i still dont like them..

This wasn't really directly related to my post above so...

Let's look at mathematically average damage based on damage ranges.

Scythe Average Damage per hit = (9+10+11+12... +41) / 33 = 25
Axe = (6+7+8+9... +28) / 23 = 17
Sword = (15+16+17+18.... +22) / 8 = 18.5
Hammer = (19+20+21+22... +35) / 17 = 27

Criticals:

Scythe - 41 * sqrt 2 = 57.98
Axe - 28 * sqrt 2 = 39.59
Sword - 22 * sqrt 2 = 31
Hammer - 35 * sqrt 2 = 49

DPS, based on 1000 second interval:

Weapon stats are assumed to be set at 12, with a 17% chance to critical hit, with no inscriptions or customization on a 60AL target.

Scythe - 1000/1.75 = 571 attacks, 97 being criticals. 480 * 25 (avg dmg) = 12,000 + (97 * 57 [crit dmg]) = 17,529 / 1000 seconds = 17.52 DPS
Axe - 1000/1.33 = 751 attacks, 127 criticals. 624 * 17 = 10,608 + (127 * 39) = 15,561 / 1000 = 15.56 DPS
Sword - 1000/1.33 = 751, 127 criticals. 624 * 18 = 11,232 + (127 * 31) = 15,169 / 1000 = 15.16 DPS
Hammer - 1000/1.75 = 571, 97 criticals. 480 * 27 = 12,960 + (97 * 39) = 16,743 / 1000 = 16.74 DPS

So as you can see, if you were to attack for 1,000 seconds with each weapon, mathmatically the Scythe has the highest DPS. While the Hammer will do slightly more damage for an average hit, the very high criticals of the Scythe make the scythe overtake the hammer in terms of DPS. Also as Ruadvin pointed out (and you didn't try to refute so isn't an issue anymore,) many Hammer attacks either have no + damage with them, or very little - most being KDs. Interestingly, Axes and Swords are nearly dead even, with the Sword having the lowest DPS.

EDIT: Source for figuring damage.

Additional Edit:
I just remembered how much I hate RA... and to show you how useless such anecdotes are.

Did about 11 games, won about half, lost the other half, didn't have one decent team. Not a single team would acknowledge a called target and do whatever the hell they please... like attack the E/D tank the entire match instead of the Monk. Virtually all of them quit within seconds of dying - I'd usually be halfway through using my rez on them and they'd up and quit. RA is a horrid form of PvP with horrid players (quit immediately after dying once?)

That being said, I not only made the most kills of anyone (most of the time I made the only kills... >.<) in every game I was always the last one standing, my only heals being Vital Boon and Pious Light - for most of the games I used Heart of Fury, Crippling Sweep, Wounding Strike, Victorious Sweep, and Mystic Sweep... nearly instant death for all non-warriors. I just wish my teams didn't completely ignore my called targets (like the Monk instead of the E/D...) and then quit the instant they fall. >.<

This is mostly to Mekkakat, but anyone else feel free to respond as well.

I think one issue that may be causing trouble comparing dervishes to other classes is that there's a pretty broad range of dervish builds out there, and they each play differently from one another. For instance, an elite form dervish is going to have a certain play style. By comparison, other dervish builds will likely rely on multiple enchantments. Even then, they may be relying on the enchantments staying up most of the time, or they may be relying on dropping them frequently. The play style will be different depending. It's even viable to play an enchantment-lite dervish that goes heavy on scythe skills. Use forsaken insignia, then figure out what you're going to do for your self-heal, and you're off. Once again the play style is going to be quite different.

Unfortunately, the upshot is that more coordination may be needed for a dervish to work well with a group. When I'm monking, and there's a dervish in the group, I usually want to see their build so I can make sure I don't foul them up or waste spells on them. Healing Breeze, for instance would be wasteful to cast on a dervish that relies on dropping enchantments. By comparison, many protection enchantments work especially well on this same style of build. (Of course, everyone should be checking builds anyway. The dervish is simply penalized a bit more if you don't.)

In addition to being a poor test environment, random arena is one situation where you're going to find very little coordination. So in a sense, random arena is a worst case scenario for comparing dervish builds.

I know you originally discarded PvE as a means of comparison, but PvE does have a few things going for it when it comes to comparing and testing builds. The monsters in PvE are very consistent in number, location, and behavior. Many of the groups in PvE also tend to spike damage of one sort or another. A build that can survive a spike in PvE may actually perform better in PvP owing to the fact that there are no level 21-32 players out there.

While PvE may be "easier" than PvP from a variety of perspectives, it's certainly possible to get yourself killed in PvE (especially in hard mode.) So rather than rely on a lot of anecdotal evidence from a bunch of random arena games where you aren't even sure what builds were being used or the relative skill of the players, why not present some builds that play strong in a particular PvE environment, and compare them to dervish builds in the same environment?

You mentioned that you farm with your warrior. What do you farm, and where? If you presented us with the build and the environment, we would have something concrete to examine and compare to a dervish build in the same situation.

i can solo all of proph and factions, and most of nf with my warrior. part my builds, part witte. as far as farming, i dont really farm much now, but when i did, caves and uw was all i really did. caves for fun if i was bored, uw for steady obvious income. i also mentioned in later post that there were more pvp test other than RA llama. its cool if you didnt read the other post, but i thought i'd mention that, specially seeing as a lot of people hate RA for many reasons. again, the main reason why i brought that up first, was because utility shouldnt equal one category. anti melee can still have great defense against spellcasters, ranged fighting close combat ect. it seems like dervishes are so "specialized" and "difficult", that their versatility more or less hinders them half of the time. enchants hurting them, anti melee as usual, ect. even the most specialized class in the game seems to have more options IN COMBAT than the dervish, which is the mesmer. they can turn the tide every way you look, and even if they're build for one set up, they can hold their own. i see Vigored dervs that rely on attacking for HP, then they get snared, ripped, and antimeleed into submission, because they cant attack. or spell casting dervs ripped up, backfired, the works. im not saying this happens all of the time, but it happens too much, for people NOT having to set up purposely FOR dervishes. some people in GvG/HA come set to kill mesmers, ready with their guns, and they have to work hard, and while they're doing it, a derv is in their face, and they kill him in seconds instead, with the same tactics as killing the spellcasters. same thing with antimelee ect. im sure a derv could easily farm in pve, but that really doesnt constitute anything in the game... almost every class can solo something. i solo with my paragon all the time, and i have no problems. a dervish is nothing but a warrior/monk with some tricks. sure, some of the tricks are nice, but most are really played out already, and almost totally ineffective, specially seeing as no class or team has to specifically TRY to counter them, when they're this goop of random moves and skills, waiting to be slammed on. its nice to see the melting pot of all the classes, but it feels too humdrum and inconsistent to really call a "good" class. some play them well, but that doesnt account for the whole community in any way, and the good players are always outweighed in any class, and even with the derv being a little newer, they aren't seemingly getting better as a community, they aren't getting any good builds, and they aren't making some huge difference in the game like many dervishes claim them to be. i never see them get groups in DoA, UW, FoW, Urg, Deep, nothing. they arent in gvg unless some lame bomb, that gets smashed by hex ways, eurohexing, bloodspiking, or even paraways. im just not impressed in the overall state of the class. that might not mean much to any of you, and thats fine, im not asking you all to for whatever reason feel like you need to convince me or anything of the sort. im impressed with the better derv players, the ones that use the class to its full potential (with what it has), and while i haven't seen many yet, i have high hopes for Gwen, its skills, and the more skilled players will get utilizing some.. not so cookie moves. i dont mind staples, i dont mind classics, but lack of creativity, copying, and poor playing skill due to flat out misuse is practically all the dervish community has right now, and its pretty boring, sad, and totally useless to the pve/pvp scene. i never see dervs anywhere in pve getting picked for HM anything, and worse, when i finally do see a few in GvG/HA, its the same builds over and over.. losing. seemingly TA is the first and only place i've seen a few teams with dervs succeed, in which i had to congratulate them for being part of that few. i dont hate the class itself, just what its become because of its community so far. they aren't invincible, they arent spikeproof, they aren't the ultimate class. thats called being unbalanced in the first place, and second place, they havent gotten out of second-rate melee yet as far as i have seen. maybe im in all the wrong spots at all the wrong time, and if i am, i hope i get to where the good dervs are soon, cause the class just ain't cuttin' it for me.

Perhaps indeed you were in the wrong spots. I have seen some dervs take on a boss by themselves and walk away. I myself make a comeback as well. my spell-proof derv serves me well and I am just still trying to figure out a melee defense method but it is coming along. doesn't need to attack to heal or anything. Not to mention the hidden well that exists within the forms, all of them having a different way to survive. in PvE, dwayna I use more than balthazar since I get great heals and it stacks well with my high regen as well. I find this far more useful than additional armor and a speed buff. in FA and JQ I use melandrus, vital boon, and mystic regen along with chilling victory and victorious sweep. in PvP I still see grenth form users around. rarely yes but they shall make a comeback one day. and of course some sins who don't even use melee, they are more rather spikers or healers. sure they're not great healers but then again extra help helps. as for offensive casting dervs they live as spikers mainly, shadow stepping in and unloading then shadow stepping out to recharge and even one where you shadow step in THEN cast all the enchants then unload then shadow step out or go suicidal with death nova and burning speed as well as others. so yes, you may be seeing the wrong type of dervs and right now they are still like how the sin first was, over-used and over-popular and this usually results in idiotic users who don't know the first thing about GW. as for PvP a dervs role was never to tank it was meant to take out as many people with you as you can and last as long as you can while doing it. you will die but you will at least have taken as many people out as you could at the time. mesmers can go against ANY profession with the right build and they too can fall to a dervish or warrior since they are not invincibile either. warriors can tank mainly just as paragons main role is a last defense tank as well as party support. an assassins role is to spike and take out key members of an opposing party while rangers act as artillery. Mesmers are to stop offensive casters and such while the monk acts to heal. the ele is to cause as much damage a possible while the monk heals those he parties with. the ritualist aids in both combat and defense by summoning spirits, forging spirit weapons, and using urns to boost his own power while the dervish acts as the frontline offensive force. the necromancers job is to create problems for the enemy, either through minion or curse. Each profession has a specific job and it is our duty to find out what it is, how we can do it, see if it can be anything else, and perform well while having fun. Personally I do not know if you are just having a bad day, week, month or year or if you are just frustrated at losing or not having your way or you are slightly xenophobic, especially about new anythings that become popular because you are non-conformist. I find the dervish, of all classes, a solid and fun profession. if you do not like it still, then fine that is your opinion but I hold mine as it is and no persuasion can deter it.

im glad you have a strong constitution Chaoskirina, an no, im not trying to sway your mind. i have been having a bad month with all of this depressing testing lol. i only play dervish myself when im doing certain personal test, in which i have np winning in whatever arena/pve, but its when im fighting other dervs, and my team disposes of theirs so fast, its not a challenge. you use a lot of the basic roles for each class, and explain how the dervish can be multiple things, making it super versatile. they may have some versatility, but so does every other class. i see your points though, and im not really in the mood for counter points or debating today, so all i'll say is im starting my last testing phase, which with be HA PUGS with derv frontliners, to see how good they fare.. i mean.. you dont go to HA with zero knowledge of the game.. er.. at least im hoping.. so we'll see. thanks again Chaoskirina

So despite that I've proven several of your claims of a Dervish wrong, you brush it off as if it didn't happen and continue to post it as if it were fact. Not all of your post mind you, I'm not really concerned about your opinions or continued dislike of them. But issues like "anything can shutdown a Dervish" is just completely untrue - this was already covered and you did nothing to disprove it.

Also, your concession is accepted on every point in my last two posts, that you just skipped over offering no resistance too. Coincidentally, most of the former post was about Scythe damage, and in the latter post I proved that you were completely wrong (probably because you had zero evidence) and that the Scythe in fact has the highest DPS over anything in the Warrior's arsenal. And even though the scythe can hit for pretty low, it can also hit very high and will hit, on average, for higher than either Swords or Axes, and not much less than a Hammer.

The last part was just to show yet again why anecdotes, especially in RA, are useless as proof for anything - cause it can be used to "prove" anything.

Note: Reposted cause something weird happened... duplicate deleted.

i'm not going to keep going back and forth with you because no one else has really had the chance to say how they feel. if feeling like you're right or whatever makes you feel good, its not like i care. i dont have a problem with dervishes, neither do any of my friends/guildies/allies. thats how it is for us, seemingly most people, and that's the end of story. if you dont like that, make a point to try and help other not so good dervishes play better instead of trying to make them sound invincible. ALL classes can be shut down, and dervishes make it a little easier for other classes, because they have a good bit of weaknesses. explaining one or two specific examples of how a derv can survive one spike, or one rip, or one or two hexes, isnt anything like a real battle, where the dervish wouldn't even be thought of as a threat half of the time in our cases. i didnt feel like linking the dps url in my post about scythe damage, but if you do some research, its pretty easy to find on here. i dont see what makes you so dead set on "winning" the general post, or "proving" me "wrong", seeing as it's my opinion and experiences seeing/observing the dervish community, and i'm not saying i'm "right" other than what i see.

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