvE area... I guess you forget that this is a game... and if a game is unbeatable... well... not much of a game. Sounds pretty frustrating actually.

I do seriously recommend you go play the game as opposed to discussing it. You really do need to get a better grip on the game's mechanics.

Thats because pve is easy.... :/

Whats the difference if the group pwns it with all the skills or half the skills?

none... stop grasping at straws.

Yeah, because PvPers far and wide suddenly said "Anet's just trying to shake us down for money". I guess all those people rejoicing over the PvP Unlock Packs was just my imagination. And I laugh at your comment about the beginner seeing everybody running around with uber builds. Right now, wont some newbie necromancer in Elona see somebody with Flesh Golem and see that he can be like that too, if he pays Guild Wars money for Factions? And then pay, because he feels it's worth the money? *sigh* I wonder how many times every single argument you make has to be completely destroyed before you give up.

You have the choice to buy it now. You do not as you do not need it.


Do YOU feel that it would be worth it if buying it gave you access to all the skills for your RP chars? ?

Not everyone would buy it.

A good deal would. And most likely a larger percentage than you seem to think would.


Your fond of telling me why this idea is un-needed, let me recycle that and tell you that you do not need to buy the pack, you can continue to play the way you prefer to, but that should this idea ever be implemented, you would have a choice.

You could "choose" not to buy the pack and get the unlocks...

I do not get a choice. I HAVE to play YOUR WAY at the moment. A bit unfair? Most of the people here think so.

No, I'm not saying that you can just get through it. I'm saying name me a single place in pve where 3 heroes and 4 henchies don't totally crush everything in your path. I've played through all 3 games with guildies and I've played through all 3 games with henchies and the heroes in nightfall, and they're not too far behind.

And I'm just average. And even I'm saying this would overpower pve and wreck any balance at all. So what's this got to do with anything about game mechanics. Maybe YOU need to play the game more if you're just scraping through pve. Cause your grasp of facts seems a bit off.

Yes, it is easy. So how is making it even easier for newly created characters going to encourage people to replay pve for the next 6 months?

LOL! Come on, at least try to post something at least SOMEWHAT relevant to the discussion. Or just accept that you're wrong. XD

You can choose to play your way, youll just have a harder time since you want to skip a lot of the game. .-.

Pvp unlocks are like $40 a pop. That's all you pay. You don't need to own the actual campaign. So you can unlock all skills across all 3 chapters and pvp for like $120.

For pve, you need to own the actual campaign. So assuming you can get the campaigns at prophs at $30, factions at $40 and nightfall at $50. That's $120. And then you need to pay another $120 on top of that? Would you pay that? If you were just some new player, or a casual? Sure you pay to buy factions if you wanted FG, but pay twice? Most will just ignore the unlocks and get FG by capping. But it will stay in their heads that Anet put out something where they would double charge me. Tell me how that will get good press...

I notice again that you can't name a single area where you'd have difficulty in pve. A single place in pve where having full unlocks wouldn't overpower the game. Where having all your characters like this wouldn't shorthen the lifetime of pve.

I have not had to say this to someone for a while. But your borderline stubborn.


Look... Learn... And pay attention....


You just told me. That giving players access to skills. Would imbalance pve.

So like, PvE's balance rests soley on the fact the everyone DOES NOT have access to all skills.

That IS what you just said right?

-_-

*sigh*

Whats the difference if someones buys a skill. Then uses it.

Or unlocks a skill. and then uses it.

?

That person is still going to use X skill either way...

The fact that you are most likely being sincere in what you say scares me more than your inability to accept that you are wrong.

Exactly. Because that has NOTHING to do with the topic. You are saying PvE is easy. I acknowledge that. PvE is easy. And it wouldn't be any more or less easy with or without the unlock all, except possibly on noob island. It has nothing to do with the topic, so I didn't respond. Sure, you may have 1,000 skills. But you can only use the same amount of skills at once as anybody who has 8 or more. It wouldn't shorten the lifetime of PvE. Stop grasping at straws. Stop posting off topic.

You've just described about 1% of the "natural progression" of prophesies. To me it would be Ascalon -> Shiverpeaks -> Kryta -> Maguuma ->Desert-> Shiverpeaks -> Fire Isle -> Shiverpeaks -> Desert -> Desert -> Maguuma -> Shiverpeaks etc etc etc etc. You want to constrain people to using the same fraction of skills over and over?

No, its my expectation to be able to access a reasonable amount of the games content without having to grind for thousands of hours first.


The game was also "designed" to have refund points and unlocks only via pve. When enough people tell anet that the design they came up with inteferes with their enjoyment, they'll come around.