ANET, please fix HM hero AI
berlioz7
I can hardly function with heroes in HM because my monk hero is continually dead. No matter how I set her agressiveness or no matter how far back from the battle I pin her, she will just stand there and take a beating without moving. In normal mode she will run away from agressive enemies. Please, pretty please.
Winterclaw
Last night I set Dunkoro to avoid combat.
He stayed put when attacked by the devourers.
He stayed put when attacked by the elementals.
He stayed put when attacked by the stupid grawl monks!!!
I'm not used to having to constantly flag my heroes so that was pretty annoying.
He stayed put when attacked by the devourers.
He stayed put when attacked by the elementals.
He stayed put when attacked by the stupid grawl monks!!!
I'm not used to having to constantly flag my heroes so that was pretty annoying.
Esprit
When I did Great Northern Wall with 2 guild mates and Dunkoro, I had him set to Passive, and what did he do when the first Grawl mob kited back to the boss? He followed them back. The rest of the mission I had to move him via flags so that he would stay alive.
explodemyheart
Quote:
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Originally Posted by berlioz7
I can hardly function with heroes in HM because my monk hero is continually dead. No matter how I set her agressiveness or no matter how far back from the battle I pin her, she will just stand there and take a beating without moving. In normal mode she will run away from agressive enemies. Please, pretty please.
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I've sent in support help and I was just told that they knew nothing of other complaints and I should post on a fan forum.
ChaoticCoyote
Over on GWO, there's been a heated discussion about a number of major Hero bugs in HM...
* Heroes ignoring flags
* Heroes ignoring their defensive/offenee setting
* Tanking monks and timid warriors
* Lack of kiting unless given speed-up skills
* Broken skill usage (some will only spam a single low-cost spell)
* Magic user (esp. monks) prefer to wand over using their skills (EDIT)
There are more I've probably forgotten.
ANet has not ackowledged or even responded to the issues. People such as myself have offered to provide video and specific builds, but unlike the Soul Reaping issue, ANet has shown no interest in this topic.
Which has lead some to believe that ANet deliberately dumbed-down the hero AI in HM to force more PuGging, in response to the numerous complaints about how heroes "ruined" the game.
A response from ANet would be nice. At the moment, these problems make is impossible to use heroes and henchmen to obtain the vanquisher titles. And finding human player to kill 25,000 monsters in 151 explorable areas is unlikely and unrealistic...
* Heroes ignoring flags
* Heroes ignoring their defensive/offenee setting
* Tanking monks and timid warriors
* Lack of kiting unless given speed-up skills
* Broken skill usage (some will only spam a single low-cost spell)
* Magic user (esp. monks) prefer to wand over using their skills (EDIT)
There are more I've probably forgotten.
ANet has not ackowledged or even responded to the issues. People such as myself have offered to provide video and specific builds, but unlike the Soul Reaping issue, ANet has shown no interest in this topic.
Which has lead some to believe that ANet deliberately dumbed-down the hero AI in HM to force more PuGging, in response to the numerous complaints about how heroes "ruined" the game.
A response from ANet would be nice. At the moment, these problems make is impossible to use heroes and henchmen to obtain the vanquisher titles. And finding human player to kill 25,000 monsters in 151 explorable areas is unlikely and unrealistic...
Red-Tide
/me awaits Gailes response which will be something like this "Hard mode is harder"
ChaoticCoyote
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Originally Posted by Red-Tide
/me awaits Gailes response which will be something like this "Hard mode is harder"
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Of course, if this were a bug in mini-pets, you know Gaile would be there in a second, seeking a fix.
Navaros
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Yup. If you want to do hard mode, you need to play with humans, which likely means joining one of those faction-farming guilds that get all of ANet's love.
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I notice that when I give Dunkoro a LOD & Heal Party build with those skills at the most left of his bar, he will almost never cast them. I always have to micro all his LOD & Heal Party casts, which gets very tiresome. Would be real nice if they made Dunkoro able to use those skills decently on his own.
Light of Cantha
Finished Guardian of Elona a couple days ago. Did it mostly with heroes, or with one other player.
Best suggestion I can give with heroes is you have to flag them up. I flag my monks around the back edge of the aggro circle, other casters at the middle, and the rest do whatever. Otherwise, casters wand instead of do what they are suppose to do, and healers tank instead of heal others.
It's a definite pain in the ass to setup, but it does work. What can else can you do, not like theres a ton of PvE guilds advertising for HM.
Best suggestion I can give with heroes is you have to flag them up. I flag my monks around the back edge of the aggro circle, other casters at the middle, and the rest do whatever. Otherwise, casters wand instead of do what they are suppose to do, and healers tank instead of heal others.
It's a definite pain in the ass to setup, but it does work. What can else can you do, not like theres a ton of PvE guilds advertising for HM.
ChaoticCoyote
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Originally Posted by Light of Cantha
Finished Guardian of Elona a couple days ago. Did it mostly with heroes, or with one other player.
Best suggestion I can give with heroes is you have to flag them up. I flag my monks around the back edge of the aggro circle, other casters at the middle, and the rest do whatever. Otherwise, casters wand instead of do what they are suppose to do, and healers tank instead of heal others. It's a definite pain in the ass to setup, but it does work. What can else can you do, not like theres a ton of PvE guilds advertising for HM. |
As for Guardian, I'm most of the way there on all three continents, PLAYING WITH HUMANS. Yup, PuGs. Finding PuGs for 50+ relatively easy missions is not that difficult.
Finding humans who want to clear 151 areas with more than 25,000 monsters -- that's where the problem comes in.
I've pretty much stopped playing at this point. I've done everything in "normal" mode, and going for the Vanquisher titles is about all that interests me at this point. I'm just sticking around in the forums to see if ANet ever has *any* response to this issue.
Again, if it involved mini-pets, Gaile would be on it like my lizard is on crickets.
IlikeGW
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Of course, if this were a bug in mini-pets, you know Gaile would be there in a second, seeking a fix.
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Deleet
I've been having the exact same problems with my hero monks. Made some HM areas completely impossible, because even with 2 - tanking - monks, they kept dying.
They seem to completely ignore the offensive/defensive/passive stances.
That is why I had to start playing with humans again and - for me at least - it has been a delightful experience!
They seem to completely ignore the offensive/defensive/passive stances.
That is why I had to start playing with humans again and - for me at least - it has been a delightful experience!
FeroxC
If anybodys having a problem with olias as a MM standing at the back while with is minions while monsters swarm yours weak casters its because he needs an attack skill like deathly swarm equipped.
This bug made vanquishing alot of areas harder for me
This bug made vanquishing alot of areas harder for me
Omega X
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Over on GWO, there's been a heated discussion about a number of major Hero bugs in HM...
* Heroes ignoring flags * Heroes ignoring their defensive/offenee setting * Tanking monks and timid warriors * Lack of kiting unless given speed-up skills * Broken skill usage (some will only spam a single low-cost spell) * Magic user (esp. monks) prefer to wand over using their skills (EDIT) There are more I've probably forgotten. ANet has not ackowledged or even responded to the issues. People such as myself have offered to provide video and specific builds, but unlike the Soul Reaping issue, ANet has shown no interest in this topic. Which has lead some to believe that ANet deliberately dumbed-down the hero AI in HM to force more PuGging, in response to the numerous complaints about how heroes "ruined" the game. A response from ANet would be nice. At the moment, these problems make is impossible to use heroes and henchmen to obtain the vanquisher titles. And finding human player to kill 25,000 monsters in 151 explorable areas is unlikely and unrealistic... |
countesscorpula
On a semi-related note. I was vanquishing an area and noticed that when the bad guy was getting close to death, he'd run away - no surprise there. Imagine my surprise when the minions that were attacking the near dead bad guy began to run from it. They would keep this up for a while too. Get the target near death, target retreats, they retreat from retreating target.
I know i don't run away from things that run away from me. We were all still in the same aggro bubble. I just don't get it.
I know i don't run away from things that run away from me. We were all still in the same aggro bubble. I just don't get it.
Glider of chaos
I really wish ANet told us whether it was intentional or not... I see no reason for them to remain silent, actually.
*really hopes Gaile read this before it will for some mysterious reasons be moved somewhere else*
*really hopes Gaile read this before it will for some mysterious reasons be moved somewhere else*
Kool Pajamas
Ive also had a problem with my heroes stop attacking when I kite even when they are set to aggressive. I have to retarget the enemy most everytime i kite an enemy.
Age
It could be they want you to PuG more to the likings of PvP when the mob AI was changed to non scatter most didn't like that.I find in HM the mob AI is smarter than the Hero/Hench AI.I did Witmans Folly in both modes and the mob AI was more smarter so I gether it is to group up more or just have more real ppl in your party say a ratio of 5.8s.
Theus
Well..It's hard to PuG when you've got no one in your desired district to actually pug with.
dwc89
Agree hero AI needs fixing in HM. Not everyone plays the game at the same time or with the same goals.
It is getting more difficult to find groups for missions now I've noticed, and if you are short ppl then heroes top up the group.
If Anet intended the dumb down so we would play with ppl I believe they err'd - can't see many hanging out at camp rankor spamming lfg to vanguish Snake Dance - Lornars Pass , last stop Beacons Perch.
Was looking forward to HM and like most of it, however if I can not realistically get things done.........
And maybe they will read threads about this and address the problem, one way or the other.
BTW - Gaile, after several of us mentioned the AI , did say they read the forums - did not answer the questions directly though.
It is getting more difficult to find groups for missions now I've noticed, and if you are short ppl then heroes top up the group.
If Anet intended the dumb down so we would play with ppl I believe they err'd - can't see many hanging out at camp rankor spamming lfg to vanguish Snake Dance - Lornars Pass , last stop Beacons Perch.
Was looking forward to HM and like most of it, however if I can not realistically get things done.........
And maybe they will read threads about this and address the problem, one way or the other.
BTW - Gaile, after several of us mentioned the AI , did say they read the forums - did not answer the questions directly though.
Racthoh
I flagged my henchmen to the north.
They went south.
What the hell is that?
They went south.
What the hell is that?
berlioz7
The thing is, there do not seem to be any more pugs forming for HM anymore. I was able to find some the first couple of days, but no one is doing HM missions that I can find. So if they dumbed it down intentionally, they messed up because there are no pugs anyway and now players cannot even rely on hero/henchies in HM.
erkun
I thought my I was just experiencing some bad lag because Dunkoro and Talkohra were not doing their jobs, but it seems that it is really a dumbing down of Hero AI. Grr...
I agree to the other posters that it is difficult to find a group on some areas.
I agree to the other posters that it is difficult to find a group on some areas.
ChaoticCoyote
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Originally Posted by berlioz7
The thing is, there do not seem to be any more pugs forming for HM anymore. I was able to find some the first couple of days, but no one is doing HM missions that I can find. So if they dumbed it down intentionally, they messed up because there are no pugs anyway and now players cannot even rely on hero/henchies in HM.
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As far as I'm concerned, Hard Mode is a bust. They deliberately made it hostile to heroes, and there simply aren't enough people to sustain it.
The game has become incredibly dull. Normal is so easy it isn't fun for me; hard mode is simply no fun with the current stupid heroes and henches. HM is easy in the low-end areas, but get to later material and the heroes just can't do the job.
To placate the super-casual players, ANet floods the game with trinkets and mini-pets. To satiate the high-end folks, ANet provides farming areas that cater to a very few classes. For the rest of us, there are... other games, I guess.
Rather than make HM workable with heroes, they throw cupcakes at us! How about making the game work *without* gimmicks?
I've offered to help solve this problem; silence. But someone says that they throw away mini-pets, and they get an immediate and heart-felt response from Gaile. Complain about mini-pets, and there is Gaile again. Try to provide detailed information about a serious, game-stopping bug, and... silence.
No, GW is no longer the game for me -- or my family. We have 11 chapter; I even "earned" one of those nifty Christmas cards. But in the end, the game isn't any fun, and my daughters have moved on. There's no place for us between "easy" and "hero-killer" modes.
Meikleham of Tyr
I would like to agree with all the sentiments put forward so far.
Between farming LB points and working on Vanquisher, for most areas I don't even try to bring Monk Heroes anymore. Even though they have significantly more energy, better armor and an overall better skillset, they always just end up being less helpful than a blind pile of meat.
Although outside of Monk, Necro, and sometimes Paragon heroes, I haven't had too much trouble.
But, dang, considering I spent a couple hundred plat outfitting my heroes, I wish they were actually useful.
Between farming LB points and working on Vanquisher, for most areas I don't even try to bring Monk Heroes anymore. Even though they have significantly more energy, better armor and an overall better skillset, they always just end up being less helpful than a blind pile of meat.
Although outside of Monk, Necro, and sometimes Paragon heroes, I haven't had too much trouble.
But, dang, considering I spent a couple hundred plat outfitting my heroes, I wish they were actually useful.
Evilsod
Tbh i think most of the problems can be solved with simply making them spread out or ball up in certain situations!
Zen Daijun is retarded. I use Broadhead Arrow on the boss... fair enough. He gets a Spirit Rift off a few seconds in... 3 seconds later. 3 henchman drop dead.
That and i have heros kiting around furiously... thats a problem you say? Not when they kite OUT of my wards! I use a Ward against Melee or Ward against Harm. So the moment i cast it they kite out of the ward, then stand and tank outside it!
Chaotic... we all know Gaile doesn't respond on anything that actually matters. We have a large list of known bugs at the top of the forum, many of them have been around for weeks, months or even years. Does Gaile comment on them? Does she even acknowledge there existance? Or then of course we had the huge crisis of Minipet sounds been removed.... who gives a toss, they were all annoying anyway! But then we see Gaile instantly appearing to soothe the complaints, very quickly its fixed. If they can fix things that fast, do something f*cking useful!
Zen Daijun is retarded. I use Broadhead Arrow on the boss... fair enough. He gets a Spirit Rift off a few seconds in... 3 seconds later. 3 henchman drop dead.
That and i have heros kiting around furiously... thats a problem you say? Not when they kite OUT of my wards! I use a Ward against Melee or Ward against Harm. So the moment i cast it they kite out of the ward, then stand and tank outside it!
Chaotic... we all know Gaile doesn't respond on anything that actually matters. We have a large list of known bugs at the top of the forum, many of them have been around for weeks, months or even years. Does Gaile comment on them? Does she even acknowledge there existance? Or then of course we had the huge crisis of Minipet sounds been removed.... who gives a toss, they were all annoying anyway! But then we see Gaile instantly appearing to soothe the complaints, very quickly its fixed. If they can fix things that fast, do something f*cking useful!
Zenocided
I feel for ChaoticCoyote, as I'm also trying to finish up hardmode after the initial frenzy and now that exams are over, I have time to do so. The heroes that were dependable in Normal because their jobs weren't that hard do not cut it in Hard mode. And the repeated fact that they need almost extreme micro-management is just a pain in the arse.
I'm pretty much the only one of 6 friends that went and bought Guildwars when it first came out. I still play Guildwars regularly, but would really like to see AI improvements where they are needed. I mean not that I'm antisocial, but playing by yourself should be just as enjoyable as when playing with a group of people, not harder because modifying the AI is a pain in the ass.
For those of us that literally were sold to Guildwars as a casual gamers game, bring that selling point back. You've given us heroes to use, make them better heroes as is or allow us even further customization on them like ie: [FFX or FFVIII's] character behavior algorithms in which some skills on heros only activate when a certain condition is met. So lets say they only will use Zealous benidiction when anyone's health is below 50%.
I'm pretty much the only one of 6 friends that went and bought Guildwars when it first came out. I still play Guildwars regularly, but would really like to see AI improvements where they are needed. I mean not that I'm antisocial, but playing by yourself should be just as enjoyable as when playing with a group of people, not harder because modifying the AI is a pain in the ass.
For those of us that literally were sold to Guildwars as a casual gamers game, bring that selling point back. You've given us heroes to use, make them better heroes as is or allow us even further customization on them like ie: [FFX or FFVIII's] character behavior algorithms in which some skills on heros only activate when a certain condition is met. So lets say they only will use Zealous benidiction when anyone's health is below 50%.
SuperDave
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Originally Posted by Evilsod
That and i have heros kiting around furiously... thats a problem you say? Not when they kite OUT of my wards! I use a Ward against Melee or Ward against Harm. So the moment i cast it they kite out of the ward, then stand and tank outside it! |
This is my approach. Flag heroes at one spot, equip bow, micro Zhed's skills (Zhed starts to cast his wards, at my request) lure foes. Enemies proceed into the wards (all melee), are blinded and are pretty much fanning my party. Then one of the squishies, usually a monk hench starts to kite like mad out of the wards. Said henchie then gets mobbed by scary monsters with big bats and mad skills...dead henchie. I then proceed to shake my fist, curse, kick my dog, kill the foes and rez dead henchie.. After a while this henchie (and perhaps 1 or 2 others that did the same stupid thing) are walking around with -40%+ DP and die instantly if anything so much as looks at them. I then proceed to look for the dog to kick (it's getting good at hiding) click the little X at the top right hand corner of my screen and wonder if WoW is worth a look.
Winterclaw
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
I flagged my henchmen to the north.
They went south. What the heck is that? |
They can't read maps.
I wonder if anet broke heroes in order to get people to pug more. Have people been having problems with them in PvP as well (I dunno because I never go there anymore).
lennymon
Lol, I had Tahlkora pinned 1 aggro range BACK from me (I was tanking...in theory) in Old Ascalon last night. Oh yeah, she was also set to avoid combat... for some reason the *entire* fight with 4 grawls she was in FRONT of me tanking... It happened a lot, not just that fight, but that one was especially funny, since as soon as I got aggro she ran ahead of me (up to more than 1 aggro away from her pinned location) and began tanking. Glitch? I think not.
FelixCarter
Just tried to Vanquish my first area early in Ascalon. Right when a boss entered Radar, all my heroes dropped their weapons, ran toward the RED ENGINE GOer, and proceeded to try and strangle him with their bare hands while I watched at the edge of my radar. All I could do was laugh as they stood there, taking turns dieing and resurrecting each other.
Even setting flags down did not recall them. They wanted to pwn that SoB real bad, I guess.
Anyways, I ended up giving up on that area. I'll probably do Hard Mode one day... But it won't be anytime soon. Not with henchies that idolize Leroy Jenkins.
P.S. Gaile! Sneak that shit! Whattehfuxup?
Even setting flags down did not recall them. They wanted to pwn that SoB real bad, I guess.
Anyways, I ended up giving up on that area. I'll probably do Hard Mode one day... But it won't be anytime soon. Not with henchies that idolize Leroy Jenkins.
P.S. Gaile! Sneak that shit! Whattehfuxup?
Don Zardeone
I think it's a side-effect of the 25% (or is it 50%?) speed increase of the monsters.
Remember when you're running someone, when you activate sprint, monsters don't really bother anymore to chase you.
Heroes have monster-AI, or at least similar AI. All hard mode monsters run faster, so the heroes don't care about where those monsters are:
- They won't "kite" away from it
- They won't bother attacking it
Norgu doesn't bother interrupting things because they cast too fast anyway. I'm figuring the same happens to rangers (haven't tried yet).
Not sure what the deal is with monks that don't heal...
Remember when you're running someone, when you activate sprint, monsters don't really bother anymore to chase you.
Heroes have monster-AI, or at least similar AI. All hard mode monsters run faster, so the heroes don't care about where those monsters are:
- They won't "kite" away from it
- They won't bother attacking it
Norgu doesn't bother interrupting things because they cast too fast anyway. I'm figuring the same happens to rangers (haven't tried yet).
Not sure what the deal is with monks that don't heal...
Takeko Nakano
I think they need to improve the hero AI. None of this implied "but we want you to use humans" bullcrap. VERY OFTEN THERE AREN'T ENOUGH ACTIVE PEOPLE IN A DISTRICT TO GO ALL HUMAN!!!!!
ANet, if you want to employ an army of humans to ensure we can play HM missions, fine. Otherwise give us our sensible heroes back, because I refuse to stand in a district waiting for people to appear - especially because when they do appear they might be noobs and wreck the mission anyway.
This isn't about going all hero, it's about being able to have 1 or 2 if the PUG is short!
ANet, if you want to employ an army of humans to ensure we can play HM missions, fine. Otherwise give us our sensible heroes back, because I refuse to stand in a district waiting for people to appear - especially because when they do appear they might be noobs and wreck the mission anyway.
This isn't about going all hero, it's about being able to have 1 or 2 if the PUG is short!
Draikin
True, it has already been found that it is the speed boost on the mobs that is causing this. Activating a running skill on the heroes will make them kite again. It's not just the kiting though, there seems to be something wrong with the way they're using their skills compared to normal mode.
YunSooJin
hero monks won't heal themselves with ZB in hero mode. its furking retarded
kurtas
Quote:
| I've offered to help solve this problem; silence. But someone says that they throw away mini-pets, and they get an immediate and heart-felt response from Gaile. Complain about mini-pets, and there is Gaile again. Try to provide detailed information about a serious, game-stopping bug, and... silence. |
You see two threads.
One detailing a major bug in your product and irritance for your clients.
One with no relevance to the game.
Your job is to deal with consumer problems and reassure them about problems with the game.
Which do you post in to get paid today?
If you chose the first option you have common sence, if you chose the second option, you just might be Gaile Grey!
ChaoticCoyote
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Originally Posted by kurtas
That does seem like a stupid thing to do for a PR person.
You see two threads. One detailing a major bug in your product and irritance for your clients. One with no relevance to the game. Your job is to deal with consumer problems and reassure them about problems with the game. Which do you post in to get paid today? If you chose the first option you have common sence, if you chose the second option, you just might be Gaile Grey! |
I don't know about other people, but cupcakes (and their ilk) seem an awful lot like droppable cheat codes. They design HM so it can't be beaten with heroes and hench -- but, oh, look, here's a cheat code that makes you faster! Bad design coupled with cheap tricks means PvE Guild Wars is NOT a "serious" game.
So eat your cupcakes and cuddle your mini-pets, because GW is about gimmicks, not gameplay!
Maybe if we held a protest, like the Mursaat event? Created a fan event to show how much we're annoyed? Do I care enough anymore to organize such a thing? And would ANet just send in the Mursaat (or something sillier) to wipe us all out if we gather in protest? Watch ANet turn our mini-pets against us...
...no, they wouldn't do that. Heaven forbid they undermine the integrity of mini-pets!
Shanaeri Rynale
I agree, this is a really annoying bug. But the best way of dealing with it is to raise support tickets, giving as much detail as possible. Gailie is aware of this bug, so I suspect it's being looked at.
Evilsod
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale
I agree, this is a really annoying bug. But the best way of dealing with it is to raise support tickets, giving as much detail as possible. Gailie is aware of this bug, so I suspect it's being looked at.
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The list of things she actually chooses to address or even comment on is tiny.
That would be funny. Halloween, the devs turn all minipets in towns into life size monster versions who pwn everyone in town
ChaoticCoyote
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale
I agree, this is a really annoying bug. But the best way of dealing with it is to raise support tickets, giving as much detail as possible. Gailie is aware of this bug, so I suspect it's being looked at.
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So I'm posting in the forums.
Which is about as useful as sending in a bug report.
