No Option For 7 Heroes: Gaile Grey

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Zinger314
Zinger314
Debbie Downer
#1
Here's an interesting post from Gaile Grey which had been a heated discussion in Riverside and Sardelac a while ago...\

(Note: The original thread was about allowing a full Hero party in Hard Mode)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile
have spoken with the design team, and they do not intend to increase the number of heroes in a party either for normal mode or Hard Mode. As I have said before, the maximum number fulfills many design objectives, and the primary reason for not making a chance is that the team does not want to disincent someone from playing in a party with other people, and the change requested leaves little doubt that this would occur. Secondary reasons include but are not limited to: Not being able to control the number of heroes which results in the inability to use them as intended (having them sort of be "super henchmen" without the delicacy of control and an essential interaction between leader and heroes), or, if used as intended, having an extremely cluttered interface that makes it difficult to play the game with ease and enjoyment. (That of course could lead to the request to alter the interface to use the number of heroes that is in fact higher than intended, and that is not planned nor part of the schedule, obviously.)

I have read the comments that players have made about this subject, and more important, the majority of those on the design team have done so, as well. I discussed this with James Phinney, Lead Designer, and he said that the team fully understands the arguments that players have made in support of allowing more heroes, or all heroes, in a party. They are aware of the suggestions as fars as having a cobbled system with controls for some and no controls for others, or modifying the way heroes function, or making changes to the interface to allow full interaction. However, the final decision on this matter was made by the design team prior to release of Nightfall. So do be assured that the designers have read the comments, concerns, and suggestions on this matter, but with a clear and comprehensive view of the overall game, and out of respect for the vision that they have and must champion for the game, they have no plans to make a change to the number of heroes controlled by a player.
The original thread, and the stem of most of the suggestions for 7 Heroes in Hard Mode relate to the difficulty and cookie-cutterness of Hard Mode. And, more importantly, the lack of people attempting Hard Mode.

And ArenaNet's primary reason for not allowing 7 Heroes is to create more human-based groups?

Yes, because there are always 8 people looking for Eternal Grove HM or Hell's Precipace HM. The fact that people would want to do these missions solo with 7 Heroes means that they are idiots and anti-social. [/blatantsarcasm]

Another interesting comment was about Heroes being "super henchmen." Do you know what a "super henchman" is called? Average!

*zing!*

The logic is shaky...but it's not our fault that no one plays Hard Mode...
Ravi
Ravi
Frost Gate Guardian
#2
Three simple steps take care of this:

1) Get a buddy with heroes. (the leaves us with 2 players 6 heroes)

2) Get Thru The Mission / explorable area

3) Stop complaining about every little thing.

No game is perfect zinger, if u get this thru ur head the pain will go away lol
Aera Lure
Aera Lure
Desert Nomad
#3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
The original thread, and the stem of most of the suggestions for 7 Heroes in Hard Mode relate to the difficulty and cookie-cutterness of Hard Mode. And, more importantly, the lack of people attempting Hard Mode.

And ArenaNet's primary reason for not allowing 7 Heroes is to create more human-based groups?

Yes, because there are always 8 people looking for Eternal Grove HM or Hell's Precipace HM. The fact that people would want to do these missions solo with 7 Heroes means that they are idiots and anti-social. [/blatantsarcasm]

Another interesting comment was about Heroes being "super henchmen." Do you know what a "super henchman" is called? Average!

*zing!*

The logic is shaky...but it's not our fault that no one plays Hard Mode...
I agree that this is pretty disappointing, and the logic fails on a few points.

If Anet wishes to promote our playing more in groups than with Heroes/henchmen, then plaease put in place some of the suggestions I, and I am sure some others, have made regarding Party Search and hard mode support in comments in Sardelac. Its excrutiatingly difficult to find other hard mode players as it is - this is why, precisely, some wish to use 7 heroes.

If they wish to discourage our playing in Hero-majority groups, why can we play with two players and the rest Heroes? A great majority of hard mode teams I see do this and its not all that different than playing with a full 7 Heroes, since this is with 6.

Why are 7 Heroes disallowed but Heroes and henchmen combined allowed? The implication is because henchmen are inferior. This is true: one only has to look at their skill and attribute combinations to see that henchemen are designed, when taken in combination with this quote, to be not terribly efficient on purpose. Its long past time henchmen got halfway intelligent skill and attribute assignments. Even if we cant use 7 heroes, there's really no excuse for Icy Veins having 6 soul reaping and the many other examples we can cite that put serious limitations on henchmen abilities.
d
dragonslayerfight112
Ascalonian Squire
#4
I do hard mods whenever i can, i really do not understand where you are coming from. I see at least 3 or 4 groups attemptimg hard modes in most missions
Skye Marin
Skye Marin
Jungle Guide
#5
I can't really say I've seen this as a glaring error. I've come to think that there is similar logic between only having 8 skill slots, and only having 3 Heroes in your build at any one time. It would be nice if there was more, but it is what it is. That's hardly an argument I'd use to change someone's oppinion about the issue, but it makes sense in my head.

If you can't find 8 people, you could probably at least find one other person with a set of heroes of his own. That other person could even be a guildie.
Aera Lure
Aera Lure
Desert Nomad
#6
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonslayerfight112
I do hard mods whenever i can, i really do not understand where you are coming from. I see at least 3 or 4 groups attemptimg hard modes in most missions
I have never seen this. Once.

Its rare I find someone else to do hard mode with to take three other Heroes, let alone the shock of finding a full team of humans, which happens once in a blue moon.
A
Antheus
Forge Runner
#7
Quote:
Another interesting comment was about Heroes being "super henchmen." Do you know what a "super henchman" is called? Average!
Still better than average player...
Aera Lure
Aera Lure
Desert Nomad
#8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antheus
Still better than average player...
Actually, so far, in my experience, human players in hard mode are far better than henchmen. The human players I have pugged with in hard mode have been great. Taking henchmen along instead has been less so.

I wish Anet would back up what they say in that quote by Gaile and actually support hard mode players finding each other better through improved Party Search and some other support in hard mode then. Let's see them do that. I'd honestly be happier anyway. Its just if they dont do that, they're leaving hard mode hung out to dry imho. My experience has been more like Zinger's - finding two or three people even willing to play hard mode in most any mission location takes up most of my online time, if I even get lucky enough to get a group together. I'm quickly losing faith in it completely.

Here was my suggestion in Sardelac for better hard mode support. Some ideas anyway. As a last resort failing any of those, I did mention the allowance of 7 Heroes - if they didnt actually do any of the other things - particularly global Party Search would be helpful.

I'd rather they did some of those things than allow 7 Heroes, but since they havent supported hard mode at all, or fixed Party Search, it would have at least made playing it better and more possible when no one else was around. I dont suppose the amount of people playing hard mode is actually going to increase any. If there are many who do, I cant find them - which was much the point.
Phantom Gun
Phantom Gun
Frost Gate Guardian
#9
7 Heros? Sorry but no way. It's hard enough finding a group of real players as it is. Especially if your build isn't one of the "popular ones". I admit I like the heros. It's nice having them around for quests and stuff. For missions though I like to group up with real people. If I wanted to play solo all the time I would play a single player game. I think 7 heros would pretty much kill PUGs all together.

Even with 3 heros on most of the missions in NF I mostly see people standing around afk with their heros and some henchies. Sure I see a few people running around lfg, but sometimes it isn't even enough to make up a group. So I will have to disagree with allowing more then 3 heros.
T
Theus
Jungle Guide
#10
Boy.Was I stupid for being excited about Hard Mode.I thought it would be different from regular PvE.Instead of having to Hero/Hench everything I can finally play in a group of other human beings.

Hah..was I wrong.
Kool Pajamas
Kool Pajamas
Forge Runner
#11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antheus
Still better than average player...
So true. Yesterday I tried a pug for some nightfall mission for the heck of it, and we failed twice. I decided to go back to hero/hench and mastered first try. So sad.
T
Tahlia Tane
Lion's Arch Merchant
#12
Sigh......... some of you guys are just... too much.

I honestly hope ArenaNet or Gaile won't think the majority of Guild Wars players are like... you guys...
T
Theus
Jungle Guide
#13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Gun
7 Heros? Sorry but no way. It's hard enough finding a group of real players as it is. Especially if your build isn't one of the "popular ones". I admit I like the heros. It's nice having them around for quests and stuff. For missions though I like to group up with real people. If I wanted to play solo all the time I would play a single player game. I think 7 heros would pretty much kill PUGs all together.

Even with 3 heros on most of the missions in NF I mostly see people standing around afk with their heros and some henchies. Sure I see a few people running around lfg, but sometimes it isn't even enough to make up a group. So I will have to disagree with allowing more then 3 heros.
Why do I get the feeling you only made this post on the topic title,and didn't actually READ the Original Post?
Aera Lure
Aera Lure
Desert Nomad
#14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahlia Tane
Sigh......... some of you guys are just... too much.

I honestly hope ArenaNet or Gaile won't think the majority of Guild Wars players are like... you guys...
Be more specific as to why or how? You arent exactly being helpful.
Phantom Gun
Phantom Gun
Frost Gate Guardian
#15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theus
Why do I get the feeling you only made this post on the topic title,and didn't actually READ the Original Post?
I read the whole thread. It's just my opinion on adding heros. Not really the whole post.
Diddy bow
Diddy bow
Furnace Stoker
#16
i think it would be far to easy to complete this game with 7 heroes, so im glad its limited to 3. I do however think that most human players are better than hencies, hencies are bad but they are reliable.
scottyboysn
scottyboysn
Ascalonian Squire
#17
I really get a kick out of them saying it would reduce players playing with other players, especially when you can have a full party with 2 players and 6 heroes. All the extra heroes would do for me is replace henchmen, not people. Who is really concerned about the henchmen's feelings? Come on.

I've really been frustrated latley trying to get my Guadian of Tyria title. Every single one I've completed has been with heroes and hechmen. I've TRIED to complete them with human players (if I can find them), but not once has a human team managed to stay alive. It's a miracle I was able to do Aurora Glade with heroes=/ Sanctum Cay? Forget about it. I've been trying to find a party for a week.
K
KikiRae
Ascalonian Squire
#18
I really wish they would let us have 7 heroes, but then again we do get spoiled.
Bryant Again
Bryant Again
Hall Hero
#19
Soooo...

...What was the reason we can't have 7 heroes? I saw none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
*zing!*
If that's how you got your name, then 10/10.

Edit: Wait! I just saw this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile
...the primary reason for not making a chance is that the team does not want to disincent someone from playing in a party with other people, and the change requested leaves little doubt that this would occur
Too late, thanks to henchmen.
I
IlikeGW
Jungle Guide
#20
I don't know if 7 heroes makes sense (you could probably beat all the missions in a couple weekends like that) but there's an absence of solution to get people to party. I've stopped caring about the HM titles because there's no way it's worth camping in mission outposts waiting for groups.