Mesmer and SR changes June 7th update.

One only has so much free time in the day, but thank you!

I had contemplated going into depth further, but my eyes started to bleed (figuratively) from reading through wiki page after wiki page.

But to comment on that briefly. I mentioned that unless you specifically loaded up with the three Necormancer 25-energy skills that each cast AND recharge in 4 seconds, you actually have to TRY to run out of energy from Spamming 25-energy skills (as from that point on, you have total cast+recharge times of six seconds for one skill, 8 for a few more and then the rest over 12 seconds each.)

As to the other professions' Primary attributes (in terms of energy, since that's what we were discussing.)

Mesmer: Fast Casting only increases the rate it will go through energy in a given time frame.

Elementalist: Assuming we go with a single-element build, you will have a lot of energy to deal with (my Fire Nuker tends to have about 93 energy). Elementalists also have a larger number of 25-energy skills compared to Necromancers AND have to deal with Exhaustion. Though, I find myself constantly using at least 2 energy management skills to maintain any bit of continuity.

Monks: Divine Favor doesn't necessarily apply to energy directly, but it does offset it since you don't need to cast as often if you heal for more. Monks tend to be more reactionary-based (with few Prot-builds aside.) You only work if there is a problem. Often enough, the only E-management I need to run on my Monk is Channeling. The only times I'm pressed for energy is if I get hit with a lot of E-denial, or the other monk (in large parties where people think 2 are required) gets into lots of trouble due to party over-aggro, lack of abilities, or bad luck.

Ritualist: With the possible update to Weapon Spells via Spawning Power, it will reduce the amount of spells needing to be re-applied. Also, if you run a Rt/N build you need to raise minions less if they have more life (negligible if you are an Rt/N Minion Bomber.) The recharge on spirits tends to exclude it from a health-based conversation on creations.

If I get a few more things out of the way today (and my eyes stop crossing! ) I might give this another long post based upon others comments. Other than that... my fingers and eyes need a rest.

Edit:

One thing I noticed after I posted this from YOUR edit.

I agree with you completely. The reason I stated it, was WildmouseX made the claim that "again you are ignoreing the fact that many, in fact most of the necros usefull skills are 15-25e" and that s/he burns through up to 61 energy in five seconds or less (and that the energy due to SR: 59 on average in 15 seconds, eludes to "so wooptie do we gain enough energy to throw 2 more skills.") Ultimately, that was the reason for my long post, simply refuting that claim.

ya my monk almost never has to worry about energy. with so many powerful 5e spells that can be spammed... the only time energy is really a problem is in escort missions heavy with conditions and hexes (like the third major afflicted battle of vizunah square with them coming from all directions). other than that, rarely if ever below 25 energy. oh, except when using rebirth of course. but that doesn't really count as its used out of combat to recover from a near-wipe.
if you want to look for imbalance based on not worrying about energy, monk is probably the direction to look.

ele energy storage is more of a buffer, and 1 of the energy management skills is also really fragile, your attument.

the ss/monk build u posted shows up something which says how good sr is.

the monk has 1 and a half energy management skills, necro has none.

a better compairison is necro vs mesmer.. spell costs roughly the same (10-15e) but u have shit in class energy management

The monk will be spamming the necro will not, that explains the barred energy management perfectly. At best the only spam you will see coming from an SS is copied SS but with a 2 second casting time and a 10 second skill recharge a monk could get off what...5 ZB's in the same timeframe as 2 SS's? Of course they need energy management its 2.5 times the amount of consumed energy on spam.

Yes necros have lousy in house bar-able energy management for curse/blood. If you take death or slug it out with SoLS you are somewhat better. Can't touch inspiration though, mesmers will hand necromancers their asses in in-class energy management.

Edit: Heres a mesmer build, since I agree with you a monk is not a fair comparison nor is it a good example for spamming/energy management purposes.

Me/Any Dom

(Before we get started the build calls for 9 Fast Casting which will be applied to the casting times and will effect the averages) I specifically chose this one because it included Arcane Echo as a common element.

Energy Surge 10e/ 1.3sec/ 20sec
Energy Burn 10e/ 1.3sec/ 20sec
Spiritual Pain 10e/ 3/4sec/ 30sec
Wastrel's Worry 5e/ 1/6sec/ 1sec
Arcane Echo 15e/ 1.3sec/ 30sec
Auspicious Incantation 5e/ 2/3sec/ 25sec
Ether Feast 5e/ 1.3sec/ 8sec
Resurrection Signet N/A

(Averages 9e/ 1sec/ 19sec)

Difference here to a necro is that on this bar you have a spammable offensive spell as well as an energy management spell. The mesmer primary arguably does NOT energy manage if anything it actually COSTS them energy to use FC. That completely explains the need for an energy management skill on the bar. The skill recharges are at least on par with a necro in this example but the average cost of spells is significantly less and FC will of course dramatically reduce casting times. The two classes are fundamentally different in scope so even this isn't really that great of a comparison.

Everyone wants an MM. You'll easily get accepted into groups if you do that. If you mean DoA and the like, Necroes get invited into there, too...But if you're pugging such missions, then you're asking for trouble anyways.



If your whole "minion army" is compromised of Bone minions, then that's a problem.

I'm just confused as to how my Necro is "ZOMG NERFED" now. I'm still having fun with him, he still is a great MM...What's the problem?

You underestimating the damage is what made me reply.
With the three hench team I had back then my minions died fairly fast even with Verata's, often keeping the amount not going past ten. Yet the damage was enough to go through Oro bosses.

"Minions are not great for damage, period. That has always been the case" indeed.

So which is it? Was the nerf needed because necros were overpowered, or are they still just as effective as before the nerf, and the nerf did absolutely nothing? Can't have it both ways, folks.

Yeah.... umm, I was referring to before the SR nerf - the MM nerf was long enough ago that I thought it was obvious I was talking about after that. I guess not. I'm sorry, I'll try to be a little more clear to the hard-of-understanding among us.

Seriously. I H/H'ed the 2 Gandara missions in HM the other day, with Jurah set up as a Jagged Bomber. It was as trivial for him to get and maintain a full minion army as it was for me to get Masters on both. Appeals to comparison with other classes/builds hold no water when necro still works so freakin well - and in fact is basically irreplaceable (at the current level of functionality) in many situations.

MM is the least effected of all Necromancer builds for one very simple reason.

Animate Bone Fiend 25e
Animate Bone Horror 10e
Animate Bone Minions 15e
Animate Flesh Golem 10e
Animate Shambling Horror 15e
Animate Vampiric Horror 15e

Some combination of a few of these are going to be on any MM's bar and these will also probably be the most expensive spells. Lets say you spec Soul Reaping to 10. Something dies and you will gain 10 energy and a corpse. Right off the bat 2 of these spells are essentially free. Then that minion dies, you gain 10 energy again. With the exception of Bone Fiends you are now in at least a +5 energy benefit net.

If you are still having troubles Consume Corpse is a wonderful thing, but MM's should be the least hit by this change to Soul Reaping.

That may be the case. If so, then it proves that SR is still amazingly effective. MM is the build that is most 'sensitive' to gaining energy when something dies. The necro must have enough energy to raise a minion when a corpse becomes available, otherwise the build doesn't function. If the effect of current SR functionality is minimal on MM, then SR must be working fine.

actually due to minions providing full SR benefit on death, MM isn't so bad compared to some other builds. though the timer is still completely stupid. thats why I advocate removing the timer and making 0 energy from miniions and spirits, make it balanced all around and fun for all.

17 pages of the same "I can't spend 150 energy every 10 seconds, waaaah"

Well played gentlemen. You have mastered the art of beating a dead Reeves. (Horse)

How about you learn the bigger picture of the game and actually learn something about a business.

"Worst decision ANET has ever made" somebody stated earlier in the topic... I found this absolutely hillarious, and sad at the same time, that people can be so ignorant.

/QQ

Thats not a support to SR's functionality in any way. Just look at the figures I posted and then consider an MM is TWICE as likely to hit 5 second SR windows...once on mob death and a second time on minion death.

did you bother to read most the thread? a lot of it isn't that people think it didn't need nerfed, but that 1) other things needed nerfed more, and 2) the timer is just dumb and annoying. Oh, and a couple pages worth weren't even about soul reaping. Mind pulling your head out of your ass for a few minutes?

I'm not seeing your reasoning there. If the MM is twice as likely to catch the 5s window, it's also twice (at least) as likely to miss out on energy because of multiple deaths within the same window. In fact, the MM probably suffers the most since minions tend to die in bunches in a lot of situations (especially in NF with dervs running around).

MM works = SR works

If we are talking about the new "leaked" implementation you may have a point. If we are talking about the 5 second timer you are wrong. Take your necro out and run whatever you want, go ahead and load the bar. Run around in a regular H/H team setup.

Now take the same necro out and have an MM in the H/H group. I promise you your energy returns will be dramatically improved. Twice the deaths will dramatically increase the odds of hitting those windows. Maybe double was hyperbole on my part, but they will be vastly improved.

MM is just different. MM necros and other necros are practically different classes. in fact, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to put most the hexes and stuff in a different class of sorts that has a different primary attribute thats more fitting.... (like gain energy when hexes you cast end?)

Yes, there are more death events with an MM around. More chance to hit a given 5s window, as well as more e-less death events. MM also has the highest e-demands and most time sensitive requirements for the resource. Wasted deaths hurt the MM more than other functions, since new corpses potentially grant no energy to exploit them. I don't even notice the timed limit on e-return running other builds. Maybe my tactics coincide with dropping 1 target every 5s.

So after the in house trials of Anet, the decision appears to be that the necromancer should be relegated to the role of MM while blood/curse based necromancers are having to fill slots in their bar for energy management. The current "change" appears to have been written by the legal team.

Lots of people who religiously play MM's have had to use Consume Corpse as an added buffer. There is even a very well done guide by Carinae on the benefits of the skill as far as barred energy management. This tells me there are particular builds or circumstances where even MM's are still having problems.

Well we got SS dropped to 10e which is a small victory. I would love to see FoC fixed but due to past abuses I don't see that happening. Blood is not quite as bad off as curses are but its still not as good as it was. Death is the obvious winner of the pack, no question. If Jagged Bones went to pre-nerf ability then Death would be the absolute winner.

Necros would still be getting huge frickin' heap loads of energy back in PvE, so we'd have to decide on something to do about that. I like the proposed pip gen idea, so far it's like the only thing that sounds reasonable.

We'll never know because I doubt ANET will throw us a bone on it, but I would think taking the spirit wording from the "leaked" change and adding minions to it would dramatically effect necro energy gains. Removing the 3 in 15 part of course.

Spirits may not play a huge role in PvE as far as extra energy gained but minions or pets definitely do. B/P would be hurt...not crippled but hurt and in the other thread this particular team build has been referred to as the PvE counterpart to Spirit Spammers countless times at this point.

Please... I was talking about the damage. Unless I have overlooked bone fiend nerf, a necromancer with ten bone fiends back then is equally powerful damagewise to a necromancer with ten bone fiends today.

Perhaps I can explain it in private messages if it's still too hard to understand.

So wait, are you saying you purposely limited yourself to only 10 bone fiends back when you could have unlimited? Maybe you should message me, that makes no sense.

the argument about other classes, isn't in terms of energy (on our side anyway), it's in terms of the fact that none of them have to carry skills to do what their primary attribute is supose to do... mesmurs don't have to bring skills to cast faster; monks don't have to bring skills to make their heals heal more; ele's don't have to bring a skill to make their E-bar bigger..

but because everyone who plays those classes have to carry e-managment skills because their primary attributes do other passive things, they get the right to run around hollering that the necro is automaticly over powered because that's what our primary does for us?

first off, i'm not the one claiming 61 energy, you are - and yes, i supose i could get rid of all my attribute runes, and viggors, and stuff that is usefull and just stack up on attunes and radiant insigs - then ok i can see 61 energy... but guess what, I (and most anyone who is going to play the necro competently) am going to buff the attribute my skills are in, i'm going to buff my SR, and i'm going to wear a vigor. and make a set of armor that helps me fill my role, instead of armor that lets me brag about how much energy i have.

secondly, you're 59 energy on average 15 seconds guestimation, is based on the false 15 second discription update, that was never implimented, and deleated quickly.... so that's -20 from your precious calulations, putting us back to 39.

and lastly, you're the one that assumed there was spaming going on. there's a difference between stacking curse's and spaming... stacking is where you pile several curses on a target, so the one that's doing the most damage won't get removed - spaming is what el's do with searing flames.

if as a hexer (either necro or mesmur), you are not casting 2-4 spells right in a row at the start of a fight, then you're not doing your job properly. what's the point of putting a curse on a target, if you're just going to leave it there out in the open for the first monk, mes, or necro that comes along to remove from their pal?

here's my curse build


[skill]channeling[/skill][skill]Spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]reckless haste[/skill][skill]accumulated pain[/skill][skill]epidemic[/skill][skill]desecrate enchantments[/skill][skill]defile enchantments[/skill]


that's not a spam build, in fact the only skill that can be remotely considered to be spamible is epidemic.

i use to carry a second cover hex before the nerf, but had to get rid of it for channeling. 5e for channeling at the start of the fight, 15 for SS, 10 for reckless haste... there's 30e out of my 51 energy pool right there. AP +epidemic for a little condition spreading is another 15, efectively spending all the energy that channeling and regular energy regen builds up... then i find someone with a healing enchant on them and fire off the two AoE desicrates for my final 20 E..... this, combined with the rest of the group doing their jobs, usually drops 3-5 monsters in PvE.

- before the nerf, i'd get enough energy to throw SS (and maybe A.P. if my mes also hexed the guy i'm targeting) when they finaly got done rechargeing, and i'd get my bar filled at the end of the fight. after the nerf i'm luckey if i can throw SS a second time, and have to make everyone wait while my bar fills up when we're done. - - it's not a spam build, i'm not out there trying to be super energy spam man. all of the 15-25 recharge times make sure of that. - it's a normal hexing build with a couple of AoE enchant counters.


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I actually like that build a lot.

I'm not sure how high you are running Illusion (Inspiration could really be set to 3 or 4 and channeling would work just fine). I would recommend you replace the second DE with probably Images of Remorse which is a cheap spammable Illusion line degen hex. You won't get the area spike from the second DE but you are also free to pepper more single targets at will instead of waiting for a painfully slow skill recharge.

Edit: Something else I cycle into my N/Me is Phantom Pain, which could also fill the slot for Accumulated Pain or replace a DE. Instead of relying on hexes it would automatically deep wound after 10 seconds on top of degen which is always nice. I'm also a big fan of Conjure Phantasm but it seems like your playstyle is spiking and mine is degen.

Great build though and I think I am actually going to add that to the ones I use!

Oh yeh.... well i have hax and I have 50 pts in each attribute and have all attributes. When I use Unnatural signet, you just die instantly. Oh, and now it casts rly rly fast. Like.. as in instantly. Sucks to be you.

eh not really. keep in mind necros have a relatively small energy pool compared to elementalists and a lot of monks, so a lot of the "huge frickin' heap loads of energy" would just go to waste.... 50 energy is still two 25e spells, unless a few things die in the time it takes to cast the second spell. and with minion energy gain removed, that means you only gain from what you or your team kills. believe it or not that will balance it out a lot more than you may think.
Now I'm not completely against a pip system, but due to the way pips work it would also need some raw gain as well, as someone else suggested.
but to be honest, direct gain with no timer and no gain from minions or spirits seems the most natural way to do it, the most lore-fitting way, and the way that can best keep it simple and fun. hey, can even nerf it against undead if you reeeeally want to nerf it more. maybe a description that reads "For every point in soul reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a living creature dies around you."

uhhh ok.... sounds like you're a hard mode monster >.<

I use to carry remorse instead of the extra DE, but it was just too spamy and i wouldn't have energy when i had a juicey target to use DE on. same with phantasm. usually i only play curse with guildies, which usually already has 2 degen/interupt mes's, so i changed to help cover AoE spikes.

the accumulated pain + epidemic is real helpfull in keeping the AI monks busy so they don't heal themselves while the rest of my team pounds on em - it also encurage's them to throw a few healing enchants so i can hammer out my DE's.

my attributes are curses 16 (12 +1 +3), illusion 10, inspiration 6, and curses 9 (6 +3)... i use to have SR at 13 with the superior SR; but since the nerf this has been a better use of points. - over all it's a realy fun build, but post nerf you should to expect to be wanding it the last half of the fight.



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I'd like to point out that some of my Necromancer builds don't use any Soul Reaping points at all. They work fine.

Saying "My Necro is fine after the update, that means it's okay," is... stupid. Not every build requires the use of your primary attribute. I can easily play my Minion Master build without using Soul Reaping. Does that mean Soul Reaping is fixed? Does that mean I'm an elite player? No, it means nothing.

Get over it.

That said, Soul Reaping is broken. And it has nothing to do with whether or not your Necromancer is aching for energy or not. Moving on.

Thats a victory for mediocrity.
It is A.nets was of catering for bad caster players.


The difference?
Its "one build just plainly sucks and the other one is pretty darn good", right?


yep the monks ARE overpowered. i dont really like that fact BUT since we only have 2 classes that enable the fast pace of GW - i call it the necessary evil.
you WISH you had those primaries - but in pve they really don't do as much for a caster as SR. ES can be duplicated with -1 e-regen items while FC is a neat gimmick and is really easy to get used to but once again - it really doesn't do nearly as much for a caster as SR.
and you can actually test that yourself - load up your mesmer/ele builds ON your necro and they WILL work!
but sadly - the other way around:
either doesn't work or has serious issues!
seriously - a necro will nuke as good an ele - the only difference is the fact that one can't use runes BUT in a age when players will rather pick added hp instead of those +3 damage - they are becoming less and less important!
and wasnt the huge problem of necros the fact that pvp abused HB with high SR for doing things that actually offered an alternative to a monky?

and no - necros aren't overpowered because of practically not having to worry about e-management (heck i use SoLS as SELF HEAL primarily!) but because the skills that are available to them are REALLY good!
curse are the best pve hexes, minions are just a class of their own for the most part of the game and its only blood that has some issues because of the way its designed.

Oh please tell us how (without depending on another character to constantly use BiP or BR on you).

As for changing SR just look at the "Soul Reaping Changes" poll, 42.22% : Soul Reaping should give no Energy from spirits, but work as it used to. The next highest preference is at 13.90%.

im not sure how he does it, but a mesmer secondary and a couple inspiration skills can provide more energy management than soul reaping, and its a lot more reliable now that SR is on a timer... ether signet and an appropriate elemental mantra can work wonders. kinda funny that a mesmer secondary attribute works better for energy management than the main energy management primary that does absolutely nothing but energy management...

Surprise! I am! And I am coming to a Halls or GvG match near you sooN!


UPDATE: Sunday, June 10th, 2007
Added hard mode level 45 monsters named Rahja the Thief into GvG battles as well as Hall of Heroes battles. We thought this would make things more interesting and help PvE and PvP interact a bit more. Good luck players! <3 ANET.

what you call funny, is what the rest of us have been calling frustrating for 2 months now. if players can see this, how come the dev's can't seem to figure it out? my primary attribute should be more helpfull to me then useing skills from my secondary class. no other class is being forced to supliment their primary like this.





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Ah, yes.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. Which one do you think that is?

And Necros don't have to bring skills to gain energy when spirits die (if we're continuing the trend of mincing words) or energy management skills in general. It is a choice, after all. Soul Reaping isn't meant to make Necromancers free of energy management concerns, it's there to make it a lot easier. Divine Favor doesn't make a Monk free to not have to use skills that give health (Smiters asside, of course.)

You don't HAVE to bring energy management skills. That is the nice thing about Guild Wars, no one skill is required. You just have to then realize you can't constantly burn through energy. (My monk for instance, as I said before, doesn't not need e-management skills except for PvP or "worse case scenario" PvE situations.)

Indeed, I listed an example before.

You might want to double check how I listed it. 2-3 Attunement runes. That allows for your Superior Rune, a Minor Rune and a Vigor Rune (Thought that results in a total energy of 59, as I said prior.)

Well, at least you are trying to discredit SOMETHING. Seriously though, as I said, you still get access to your Superior/Minor/Vigor slots.

And that would be a high energy load out. Typically I will switch the leggings and chest insignias for armor (with the off-hand having an armor as well to push to 75) This results in 54-56 energy for more "general" situations.

Well, considering the 15 second SR change is what started this thread, and what was fiercely debated, that is what I talked about. If I wanted to talk about SR in general, Countesscorpula has a very huge thread already in action.

But, if you wish to speak of more current matters (and hopefully this doesn't derail the thread) We're looking at 19.66 energy every 5 seconds (~6.66 energy from the Pips, 13 from a person running a Curse/Blood/Death only build (adjust to slightly less if running multiple)) - which over a 15 second span is still 59 energy.

Well, I was attempting to find a method in which someone burns through a lot of 54-61 energy in under five seconds with little to no other details provided to me.

Going with GuildWiki's definition of Spamming, which refers to low energy spells being cast frequently, so that is why I referred to high energy spells when I stated it (and several spells as well.) If my use of the definition caused a confusion, allow me to clarify, that my intention was to define using several skills in a short period of time (similar to how an assassin quickly runs through a combo.)

With the definition I was going on, they are essentially two sides of the same coin.

Very correct.

We were running on two similar yet different definitions of the word. But as to your build in general, I want to note one thing, that you have no 15+ energy skills (since SS has not been updated to show it's 10 energy cost) although you did state earlier how "many, if not most" of the good Necro spells are within that high-end range of energy.

First of all, remember SS only costs 10 energy now. So for your example you use 25 energy in a burst sense (I'll use that word now instead of spam to avoid confusion), roughly half your energy. This takes 5 seconds, chances are nothing is going to die in this time aside from minions who were already going to die or maybe a nature spirit (So 6.66 energy gained, with perhaps a hit of Soul Reaping.)

-Next you spend roughly 2 more seconds with your Deep Wound spreader (nice combo, btw.) ~2.66 energy with perhaps a hit of SR.

-I'm assuming then, while waiting for SS to recharge you repeatedly cast your two Desecrate Enchantment versions while continuing to use Epidemic to unsure everyone still has Deep Wound on them. (Let's say roughly another 5 seconds, so ~6.66 energy plus perhaps a SR hit.)

One run through of your build costs 60 energy over a rough 15 second period of time. Let's assume that your Necro has at least two foes in the area (the target, if no one else, and who else you'd be spreading the condition with) so that's 12 additional energy.

So in the 15 seconds you've spent running through your build once, you've spent 60 energy and gained 28 energy plus up to 3x whatever your SR was at (SR of 11 would let you break even.) If there are more foes in the area, you've gained even more.

That is of course theoretical. We're not taking into effect any E-denial, dazed, interrupts, etc.

Personal, I think that's a very viable build and I don't see how either version of the SR change would affect it any more than any other Necro (which is the point of the interval gain, one is lead to believe.) This is just your contribution, assuming there are 5-6 others on the team also damaging the monsters in the mob. So, if the monsters don't drop because of you, then perhaps a combined effort drops them. Or perhaps, you have to wait a few seconds until they die, upon which you can start again. Then again, if things aren't dying, it doesn't matter what version of SR we're talking about.

Agreed, though I don't really see that you are unable to use SS again when it recharges. Going with the model I show, as long as you take into account there may be set backs, you'll have the energy (again not including factors like Dazed, E-denial, etc. as those will affect any and everyone.)

Only if your skillbar was wasteful. Necro spells are pretty hefty in cost, and since you don't have to devote any slots for e-management you can just go crazy.

Here's how pre Soul-Reaping nerf was, to help your grasp of it. Notice that this is energy gain NOT from minions or spirits:

Are you trying to get banned with that fake signature ads or you just don't care?