[Dev Update] Soul Reaping and Mesmer Issues

Ummm...generally SR isn't really beneficial until later in the campaigns. In the earlier parts of the games mobs are smaller and so you have fewer enemies and they die pretty much at the same time. But later in the game SR becomes more important due to larger mobs of much higher levels. Its what gives Necros staying power where other casters don't. Keeping blanket hexes up and running is alot of work and by the time you're at the end of your hex chain you'll need to start all over again and your energy will be pretty much gone. SR gives you what you need to keep going. Now its the efficiency of the Necromancer has been cut in half. The MM lags behind the others in the party while s/he waits for his/her energy to recharge and prays the corpses don't vanish before then. The SS...well the SS just hopes something dies before Arcane Echo expires. Lowering energy costs doesn't solve the problem of long recharge times and a now lackluster primary attribute. I still play my Necro but now I have to endure people yelling "y do u only have 5 minions!!". Luckily SS' usually go in twos and we can just cast BR on each other.

SoLS isn't the answer to everything. People keep saying it and it keeps being completely untrue. One skill can't correct or make up for a horrible gap in the Necromancers energy management. No skill in any profession can do that. Not even the legendary Glyph of Chuck Norris can.

You have scored two direct hits on why this nerf is a bad idea.

As far as your first paragraph, I'll quote what you conveniently skipped over, that answers your statement more than completely.

Whoops, there goes the energy management. 4 other classes get the same kind of benefit, with damage causing skills attached to the primary. Whatever attribute points you put in SR have no DPS benefit whatsoever. And we have long mathematical posts showing how the En returns from any of those other classes is significantly better than capped SR - and they get those attrib points towards skills that do damage.

Was SR overpowered? Pssst - the correct answer is no. Is SR gimped to the point where it is not a valuable primary? Yeah.

Your second paragraph talks about making Necro skills cheaper, which will make Necro an awesome secondary. 10 for FG or SS? What a bargain! Why be a Necro and count timers when you can be an Ele and start with 90 Energy? Or be a monk with SS at 10? Hook Dunkoro up. Even Norgu starts to look good with half cast time on spells and 10 for SS.

Mesmer has awesome skills and is arguably the most popular secondary - but the Fast Cast primary is not as useful in PvE as it is in PvP, so it is an awesome secondary.

Do you want Necro to be in the same boat? Hint - the correct answer is no.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Reaper's Mark.

And yes, I hope necros will rot in hell, then emos will maybe stop playing the game and then complaining that they no longer have an infinite energy engine.

Bwahaha! That skill is:
- you only get one on your skill bar Elite (strike 1)
- the DoT how about this no way really and truly wouldnt lie to ya less than Conjure Phantasm (strike 2 bwahaha!)
- is a Hex so can be removed like Conj Phan (Strike 3! Yer out, its a unusable skill)
- also depends on death of the target while hexed to get en comparable to the target death in SR (uh, wha?)

Oh yeah, I am gonna equip all my Necros with this one. Its so useful! Thanks for the tip!

?????
TabascoSauce

...

You just lost all credibility in all posts, past and future. Please try to base your arguments on reality, in order to actually have a point.

Also, several of your points about Reaper's are wrong.

That's why I am glad you are here, Avarre. You're always polite, insightful, and provide some sort of proof of the things you say.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Wow. I certainly hope Anet looks at this guy when seeing who is supporting the SR nerf.

I am. It was screwing up PvP. So?

I play, interestingly enough, a necro and a mesmer.

My mesmer, who theoretically has an -entire- skill tree focusing on energy management, has to plan out his builds meticulously to ensure I have the right balance of energy costs and e-management skills, and this usually involves spending points in not one but TWO trees that have little or no value in PVE. Why? Because Inspiration requires a pretty significant point investment to be useful for energy management, and most of those skills are slooooow to recharge, which means I'm forced to take Fast Casting and Mantra of Recovery to avoid downtime.

Sure, when I get the build right, it runs like a well-oiled machine, but I sure don't have a lot of options. Want Domination AND Illusion in one build? Hey look, all of a sudden I'm forced to use Glyph of Lesser Energy at 0 energy storage, because I can't afford enough points to make my own e-management skills worth choosing over something tied to an attribute I CANNOT have.


Know what my necromancer does for energy management?

Nothing.

This isn't any different than necro. You throw together some build with a bunch of high energy skills, you will have energy problems as a necro. SR is anything but an auto battery on it's own, otherwise practically everything would be played as a necro.

Catharsis, that is what happens when you try and play an Ele with a Mesmer. You take enough Energy management, you are the well-oiled machine and can throw those 25 point exhaustion causing Meteor Showers.

Try being a Mesmer with a Mesmer, they do not really need the energy management because they do not have 25-point exhaustion causing Meteor Shower. Their DPS suffers, but they can manage just fine.

Your Necro would suffer the same fate were you to try and be an Ele with your Necro.

Instead, you play a Necro with your Necro, and you do OK.

Well, that was simple to debunk.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

No, not quite.

Almost every useful mesmer spell costs 10 or 15 energy. I can fit 25e beasts on my bar if I use a +15/-1 and Auspicious Incantation, and that works fine, but we don't exactly have that many to choose from. And I don't FC-nuke. If I wanted an elementalist... well, I have one of those, too.

I dunno, maybe you folks are playing completely different necro builds than I am, but pre-nerf, energy was NEVER an issue. I could easily keep 10 25e bone fiends up and kicking and still have energy left over to spam orders, heals and who knows what else. I could run 15e Arcane Echo / 2x 15e SS / spammy melee curses non-stop, without even looking at my energy bar.

Now?

Ok, admittedly, fiends are more difficult to work with, and you need to toss in some minion variation or just let them live longer instead of spamming the spell to get a fresh one every time it's ready.

SS? Down to 10e. Still not a single energy issue. Hell, I can toss in a Well of the Profane now and again with... you guessed it, no problems.

And if, by some odd chance, I should run low on energy, Signet of Lost Souls is a phenomenal e-mgmt tool.

Soul Reaping now is roughly on par with the other good primaries. The fix is inelegant, certainly, and I'm sure a less arbitrary one could have been chosen, but it's kinda tough to argue it was balanced before.

I am glad you asked! I was in the 1950+ post thread about SR. We came up in there with a lot of good posts, that can be boiled down to:


1.SR is only triggered by defeating enemies -or- expiring minions/spirits.
a)SR differs from other passive energy management (ex – Expertise) in that with normal use by defeating enemies in PvE it is not based directly on actions from the player, as is expertise. It also differs in that SR can apply to all allied players, not just yourself.
b)The exploit in PvP uses summoned spirits that are timed to every 5 seconds to defeat the timer. If you have 2 dedicated spirit summoners, then you are fully utilizing SR every 5 seconds while doing nothing. This exploit is not used in PvE, not being a valid tactic.
c)Thus, until gain from minions and spirits that are not yours is stopped, this will continue to be an exploitable mechanic – because it makes SR controllable by the player and distributed to all allied players.

2.SR is an attribute without damage causing skills.
a)Other passive energy management attributes have damage related skills, making them usable in 2 dimensions, as opposed to SR which is one-dimensional, just energy management

3.SR was/is not overpowered relative to other energy management attributes
a)SR, capped, is now below potential returns on Expertise, Divine Favor, Critical Strikes, Mysticism, and Leadership.
b)Comparing the skill costs for Necromancer skills vs other classes, it is easy to see that Necro skills are more expensive, rendering the Necromancer unable to keep up with his energy costs. Anet is lowering Necro skill costs because they realize this.
c)Since Necro skills are more expensive, they need better En returns that in their case, are not guaranteed. You must win in PvE to trigger SR. Why punish players for winning?
d)By lowering Necro skill costs, they are making the Necromancer a better primary than secondary. Why look for a timer when Eles can start with 90+ energy and have skills that will solve their potential energy woes? This removes the reason to be a Necro primary.

4.If Necromancers were that powerful, where were the dominant necro PvE and PvP builds that did not use the exploit mentioned above?
a)50,000 players all trying to find the most powerful builds are pretty effective, as seen in the FoTM cycles. The Necromancer was useful not ever dominant in wiki builds.
b)If the Necromancer was overpowered, then why were N/Mo not preferred over Monks? N/Ele not preferred over Ele? Because they were not better even with SR.

5.There is a cap on SR – the max energy of the Necro which tops out in the low 50s with green weapons and energy-granting armor.

I figured I would compile the ideas. I am sure I have left some things out, but this is a good start as to exactly what is going on with SR. The idea that SR is/was overpowered is frankly ludicrous. Heck, we even had one guy argue that MM made the game easier, and should be nerfed for that reason. He was educated that by his logic, Monks were next, and then Eles, and Mesmers, and 8-person teams, because they all made the game easier.

SR seems overpowered because it has no fixed cap, other than monster deaths. It is pretty powerful when you are mowing down 5th level enemies in Sardelac with a 20th level party, but you are going to win anyway. It also seems pretty powerful when a party of 8 Necros is in PvP with 2 spamming spirits in the back providing full benefit to all 8 while the other 6 spam SF in spike-deaths, right? That is a controlled usage of an attribute that was never intended to be controlled.

The right answer is to unhook spirits and minions from benefiting every Necro in range. Until that is done, SR can be manipulated to provide maximum energy with minimal risk, as opposed to the intended use of SR which is triggered on defeat of an enemy.

If you can summon up energy on command, then yes the mechanic is broken. In PvP they are doing exactly that. In PvE it was never needed, and 8 Necro teams did not dominate using that tactic, because there are hundreds of monster bots ready to die, and not a limited team of 8 in PvP. You are better off with 8 balanced players in PvE, because bots are plentiful.

So, why not close the exploit? Why artificially break a functioning primary to a level where it is better to be another class and have Necro as your secondary?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Mesmers dont suck in PvE because their energy management is bad. Power Drain and Auspicious are the two single best inspiriation skills, and that could easily include elites as well. Those two are easily enough to power any Mesmer's balanced and reasonable PvE bar.

The real issue for Mesmers is that they have their role. That is clear because they are being used in PvP to shutdown and harass enemy midline/ backlines. They work well at doing that and so not only do they have a role of harassment but they do it well.

PvE is failing to meet the requirements of the Mesmer. Each mob has its energy and health and as the fight goes on both of those go down and down naturally. The enemy monks fail at supplying decent protection and healing or even at least one of those areas so eventually the enemies die from very basic pressure applied from even the worst players.
Some skills make the job of Mesmers even more unnecesary in PvE: Elementalists have the spell Meteor Shower. Everyone knows that spell, 9 seconds of complete shutdown to an area of choice. Bunch up the monks and they will die after those 9 seconds.
Necromancers have the spell Spiteful Spirit. This spell is completely Mesmer, but I have to say Anet did well not giving this to Mesmers. Every Necro atm is suffering from MM or SS only builds, simply because they work far too well. Mesmers have no builds that work on par with the damage mitigation or inducing that an MM or SS can give.

The problem for Mesmers in PvE is that PvE is far too broken for a Mesmer to fit into this jigsaw. Shutdown is innefective and unnecesary: the enemies die over time and MS makes it impossible for the monks to deal with the mess.

The Mesmer is also seriously lacking in reasonable options. There is a long list of Mesmer skills and elites that are so bad in PvE and PvP that they never see use. PvPers dont complain because they use E-Surge, HEV, MoR and Power Block to great success. These skills are very sub par in PvE.
The choices for PvE in terms of elites are pretty much HEV in areas where it counts, E-Surge for basically trying to be a generic ele nuker and Mantra of Recovery to make the better spells on youre bar come back faster.

There is a big number of bad Mesmer skills for PvP that no PvPer would miss. Use those to give the options to Mesmers that they need.

Enchanter's Conundrum is a great example. A skill designed for damage, but its single targeted making it pretty worthless, and its "primary" effect is terrible. Its values are horrible as well: 15e 2c 20r is a horrible drawback to this skill.

Visions of Regret has huge potential in PvE but its dwarfed by SS as usual and even by Empathy in many ways. The skill could be made AoE (which is a lame but reasonable option), activate on attack and/ or adrenaline skills, or get a better recharge.

Air of Disenchantment is already AoE based and is designed to punish those with enchantments on them. The secondary condition to 10...82% slower enchantments is that it removes an enchantment. 10 1 20 again, pretty much a sign of a bad elite made simply to make up numbers. Add heavy degen to enemies not suffering from an enchantment, maybe add damage when it ends to those who still have an enchantment on them after one is removed.
Illusion is pretty bad in PvE simply because the enemies die so quickly for degen to make a strong impact. Ineptitude and Clumsiness are example of GOOD illusion spells. Damage mitigation and instant damage. Stick a lower recharge on Ineuptitude to about 16 and it would see a lot more use, and be on par with clumsiness. The blind is only a strong factor in PvP, but it is not used there because of the better options available. The damage is good and it wont break the meta to reduce the recharge.
E-Tap and Mantra of Recall are too good for monks to be using, but in this meta most monks are running LoD, ZB, RC and not so much anymore DH. GoL is seeing play, but Mo/Me is a rare sight anymore, with options like Mo/A becoming pretty standard. Its time these skills saw some love again, possibly linked to the fast casting attribute.

Echo needs to be more user friendly imo. Adding the part "the copy becomes echo after it is cast once, if the recharge of the copy is over 30 seconds." Then it would become much more useful for the Mesmer to use, because he could echo more skills and not waste time with the recharging skill.

Skills like Tease and Extend Conditions see no hope in the state they are. Rehaul them up to a standard that any ele, war or monk would expect please.

I also see putting the good E-management skills into the FC attribute as a terrible idea. Inspiration would become nothing without these skills, so moving them would kill this line. Unless Anet wants to do that.

This is my opinion; you may flame my opinion, but not me please. I have a lot of experience with Mesmers in PvE and I understand how they work and that they need their own role to become more important, than for their role to change to fit into PvE.

I also see a lot of hope from the PvE only skills, but i dont expect much from Anet anymore. They make their own lives harder most of the time.

I have no doubts you know a hell of a lot more about necros than I do... I never play them. But... holy crap! You have no clue about mesmers! No problems with e-management? I tend to need three inspiration line spells for energy management purposes, and, unlike soul reaping, these rely on timing to work.

Some of the spells require interrupting a casting spell. Some require a spell being cast after you cast yours (Guilt). There's no free lunches like soul reaping gives. OK, there's the one or two that give you two points for every one you steal, but it still winds up less than the cost of a good spell.

Another thing you fail to realize is that mesmers have fast casting. Yep... works like a charm, can fire off those 10e and 15e spells in no time. Sucks the energy bar clean too.

Don't need e-management because we don't cast meteor shower? Please, just stop. It's embarassing.

Excellent post. Pretty good summary. Everyone who wants to post on this subject should have to read this before doing so.


That pretty much sums it up. Mesmers are a shutdown class facing enemies that aren't worth shutting down. The two possible solutions are (1) make the monsters worth shutting down -- instead of super-high levels, attack speed bonuses and other cheese difficulty, give the monsters dual professions, good skillbars, the AI to use those skillbars well -- and (2) give mesmers AoE direct damage so people can play them like eles or curse necros. Given the progression away from sorrows furnace (remember the first time you fought a dual-MoP, dual-rez mob?) towards the factions elite missions, DoA, and then hard mode, I'm going to bet that #1 is never going to happen. Keep your fingers crossed for #2.

Last time I checked, Domination and Illusion were MESMER skill lines, not ELEMENTALIST.

No flames from me, in fact I will back you on buffing Mesmers, sir. Go back a few pages and you'll see me arguing just for that.

I think that you have the nail on the head - PvE does not provide as fertile an environment as PvP for using the Mesmer skills and FC, making Mesmers an awesome secondary but underused primary.

Nothing is necessarily wrong with Mesmers - they shine in PvP. But as you say, PvE is not like PvP. I advocate buffing Mesmers to make them desireable in PvE and shake up the PvE landscape from the 3 primaries of Warr/Monk/Ele.

The SR nerf only reinforces the W/M/E problem. Try getting into a PUG as a Necro.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I think you know more than me about Mesmers, and I would be happy to tell you my skillbar. I do not have problems with energy though, maybe because I do not use a cookie cutter build.

I use a mes/rit, 11/10/10 for Illusion/Inspiration/Communing and usually have 2 or 3 spirits that do raw damage, like pain, anguish, etc. The rest I have recurring insecurity or migraine, spirit of failure for the en, sig of clumsiness, clumsiness, images of remorse, and sometimes a mantra of earth/flame/etc if I am going to take lots of elemental damage.

That build, while not being necessarily stellar, is good enough to win against lv 24 margonites etc in the RoT. <grin>

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Want to run Blood Magic AND Curses in one build? Hey look, all of a sudden I'm forced to use Glyph of Lesser Energy at 0 energy storage, because I can't afford enough points to make my own primary attribute worth choosing over something tied to an attribute I CANNOT have.

You are making the argument that because you want to max out a bunch of non-energy related attributes, you have to rely on your secondary for free e-management. How is the necromancer any different AT ALL? I don't think I quite understand why your mesmer is unable to afford any points in inspiration but your necro is able to afford points in soul reaping. Maybe because you aren't giving the necro a ridiculous build?

Reaper's mark is probably the single most powerful skill in the necro's arsenal right now. Thus, you fail.

Also, I don't think I've seen a single competent mesmer who doesn't have at least one, if not two energy management skills on their bar. Fast casting makes you pump out those spells faster, requiring more energy.

It's not entirely true, in hard mode you certainly do need shutdown. Unfortunately, curses necros are far better at providing melee shutdown over a wide area, and interrupt rangers or warriors ar better at providing disruption on casters when you need it. The hardcore single target shutdown just isn't really worthwhile when there are 3 other monsters with the same skillbar running around.

Well that is funny. I went to two sites with build wikis and they have a grand total of 28 builds for N/X. Two of those use Reapers Mark - "Reaper of Humility" and "IV Transfusion".

That is not a dominating percentage. I think Aura of the Lich and Spoil Victor have that, since they are more commonly used.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Wiki builds fail. Why do you think they all got wiped?

Yup. Glad you cleared that up. I mean, the potentially millions of players doing the FoTM are just plain wrong, even though they are winning PvP matches and being shamelessly emulated. Not to mention that they were archived on multiple sites that had greater editorial staff to better keep track of the age of builds. Wiki builds are just so yesterday.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Sorry, but the FoTM IS reaper's mark for necros. If your build runs hexes, you have a reaper's mark guy. End of story.

In the last several months, I've never seen an aura of the lich guy, only seen spoil victor when there already was a reaper's mark guy, and seen reaper's mark all over RA, TA, HA and GvG. It's 300 armor ignoring damage for 5 energy. It's just that good. PvPers don't give a crap about the energy thingy it gives anyway.

In PvE, the only real drawback to it is that you really can't spend all the energy it gives to you.

? 30 seconds times 5 health = 300? ? Uh, it does not stack.

From das wiki:

Reaper's Mark
From Guild Wars Wiki

Reaper's Mark

* 5 Energy
* 1 Activation
* 10 Recharge

Campaign
Nightfall
Profession
Necromancer
Attribute
Soul Reaping
Type
Elite hex spell

Elite Hex Spell. For 30 seconds, target foe suffers -1..4..5 Health degeneration. If that foe dies while hexed with Reaper's Mark, you gain 5..13..15 Energy.

A pip of Health Degeneration is 2 Health/Second. So, it would be 5 Pips x 2 Health/Sec x 30 Seconds = 300 Health.

I believe you just lost any argument you had.

I don't see why Necromancers need the energy management from Soul Reaping then, if you can do well without energy management. The energy usage of the Mesmer vs. Necromancer is pretty much the same, because they both require energy for spells that cost 10-15 energy. I don't see why Necromancers don't have to work and not bring any energy management while Mesmers do. As a Mesmer, I still have to bring energy management due to pumping out spells quickly with Fast Casting, and also because of the energy cost of the spells. With Necromancers, they already have the energy every five minutes after a creature dies, PLUS the few skills that provide energy for the Necromancer such as Signet of Lost Souls. If the Necro still doesn't have enough energy, consider taking skills from your secondary profession, like a Monk would have to do before Zealous Benediction existed. Even WITH ZB, I still see Monks taking along GoLE to further improve their energy management. I don't think that the Necromancers need the extra energy from Soul Reaping at all, because they need to start working to earn energy, not just stand there and leech energy off of dying corpses.

I stand corrected.

That does not change the original premise before we got sidetracked on one skill - Mesmers need buffs, and SR should be reverted back to the way it was.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Tabasco, you fail. Period.

I would gladly take a competent mesmer over almost anyone else in PvE - the problem is, most of the mesmers are not any good at what they should be doing, and there are not many of them to begin with. The supposedly comming PvE mesmer buff is for the complainers.

Soul reaping NEEDED a change. The current one is a worthless pile of horseshit, but the change was needed.

Ah, getting back on course... (I'll leave the soul reaping thing alone for now due to lack of experience)

... Why again do mesmers need buffs? Keep in mind this is from an avid mesmer.

Going on my own experience in hard mode... I've now vanquished 14 areas in Elona, and done so with the following blend...

Mesmer (me, dominatrix)
Dunkoro (healer)
Koss (axe warrior)
Razah (rit hench)
Illusion hench (mesmer)
Kihm (healer hench)
Devona (warrior hammer hench)
Earth ele hench

Not one nuker in the bunch, and we're doing fine.

... OK, let's take the other perspective then... I don't have the experience of running in groups that are the cookie cutter 'holy trinity' make-up. Therefore, I can't really say how more or less effficient those make-ups are. Interesting bit of a mess. I don't have any monks and can't stand the mind-numbing button mashing of a warrior or fire ele so probably won't get the perspective I need to argue both sides. OK, that being said...

... I need to reload. I got nothing.

OK, bit of a reload (small one)... buffing mesmers the wrong way could easily kill the character of the class. Giving mesmers massive AoE damage would wind up resulting in only AoE damage mesmers being accepted, even if the finesse builds are just as if not more effective in PvE. Current mesmers are quite effective in PvE, even if it appears more subtle than meteors crashing from the sky. Hit a monster monk with backfire and it's a corpse waiting to happen. You want to see dervish monsters (even bosses) go down quickly? Backfire. Top it with empathy and nail them with some direct damage... they go splat.

I guess, in a nutshell, I fear mesmer buffing because of the potential to destroy the classes essence.

I agree with this. Mesmers are mostly fine the way they are. I wouldn't mind seeing a few changes, particularly to Inspiration (which feels a little lacklustre to me), and some of the more recently added elites that need fixing. I also wouldn't mind seeing a near-global cut in recharge times, and a compensating nerf to Mantra of Recovery. I love MoR, but I don't like it being far and away the best choice of elite in just about any build that uses Domination.

But the last thing I want is to be a chaos-damage elementalist.

SR wasn't overpowered two years ago.
The fact that with nf alot of new skills in the SR attribute were introcued, made it overpowered.

First, Insiration had energy management skills and Soul Reaping hadn't got skills but a powerfull passive regen.
Now with nf SoLS and Reapers Mark were introduced. Now SR had both passive regen and active skills. Removing the skills wasn't possible. So the passive regen was 'nerfed'.
Can't see the point of necro getting nerfed. SoLS and Offering of Blood helps well with a decent blood build. You still have got alot of energy. Actually even w/o OoB all necros can survive easily. And when you are really hard on getting your spells cast. Just do what the other casters did for over 2 years now: Get a secondary profession

Pyro maniac, you are wrong, its because rits with spirits were introduced AND new and powerful hexes. Necros were limited to blood spike or SS/faintheartedness/life siphon, there wasn't anything as powerful as there is now to bother exploiting.

Well, by your previous posts you are generally against buffing Mesmers.

Looking back in this thread, we all agree on 1) that Mesmers are worthy 2) Mesmers require (more) thought to play and 3) Mesmers get more respect in PvP but not so much in PvE in reference to acceptance in PUGs and PvE guild play.

We have one camp that says "Mesmers are awesome, and people do not realize it". They are also the camp that emphasizes that Mesmers are not button mashing drones. The radical elements go further and insist that players should be forced to like Mesmers and that only the retarded resist.

The other camp says that "Mesmers are awesome, but they require more thought (read: work) to play since they are not raw damage machines but have mostly reactive damage effects, which do not leave visible trails of meteors for everyone to appreciate". The more radical elements also insist that Mesmers are unappreciated by the community because why not be an Ele and mash SF and win - it is easier and with the same effect.

As far as I can see, it is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. They are both true and have valid points. Their only problem is they both use a stick and not a carrot as incentive to be or accept the Mesmer.

What would be the logical answer?

If we want to expand the Warr/Ele/Monk thingy, then we need a reason to choose something else. 50 thousand players at any given time can be playing this game and looking for the next big thing, the best skillsets and class combinations. There must be something to the idea that Mesmers are more complex players, because the majority of the community is skeptical of players with Mesmers - maybe because they are more complex and not everyone is that good of a Mesmer?

If Mesmers require thought to play, then why not make them better to reward the thoughtful for their trouble? That will help the noobs learning, and reward those who take the time to master the Mesmer as a class. I see win/win.

Not as simple as it seems though, because making mesmer skills better will also increase their attractiveness as a secondary. They need something related to their primary that will make them more desirable without unbalancing PvP.

There have been a fair amount of ideas, some in this thread, about how to do that. I have seen some suggest that fast casting should maybe apply to all skills, not just spells. There was an idea a few pages ago that FC would rock if it had a built-in hex removal or reduction effect on the target.

It all comes down to the motivation to accept Mesmers. For some reason, I disagree with the camp that says anyone is retarded? If we buffed Mesmers, they they would get more acceptance without anyone calling anyone else anything.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Well, you obviously do not actually play necromancer at all in PvE, and only in PvP to a very limited degree if at all.

RM isn't "x armor ignoring damage". It is only "x armor ignoring damage" if you do not or can not remove the hex, but I guess your pvp opponents never remove hexes.

The problem with RM in PvE is that it's practically worthless since the mobs you're fighting have huge health regeneration. Nobody uses RM in PvE for anything, period.

NO U.

Seriously, if you think Reaper's Mark is a bad skill, you just lost all credibility that you had.

^Because health degeneration is the key to victory.

I have a cool idea: make the Mantra against Elementals stances (flame, lightning earth and air) shouts so that they affect all allies in range. That would be cool.

One of the problems mesmers have in PvE is that their interrupts are very hard (impossible) to use without extra skills to slow casting, and this puts us at a slot/energy disadvantage as compared to how the skills were balanced in PvP.

A solution to this is to get rid of the "after-cast" for bosses (giving them the skill spam) but keep the usual cast times. This is a change to make PvE more "mesmer" friendly (ie, making 1/3 of their skill line useful again); yet it doesn't impact anything in PvP.

Another thing is to use more higher-level monsters rather than increasing the party size. That said, I'm not happy about the new idea of PvE only skills. I really already dislike alot LB Gaze.