Petition: Soul Reaping

Well, Master of Whispers never seemed to have a problem with energy. I'm not going to say either way, since I haven't actually played my Necro yet, but if a Hero can manage energy almost exactly the same as he did before, casting the same spells (Minions, even Heal Area which he spams too much), then maybe people need to rethink their strategy of casting?

first off im not suprised i run out of nrg, i was running it effectively with out problems especially since when a minion of mine died i could collect nrg off it. 2 i can still use it just takes slightly longer. you didn't need nrg skills before cause we hardly have any and sr took the place of those skills. and both of those sigs are nf only i started as a factions necro then moved on, what about those that don't have nf, and some1 said use consume corpse why would you use that. in situations where bodies are hard to find it'd be a waste of a corpse. some1 else said use mesmer skills, all mm know the true build for a mm is n/mo for the use of healing circle to help mantain minions especially while waiting for other pple to do their things in mishes or waiting for waves of nmes ect ect... and for self heals as mm is a death magic build and not blood. and besides tell me why sr needs a nerf when it is mainly used for mm which is 90% of the time+ used for pve need a nerf? and if it does need a nerf they could adjust it. its a lil too harsh, mean at least recycle the nrg from your own minions dying. or i like the idea of it like that for pvp and stay the way it was for pve. and lastly of all the mm builds i've seen i've yet to see one that has any nrg management skills. i mean if its not going to be changed a death/blood/curse attunement should be added like eles or something of the nature or more sigs. the fact is of the skill list in any 1 campaign if that person has just that one there is hardly anything really useful for nrg management for an mm other than sr

so... soul reaping takes 5 second to get the energy from the dead monsters. gailey gray said: "for balance". now, what balance? they never nerfed soul reaping since the release of first gw and now this?

i did try MM, SS, and some blood builds. i realize during the critical moments, not enough energy. signet of lost souls do help, but not quite. most of necro builds rely on soul reaping attribute and some of those builds are quite useless now.

maybe gailey gray was talking about overall balance of all classes in GW, but not when you look at necro skills. fine, 5 second, i can deal with it, but i reckon make minions live longer or perhaps lower the cost of curse skills? then make 5 second delay on soul reaping make sense. they even raise the reckless haste to 15 energy cost. yes, they lowered the energy cost on 2 minions but not all. bone fiends still need 25 to cast. i can't really say this new nerf on soul reaping is "balance" when i look at necro skills.

whoever came up with this idea really need to reconsider. if and hopefully Anet is reading this, either take off 5 second delay on soul reaping or if you think this idea is unchangable, then lower the cost of energy on skills!
then i can call this "balance"

guys and gals, how do you explain this going on for so long? how long has GW been up and running? why did they change it now? skill balancing does really only effect PvP, which is more or less controlled by arrogant players in the ranked guilds (and yes they are arrogant, i saw a few spamming all chat selling guild invites for 100k a month, not the best way to get good players, anyone can make 100k a month), and lets just say all those guilds had max ppl, 100, that still makes them the minority. so why is it that the minority affects the majority? coz everyone knows minorities whine and complain endlessly until the get what they want. simple as that. and soz if that sounds racist but its unfortunately the way it is...

Funny how my PvE SS necro can't do that. I only gain +6 energy every 5 seconds and with RH costing an extra 5e this nerf is a piss take. I'm always having to wait for my energy to build up now. Hoping that a monster dies every 5 seconds. It's like playing my mesmer ffs

Nobody can deny that PvE got the shitty end of this stick! All it needed was zero energy gain from spirits.

To all those who are bashing the necro's as 'lower mages', 'people who need to learn how to play/manage their energy', and other nice names:

I'd like to see how you would react would it have been your primary attribute.

To all the others:
Thanks for discussing this with us.

Good day.

good point make minions last longer, or raise the lvl of them so they don't get messed up in battle so ez

Off topic: They can nerf strength and spawning power all they want, it will not make a difference.

On topic: I played my necro, and managing energy is ALL it comes down to, it just seems people are unable to adjust their builds at all, which is sad really, since this game has gone through a good deal of skill balances, AI updates etc. and the only people that are complaining about the SR nerf now are the people who refuse to change their builds or tactics to adapt. The people that have adapted are having NO problems with energy, so it is pretty obvious the nerf is not that big of a deal.

Just make spirit and minions doesn't trigger soul reaping. and we will be fine. stupid spirit way.. lol

That is because your builds were bad.
It's like saying "I inherited lots of money and sat on my ass doing nothing for years. Now that the money is gone, life is unfair and I can't do anything anymore!". I hope you understand why what you just said is absolutely retarded.

The conceptual design of necros is different than what you people think. Necros are not supposed to be able to spam 15-25 energy skills on recharge, and soul reaping is (mathematically) an insane passive energy management attribute, superior to all other forms of energy management in the game.
We can all agree that the elementalist, by design, should be able to spam the most energy intensive spells in the game. Yet, all elementalist builds usually have an attunement and a glyph of lesser energy, and sometime even an elite energy management skill to boot. Don't forget that elementalists usually have to deal with skills that cause exhaustion, and exhaustion from one skill takes 30 seconds to make up.
Elementalists also have to put up with the AoE scatter to a much more serious degree than SS necros.
Common PvE necros are running bars with an insane amount of high energy spells, and are able to spam them on recharge due to their broken attribute.

Let's do the math and calculate how much energy necros actually get if they trigger soul reaping every 5 seconds.
With 10 in soul reaping, triggering soul reaping every 5 seconds means that you have an average gain of 2 energy per second. This is the equivalent of 6 EXTRA energy regen. This is post nerf.
Let's say you were triggering soul reaping every 3 seconds before (which you should have if you are complaining). 10 energy every 3 seconds is equal to a bit more than 3 energy every second, which is the equivalent of 10 EXTRA energy regen.
Getting 10 EXTRA natural regen for an investment of 10 in soul reaping is imbalanced. Even 6 extra natural regen is still imbalanced.
To get the same effect as an ele, you have to invest a lot into energy management, and you have to run an elite skill (Ether prodigy), which happens to cause exhaustion and do damage when it ends. This also limits the enchantments you can cast.
So comparatively, eles have less room in their skill bars and a tied up elite, less attribute points, have to deal with exhaustion and damage, and have higher energy nukes. All this and they STILL cannot spam 25 energy skills like a necromancer can, because eventually the exhaustion will be too severe.
Necromancers get this free natural regen passively, without doing anything.

In response to the soul reaping nerf, the energy for some necro spells has been lowered. Before the nerf, minions were very expensive (in terms of energy) because you had to pay a "soul reaping tax" to cast them. Eventually, when this minion dies, you get your energy back. In the meantime, this one minion helped you kill dozens of foes and partially contributed to the energy these foes gave you.
Now, because the soul reaping will trigger less than it did before, the soul reaping tax has been lowered, and some of those energy intensive skills have been made much more sensible.

I hope this helps you understand why soul reaping was (and still is) the best energy management, and why it needed to be toned down.

EDIT: To all you childish people bashing each others profession and defending your primary attribute, please remember that you are not necros, you are players. You use your necromancer to accomplish a goal, be it in PvE or PvP. Also, if your entire guildwars experience consists of playing a necro in PvE, then you do not have enough perspective to judge whether something is balanced or overpowered compared to other professions. To the person saying "don't bash us as lower mages who need to learn to manage our energy", keep in mind that everyone else has to learn to manage their energy, and that making good use of your energy is all part of being a caster (and everything else xD) in guildwars.
Thank you and good day.

I was disappointed when I saw this update. They could have eliminated energy gain from minions or spirits to help balance it in pvp without it really affecting pve. The idea of increasing minion's life span sounds good though, since it wouldn't really affect PvP negatively at all since depending on where in PvP you're playing, you're not expecting to live long anyways so a buff to minion lifespan wouldn't help in pvp but would help in PvE.

I just ran my mm through part of the Jade Sea area to cap a skill. I didn't really see too much of a difference. Mind you in neither map I ended up building up much of an army before I zoned or capped the skill I wanted so a full mission or map of mming would be in order to see how it affects overall.

The decrease to energy for Bone Horror and Vamp Horror sort of balances it out though I rarely use Vamp Horror and Bone Horror I only use when I'm recycling minions or waiting for Shambling to recharge. Somehow I doubt the nerf of SR will greatly affect my minion build. Minions still give off energy when dying. I'm more concerned how my blood and curses builds will be affected especially Curses line skills. I just hope it doesn't ruin my Orders build...

Load up your favorite build - MM, SS, SV...you name it, and step out into any zone where energy management will be an issue - say somewhere on the other side of the Vortex in NF, The Gate of Secrets, for example - even though there are many places in all three chapters where players can suffer from energy-related environmental effects.

See how far you get there casting skills.

The first three skills on my skillbar when I'm playing SS (forget trying to Arcane Echo that now) use 15 energy each, thanks to the nerf. In a zone where I'm struggling for energy in the first place, I am now pretty much having to wait for any target to get below 50% so I can hit them with my Signet of Lost Souls. If I'm heavy on Blood and Curses, that doesn't give me many points in SR (6 or 7)anyway, so SoLS returns a mere 5 energy on most of my builds.

Even in areas where there aren't energy-related environmental effects, my regular builds now suffer from lack of energy - and it's not because of poor energy management - it's that the skills I use most often in PvE have been nerfed and my Soul Reaping has been tampered with to the point that I have to wait for my energy to come back, or for more targets to die in a timely manner so that I can get enough energy to move on to another target.

If I have the misfortune to be on a team that kills quickly, I might be lucky to get an SR boost twice during a battle, and manage to spam my hexes on one target, maybe two, for the whole battle. Even with 7 in SR, that's not much of a benefit.

For the record, I have been using SoLS since NF was released; and Reaper's Mark has been the elite on my MM skillbar since I capped it.

For many builds, however, the only viable option to get any energy at all is going with SoLS; Consume Corpse, Offering of Blood (with its tasty little built-in nerf), and Reaper's Mark just aren't alternatives.

Instead of changing SR to the point where Necromancers are nearly crippled in their builds, why not remove the energy gained from spirits dying? If, indeed, that was the issue at hand - sprits dying in PvP*. Ritualist spirits weren't around in the beginning, and the few Ranger spirits that were to be found in PvE and PvP were no big deal for necros where energy gain was concerned.

I'd much rather have my SR working like it used to and not gain energy from spirits then be hamstrung like I am now.



*I'm a huge fan of PvP, but I also enjoy PvE. Thanks to the SR nerf, though, I think it's time to move on to other toons, because playing a necro just isn't as enjoyable as it used to be.

SR was changed because of spirit spamming builds wasn't it? So why not follow the above suggestion so pve isn't affected...

edit: argh been mentioned several times already, but ah well repetition is useful in making a point.

Go complain somewhere else it was nerfed for PvP reasons because people were abusing it deal with it.

Edit: Just because you can't manage minions doesn't mean that soul reaping or the other PSA needs to be changed just take something for energy management such as [skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill] or put more points into soul reaping. Also this game is getting worse and worse because of complainers who complain about stuff such as this or how overpowered skills are deal with it and if ANET thinks its to powerful they will come in with the nerf bat. If you can't handle playing with different skill sets like how all the assassins in Random Arenas use [skill]Shadow Prison[/skill] as their elite and I run [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] I suggest you play something else.

/endrant

why would PvP players complain about farming nerfs? farming has nothing to do with pvp really. soul reaping affects the whole class

Have people just completely disregarded my post?
Five minutes after I post I see someone posting that he is running into energy management issues in "areas where you suffer energy-related environmental effects" and he cannot cast all his 15 energy spells.
Seriously people, get a clue before complaining about something you barely understand.
Welcome to reality?

hmm acualy the guys at anet is pretty smart...
its the lil apes that work at anal-net,the ones in charge of skill "updates"

Someone who gets it <3.

Scrub, I would like to see you attempt to balance PvP.

Barely understand? No I understand quite well what is going on here. However, I refuse to stoop to your level in my response. It is quite possible that I was in the middle of writing my post when you posted yours, you know....

Oh, and I'm not a 'he'.

Edited to respond to Mendes' earlier post:

"With 10 in soul reaping, triggering soul reaping every 5 seconds means that you have an average gain of 2 energy per second. This is the equivalent of 6 EXTRA energy regen. This is post nerf"

I don't know many PvE necros who have 10 in SR. That's a luxury that many builds simply cannot afford.

/signed.

I'm not going to bother justifying it.
Everyone else who has done so just triggers a flame-fest... primarily by the PvPers...

Lets just say I prefer the old Soul Reaping to the new and leave it at that.

You lie, girls don't play video games (NOTE: this is a joke).

I have read your post (and disagree with it) and instead of actually enticing me into a debate you gave me a "no comment".
My point is, you are supposed to run into energy problems as a caster, unless you invest a lot into energy management. This can mean going /E just to take Glyph of Lesser energy (aswell as signet of lost souls), or /Mes to take some inspiration energy management.
The harsh reality is that soul reaping is still (mathematically) a very powerful passive primary attribute, superior to anything else. Managing energy should be the hardest thing for a caster, and it is only natural that you have to change your build when you uber energy management becomes just an imba energy management.
The necro was never meant to be such an energy consuming damage dealer, just a powerfull hex bot and/or support role.
EDIT: about the whole "you can't afford 10 points in soul reaping" argument, replace 10 with 8, 2 with 1.6, and 6 with 5. Still extremely imbalanced.
Also, this ties into the whole casters have to make room and invest heavily into energy management. This is true for every other caster in guildwars, you have to sacrifice in order to get the most out of your bar. Take your blood/death down one point, and your curse/whatever down another, and put the remaining attribute points in soul reaping, and it will be all good.
Remember, eles have to run a glyph and a fire attunement, sometimes even elite energy management, and they are (conceptually) meant to be the energy consuming damage dealers.

e-flamefest != discussion.
Not justifying something you are trying to prove makes your point completely moot in the real world.

The energy consuming bit was supposed to be the Mesmer's role, and look what happened to that! Come on necro fans, this nerf was much needed. You have powerful skills at your disposal, the supply shouldn't be just as equal.

Why does everyone try to start a petition to get things through, it's no different to a thread without it. You have no rights to force the game to change even when you don't even own it... hello>?

Mendes' post wins this thread. Seriously, gg Mendes.
I would like to point out that PvP balance is based around equality. If something is imbalanced, that equality is gone.
PvE is based around the fact that you are stronger than the monsters. A slight imbalance is not a problem, because that fact is still true: you are stronger than the monsters because hey, the monsters aren't going to adapt their builds in response to a nerf,

I'm also amazed that people seem to think that Minion Masters are (were) not overpowered in PvE. Seriously people, do the math. Think of how many combined DPS your minions deal, and compare this to any other build. The minion master build will outperform any other build almost without a downside.

But that's not even important, because like I said, PvP balance > PvE balance.
Also, if you do not actually play PvP, don't comment on PvP. The 'lern2counter'-argument is stupid, and anyone with a clue about PvP can tell you why.
Secondly, Soul Reaping abuse is very hard to counter. That is because it's not a limited set of skills, no, you can use almost any skill that was supposed to be balanced by its energy cost and make it overpowered. SB/RI hexes were the most popular form of SR abuse, but certainly not the only possible one. N/E's spamming Searing Flames under QZ without ever worrying about energy could have been there too.
The fact is, unlimited or nigh unlimited energy is overpowered no matter what. It's been there a few times, in the form of Ether Renewal, Energizing Finale and now in the form of Soul Reaping with Spirits.
Soul Reaping abuse has occured before, and so far it's always been solved with bandaids. (nerfing the skills that triggered the overpowered mechanic instead of nerfing the overpowered mechanic) Arenanet has finally dared to nerf the mechanic, and I applaude them for that. Good Game Arenanet.

That's too stupid. Soul reaping is there to gain energy everytime a monster dies. *sigh I guess people just wish to make the game bad. I for one am not too worried about necromancers and soul reaping. IE. sig of lost souls.

Still advancements and nerfs are consistant depending on how much the PVP players complain. Also these nerfs are being designed for the NEW GW's game. Won't go into that though. Pretty much that.

sig of lost souls is brilliant pve nrg management for necros whats wrong with taking it, you dont even need to consume a corpse, it requires no demanded secondary and its in the line that you would have high specs in anyway.. so you need to push the TAB key to find things to gain energy from i think you can handle it ^^ this nerf just means you need a more active role in playing not just watch for when the skills have recharged.

That would make it realistically useless in PvP.

I have a Necro in PvE and he has an SS build, a BB build, and an MM build. I tried them all last night and had no problems with energy. Why? because I have energy management skills. I didn't have em before because Soul Reaping was WAY overpowered. Now that it is balanced, I had to tweek my builds. No big deal for me, I like a new challenge, that's the point of playing a game, to be challenged. Truth is, I was getting bored with my Necro before this update. My main build was MM(with 83 energy dual 15/-1 mods, no healing prayers, used WoB to keep em alive longer) and let's face it, before this update, MM's never had a problem with energy. I only really ran BB or SS in planned Guild endeavors(i.e. Urgoz, the Deep, SF, UW, certain missions etc.) and even then, never had energy problems.

good update Anet

I totally agree here and its sickening to see these snobby pvp freaks here defending this nerf that Anerf have given us in PvE and all becuase they get ubber pawned in PvP as if we cared in PvE and the worst whinner is this gods gift to pvp Lord Mendes who is full of himself he could fill the whole universe.

One thing is balancing this a complete draconian nerf which is so typical of the bored anerf employee who is doing the nerfs.

Nerf soul reaping in pvp where most of the people who play it are automated freaks of perfections and leave us pve cavemen as we were happy without disturbing the Diety of the prestigiouis PvP excelencies.

His posts were winning this thread almost before it began...

In time will people will realize that a necro shouldn't be free to spam 10-15e skills with absolutely no regard for there energy pool. They also might stop taking Arcane Echo with everything they do. There were definatly better ways they could've sorted this stat out... i really can't see how this was 1 of the best choices though.

Ok... am i doing something wrong. From what i've seen running 10 in SR works perfectly with a 3rd attribute line. Things like Aegis, Mystic Regen or Heal Area... or things from your own profession, ie Blood magic/Curses assist spells.

Then again i usually have a sup soul reaping and take along Sig of Lost Souls anyway, you can't get energy till things are dead, and if your outa energy you can't kill things. If there isn't a single enemy near you thats below 50% health in PvE your team is doing something wrong.

Want PvE? Go play WoW noob just because you have to take out one skill to bring Signet of Lost Souls (great for energy) or something else cry me a river. Have you noticed that most of the changes ANET made was for PvP purposes not for the PvE'rs oh well you have a less powerful build don't hear me complaining to change Shadow Prison back to 5 energy do you?

Actually, I kinda like it. It would be nice for MM to be taken seriously. Now that it's harder to manage energy, being a MM will take skill.

I'm the one whining?
I have provided nothing but facts with mathematical points to back them up, and YOU are calling me a whiner?
Re-read your post, google the definition of whiner, and then tell me who the bigger whiner is.

Can we get some ice for this burn on the PvEr?

You know f****** what, ANET doesnt just sit around a table and go "ZOMG, HOW SHALL WE NERF TEH GAME NOW?, WE DONT LIKE PEOPLE HAVING FUN!!!!!!11" they make there decisions based on what they think is fair and needed.

Deal with it and move on.

Nerf Strength - oh no? All my builds suck now? Warriors are worthless? Not likely.
Nerf Expertise - actually, yes please. Make it only apply to ranger skills. Rangers would not suck, and the ones that complain about this aren't using a ranger as a ranger.
Nerf Divine Favor - this may suck, but with the rise of LoD monks everywhere, I don't see this being that big of a deal.

Honestly people, Soul Reaping was overpowered. Necros had limitless energy, especially with spirits and minions. I agree that the "fix" to SR should have been that "it doesn't trigger on minions or spirits," but this 5 second lag is not that big of deal. The major outlay of necro energy is at the beginning of the battle. Once everything is half-dead, is energy that important anymore? Hell, my necro is usually sitting back at full energy before the battle is half over, and by the time it is over, Soul Reaping has provided me with about 40 energy that I don't even need!
All I can say is welcome to the ever-changing world of Online Gaming. You have to learn to work with what you have, just like in life. If you can't adapt in a video game, I really see life being a challenge for you.

1: Fast Casting is already inferior in comparison to the other primary attributes.
2: Soul Reaping was an innate form of continuously supplied energy. The fact that things die in both PvE and PvP becomes irrelevant for a Necro, as they will always gain energy. Other classes have to invest into specific skills with regards to better manage their energy
3: Your rapport states and proves nothing.

I know this is irrelevant, but spelling, sentencing and making sense can get your post some miles... If you're sick, please refrain from posting and get yourself a glass of water.

The nerf was taken in perspective of both elements of play. When you are done feeling sick, please re-read Mendes' posts and you should find references to PvE as well as PvP imbalances in regards to Soul Reaping.

I refrained from hitting 'submit reply' on my earlier post simply because I didn't want this to become a flame war - or more of one that it already appears to be.

Part of my point in my previous post - which I didn't state, but should have - was in those zones past the Vortex that I pointed out as being energy intensive, there are usually some big baddies to fight...lvl 28 enemies, for example, which usually require a whole lot more application of hexes (if you're going that route) to kill. If you're low on energy due to the environmental effects, and you're playing an SS build that utilizes SS and Reckless Haste, you're in a bad place simply because you can't reapply those skills often enough due to lack of energy (I tend to put SS on one target, RH them and then SS a second target), and it takes them a lot longer to get down to 50% health (or die, for that matter) so that you can utilize SoLS.

With the recent changes, will builds have to change dramatically in order for necros to get the 'benefits' that SR can provide now? Sure, using Glyph of Lesser Energy works great for those builds that specify a secondary Ele profession; what about those builds that were once fun to play - for example: N/Me builds that used Curses and Domination? Many of those builds are energy intensive; whatever bonus was received from SR pre nerf (with 10 in SR, you gain 7 energy with SoLS, should you use that for energy support) is now a distant memory. Builds like that don't allow much room for putting points in Death or Inspiration for energy management, without sacrificing points from your primary attribute and/or lowering the amount of damage you are able to do.

Will this change have the unintended effect of streamlining builds to the point that Necros are stuck with playing low-cost, unimaginitive builds just to avoid the energy issues that you claim casters are supposed to deal with?

Perhaps what angers me most about this whole issue is that Necromancers are expected to be nothing more than *cough* 'support' characters. With this nerf, it appears we've been relegated to the back of the classroom. I find that incredibly insulting.

On a side note how does everyone like the skill changes? lol

I can tell you. I wouldn't care in the slightest. Energy Storage can't go much lower than it already is.

I defend this update, and I'm not in PvP (I have 1 Fame, not rank 1, 1 point total). I think it is a step in the right direction, as SR is overpowered, but not the adjustment I would have chosen. How many of you would be complaining if this adjustment were to state "Soul Reaping no longer applies to spirits and minions." ? Personally, the energy management is not a problem for me, and I know I'm not the only one who is experiencing the same thing.
Generalizing that all PvPers are "snobby freaks" is not going to win you any points.