Access to Unlocked Skills in PvE

This really isn't your traditional RPG and it shouldn't be about grind for skills.I really hate thinking that I have to go all the way to the Maguuma Jungle which is pretty dead to do missions to get skill points as if I have done it a 12 times already.I would prefer to grab all my skills in Ascalon and be on my merry way to Sanctum Cay to Ascend to get the rest of my attribute points.When you unlock skills it is aviable on your account and don't forget this isn't you average RPG.

Not really, how does training to be an artist compare to being a lawyer? Then a doctor? You should be paying for the school its necessary for specific reasons. Just because you have a PhD in Philosophy does not make it good for you to be handling peoples lives like a doctor.

Why should the Warrior have all the skills you gained previously as an elementalist? Granted few are used competitively yet it is unfair. You cannot implement something to this degree in a game like this where it isn't even exactly skill its determination. The amount of time it took you to make these posts you could have farmed like 100k and about 20 skill points. Why complain when these things are easily accessible? The skill trainer never says "no", it doesnt happen only once a week, gaining skill points is ridiculously easy.

The argument here is that you want things "unlocked" for all your PvE characters after you done it the first time. The reason this probably isn't even in sardelac is because they have too much junk like this over there.

Why should my pre searing ele have all the fire elites possible? Along with meteor shower etc etc, which are skills that are "more powerful" then most.

You have no debate if you bring in balance and you have no debate if you bring in profession swapping. This is guildwars, a Co-RPG, that is designed on skill theoretically, yet that skill needs to be developed first. Development of the game entirely starts with PvE. Flavor wise it makes more then enough sense that per character your skills are unlocked. In PvP where the original usage of PvP characters were built for a specific purpose was made account based so if you decided to use faction you can use it again. PvE is the grind of guildwars, if you don't want to grind pvp.

This is why I sometimes loathe discussing anything on forums, because people like you make these wild exagerations and bring them up as though they're legitimate points.


And that's exactly why people like me don't find it fun and here to make suggestions about it. As I said in the GuildHall forums, PVE will never improve because the majority of players who play it like grind way too much because it's easy and it's something that they can achieve and still call an "accomplishment" because it requires a lot of time. I said it more bluntly but it still applies.

Agree. But the strength of a skill is also in its synergy with other skills.
Dismember + Executioners Chop is good.
Eviscerate + Executioners Chop is better.

Even at axe mastery of zero.

its a natural progression.
Even at low levels, evis is better than dismember. eviscerate is at the end of prophecies.

Agreed.

But being a veteran player has nothing to do with having a veteran character.

I have my main account and a second account.
My second account is barely unlocked.
Its gonna be a while before that second account is up and running on par with my first.

I know how to play this game, i know how the skills work, i know the missions, i know the monsters, i know how to play my classes.
Do you think it would be fair if i demanded to have access to all the skills that I know in my head, even though this new account is very new?
I know it already, i dont need any more tutorials of training, why cant they just give me everything since i know it already?

Thats kind of absurd, since the accounts are not linked, but the principle remains the same.
I know it already. I dont need to re-learn it.

We're talking about beating each campaign once, twice, three, four, maybe five or more times, and having purchased or captured the same skills several times over... and then wanting to start a new PvE character, either of a new primary or a previously played one, and being loathe to go through that entire skill acquisition process yet once again.

Recently, I had the cool idea of starting a new character in Prophecies and playing through all three campaigns sequentially to experience the whole story as one continuity, but then remembered how long it would take to acquire all of the already unlocked skills I've grown accustomed to using on my five other characters, and how much gold it would cost, and so gave up on the idea.

Heroes have really complicated this, to be honest, regarding both skills and gold. Before heroes came along, I used to just buy/capture the skills my character needed. Now each of my characters has every secondary unlocked, and I've run all over the place purchasing and capturing skills for hero builds, even if my characters themselves don't use or need them.

I find myself frequently micro-managing which characters I should use to unlock which skills with, based upon which one might actually use the skill at some point, and how feasible it will be or how long it will take to get a character to that area. And talk about a gold sink... taking care of almost 70 heroes across 5 characters gets expensive if one unlocks all the skills they need, and invests in the runes and max equipment to make them really worthwhile. There's just not as much gold to go around as there was before heroes, and hero skill points and trainers only help so much. Some don't care about spending anything on their heroes, but I treat mine like characters.

And as far as the whole game balance argument goes, it's kinda silly how once a new character gets to Lion's Arch and then Kamadan and Kaineng City, one can have seven heroes with access to just about every skill in the game, but the character itself is stuck with the handful of skills available for purchase or acquired through skill quests up to that point. I understand why it's setup that way, but it doesn't make it fun.

And about account vs character access... all of my characters share storage, materials and gold with each other; my heroes share skills and can share equipment if necessary (wish that was an easier process too); and anything unlocked in PvE is instantly available to all of my PvP characters. It just feels like the separation of skill unlocks amongst PvE characters is something of an arbitrary thing that isn't really necessary. If we paid a monthly fee, I could see why they'd want us to keep doing the same things over and over again - but in the absence of one, it isn't really necessary. I bet if they unlocked them, most of the people complaining about it would actually dig it in practice, and play PvE more because of it.

In any event, Hard Mode sure would be fun with a fully decked out character from the very beginning... kinda like in Marvel Ultimate Alliance, where one can take their uber characters who have finished the game, with all of their unlocked heroes and equipment, and play through the whole game again. That's really fun.

I hear this a lot. So why not just get rid of level's, money, and the need to buy weapons, armor, runes, etc. Also, give all players all skills (including elites) and hero's when they create their characters. This should put everyone on the same playing field, remove any grind, and (in my opinion) make for a very boring game. But hey, it would truly be a game that has no grind where player skill > time spent.

Dude, if your that pessimistic play Tetris. There is your skill without grind. GG

Ya but thats not an RPG -.o

And youre talking about the same character going through the game and beating it as a stronger character. You can do this already. Just zone back to the first mission...do it as a lvl 20.

What we're talking about a brand new character having access to all things as if it was a fully developed character. Which it isn't.

Dude, do you have any actual points other than idiotic hyperbole?

Hmm... I've played MUA a lot, and it's just as much, if not more, of an RPG than Guild Wars is. The dialogue options are certainly deeper. GW isn't really an RPG either, if we want to be pedantic about it. It's about as deep of an RPG as Dungeon Siege.

Actually no... in MUA one can choose to play the second run though with a different hero character and an entirely new group, but with everything that was unlocked and acquired through the first time available from the beginning. One still has to develop the new characters, at least if everything was set to manual the first the time through rather than auto-levelling, and unlock things that weren't unlocked the first time through. It's not like everything is handed to the player on a silver surfboard.

When I first read that one could do this in MUA, I thought, "what's the point in playing through again with uber characters?" But once I tried it, it became apparent what the point was... it was a blast. Thinking about it honestly, if I'd been forced to start over completely from scratch, I'd probably not have played through again, and missed out on all of the cool heroes and stuff I didn't do the first time through.

I guess that could be a workaround, if I lowered my attributes to something more comparable to the level I'd be in that area. Hadn't really thought about that before. Would miss the quests and progression of the storyline however.

But still, it would be more fun to start a new Mes/Ele character in pre-searing and have all of the skills I've unlocked over the last two years available right away, especially the water and earth magic line, as it takes a very long time to get to those.

I'm not asking for the game to be played for me, with every map point, item and skill that I've not previously acquired open from the get go. I'm just asking for an easier way to access the 1424 skills across all three campaigns other than spending 1.4 million gold x the number of characters one has, especially since I've already done all the work for that at least once before.

Anyway, I think making unlocked skills more readily available would help make the PvE side of things more enjoyable and fun. From my perspective as a PvE player, it wouldn't hurt anything in practical application; most of the theories about how it would ruin gameplay, balance, the economy and the RPGness of things are simply that, theories. And there's no shortage of things for one to sink gold into.

Levels are the only true character progression existing, you'd have the entire PvE whinebase jumping you on that one. Probably moreso than I have regarding skills.

Gold/Money is useless already outside of skill acquisition. Getting a 19% vs a 20%, is only such a huge difference because of a half-retarded playerbase.

Weapons, Armor, Runes, etc are also pretty much useless. I can go through prophecies with starter items (including armor) and never buy a rune. They are only there to aid those that need character development and to feel 'special'.

It's not a grind when you acquire the skill the first time, that's just simply the game. Having to re-acquire that skill even when you choose to play a new character with the same primary, creates a huge rift in the game where skill acquisition becomes a grind.

Realism, aka (Why should my fireman be able to draw like an artist?) is the most rediculous thing, especially when it comes to GW. It's a fantasy game, fantasy....game. Make it fun to play, not a chore. Go plant a garden if you need grind. Go to work and do w/e you do there, you get paid for the work there. Video games should be fun, you know.. not work. I didn't pay money so I could work for an ingame reward. I paid for a game so that I could enjoy myself.

You guys are so funny. Most of you think the only idea here is to give everyone all unlocked skills right off the bat. Why not tell my why when you ascend, you shouldn't get access to your unlocked skills? Granted, the first good bit of the game would still be tremendously boring, but not unplayable if you know it wouldn't take too long to get USA (unlocked skill access).

Double unlock is a little redundant, although it might anti-grind for some WoWers, I still support this.

/signed

What RPG has just given everything to you? It doesnt sound like role-playing to me whatsoever. I understand the "entertainment" factor yet I know I would have stopped playing PvE personally if whenever I made a character and decided to blow up pre-searing myself. There is this progression and grind, and it is gonna happen no matter what RPG you play. It's the style of the game, even action adventure games you progressively gain more abilities etc etc. Lyra had a decent analogy on the two accounts. One account is fully unlocked I guess he can email Anet and get everything unlocked again on the other. The professions about life I think make alot of sense (besides the fact I brought it up).

You could have been the one to crack down Enron in the court of law, yet if someone is bleeding and only has minutes to live you have no chance in hell to save the person. So why should my warrior have all the skills in the entire game then all of a sudden transplant that to an elementalist in presearing? Oh yea because "I did most of it already" well in my opinion no you haven't. You played the game as a warrior not an elementalist, you have probably had a different role in groups, used different skills, completed different sub-quests, and probably got accepted or kicked a bit more for your profession. It does not matter if you got the skills as a secondary because the secondary is optional for your character to begin with. Nobody even said anything close to this when Prophecies was only out, so since there are 3 campaigns I guess you just wanna play the game 3 times then have everything in PvE handed to you? Farm the gold, farm the skill points all of this is 24/7 accessible. You don't need to wait for a weekend event, or any ohter restriction. The skill trainer in droks isn't going to shut you down, and its not like trolls dont spawn anymore.

And of course I only have Idiotic Hyperboles only, this whole thread is a ridiculous complaint along the lines of "Mommy give me!"

In a game where you can reach the maximum level in a few hours?

Perhaps acquiring skills should be level based then?

Other skill systems are based on skill trees and skill points. If you go down a certain branch of the skill tree, you wont have points for the other skills.

Ive already found Guild Wars to have the least restrictive skill system around. Our only restriction is money and skill points (which ive pointed out ideas of reducing said cost).

"I want this skill, that skill, that skill." Just buy it. If you dont have a skill unlocked, jump into PvP, make 1000 balth points to unlock it, and then you can buy it anywhere.

If you really want to split hairs, you should be mad that we have a class system in the first place. Since this restricts what skills your character can use to just 2 professions.

I dont know about being useless.

Developing a proper character with the correct armor setup and rune setup for specific builds is a big part of developing a character for specific uses.

Say you want to make a Minion master. Well...basic MM skills are easy to get. The real trouble is getting Minion master armor and weaponry.

This is supposed to be half the fun. Building and making your character as you see fit.

If you find it annoying and a drag to actually build up a character...then maybe this type of gameplay is not your style.

But this skill acquisition is still for a NEW character.

Its starting over from scratch. Warrior A does not equal Warrior B.

Perhaps a system where you could kill Warrior A, and ressurect him as Warrior B? So you could re-roll a PvE character, granted that they start in the same continent, but only if the previous character is fully developed. Now that would be interesting.

Its not a matter of realism. Its simple logic. Theres no logic in expecting person A to have the same skills person B, especially since person A didn't go to the same vocational school.

Yes it is a GAME.

Games have set RULES. Rules are part of the game and they structure the gameplay so it is an actual game, not just goofing around with a ball without any purpose.

1. You cant go offsides
2. You can only have 5 players on the ice
3. You cant step over this line
4. You can only move 1 space at a time
5. You can only have one of each number in a row
6. No clinching, no headbutting, no biting, no punching below the waist
7. The game ends at checkmate
8. Killing the ghostly hero gives you a morale boost

Name me one game (sports, board game, video games) that has no set rules?

Your idea is in violation of a very basic rule of character progression in RPGs.

The less and less rules you have, the less of a game it becomes.

No. The idea is for new characters to have access to unlocked skills.

Ascension is completely arbitrary and occurs in different equivalences in the 3 games.

You don't have access to those skills because that character never learned it. Simple as that.
================
On a side note, even "Non-games" like Second Life, have rules and restrictions. And things in Second Life require REAL money

Is Lyra suggesting no professions at all? Will the best build of all time... the echo mending wammo finally no longer be a dream?

Good post Lyra.

duh! You should just use Ebay (or any one of the other gold selling site). I have been saying that this whole thread. Once you realize that ebaying gold is the only way one can enjoy this game then you will be better off.

Agreed, good post lyra_song and Shmanka.

Skill acquiring is a money sink take it or leave it...
It's amazing how lazy the community has become.
"I want my skills as soon as possible and i want them for free" #whine & #care

QFT

Anet give in on a sooner acquisition of skills and still it's not enough.
If you can't take the time to gather the needed funds and skillpoints to buy your skill then don't even bother playing the game, and make a macro that does it for you instead.

/rant

Sounds like the players who actually want this just want to make farming characters because they saw a build on the internet and that isn't their main character.

So they want to make a new PvE character, get the skills with their older character, and have the skills available for the new character - for free.

The better posts in this thread haven't said "make skill acquisition automatic" or "make skill acquisition free" - they have said, "I would like an alternative to spending all my gold on skills, especially skills I have already paid for elsewhere" and in several cases proposed them.

If you are so convinced that skills must cost gold, do you want to get rid of skill quests in Prophecies? And if skill quests in Prophecies are acceptable, haven't you already admitted that some form of skill acquisition other than paying through the nose at a skill trainer is acceptable?

I keep reading a few things that strike me as contradictory.

1. the argument about the casual gamer. since the casual gamer is more or less defined as "someone who is not posting on this forum," bringing up the casual gamer is just an attempt to channel your own views through a third party that, by definition, can't be refuted.

2. the argument about the casual gamer seems to be that casual gamers don't need that many skills. I don't know why casual gamers don't need that many skills, but it seems to mesh oddly with the argument that

3. if you want skills just go farm for the gold, farming is so easy and fast and pshaw, any decent player can make 20k in under an hour.

It seems like only the extremes are being represented; you have on one side

(a) a casual gamer who only needs 15 skills and is perfectly content to play with them, and maybe buy another one every week or so, who knows, maybe after a year they will have fifty skills, woo hoo!

and on the other

(b) uber leet gamer who can buy skills by the dozen in between buying spare sets of FoW armor so he can have one black one and one white one.

but nothing in between.

There should be a solution for people who like to play, are willing to play and go to some effort to acquire skills, but can't make money at the rapid rate of a very experienced farmer.

well why not

a) once you ascended you don't just auto unlock all skills put in a NEW quest maybe called Inner focus/skill where after beating it you can get all skills you have previously unlocked but for 10g! instead of 1k platinum skills you haven't unlocked still cost 1k platinum, of course elite skills still must be payed with signet of capture so that will still cost 1k platinum.

b)Make an item, quest item for late game where its like
Factions: talk to X in imperial sanctum beat the quest and get a gem this gem when in inventory lets you buy all skills previously unlocked for 10g/100g/400g whatever.
Nightfall: X in Kodash baazar since nightfall hurries you through ascension and stuff, do the quest get the gem
prophecies: Abbadons gate do the above get the gem

Gems are transferable and usable by all characters, so just give it to a char and let you pass this is proof that you've beaten the higher areas and deserve to unlock your skills

c) Change quests rewards to include more skills its not hard just make it at end of quest you get a skill bingo bango its no longer grind due thousands of quests to get the money to buy skills.

Thats a great idea.

Thank you, I just thought a discount is better then getting stuff for free.

your character isnt god he just can't all of a sudden come up with skills out of thin air. Though if the gem was customized by the character who got it sort of like armor so you cant trade it to other players other then those who on your account.

I see the trolls have accused people of being too lazy to farm for skill points and gold. And then I see the same trolls saying that these are farmers who just want skills available so they can farm.

So which is it? Except for Lyra, most of the rest of you arguing against this have no clue what you're talking about.

Peace.

The game itself if you do all the quest gives you enough money for about 2 maybe 3 15k armours but with buying skills your lucky to get 1 with the outrageous price of Globs of Ectoplasm/obsidian shards and ruby/sapphire and whatever the hell the purpose of Diamonds are!

I love the ideas of FoW armor, dyes, titles, green items, etc. That doesn't mean I personally intend to acquire them. I think they are a wonderful addition to the game.

I am a casual gamer. I play games, casually. I don't get 5 hours a day to play. I don't want to spend the time I do have farming, grinding levels, or anything along those lines. I do want to have fun with very versatile strategic options.

The scary thing is that you are serious. I don't enjoy gathering the funds and skillpoints, and neither do a lot of people. I do, however, enjoy doing quests for skills (the first time I acquire them.).

Do you get the difference? Doing something enjoyable that requires time and work to get a reward is acceptable. Doing something mindless, like farming, is not fun in the slightest. The amount of time required to do so matters not, it's the fact that time IS required doing something I don't enjoy.

Yes to the first, no to the second. You desire character development. You desire time spent doing something mindless to reward you with a more powerful character. I desire my ability to play better to reward me with a more powerful character.

Refund Points were removed. The grind, or character development that you like to call it, was a boring and repetitive process that was pointless. It limited how you could use that specific character due to how much time you had spent, not because of how good a player you are. Most of the same arguments were issued then as well. Can you please explain to me the differences between refund points and access to unlocked skills? Realism? Character to character vs an aspect of a single character?

The fun in GW is primarily using your character and changing your character as you see fit.

It's sad to see the grind monkeys controlling this game. And it's sad to see anet catering to them in Guild wars 2 with the high level cap. This could have been an awesome game if it werent for the click junkies who actually like the mindless grind. I completely agree that Pve won't improve as long as people are so close minded. But I guess if the only thrill in your life is the sense of accomplishment through grind then who can blame them?

Nothing wrong with grind monkeys

EVERY game should have a reward for people who put their time into it. Sure it shouldn't be anything to overwhelming that destroys casual gamers but self recognition is always wanted. Some people don't get noticed for how hard they work in life, GW atleast gives those people chances to redeem themselves.

On the other hand some people have other priorities, school,work,clubs,kids, penguin worship....

so they shouldn't be forgotten

Then theres lazy people, they are the most important because they come into games like waves, and leave it like a hurricane. Though when they enjoy something they become addicts.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth, because i dont appreciate it and i bite. And I draw blood when i bite.

I do desire character development. This is true.

Time spent vs Player ability. This is the mantra of GW. And it is true.

But your ability to play better does not reward you anything physically inside the game.

This is proven by PvP. Everyone has access to the same skills, same weapons, same classes, etc. Its an even playing field.

However, being a better player does give you the advantage of KNOWLEDGE.

A newbie player in PvP doesn't know the builds, doesn't know teamwork, etc and will get slaughtered by a superior player, even if they have identical equipment.

This is applicable in PvE as well.

A veteran player will burn through the game even with a newbie character with zero acquired skills vs a Newbie player with a newbie character.

The advantage belongs to the player who knows more and this is a balanced advantage, since this advantage is the player itself and nothing to do with equipment or skills. Because it is a balanced playing field, your knowledge can overcome another player because they wont have superior equipment or skills to bolster their weak playing ability.

That point shows how Heros having access to unlocked skills, and being able to buy unlocked skills immediately is imbalanced.

Well first of. Refund points were exploitable since you could use it in explorable areas. I remember my guildmate had this monk farming variation that involved swapping head pieces and reseting attributes after casting the maintainable enchantments and then switching attibutes towards smiting.

This alone would be reason enough to change the system.

The new system is much less restrictive, but also less immersive, and i actually don't like it too much, even if it is convenient. I would much rather prefer a NPC to reset attributes than have it built into the GUI.


Character development can equal grind. This is arguable. Ive shown that a character can be developed without deviating from the primary storyline, so it would be zero grind. Further development outside that, would equal grind.

Some players do enjoy it, because it does give a sense of satisfaction for "work" or time spent. It is only a grind if you find it to be a grind.

Character development is a natural progression in the game as you play through it. If you play through the game naturally.

As for refund points vs unlocked skills.

Refund points were a system that was exploitable, didn't make sense in the RPG sense, and most important of all IMBALANCED. It gave advantage to players who could farm lots and lots of XP. A player with superior playing skill but not enough XP is disadvantaged.

The skill system is imbalanced as well presently. It gives advantage to players who have played repeatedly, and gives them access to many many skills early on, vs those who have unlocked few.

You know. Now that you point it out....the system DOES need to be changed.

The skill system should reward the actual player's skill level, not how many skills youve unlocked (which is time spent ie: grind).

Therefore, i propose that the skill trainers should no longer sell skills you've unlocked, on basis that it gives advantag to players who grinded to unlock skills.

Me, as a veteran player, should be able to start a brand new account, and not be disadvantaged vs olders accounts who have spent more time in the game. This will equalize the playing field for new characters and show that only the player's skill matters and not the character's skill pool.

Lyra that is not all accurate.

The skill pool reflects your skill.

Your not taking on waves of monsters in pve with no skills, thinking that your skill will save you I hope -_-.

However A-net's original idea, dont argue please people and whine, but they original idea from my knowledge was to finish pve and go into pvp. Now some of us want to make pvp chars but we want to do pve first. It's not exactly rushing for everyone but more of a new perspective into the game. My assassin had a blast going into low level areas and just watching me 1 hit everything with auto attacks....felt like a god, however that wont be the case since even at a lower level without the attribute points you wont do much damage.

I proposed a discount crystal that can only be obtained after beating the game, you can give it to your other new characters and get those skills you worked for and payed thousands for. Perhaps to balance it out make 3/4 different crystals (1 for eye of north) and have each crystal only work at the skill trainer in that continent.

Im not talking about the skill bar.

When i say skill pool, im talking about all the skills available to your character.

Having a large amount of skills available to the character does not prove that a player is a good player or skilled.

All it proves is that the character has a lot of skills. Gathering all these skills takes a lot of time, and wouldn't giving players access to these skills on their new characters be in essence giving people an advantage for grinding? Completely opposite of what Guild Wars is about. Player Skill > Time spent.

I put them there to see which ones you spit out.

As do I.

Also agreed.

Oh my.. you are taking knowledge of something and calling it skill.
I know the game through and through. I know the popular builds. I've been playing since release.

There are people that have just started the game and can easily kick my bum. I'm honestly a bad player. Having time invested in the game has given me knowledge that most people just starting wouldn't have, but implementing that knowledge is totally different than simply possessing it.

How so? Please, draw it out for me in the most simplistic of terms.

True, but it's not the reason the community complained.

Immersion in an RPG is usually an important factor, but in GW it's designed in a completely different manner than your traditional RPG. Kinda off-topic in a way, but mind my asking why you don't play WoW, FFXI, or something similar? What has kept you around GW so long?

The only part of GW I truly enjoy is their immense skill system, so primarily everything outside of RA from my point of view is considered grind.

90% of the game is against this quote. I'm wanting them to take it to the full 100% regarding everything that actually affects how well your character can perform.

Perhaps they should do my view on the skill sytem in Hard Mode, and your view on the system in normal mode? I'm fine with comming to an agreement, but I'd also like to see it all from your point of view since you are so persistant about it. I've rather enjoyed the discussion thus far..

I really like your twisting it to the view you have, but I sadly agree with you in a way. Instead of taking the half turn they did away and started from ground zero again, I'd prefer them to do the full 360.

I think skill trainers should have ALL non-elite skills, and quests that give skills should let you select which ones to unlock.

Very nice, and very well done. I am truly impressed.

You are taking the view that everyone shouldn't have any skills at all, while I am saying they should have access to all of them.

I would prefer: I think skill trainers should have ALL non-elite skills, and quests that give skills should let you select which ones to unlock.

That way, we'd have our imaginations to use as we saw fit instead of your suggestion of re-grinding for everything every new character (which will still result in time spent being more valuable than your ability to play.

I'll have to disagree. Knowledge is acquired from practice.

You can read about a build. But you don't really know it until you try it out.

Until you know through application, thats not knowledge, thats more like simply information (yikes! semantic argument run!) and not at all real knowledge/wisdom.

Of the newer MMORPGs, ive played: WoW, DDO, Phantasy Star Universe and just about every free MMORPG (Flyff, 9 Dragons, etc).

I choose Guild Wars, because:

1. I work 40+ hours a week. Paying money to play isn't cost effective.
2. Other MMOs do not give you the option to "not grind". Everything in the game ultimately is designed to build stronger and stronger and more powerful characters and once you reach the end cap, theres really nothing left to do. Don't even get me started on PvP.....Guild Wars PvP destroys everything else.
3. My friends. I love my friends. We play GW. So I play GW.

I dont understand this too much, please explain?

I wouldn't have continued if it wasn't an enjoyable discussion.

Ah this is where to come to agree to disagree now. You understand my position and i understand yours.

If you mean all skill trainers will sell you all the non-elite skills, regardless of what you unlocked (Like the skill trainer at Ember Light Camp..) then i would definitely agree, since this would apply to ALL players, regardless of how much of the game they have played.

Quest rewarding us with chosen skills would be nice as well. I think that fits with my idea of Battle Commendations/Luxon Totems/etc. being accepted by skill trainers.

The point of view i chose was an extreme one to show that the perspective of "Skill should be rewarded, not time spent", which seems to be the basis of your argument, can be used to fuel the point of view opposite to yours.

In reality, i think that would be silly, and just a bit too harsh. I think a compromise is a much better solution.

The only real bad thing here is that each time you go through the game, you'd still be repeating boring quests and what-not.. but if you could actually choose how your character develops by doing whatever quests you enjoy and skipping the ones you don't.....

As long as there was a discount, no gold requirement at all, or a discount and no skill point required for unlocked skills... I think it'd work out well. Granted, if I'd unlocked it before, I could unlock it faster a second or third time through, but there would still be a necessity to do something first so you don't just have hundreds of skills at your disposal right away.

I also think that ascension should do something more for you than what it does currently, since changing secondaries becomes available, it's borderline stupid to even use that functionality. It'd be easier, if you had the character slot, to just start a new character over in most cases.

I just dislike having to repeat stuff. If skills were truly balanced, it wouldn't matter if you had X skill in pre or Y skill. Most PvP players always say that skills need to be balanced around GvG, but I also think that mobs should be balanced around that balance as well.

I can't believe this is still going on. It comes down to "I want 50 skills NOW, and I want it free". If that's what you want then at least be honest about it and say it straight up. I don't agree with just giving everyone everything for free, since then there's no point to playing. But that's my opinion. But if that is what you want, then at least admit it. I'd at least have some respect for that. I'd still think you were lazy, but at least I'd respect you for being upfront.

Short of prophecies, you get 3 skill points a mission and plenty from quests. This is on top of hero points and points from leveling up. If you actually play, rather than want to buy like 20 skills at once, I don't know how this isn't enough. And as for the tired old anti cookie cutter argument. I won't even go into how you shouldn't use cookie cutter as bad. You want to experiment? Thats's good. But can you honestly tell me that you got some bright flash for a build and suddenly needed 20 skills at once? Considering you only carry 8 skills at a time. And one slot is usually locked out for a res. Yeah, as you go on you want to pick up plenty of skills. But that's over time. Not at once, unless you suddenly just have to have that perfect farming build you just saw. Playing normally? You play, get maybe a point from level up and maybe 3 from the last mission. Oh gosh, 4 skills points I can buy skills to experiment with. And if you're just tweaking builds, well, how often do you swap out all 8 skills unless you're farming. If you say you need it for pve, well, you should have easily amassed all the skills for the builds you need OVER time. So, your lvl3 in kamadan can't get all the skills for every build you've ever run? Cry me a river. I've played through all 3 campaigns and started plenty of new characters. And guess what, if you actually play through pve rather than just farm, I've never not had enough skills. And if someone's so anal they won't let you party unless your skills are just so? You're better off without them. All they want is a hero, not a adventuring buddy. Some places, namely the elite farming areas, are pretty strict on builds. But hey, you want to farm, put in some time. You'll soon find you got more skill points and money then you know what to do with. But else where? Never seen a party kick someone if they had some variations. Especially if you can actually tell them why you're running what you are if they ask. You do talk, right?

As for gold, you don't have to farm the UW 24/7 to afford this. They have since capped costs at 1 plat. Ok, if you set out to buy 20 skills at once, then yeah, maybe its expensive. But if you actually PLAY, even say an hour or so, even not farming, just selling WHITES and picking up the little piles of gold, you'll find yourself pulling in at least 2-3k. So you can't buy 20 skills per hour? You'll have to either settle for getting 2-3 at a time or play more? Not seeing how this is unfair. And if you got nightfall, they practically hand you free plat if you can be bothered to go get it. And hero skill trainers are free.

Can't get the skills where you want? But I'm in kamadan, the first city ever, and I can't get ALL my skills from the trainer? Yeah, so? And you can actually get all the skills if you can be bothered too. Unlocks from pvp balth faction are available from all skill trainers. But wait, you HATE pvp. Why should you have to pvp to unlock a skill, right? Well, lucky for you then. Go do the basic pvp training arena's quest from the isles of the nameless. Four fights against 4 AI monkeys that even a blind, one armed ape could pwn. Pretend its a pve mob of 4 who drop no loot. You're limited to 2k a day from this I think, but it takes like 10 minutes to get the 2k. Thats like 2 skills unlocked and available from any trainer per day. If you only play for an hour, that's 10 minutes gone and 50 minutes to make 2k. And you can have your uber build right at lvl3. Hardly grind. Unless you think killing things and taking there stuff is grind, in which case you're stuffed. Since that is pretty much the essence of pve.

Well, except for elites, but considering they're elite, well. If you care about balance at all, I don't even need to explain how having all elites available right from the start would break the game. Low attributes? So what? Plenty of elites are still effective at no points, and some are unlinked. How would that work? Just break pve fullstop.

And as for the "my other guys unlocked this so all my characters from now on should get it"? Well, in pvp, you do since that's account based.. But in pve? That's CHARACTER based. Some were going on about being an artist and changing to a fireman. Yes, you still got all those arts skills you LEARNED. YOU. Your character is a W/Mo for example. You decide you want to become a W/E. So you change. If you change back, you still got all the Mo skills you learned with that character. Should you now also get all the skills for an ele you learned from a DIFFERENT character? No. Because YOU haven't LEARNED it. I'm an artist. I change to a fireman. My friend (who is NOT me) is a fireman. I still have my arts skills, but does this mean that I should have all the fireman skills my friend has before I've gone through basic training or put in the time to learn the new fireman skills? I mean, I wish. My uncles a doctor. I'd love it if I could now call myself a doctor without actually going to uni and then the internship it all. But is this ever gonna happen? I'd say no.

As for it being boring repeating it for other characters, well, no one said you have to do every quest everytime. I did every quest through with my main, but I CHOSE to skip most sidequests with my later characters. Why? Do I want to fed-ex all over kaineng? No. SO I chose not to do it. You can choose not to do it too. But that doesn't give us the right to demand the quest reward when we chose not to do the quest. It's almost like leeching in FA. Oh, I don't want to actually play FA, but I want to get the rewards anyway. Its a sick attitude, and the worse thing is that I'm seeing it more and more as time goes on. What happened to the old "if you want something, then earn it". If you want it, work for it, else go without. So it takes you a week to get 8 skills playing only a few hours per week. So what. You get them all the same, the only difference is that you don't get it given to you right from the start. Anyway, sorry for the rant, just getting sick of leechers and people who are too lazy to put in the effort to get what they want.

Wow. Your post was long. Yet it said absolutely nothing and was nothing more than just a rant with a few personal attacks mixed in.

What do leechers have to do with all this by the way? And Im sick and tired of the "ur just lazy" arguments. Any improvement can be seen as "lazy" you know.

Lets not have an auction house because you're too lazy to sit there for hours spamming! Or let's take out the option to map travel because people are getting too lazy to walk to areas. Or let's not have more storage because you're too lazy to get a job and buy an extra character slot.

So please stop with the stupid "ur too lazy" flames. When your arguments consists of "ur too lazy to farm" then doesnt that tell you that something is wrong? Is this what the game is about? Farming?

Why should I stop with the "too lazy" argument. We unlock all skills fro all characters. So why not all armour with all characters? Why not all runes with all characters? I found and unlocked a sup vigor with one character, why can't all my characters have it? After all I found it once, why do I have to find or buy it again? And same with all weapons and mods. So after you have been handed everything, what's left to do? Well pvp, but I doubt many pver's will actually go there. So tell me what will you do in pve? Watch cutscenes? Is that what you want pve to become? Forget any character developement at all? You can make your character just like pvp, unlocks are universal. Why don't we just scrap pve, make an AI arena with maps from all pve zones and fill it with dumb AI mobs. Who drop no treasure since you already have all you need so money and items become pointless. It sounds good and a great shortcut, but tell me how long do you thing pve is going to last if you get nothing for it? Take away killing random monsters and taking their loot, whats left? All the stuff you mentioned is for convenience, but this? This opens the door for all unlocks. That's not convenience. That kills pve full stop. Pve is about the items, about skills for your character. After you have all your gear, runes and skills, tell me what's left to do in pve?

Kazjun, you are committing one of the world's most popular argumentative cheats: the straw man. That's when you refute a point that nobody made, and then act as though you refuted a point that was made.

We just need to delete realists from the game. End of problem.


Srsly.


DELTREE *.NUB


Character progression? PSHAWWW!

Your character can bloody well spend its time progressing through the story line. Doing extra quests and LARPING in LA.

And what about time spent?

NOT giving unlocks is blatantly telling pvp players that their time would be better spent in pve. Atleast that way when they want to customize a character with weapon and armor skins they already have the skills. :/


What about the pvp unlock packs??!?! No PvE ppl buy them...

If anet wanted to actually make some money, they would implement this as an incentive to sell those pvp packs....


From top to bottom every single "role player" has killed what this game could have been with idea's that are now roughly a decade old. Get over it, character progression != character acquisition.

There was a time where Guild Wars a MMORPG, then before they even let it loose they turned it into a CORPG. Now please let's try to keep the RP part. I wouldn'T like to have just a COG. Hope fully GWEN seem like its going in the right direction...

Hmmm... I like the concept, they would need to make ascension harder than faction/NF though. Otherwise, yes elites should not be obtainable that way.

So the point isn't that you don't want to put time in? Make it easier? Sounds good don't it. But tell me, for every pro argument, take out skills and put in runes/insignias/inscription. Works doesn't it? SO if you did this for skills, why shouldn't you do it for everything else?

Don't just look at the short term, cause if this gets in, how long before people bring this up for runes/mods/weapon skins/etc? Then what? Character creation becomes like pvp? How long do you think pve will last after they make pve account based rather than character based? And you get all unlocks. Can you say that after you've completed the campaign once and done all the leftover quests, that you're doing anything except getting skills and items? Or money to get skills and items. Give a player all that, and he'll be happy. Sure. But after, when he's logged into his pve character and there's nothing left to do? What then? Keeping people coming back to kill monsters so they can trick out their character's is all that's left in pve. Take that out and you may as well just shut down pve. Can you say that I'm wrong on that?