[Dev Update] Soul Reaping and Mesmer Issues

If a profession is gimped because he doesn't use a specific secondary profession (ele or mesmer, in this case most likely), there is something wrong with the profession. No primary profession should have to rely on a secondary to be able to function.

Just make it so necro's do not gain energy from spirits or minions, fixes it at once.

QFT.

I don't believe Mesmers need to be improved. It's nice that ANet is looking at it, however. Mesmer is a behind-the-scenes class that a lot of players don't appreciate until they (successfully) play one for themselves.

In PvE There is always demand for warriors (meatshields), elementalists (nukers), monks (healer/pro), rangers (trapper party! barrage party!) and necros (mm/ss/bip etc..), to cover the core classes.

To be honest, though, I had a harder time finding a party when I was playing an assassin.

That's not even remotely true. There are very few skill bars from any primary profession that can't be improved via the use of at least one secondary skill. It's not a matter of his (or any necro's) bar being rendered useless because of a lack of secondary profession, it's simply that choosing to not use a secondary as a form of protest against the SR change (or as a means of roleplaying a "pure" necro) very likely results in suboptimal play.

I didnt read the whole thread so someone may have already said this but....

There will only be 150 new skills in GW:EN, and 50 of them will be pve only skills (which will prolly be related to the glipses of the new races we will see, or various non profession skills like LB signet ect)

so thats 100 new skills, which seems liek a lot...but

theres ten classes, so that means only about 10 skills per class....
that doesnt seem like much, and to make it worse when you divide by 5 (4 attributes, and the unlinked category), thats only two new skills per attribute....which is...hardly...any...at all..

On the other hand, I can see why Anet wants to buff mesmers for pve.
Theres no class Id rather NOT go up against one on one than a mesmer, as they can defeat just about anyone one on one, with the right set of skills....however....as far as pve goes..they simply dont have the big bulging muscles of warriors....or the wide ranging death swath aoe of eles. they cant really raise you an army, and they cant send barrage after barrage of arrows at the enemy. also, they are not especially adept at protecting themselves and are relatively soft targets in pve.
Their role in pve, besides perhaps making bosses...really...easy, is undefined. Just about anything they can do effectively in pvp, a warrior or ele can do with brute force in pve. Sure a mesmer can shut down a monk and keep it from healing, but a warrior calling a target and putting pressure on that same monk in pve can get the job done just as well. Pve doesnt take as much precision and skill as pvp does, nor as much focus. the mesmer is all about focus and precision, and to all those muscular warriors looking to get masters reward on that hard mission, they just look like a burden. so yes, i can see why anet feels it needs to give out a helping hand to our mesmer friends.

Agreed. I seldom have a problem in PVE with my Mesmer - unless I am trying to get a group outside of my circle of friends or guild mates.

As far as the Necro goes. I would have to say, that I agree that something was probably needing done. My necro never had energy issues. However, I would have to agree with a previous poster that just removing minions and spirits at least at first would probably have been a good first step. The five seconds is inelegant and a pain to monitor.

last off topic post from me as this probably ties a record for the number of posts in one thread.

you dont get it do you? you must really be a @#$% up. and that's not an assumption -- it's a fact based on the tone of your post and your failed attempt to desprately keep the leetness from seaping out your aura. it was never an issue about me using secondary skills to compliment my necromancer skills. its a matter of me choosing to play the game how i want to, not how you or anyone else would like me to. what you call an advantage, i call it hinder, because i would have to take points away from my primary attributes to put into secondary, which i would never be able to use as effective as that of the primary attibutes. but then you already know this. what i don't understand is why you keep pushing for me or players like me to conform to your style of play? i am not your average necromancer. btw, that wasn't an invite. me choosing to use only primary attribute skills was never based on protest of the recent SR change. it was base on trial and error and overall what works best for me, not you or anyone else. it was a decision i made not long after the release of GW.



Jayce Of Underworld

------------------------------------------------

Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0

Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)

That's true, I never felt so usefull in pve like I feel now; I vanquished 3 areas in ascalon area so far with olias, tahlkora, koss and me as a mesmer. Died a few times in areas that had aoe spells because heros don't kite, and when you do, they stop healing/attacking and follow you. And I am certain that pve guilds that vanquish with real people should have no problems if they use these classes as well.

You misread me. I said *specific*. If a necro doesn't go /E or /Me for e-management, he is gimped according to your last post (really, what other professions have worthy e-management for a secondary? heck, even GoLE isn't great anymore).

It must be a matter of perception...my mesmer has no problem in PvE, using my (well equipped) heros and henchies. The fact that you have to plan what skills to take and when to use them is part of the mesmer appeal. Make them any stronger, and it might get boring, like ele. nuker.

Jayce's last post made my point for me, so I'll join him in discontinuing that discussion. As for your post, I didn't misread anything. In fact, you're not fully understanding what I said. There are skills from nearly all classes that can improve a necro bar, depending on the situation. You're probably best off taking /E or /Me for energy skills, true, but you could also take interrupts, prot skills, hex removal/avoidance, etc. My post was pretty clear -- it's going to be the rare bar that cannot be improved with the introduction of one or more secondary skills. Even Jayce's concern about changing attributes doesn't hold water because there are great skills like Web of Disruption, Holy Veil, etc., that require no attribute point spec to be 100% effective. One thing we can all agree on -- this has moved far off topic (although, IMO, it's not been without value).

The reason is almost all PvE players are noobs and think button smashing searing flames is the way to go (or some other aoe). They also think lets grab us healing monks and hope for the best where as a mesmer could completely shut down casters and melee making the missions go smoothly.

My soul reaping mechanics proposal

Soul reaping
You gain [soul reaping level] seconds of +3 pips of energy whenever a creature near you dies. Due to the artificial nature of summoned creatures, they give 0+1 pips of energy for each 5 levels of that creature (max 3 pips).

Advantages :
- Energy input limited by the 10 pips cap.
- low level spirits/minions (lvl 1-4) don't give advantage anymore.
- no deaths are ignored (duration is updated after each death)

Sounds great. Make it so I can get a group in Domain, please.

Old Ascalon is practically the Noob area of guild wars. There's even some presearing AI left on enemies who were previously level 3 or less. Soul reaping concerns dont matter because mobs come in groups of 3 or less. The only problematic skill in the whole area is healing hands, and that can be solved with an enchantment remover.

How about you take olias and Norgu to Perdition Rock instead where mobs of 6-8 Flesh golems cast Flesh golem as soon as anything dies. There's too many in the mob for Norgu's shutdown to do much and fights last a long time because stuff is constanty dying due to the enemy minionmasters (who you can hardly beat to corpses because they cast 50% quicker than you).

First: I'm really glad you look into the mesmer issue. You should have done so long ago. But better late than never. Unfortunately, the rest of my post has a different tone.

Probably? Probably? P R O B A B L Y ? Understatement of the year! Don't any of you guys play PvE mesmers? I have stood hundreds of hours with my mesmer in ToA and Tombs trying to get in teams. 99.99% of time when I try to get in a team, I'm not accepted. If I stand all day without trying myself to get in teams, there is ZERO invitations! I have often the seek for party ad in the party seek window, but still no-one ever invites my mesmer. (And she looks absolutely stunning.. so not even eye candy is enough to get invitations).

Yes, I know Tombs has gone all B/P teams. I'm not trying to get in those. Trying to get in teams with those incredibly stubborn people (hooray for them!) who don't come there to play B/P.

Oh, noes. Another easy way out. Give mesmer damage spells: I was afraid of this. God dammit you and your greedy bosses! Is damage your answer to everything? Considering the "hard mode" I'm guessing it is. You spoil the mesmerizing thing in mesmers with that kind of approach! Change the mob groups! Add healing/protection, resurrections, enchantment removals, enchantments, make them interruptable, reduce hex removals, remove natural recovering of hexes and conditions, reduce mob energy pool/regen. That's the best solution to the mesmer-issue. And nerf ranger interrupting (yeah that's really popular suggestion, but it has to be made).

I'm crying of frustration!

Lets talk mesmers, just for grins. Do you think new better skills will fix the mesmer problem in groups in PvE?

The mesmer skillsets are awesome, and based on an unscientific survey they are the most popular secondary class. I think that rules out the skills as to the reason mesmers are not wanted in PvE. If mes secondary is that popular, then there must be something awesome in those skills, if you know what I mean.

What does that leave? What can a Mesmer primary get that a mes secondary not? (or better phrased, what can a mes secondary not get, and not miss for not getting it?) Fast Casting.

What does Fast Casting bring to PvE, when compared to other primaries like Elementalist extra energy? Is there any advantage to FC when it is put in comparison in PvE? (I think the answer is no) If the usual 3 Warr/Monk/Ele can do a job simply, then why get the same result with a mesmer in a more complex fashion?

For Mesmers to get love, Fast Casting needs to be buffed.

Whoops, how will that affect PvP?

(And as a shameless plug, they have now reduced Necros to the same category, an awesome secondary but bad primary. Why count a timer when the Ele has 90+ energy and energy management skills to keep raising minions?)

Just food for thought.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

What many people fail to take into account is the plight of the poor minion master. It is true: with energy, it is feast or famine, but that is much like the natural world. When a buffalo dies in the desert, the crows are happy and fat, but how long do they have to wait for that animal to die? Necros have not had much difficulty with energy. This is one of the things about diversity that you have to get used to: we're not all the same. You want to promote diversity, don't you?

But we all face challenges.

We must compete with one another for a limited commodity: corpses. There is only a small number of bodies to use for anything, and if you can't exploit it faster than the necro on the other side, you lose everything. If you don't have enough energy to raise a minion when someone dies, then someone else will get that corpse to use it for whatever end they want, and if you're the party necro in PVE, and the enemy has five or six necros. So: we didn't have to worry so much about energy management, but we DID have to worry about working the bodies.

Also, do not forget that many creatures do not leave bodies, so if you're a MM, you have to make the bonies last through a battle without refreshment. In some areas, you can't even play as a MM. The minions are underpowered for the higher level areas, and unlike other monsters, they don't move out of AoE.

Also: bodies mysteriously vanish in an amazing 45 second. If you have to wait 15 seconds for vamp horror to become available again, you might get two off. If you ALSO have to wait for your energy to come back, a lot of bodies are going to be gone before you get the chance to use them. Let us not forget that the party often loses patience with MMs who have to sit there and wait for a time to either raise a body or go through the BOTM > Heal > BOTM ritual, just to get a few more yards out of the bonies.

The walking minions also decompose at an alarming rate. You have to spend an enormous amount of energy and HEALTH to keep them going.

Let's face it: if MMs were so powerful, nobody would be able to play anything else. The fact is, we're a dying breed. We're the most consistently enervated character class I've seen, except maybe for Mesmers, you can already see how this half-time rule-changing of ANETS has affected their playability in PVE.

So no: I do not think it's fair to make us compete for a limited resource AND make it harder for us to use our renewable resource. Please do not continue to weaken this class until it disappears from the game. I don't want to be a WAMO, and if ANET makes this the only viable character class after nerfing everyone who is "different," I'll just stop playing.

I don't play my necro much as an MM, prefer to let Whisper do it, but I did experiment with a mission the other day using my regular MM build. Didn't really notice a big difference other than occasionally I had to raise cheaper types of bonies. That used to happen anyway once in a while, which is why I had the cheaper bonies skill on my bar.

I would like to see a better way of targeting/commanding bonies. When playing a MM, I simply don't have time to point and click bonies for Death Nova the way Whisper does. Also, since sometimes it is preferable to have bonies in front (but not the MM!), would be nice to have a bonies flag on my compass!

yeah the mesmer skills are useful in hard mode in the earlier areas(on my mesmer I found the shutdown and skills like emapthy useful on small mob numbers it was simple to do the missions.) but in places like perdition rock with no shut down in aoe mesmers could be replaced with any other class for better results (the flesh golems summon bone minions not flesh golems but this actually makes it worse for norgu as he'll put empathy on bone minions rarther then focusing on the flesh golems unless you target them for him).

(yes, I know it's probably a bit out of context, but it's basically what your entire post was about).

No it doesn't. Fast Casting is an awesome primary, and people don't recognize it. FC is basically an IAS for spells, letting you pump out the damage from things like Mind Blast, Fireball or Liquid Flame. With sufficient emanagement (an attune+Mind Blast+MoR+Glowing Gaze, which all add to damage apart from attune) you can spam your skills to your hearts content and do damage comparable to a warrior.

I assume that you are referring to PvP?

I am not picking on FC, BTW. It is very valid and useful in PvP, where it is in its element. In PvE, the nature of "cheating" of level 28 monsters lowers FCs usefulness relative to other primaries because there is no (relatively) level playing field as in PvE.

It has been well debated as to the usefulness of FC in PvP vs PvE, so if that is the point of contention, then we can agree to disagree.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

PS - I find it funny that a supporter of FC would actually say "No, do not buff it!" Your response is unique, and my hat is off to you for altruism, if nothing else.

FC lets you get more spells off quicker. The benefit is to you, independent of the other mobs. I know I'm much happier playing an FC nuker than a normal one (5 sec meteor shower gogo).

FC is one of those things you don't notice much, but when playing other professions you suddenly start noticing that all your skills cast slower.

Has Perdition Rock ever been a good place for a minion master?

One thing I've noticed that hasn't been commented on is the fact that ANet themselves seemed to be treating mesmers like red-headed stepchildren with the introduction of Nightfall and heroes.
Think about it: there are 2 heroes to represent each of the core classes, except for mesmer, where we're limited to fatboy Norgu. Way to make people take a class seriously :|

Aside from that, while fast casting has it's place, it REALLY needs a boost in PvE, where it makes very little difference.
I would say that maybe fast casting should be linked to the recharge times of mesmer spells, but in doing that, you'd have to tweak the recharge rates on almost every mesmer skill.

And the continual nerfing of skills that are core to what the class is about means that PvE mesmers are left doing jobs that other classes are better at.
Necromancers are better at degen and enchant removal; rangers are better at interrupting; elementalists are better at nuking.
I used to love playing my mesmer; indeed, diverting Glint is a highlight of Guiild Wars I'll never forget. But now, in PvE, the master is Jack of all trades, master of none.

Also, instead of being lazily ambiguous and just showing base cast times on spell descriptions, these should change to show how much faster a spell casts when under the influence of fast casting. But then, this sort of interface improvement should also be applied to expertise and skill energy costs.

I haven't read all these posts so if this has already been mentioned...

I've an idea to make the mesmer more NEEDED in PvE. With all the crying about hexes being too powerful

Why not make the mesmer a leet hex remover but ONLY available under the Fast casting attribute. That way only a mes primary can use the skill which will make groups want to include a mesmer at long last.

I am sure you have heard the arguments that +40-someodd energy is better than half casting time, and that the Ele nuker spells do more damage cause of the Ele primary, at raw damage output, which is how the community usually measures efficiency.

I think that the community is pretty good at finding efficient ways to do things, which is why I made the original statement that mesmer FC needs a buff to make it more valuable. Of course, the community is focused completely on effect - not fun. And I have teamed with some awesome Mesmers who were Nukers before, and the missions went just fine.

I am not trying to tell you how to play, merely that a buff to FC would make the mesmer more used in PvE, which is not a bad thing as far as I can see. Ele was a convenient reference point.

If they could work in a way to automatically apply a one-hex removal to the closest hexed ally when mesmers cast a spell, then wow. Mesmers would be having to use a stick to keep away the invitations!

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Idea to make Fast Casting more party friendly:

"Each time you cast a mesmer spell on any ally, that ally gains Temporary Fast Casting--for a number of seconds equal to the recharge time on the spell you used, that ally's next spell casts 1% faster multiplied by your ranks in Fast Casting. Temporary Fast Casting does not stack and will overwrite a previous copy of itself. Temporary Fast Casting does not stack with a primary Mesmer's own Fast Casting. Whichever casting speed is faster is the one that is used in that case."

Numbers can be tweaked for balance.

When the monk is under heavy pressure, including hexes, you could then remove a hex from the monk and the monk's next followup spell will cast a bit faster, making it more likely that the monk will actually get the spell off without dying or being interrupted.

Anti-abuse #1:
Inspired Hex is interesting. As you may know, if you use Inspired Hex on an unhexed target, Inspired Hex recharges instantly. To avoid abusing it on unhexed alliies to give party perma infinite fast casting, I chose to write Temporary FC as being based on the recharge of the mesmer spell used instead of having a fixed duration.

Anti-abuse #2:
Temp FC is triggered by mesmer spells only. Seems too abusable to make it work for other spells, Monk spells in particular.

Originally Posted by MrTickle
Why not make the mesmer a leet hex remover


roflmaotsetung you are kidding right? hex remover.... that's something for monks. seriously, we do not need another defensive class.

Sometimes you really make me laugh. Who cares about maximum energy pool; I don't care whether I have 40 or 70 energy, maximum spell cost is only 25. With fire attunement and something else to help me with energy (glowing gaze+MoR, mind blast), I can keep firing out all my nukes as soon as they recharge.

Also, you're wrong. FC is basically an IAS for spells, and I don't care if a primary ele can get 4 more points of damage from Flare or something-I can cycle flare in twice the time he can.

I think you are interpreting all this as attacking your playstyle. If you like playing a mesmer nuker, then rock on. You would not be doing it if it were not successful for you. But that is not what I thought we are discussing...?

I want to talk about buffing the Mesmer primary to make them more wanted in PvE.

If I got sidetracked by your statement that you play a mes nuker and it works for you, then I apologize.

So, wanna buff the Mes Fast Casting? What are your ideas?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

And run out of energy four times as fast.

Important bits bolded.

Seriously? Ever seen hex eater vortex/shatter hex in action?

I still dont get why SR was nerfed so much..5 seconds was a Devasting blow to necros in PvP..People aways talk about "Increasin the diversity in HA" and by nerfing SR the 2 Necro Backline has been sufficiently nerfed and no longer available. People say the HV Necro was way too powerful but in no way was it Too powerful..SR is what it is, a Primary attribute and you had to give up runes in Healing and the Primary Attribute Divine favor in order to use the bar sufficiently.. SR did need some nerfing but 5 seconds is just too much and even with SR many necro bars depended on that and they DID need to watch there enrgy because of the higehr energy skills they needed to use.


Mesmers FTW mesmers are one of the best professions in pvp...A good Diversion mesmer can totally shut a monk down by learning his/her casting patterns and shutting down the desired skills tell much other professions can do that and whne it comes to pvp mesmers are etremly valuble

I capped "Hex Eater Vortex" without reading the description. I expected an aoe hex eating whirling thingie.... turns out, it's a "Shatter Hex" removing a single hex with additional aoe enchant removal
Sadly the normal skill "Hex Eater Signet" removes more hexes than it's similar named elite sibling.

Two things:

1: Remove SR triggering on spirits = gg

2: Mesmers in PvE:

Mantra of Recovery, Mistrust, Backfire, Empathy, Power Drain, Guilt, Shatter Enchantment, Ressurection Chant.

Works absolutely FINE in PvE.

Yeah a good AoE buff to Hex Eater Vortex (or similar) to remove x amount of hexes per rank of FC would be a great boost to the Mesmer and I'm sure we'll see more of "LF Mesmer"

Working is not the same as being good. I did missions without armor or skills, and with 7 hench. That worked too.

Again, fast casting does not need to be buffed. It is perfectly fine.

Also, I don't play M/E FC nuker that much. I was just using it as an example of when FC shines in comparison to other elites.