Mesmer and SR changes June 7th update.

there are two key problems

1) under the 5 second rule, there are many times where the necro get's denied energy all together. for a quick example, a ranger spirit dies right as battle it begining and the necro "gains" energy while his bar is full - the group then drops 3-4 of the mob in 5 seconds, leaveing the necro with 0 energy to fight the last 1 or 2 baddies that are left.

2)the necro's primary attribute is energy replacement... the Monk isn't required to bring skills just to get the extra healing from devine favor. the Mes isn't required to bring skills to get the benifit of fast casting. the El isn't required to bring skills to get the benifit of energy storage. - why the hell should we be forced to carry skills to get the benifit of soul reaping?

christopher reeves could still function after he was nerfed too, you think he didn't have any problems with the way he functioned from that point on?





there was no actual changes, for whatever reason discriptions were changed with the last update - we all got in an uproar because they were more retarded then licking an electified flag pole in winter. - A-net said woops and removed the discriptions.




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This reminds me when Anet nerfed AoE and made monsters flee from it. Good times...good times...

Make the game a little more challenging for everyone and everyone complains. I'm sorry you can't walk through zones anymore. Adapt your builds to the changes and everything will still be okay.

You do know he's dead right?

no he cant since you missed the little fact he died you little red engine




no he died so i see no problems

to compare a game balance to a severe spinal injury and death shows that you are so out of touch with reality it isnt funny.

jerk

no i hadn't heard he died, i changed my statement to past tense.

to the guy who called me a jerk, then deleated - it is a just comparrison... a caster class, who's primary attribute is supose to reharge their energy and is broken to the point where it doesn't do such a thing is crippled, just as he was after his accident.

I do think that the old Soul Reaping was overpowered (there was a time when everybody went crazy when ANet capped the MM's maximum number of minions too, people said that 50 minion armies in PvE was not overpowered...). However, I don't like the change they made to Soul Reaping because the energy gain is very random.

I would prefer dead enemies to give x arrows of energy regeneration for 5 seconds rather than y energy every 5 seconds. That way there is a hard cap (the natural 10 arrows of regeneration maximum). To keep a consistent energy/sec with the current soul reaping system (the current one can give up to 3.2 energy/sec at level 16 soul reaping whereas the maximum 6 extra pips would only give 2 energy/sec), we can add in a base energy gain of one or two energy per kill along with the extra pips. Something like this would give about the same amount of energy/sec, but people would be more satisfied because the energy doesn't come in spikes and it doesn't seem like a crappy work-around fix.

MM builds are much tighter than you think and "cool stuff" isn't usually included. Anyway, minions damage output is often completely irrelevant because their function isn't specifically damage output. In higher level areas you make minions to serve as body blockers and distractions while the rest of your party does their thing. MM's do not have a damage output as high as a SF Ele, even before the nerf, because minions don't deal a fixed amount damage per second and even though they give you energy when they die they aren't a reliable source of energy. SF Eles might have to dedicate much of their bars to energy management but SF is a strong, consistent build. Also, most builds are really only 3-4 skills with the remaining skills being supportive skills based on the preference of the user or whatever task needs to be done.

btw...here's my MM build...please tell me where the "cool stuff" is...
[skill]Animate Flesh Golem[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of The Master[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Healing Breeze[/skill][skill]Heal Area[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill]

[QUOTE]it is still there not gone just changed to avoid the banbat forwhat i really think of the comparison.

you have really lived a very sheltered real life to be able to toss out a gem like that

If I'm playing my Necro, and the group I'm in drops 75% of the mob's creatures in less than the first 5 seconds of battle... I'm not going to worry about my energy.

Secondly... how do you manage to burn through up to 61 energy in less than 5 seconds?

I believe under the current SR description and the perhaps-future one, you still gain energy. So thus, it still functions as an "Energy Replacement" attribute whether you bring skills or not.

Say you start with upwards of 61 energy (very possible), then in the 15 seconds of gaining three hits of SR (at 13) you gain 39 Energy. Also, in that 15 second period you gain 20 Energy from just your 4 pips.

That's a possible 59 energy, in 15 seconds or less, every 15 seconds.

You are effectively refilling your energy bar, every 15 seconds, by doing nothing other than being by things that die. No skills needed. How can you complain about the energy regain potential of SR?

Psst... SF, being elemental damage, gets hit the same. (Except that uber 14 DPS of burning, lawl) And you can't work around it with barbs/mark of pain or such.

In areas with alot of bunching, SF probably does more damage... but you need at least 3 eles or an outside burning source for even 1 eles' SF damage to matter. And the pre-factions MMs were vastly more ridiculous with 20-minion armies.

yes I am aware of that. The post was in response to another post saying protective spirit is working as intended, and the post was about other things being far more overpowered than soul reaping, which makes soul reaping almost underpowered by comparison.

1) depends on the enemy. 2) the rest of the MM bar is to keep the minions from dying in 2 hits while still trying to keep himself alive, despite the main minion heal sacrificing his own health.

ya? and one monk can keep a group alive better than 4 tanks. powerful heals for 5e cost give them this ability. one warrior can soak up damage better than 4 mesmers. one 55 monk or earth ele can make up for an entire team of 8 against a lot of creatures. how exactly is a bit of energy regen on necros overpowered again? with the exception of SS (which can be removed without doing any damage) and a couple powerful minions (which die really easily and if the necro dies go wild and attack the team), the necro doesn't have a lot of damage potential. and with the exception of a minion factory, they have almost no defense. so really, how is a necro overpowered when compared to things like protective spirit, stoneflesh aura, sliver armor, mystic regeneration, etc?

the reference to Mr. Reeves was uncalled for, but your point is true.

I know, lets all gang up on Wildmouse because he made a bad comparison! Especially since everyone here consistently produces ironclad flawlessly logical arguments that don't contain personal sentiment. Get serious, and cut the poor guy a break.

Wildmouse has a valid point we have argued in the past even if he had a bad analogy. If his reference to Christopher Reeves is all you can find fault with you should reconsider whether or not to post. His point (as argued in the other thread numerous times) is summarized as follows:

1. Wiping out a large pack of mobs in 20 seconds will max out your bar and overflow it wasting all the extra energy which does not get "banked".

2. You will have to wait for spells to cast AND recharge during that 20 second window so you aren't going to be machine gunning anything.

3. If you successfully wipe out the pack of mobs in that 20 second window the fight is over and you won, once again the additional energy goes to waste.

4. The current revision of SR punishes nuking in a similar fashion to what the old one did. Rather than having it hit a maximum energy bar capacity cap they implemented a hard cap completely removing the potential for abuse due to scheduling.

I was wondering where all the bickering over Soul Reaping went, looks like I found it. I know its tough to wade through a 144 page thread but trust me everything being argued in this thread has already been beaten to death.

Well, we'll beat them again bro. (literally, because they are poor losers there)

Has ANet officially commented on its SR definition change and fast retraction?

Thanks!
TabasocSauce

Here's how I used to go through Oro before Verata's Sacrifice nerf.

Yeah, Devona and Virulence really rock.

...Tanks can heal? I don't know what you're trying to say.

Not in every area. They would *truly* be overpowered if they could solo whole campaigns.

A "bit" of energy regen isn't much of a problem. A huge friggin' shit load of energy IS. I'd quote Mendes from the SR thread but hell no, I'm not going back into that warground.

Look into more builds. SS is just one of the most powerful, and due to stupid enemy AI, MM is one of the most helpful.

As it should be with all caster classes.

Prot. Spirit overpowered? That's an awesome skill, dunno what you're talking about. Without it we'd be pretty borked in many cases. Silver Armor is very risky, since you're not always target by enemies. SE Aura is in Earth Magic, which sucks. Mystic Regen.....I smell a nerf coming to that one.

I'd also like to point out that it sounds like you're saying "How come they're nerfing necroes but not solo-farming builds?".

So er... where's the problem here? Your energy is maxed, the mobs are dead... ... o.o;

I do agree with you on one thing though: everything in this topic has been said multiple times. So... If someone doesn't understand why necros are fine by now, they probably never will. /Finished with topic with this, sitting back and watching for the humor from now on.

You basically agree with everything I said according to this. There is no problem thats the point! Everything is dead so "unlimited energy" is not a unbalanced game issue. Thats precisely the point. Anything you get in surplus is either wasted due to the bars cap or you won't be able to spend because everything died in a 20 second window and casting/recharge will fill that time up. Its collectively called the necromancer "tax".

Yes everything has been beaten to death, there really is no need to re-address the same tired old points.

playing a necro as a mm you generaly don't start throwing spells untill things start dyeing, the series of event i discribed could happen 15-20-30 seconds into the fight, as long as you haven't had a chance to cast a minnion spell it's still valid.



where the hell you finding 61 energy for a necro? my radiant set net's me 50. with half of the necro's curse's costing 15 energy, and have 1 second cast times, burning though 60 energy in 5 seconds is not only posible, it happens.



just because you believe something, doesn't make it reality.

again you are ignoreing the fact that many, in fact most of the necros usefull skills are 15-25e - a balance mechnism that's been in place since the start of the game. - so wooptie do we gain enough energy to throw 2 more skills., when an el, mes, or monk can throw an e-management skill and get the same ammount of E, but useing 5e skills.

not only do we have high energy costs and extreamly long recharge rates that were intended to balance the massive ammounts of energy, we now have to deal with those without the energy.


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hey sometimes you have give people a way to bitch about what your saying when they can't argue aginst the logic.





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I'm bored. That's why I'm commenting on this.

I'm also at the WoW forums, too. Seriously, go to general. There is NOTHING but QQers in there. Funniest shit eva!

OT, but dude...tell me you've seen the funeral crash video on youtube that took place in the middle of a PvP zone set to Misfit's - Where Eagles Dare. Absolutely hilarious!

Lmao, now I did!! Aw man, look at all those HKs...And a Gnome was leading the way . That kills me.

yknow... after playing some more today I'm beginning to realize just how overpowered searing flames/rodgort's invocation, and liquid flame really are. take a necro down in 2 seconds. haven't seen a necro take an elementalist down in 2 seconds yet... give the necro some nukes that big, then we'll talk about nerfing a random stream of energy, eh? when you factor in lower damage, and still being hindered by cast and recast timers, having energy regen isn't all that. and with a smaller pool, exhaustion is a killer, and DP as well.

Next, will monks be complaining that they can't take a warrior down in a few seconds? You're a necro, know your role.

i know my role. the problem is those that call for a nerf don't. they seem to think necro is some big damage powerhouse that is overpowered, and that simply is not the case.

low-end pvp?
factions breed of a necro touchy.

pve?
MoP+Barbs+SS + melee heavy team = dead Torment parties in seconds

the problem is that the necro IS easy mode of GW.
and now it got harder.
and some players don't want to OR are unable to adapt to that fact.

was/is SR overpowered?
yes!
if there is one thing one can count on in pve its deaths. and turning deaths into energy (passively!) is just insanely sweet for a caster!

is the new version better?
no. the timer is idiotic.

was the change needed?
when playing a non-necro caster - yes! it was just too good of a primary compared to all others. SURE it would be nicer if other caster primaries were buffed - but that's not the way a.net works.
when playing a necro - it was actually sweet! overpowered things never stink! unless they are used against me!

as some one who plays all classes, I see that as more of a grass is always greener scenario. theres times necros wish they had 100% half cast time instead. theres times necros wish they had more than double their energy pool instead of regen. theres times necros wish they had health gain whenever an enchantment ends. theres times necros wish they had half cost on all skills. no matter what class you play, there is always going to be something another class can do that you can't, and something you can do that another class can't. necros can keep up a minion army. elementalists can nuke nuke nuke and not have to worry as much about exhaustion or DP. healers can single-handedly keep a whole group alive with 5e spells.
yknow, my monk actually had to worry about energy less than my necro did. does that mean monks are overpowered, since the only reason people say necros are overpowered is because they didn't have to worry about energy?

I wasn't talking about before the MM nerf, which by the way, I was actually for. MMs were once heavy duty, and were nerfed down to a more balanced style of play with the 10 minion limit and Verata's Sacrifice becoming essentially useless. Doesn't have anything to do with SR, though.

My necro is fine after the nerf. What's up?

Rock paper scissors. GW is not balanced on 1v1. Unless you're testing this in some other way? I am yet once more confused.

and my warrior, monk, elementalist, mesmer, necro, ranger, ritualist, assassin, dervish, and even paragon were fine before the nerf. whats up?

you're missing the point. but that doesn't really matter, its doesn't need your understanding i guess.

Ok, I would be interested in seeing how this "15-20-30 seconds into the fight" scenario would play out, as the one you initially proposed, and the one I commented on was a battle in which 75% of the enemies drop in the first 5 seconds. Until then, I can't comment against anecdotal evidence.

Base Energy (20), Inherent Armor Bonus (10), Radiant Insignias (8), 5^50 Wand (5), Off-hand (12), 2-3 Runes of Attunement (4-6)

Total: 59-61 Energy.

Blood Magic:
(16) 5-Energy Skills
(16) 10-Energy Skills
(5) 15-Energy Skills

Curse Magic:
(2) No Energy Skills
(10) 5-Energy Skills
(23) 10-Energy Skills
(7) 15-Energy Skills
(3) 25-Energy Skills (2/3 of that being Elites)

(Thus your "Half of Necro's Curses cost 15 Energy" statement in actually applies to less than 23%)

Death Magic:
(15) 5-Energy Skills
(17) 10-Energy Skills
(6) 15-Energy Skills
(2) 25-Energy Skills

Soul Reaping:
(1) 5-Energy
(1) 10-Energy
(1) 15-Energy

No Attribute
(1) 5-Energy
(2) 10-Energy

Overall
(6) No Energy
(43) 5-Energy
(59) 10-Energy
(19) 15-Energy
(5) 25-Energy

Out of 132 skills, ~82% of them cost 10 energy or less. 4 Energy gain skills, 2 of which are elite.


Monk
(9) No Energy
(59) 5-Energy (many of which give -1 Energy Regeneration)
(46) 10-Energy
(11) 15-Energy
(2) 25-Energy

Out of 127 skills, 90% cost 10 Energy or less. 8 Energy Gain Skills, 5 of which are elites.


Elementalist:
(0) No Energy
(48) 5-Energy
(52) 10-Energy
(25) 15-Energy
(8) 25-Energy

Of 133 skills, 76% of them cost 10 Energy or less. 13 skills for energy gain, 7 of which are elite.


Mesmer
(12) No Energy
(33) 5-Energy
(60) 10-Energy
(19) 15-Energy
(2) 25-Energy

Out of 126 skills, 83% are 10 Energy or less. 28 skills give energy, 5 of which are elite.


Ritualist
(5) No Energy
(43) 5-Energy
(31) 10-Energy
(13) 15-Energy
(7) 25-Energy

Out of 99 Skills, 80% are 10 energy or less. 10 skills give energy, 6 of which are elite.


Summary (% of skills greater than 10 energy)
Ritualist 20%
Necromancer 18%
Mesmer 17%
Elementalist 14%
Monk 10%

Necro's aren't as taxed on energy-heavy skills as one might lead others to believe.

Either you missed my sarcasm, or you're arguing that Soul-Reaping does not yield energy? (Which by definition it does.)

Below is where the above statistics start to come into play.

There are 24 Skills in the necromancer line costing more than 10 Energy. With the except of 2 touch/bite skills, and Order of Apocasty the shortest "cast to cast" time (read: spammable) is six seconds. Followed by a couple at 8 and then many above 12.

If you are depleted your entire energy within 2-3 skills in 5 seconds, you are casting nothing but 25 energy spells (and you don't see a problem with free spamming of 25 energy skills?)

It will take you roughly 4-5 seconds to cast said pair of 25 energy spells. Then another 6-45 seconds (unless you are using the aforementioned skills, though you are likely a toucher ranger if you have 2/3 of them and thus not worrying about energy costs.). I'm pretty sure in that time you can regain your energy, since you are able to gain around 59 energy in a 15 second span.

Now if you have 4 or more 25 energy spells (25%+ of those available to the entire line) on your skill bar, then no, you will probably not have the energy to continue to use them frequently.

This IS that balance you talk about next.

Elementalists deal with exhaustion, and have nine more 15+ energy skills than Necros.

Mesmers have three less 15+ energy skills compared to Necros. Then, of course, the mesmer deals with the gain and loss of energy (in either the self or enemy) and the ability to shutdown other players in trade for the raw damage that other Professions hold. (Very useful in PvP, but petition-bait for PvE, it seems.)

Monks have eleven less 15+ energy skills than Necros. They only have 3 energy management skills (one of which is very situational) if they don't wish to sacrifice their elite.

Ritualists (keeping in mine they have less total skills as a non-core class) have more 15+ energy skills, by percentage, than Necromancers and four options for energy-gain if they don't wish to dedicate their elite for it.

You only lack the energy if you lack the planning, OR have occasional bad luck (If an e-denial targets you, in PvE or PvP, it will be a bad day.)

You don't NEED to fill your bar with High Energy, Long Recharge (HELR) skills. One or two, sure, but then we have so many lower energy and quicker recharging skills at our arsenal as well. Mix them up.

If you know your group is going to be killing 75% of the monsters in the mob in the first 5 seconds and this interferes with your energy level... wait 5 seconds, and then use it against the remaining 25%. If you were the one responsible for killing 75% of the mob, dance a jig, because your energy was well used. Now it's time for the other members of the group to do something... unless you want to be able to kill 100% of mobs quickly by yourself.

As to your vague 15-20-30 seconds into battle scenario... You've either already cast your HELR spells and are waiting for them to recharge (so cast the lower, quicker ones...) and gaining 12-16-24 energy respectfully from just your 4 Pips (not even counting SR) or you haven't done anything yet, in which case you have up to 61 energy at your disposal.

---

What many people fail to understand is the days of the Mega Minion Master are over. Minion caps limited that, the Verata's Sacrafice change limited that, the BotM change limited that... and to a degree SR changes limited that. My heroes have absolutely no problem maintaining 10 minions despite the fact that I don't have any minion-healing skills for them.

Did I enjoy the days of having 30+ minions during the Stoneskin quest, and ~20 in general? Hell yes! Would I be thrilled if they reverted back to those days? Yep! Do I think it would be balanced? Nope.

Did I love being able to spam High Energy spells like there was no tomorrow, so long as bodies were hitting the floor? You bet, it just wasn't balanced.

Don't try to compare yourself to a Fire Nuker... they are just going to win. That is what they do. The Necromancer does not, by construction, fit into the Holy Trinity of RPGs (Tank, Nuker, Healer.) They are a roundabout profession, requiring a little imagination and careful attention.

There is a HUGE difference between not having to focus on energy management, and not having to have any concerns about it. One is balanced, the other (while fun) isn't.

Nope, there were overpowered after this nerf of theirs. I don't know what you're saying (again).

I'm asking to understand how you're comparing apples and oranges. Two different classes, two different purposes. Eles blow shit up cus that's what they do. If there were sooverpowered that would be the only class anyone'd role, ya? Not to mention that enemy AI runs when there's an AOE.

Thats a lovely analysis Does-it-Matter, but how about factoring in casting times and skill recharges? You are only looking at one piece of a 3 part puzzle. Then you have to consider that mesmers have fast casting to offset their spells. Elementalists have energy storage to offset their energy costs. Monks have Divine Favor to provide healing benefit therefore having to cast fewer spells to do the same amount of work.

Edit: Also it should be noted that sure anyone can slap a bunch of 25e skills on the bar, it won't be a viable build under any circumstances. Yes this was hyperbole on your part but its still ridiculous. For the most part necro bars have 5e skills with the majority 10e and 1 or 2 15e spells tops, with a 25e being part of MM almost exclusively.

Minion Masters are also the least effected by the change of all necromancer builds and the damage can be somewhat easily offset by Consume Corpse of which Carinae has done a thorough in depth analysis elsewhere.

ele damage is more badly effected by armour than physical imo, as rangers and some ele armours have +al vs elemental, while physical its pretty much just warriors with +20al, but they pack high al vs elemental

SR works still, and provides alot of raw energy, sols is gravy too.

my olias runs sols, blood ritual (he uses it very, very well), fleshy, shambling, fiend, heal area, res chant

blood 4
death 15 (cheap major rune)
healing prayers 7
soul reaping rest

he does fine with it, and provides great support to monks/eles or whoever needs it

and if necros were so overpowered that would be the only class anyone would role, and that obviously was not the case. more people played warriors than necros, and a lot of other classes are more popular than necro too. as for ele... have you gone to high end pve? thats one of the only classes that gets accepted into groups for damage dealing. oh, and they seriously toned down the AoE nerf in PvE, its not as strong as it was before the AI upgrade, but its pretty damn close.

most elementalist damage is also immune the the effects of blind and blocking... some of the necro spells are too, but one good blocking stance will nullify a minion army...

Heres a ridiculously common necro build for you compared to a ridiculously common monk build...tell me if you can figure out the differences...

N/Me SS Nuker

Awaken the Blood 10e/ 1sec/ 45sec
Arcane Echo 15e/ 2sec/ 30sec
Spiteful Spirit 10e/ 2sec/ 10sec
Reckless Haste 15e/ 2sec/ 25sec
Enfeebling Blood 10e/ 2sec/ 5sec
Spinal Shivers 10e/ 2sec/ 15sec
Blood Ritual 10e/ 2sec/ 2sec
Resurrection Signet N/A

(Average 11.5e/ 2sec/ 19sec)

Mo/E ZB

Reversal of Fortune 5e/ 1/4sec/ 2sec
Dismiss Condition 5e/ 3/4sec/ 3sec
Zealous Benediction 10e/ 3/4sec/ 4sec
Protective Spirit 10e/ 1/4sec/ 5sec
Glyph of Lesser Energy 5e/ 1sec/ 30sec
Aegis 15e/ 2sec/ 30sec
Holy Veil 5e/ 1sec/ 12sec
Resurrection Signet N/A

(Average 8e/ 1sec/ 12sec)

I even gave you a more "fair" monk build with 2x 30 second recharge times and just look at those averages! You are honestly going to sit there and claim there is no necromancer "tax"?

This also says nothing for the fact that only 2 of the necro spells are actually spammable Enfeebling Blood and Blood Ritual...and there is no reason to spam them. That compared with at least 4 the monk can and will be spamming during the same time frame.

I just want to make sure you understand we have had this argument in the other thread already and it got nowhere.

Edit: Put rez sig on ZB to make it a 7 to 7 comparison rather than 7 to 8.