Mesmer and SR changes June 7th update.

How is this complicated? Do u fail at simple knowledge and logic? The change might be clumsy or inelegant, but complicated? WTF are you on?

hahahah!
Probably the worst argument I've ever heard. "Things die so fast that I have no time to spend energy, then I waste all my energy and I am dry in less than 15 seconds..." Priceless argument with stellar logic. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!

Again with your complicated argument. You are pretty dumb if you cannot comprehend this, and I would be shocked if this game started to get dumbed down because of people that think "It's too complicated". Go play WoW, or tetris (though the latter might be too complicated). Getting rid of game depth for the sake of simplicity and EZ mode is a joke in itself.
Using you logic, anet should change expertise so that skills cost no energy, because it is too complicated the way it is at the moment. I mean numbers, percentages, breakpoints and limitations. TOO COMPLICATED FOR ME!

As for everyone believing your solution is a perfect and simple fix, I think you are beyond saving.
Riverside scrubs all agree, therefore it must be true!
"My entire church group believes that evolution never happened, therefore evolution is a joke!". Right?

Much of the replies are only about how unfair it is that the necro gets "free" energy.

- The necro uses attribute points to gain this energy so it's not free.
- The necro has a lot of spells have a rather long cast-time and cost some energy as well.

Please remind that before you post about "free" energy.

[QUOTE]here is a newsflash for you.

the perfect simple solution suggested .............

just by co incidence of course..........

will have exactly zero effect on them when they go back to farming as they do not depend on what is being cut.

Plan? What plan? I'm just saying that if mesmers had that great of a deal that SR even in the new form brings... wow. Plan? No. Pointing out how unreasonably silly it is to complain because necros have it great but want more... yes. The amount of energy necros get simply because they invested in their primary attribute (which all classes should do...) is crazy. Hardly any true management required. Maybe they can't spam 25 energy spells like they'd like.

Neither can anyone else.

owned by guru.
Sorry for double post.

listen fruitcake, I'm not saying I don't understand it. i understand how it works just fine. Complicated in that it is complex, and doesn't need to be. is that so hard to understand?? no other class has to put up with a bullsh*t timer on their primary attribute. wanna nerf soulreaping? fine. but this timer is the dumbest excuse for a plan I've seen in some time, and simply multiplying the timer as a fix is even dumber. I've yet to see any real reason why the idea of no timer, no energy from spirits and minions wouldn't work. all I see from you is namecalling and attempts to make your epeen bigger. the closest thing I've seen to a reason is because of farming, but lots of classes have farming builds with infinite energy, like 55 monks and stone striker/mantra E/Me farmers.

im amazed that this argument is even still going abotu the update and the wording of soul reaping. It was recalled and even reported by ANET themselves that this was an error and is false. dont believe me?

www.guildwars.com click on update notes

read for yourself

uh, what? energy storage is the main attribute for elems, but elems still need on average 2 skills in their skillbar devoted to energy management.

yeah, but in all likelihood it is the proposed plan for next week's update. one can only hope that by discussing it here, anet will come to their senses and realize how far off they are...

umm correct me if im wrong, but isnt there currently a 3k post count bitchfest going on about this already that we need a sequel?

coudl be, but this thread is about all the update stuff that was leaked... soul reaping just happens to be at the forefront of the discussion at the moment

arenanet knew what they were doing when they added it to the description in the first place. people leak information all the time, but never in a game update. arenanet wanted to test the waters, and now they know what it feels like. the question is, are they dumb enough or smart enough to throw in the 'leaked' change.



Jayce Of Underworld

------------------------------------------------

Animate Soul Lich
Energy: 25
Cast: 3
Recharge: 0

Elite Skill. Animate a level 1...14 Soul Lich
at your location and you lose all energy. You
suffer -1 energy regeneration for each Soul Lich
you control. Whenever a Soul Lich you control
deals damage, you gain 2 energy.(Soul Reaping)

Soul Reaping
Whenever a creature near you dies, you gain
1...5..6 Energy Regeneration for 3 seconds
(Non-Stackable) and 1...5..6 energy (Stackable).
You gain half that amount/duration for Spirits.

Staff of the Necromancer
Energy +15
Energy Gain: 0.22 per each point in Soul Reaping
Halves skill recharge of spells (Chance 20%)
Energy +5 (while Health is above 50%)
Health +30
Two-Handed

Seriously man drop it. We know that, we are just arguing whether the changes that were accidentally implemented as text for the description are valid ones. And let's face it, they are the most likely change that are going to be made.

Angry nerds are funny
It doesn't (read: pip option), but it works better than anything else Anet has done.
No other class had an unlimited energy engine that passively produced more than 10 pips of extra energy regen.
The timer does the job at limiting soul reaping. It might still be inelegant, but not as inelegant as you think. Hey, don't get me wrong, I prefer the pip option, but this is a way better solution than pre-nerf soul reaping, 5 sec rule, or no energy from spirits or minions.
No it isn't. It makes it closer to the old soul reaping, yet some people are too thick to realize that. People were upset with the 5 second timer because they claimed that they experienced diminishing returns if they killed 2 enemies in less than 5 seconds. This fixes that issue, and when mobs are dropping that fast (more than 3 deaths in less than 15 seconds), do you really need to trigger soul reaping more than 3 times in that 15 sec interval. Everything is dying, and you would be on max energy already. Doing something useful and ending the battle at full energy should never happen, yet it happened loads before.
It would work in PvP, but it wouldn't in PvE because it wouldn't change anything. If you think soul reaping wasn't broken in PvE, then I think you are beyond saving.
I might be a bit too sarcastic, but I am trying to prove a point. Well, guess that's what we fruitcakes do
Have you ever played a necro in PvE? In PvP? Ever? Stop talking out of your ass.

Either way I'm not the one losing sleep over this (joking xD), so QQ more plz. Quote wars is pretty fun.

And no one else can cast as fast as mesmers, no one else can give that extra punch to heals like a monk, no one can lay down repeated 25 e spells or soak exhaustion like an ele... You can't compare the primary attribute of one profession to the general abilities of another. You can't, and shouldn't. If we could, why bother having primary attributes? Why bother having professions?

Not having constant worries about energy is the necro's strength.

Just like having little to know fear of interupts is the strength of mesmers.

Just like still having a decent E pool while being plastered with exhaution is the Ele's strength.

Different professions have different strengths. If you are so envious of what the necros used to have that you have to try to rip it down, then why don't you try making a necro. Anything else just sounds like spite coming from ele's who are tired of waiting around between mobs to recharge (guess they shouldn't be spamming 25 e spells either), or Mesmers who find themselves doing nothing but wanding after shooting their wad at the start of the battle and having no juice left to continue.

Quit fooling yourselves. Necros were not some uber class casting ZOMG power spells without pause. They are not dropping instant death at break neck speeds (like a Mes spike). Most of them rarely have an energy pool larger than 40 (Mine rarely makes it above 45) - which means two things... 1) Some SR triggers would not be achieved, and 2) Exhaustion will effectively cripple you.

Can you imagine if we could all choose from any attribute? I can see it now...

Fire Magic 15 - To Nuke like no one has nuked before
Fast Casting 10 - to cut my casting time by more than a third on ALL spells (regardless of attribute) ALL the time (not that piddly 20% staff mod)... But if I'm casting at 137% the speed, I'll run out of energy - so I better bring...
Soul Reaping 10 - to pull in the energy I slammed out at break neck speeds.

or

Fire 15 - see above.
SR 10 - to reap the rewards of the fiery death.
ES 10 - to ensure not a drop of SR is wasted.

or

Str 10
Marksmanship 10
Expertise 15

My God! Spamming Barrage at 2e a shot, with a constant 10% armor penetration. A warrior could get off, what... 15 shots before running out of energy? 15 armor penetrating barrages in a row *sigh*

or

Healing Prayers 15 - For the big heals my party needs
Fast Casting 10 - so i never have to choose who gets healed... just heal them both in a fraction of the time.
ES 10 - Now i can add in those big 15e spells and cast them like they were rain drops.
And maybe everyone else in the party can bring mysticism, so when my enchantments end, they get free health and energy too.

But this isn't the case. Primary attributes are powerful... well, most of them. That's why you can never have 2 of them. No primary attribute is fully equaled with any skill... nor should it be.

Worried about necro "unlimited energy regen"? Bring a mesmer with Arcane Languor (maybe add a few more skills that can cause exhaustion - for variety's sake). With a max energy pool of 5, all the SR in the world is going to accomplish nothing.
Or maybe bring an additional monk. No one dies (or dies rarely), no SR triggers - not so "unlimited" now, is it? Example - first crack at the overseer duo in Fort Ranik HM... I ran out of energy awfully fast because they... just... wouldn't.... DIE!!!

SR was not ungodly powerful in most circumstances prior to the nerf (and spirit energy). The reason it wasn't ungodly powerful is because while it has many strengths, there were already limits placed upon those strengths - slower cast times, limited energy pool (hardly anyone I know used the "infamous" 2x +15e/-1 regen weapon set prior to the SR nerf discussion opening several months ago, and most Prophecies armor didn't come in the Radient format until very recently), drawn out battles with low kill count.

The first (and probably main, if not only) reason posted to explain the nerf to SR was the synergy with spirits, and the exploits that resulted from said synergy. The vast majority conceed that this was a problem. No SR from spirits fixes this problem. "what about minions?" No SR from allied minions you didn't make solves that problem - while still allowing the basic MM to function.


I am just so sick and tired of this.

energy storage is just extra energy, not energy replacement - energy management is a replacement of energy... which is what soul reaping does. it's the only thing soul reaping does.





(check out mouse's zodiac clearence sale http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...06#post2892406)

no? what about 55 monks? one permanent enchantment, get hit a few times, and infinite energy. nothing even needs to die for it to happen. thats where the balance comes in with soul reaping, it gives absolutely no benefit until you kill something.

yes, I have. I play necro quite a bit. It was one of my favorite classes, but this timer nonsense makes it less of a fun experience and more of a mechanical min/max scenario of working around a timer. when did nomadic souls get watches?
now the question is, have you? sounds more like you're a bitter member of another class that just wants to hurt necromancers so you'll be more powerful by comparison...

oh, and before you ask, yes I've played other classes too. I've played em all quite a bit. rather than grinding for titles, I start a new character and learn all the classes.

so some eles are using 3 or more skills for E-Management? What the hell kind of skill bar is using MORE than two skills for e-management? If you bring only one skill for e-management, does that mean that "you can no longer spam 25e spells on recharge QQ" - like people have been saying to those opposed to the SR nerf?

If you think (and anyone else for that matter) that Pre Nerf Soul Reaping was so game breakingly powerful in PvE, where are your posts calling for the nerf bat before the nerf came into being?

yeah this says it all. pretty much almost all the things I've been saying on this subject over the past few months, all in one post. agree 100%.

Hmm...how about just about every Ele to play in the deep (and my standard build elsewhere as well) which includes Fire Attunement, GoLE, and Glowing Gaze? (don't respond with, "but glowing gaze does damage!!")

it does say it all, shame its only 50% correct...

You just compared SR energy gain to the 55 monk build, a solo build that doesn't contribute to parties in PvE whatsoever.

No, he's just a guy that pwns youngbloods about balance. Also, you're throwing your credibility down the toilet.

I was one of the many so-called PvErs that used to hate Mendes and the other "PvP LEETISTS". After reading his valient posts in the Soul Reaping thread (which is where this discussion should be) I eventually saw the light, and realized the complete overpoweredness that was Soul Reaping.

who can also spam searing flames and liquid flame and meteor swarm and other huge nukes with max fire magic and not have to worry too much about any exhaustion received.... seems balanced to me, as one who plays all classes *shrug* the energy management skills aren't always needed, they're just needed when using the high energy nukes. necros (pre-nerf) have good energy management, but they don't have any huge nukes and a bit of exhaustion will cripple them completely. It all works out in the end (pre-nerf).

You shouldn't have typed a long thread when these 3 lines are perfect summaries.
Now tell me this, do you think that not having to worry about energy, not fearing interupts, and having a bigger energy pool are the same or equal?
Worrying about energy is the primary concern related to playing any caster, and simply bipassing that is MAJOR. The whole depth related to playing a caster means nothing when you don't have to worry about energy. I'm not going to lie, but it disturbs me that you actually type "Not having constant worries about energy is the necro's strength" and think it's ok. It's not! This is where we are disagree. A necro should have to worry about energy! This is why I think the fundamental design of soul reaping is incorrect, and anything adding any sort of depth to the necro is a good thing. Our opinions differ because our experiences differ, I play an e-sport, and you play an easy and low budget PvE game.

Abuse of skill mechanics which rely solely on an enemy hitting you, which rarely happens if you don't want it to as opposed to someone dying (either your team or mob), which realistically always happens. If you really want to compare the two (which you shouldn't since one is a skill and the other is a primary mechanic) you should play a necro with 0 sr and no balth spirit (control), one with balth spirit with zero soul reaping, and one with no balthz spirit and 10 SR. Tell me which is better, the one that realistically provides more energy passively, or the one that ties down your secondary, limits your skills, is an enchantment that can be removed, and slows down your regen, all while only providing energy if an enemy hits you, which shouldn't happen.
Your argument is moot, give me a break. Infinite energy supply can be attained in very limited and risky situations with specific skills and professions, yet it was almost the norm with pre-nerf soul reaping in most areas of gw.

I have. Actually opened my necro's second birthday present yesterday.
As for being "a bitter member from another class", are you kidding? I am not part of any class, I am a player that uses classes as a tool to accomplish objectives in guild wars. I won many battles I shouldn't have in PvP because I chose to run some SR abusing build on a lame map. I've abused soul reaping and can honestly say that putting a hard cap on it will improve game balance. It will also make it less EZ mode in PvE.

I wasn't going to ask because it means nothing. A blind monkey on crack could finish a PvE campaign and claim they learned something. I asked whether you've played necromancer because some of your statements seem to contradict pre-nerf soul reaping, and I was hoping you were ignorant and inexperienced, not an idiot. Guess I was wrong.

GW PvE is getting worse because ANet panders to the bottom of the barrel. They make changes that makes it dumber and dumber. PvE was already so easy that half of your brain would have been dripping out of your ear to make it 'hard'.

Make it easy Anet - so the replayability is lower. The grind worthless. Give PvE the knife to slit their own wrist.

Check the PvP forums. There was a wonderful 10 page thread about it, where most people came to the conclusion that some variant of a pip system would be the best way to make soul reaping less abusable (which includes bulldozing through areas in PvE) all while maintaining a somewhat natual and reliable feel to it. It would be the ideal solution in my opinion, yet riverside might disagree because it isn't as good as pre-nerf soul reaping.

@ Bryant
This should be in another thread, but the discussion was already going on here and I felt like contributing.
Not sure whether to take your comment as a compliment (thanks ), or dismiss it as sarcasm
I'm done with quote wars for tonight.

Lol no man, I was serious. I can understand it being hard to tell, though, especially on these forums.

It took me sometime after being in that thread to get me to see that Necros were in fact balanced, not nerfed. Being a purely PvE player will do that to you, make you think craziness.

QFT Not a problem in PVE

by pip system you mean e-regen instead of e-gain? that would certainly be better than this timer nonsense, though e-gain as it was with no gain from spirits or minions would be perfect... completely keep it in line in pvp, and make it so in pve it only triggers after you kill something (or when a party member dies, in which case the team could really use the extra little boost)

i won't argue that maybe soul reaping was a little overpowered before the nerf, most of which was caused by gains from spirits and minions. but honestly, the timer is one of the dumbest ideas they've come up with. sure, it makes it less powerful and all that, but it also makes it less natural and not fit the game. and for anet to continue along by just multiplying the values after all the discussion and promised that they were really looking into it... if thats theyre idea of looking into it.... well, its just insulting.

For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a creature near you dies. You gain half that amount for Spirits. You can only gain Energy this way every 5 seconds.

No, ANet. Bad dog!

For each point of soul reaping, you gain 1 energy whenever a creature near you dies. You may only gain energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds. You only gain energy from Spirits you control.

What did I just tell you!? Bad dog! Badddd DOG! We don't do that there! You poop OUTSIDE! Go lie down in the kitchen!

I swear, that dog. And who has to clean up the mess?

For each point of soul reaping, each time a nearby creature or a spirit you control dies, you gain 1/3 of that amount every 3 seconds for 9 seconds. You can only gain benefit from soul reaping once every three seconds.

It takes forever to get the stains out of the carpet.

1: 1... 0... 0
2: 1... 1... 0
3: 1... 1... 1
4: 2... 1... 1
5: 2... 2... 1
6: 2... 2... 2
7: 3... 2... 2
8: 3... 3... 2
9: 3... 3... 3
10: 4... 3... 3
11: 4... 4... 3
12: 4... 4... 4
13: 5... 4... 4
14: 5... 5... 4
15: 5... 5... 5
16: 6... 5... 5

No spike of energy. When a new creature dies, the counter is reset to the first number. So if a spirit dies at 8 soul reaping, you immediately gain 3 energy. Three seconds later, you gain another 3 energy. One second later, a monster dies. You gain 3 energy immediately, and the old counter is broken. (You will not gain the previous death's 2 energy.) This continues until nothing has died to continue the cycle. This does not allow for spikes of energy to supply 25 energy skills, and does not provide an endless stream of energy. This also does not punish players when enemies die at the same time. Fixed.

This is just one of hundreds of ways to balance soul reaping that is not profoundly stupid. It took me literally 30 seconds to think this up. It may not be the best solution, ever, but it's much better than anything ANet can think of, apparently. (It doesn't take much intelligence to be employed by them, apparently. Just a lot of arrogance.)

What I don't understand is, if SR is generally fine PvP wise, then why even attempt to change it? If mesmers are fine PvP wise (hell, probably even overpowered) then why buff them for PvE? GW is a PvP centric game (this coming from someone who PvEs almost exclusively)....I mean, every skill balance has been centered around PvP, and Anet obviously doesn't really care about the SS skills, which are 2 months late...I feel like not enough PvErs were complaining about these professions (no one Mesmers in PvE anyway) and now that they decided to tweak it, there is an outrage. The only ways to make tweak these professions, especially mesmers, to what hte PvE community wants, would be to completely unbalance PvP, which Anet is obviously unwilling to do. From what I've seen of the Mesmer changes (that may or may not be what Anet is intending), they are basically buffing Mesmer mechanics that no one uses in PvP anyway, with the hope that people will see it as a buff. Unfortunately, the community isn't THAT dumb.

or make mechanics function differently in pve and pvp, which anet also seems unwilling to do for some strange reason...

Here's another variation. It took me a whole minute to think up. (I had to go look up how much energy you gained from energy regeneration.) Super hard. Super.

For every 3 points of soul reaping, when a nearby creature or spirit you control dies, you gain +1 energy regeneration for 3 seconds. For each separated rank of soul reaping, you immediately gain 1 energy.

I hate math... But behold!

Energy regeneration: 1 "pip" is 1 energy every 3 seconds.

PIPS....Every 3 seconds

1.......1
2.......2
3.......3
4.......4
5.......5
6.......6
7.......7
8.......8
9.......9
10......10

10 is the maximum limit of energy regeneration. Garsh, super tough.

Okay, actual math:

SR......PIPS....+ENERGY.........TOTAL
1.......4.........1...............+0 /3 secs +1
2.......4.........2...................+0 /3 secs +2
3.......5.........0...................+3 /3 secs
4.......5.........1...................+3 /3 secs +1
5.......5.........2...................+3 /3 secs +2
6.......6.........0...................+6 /3 secs
7.......6.........1...................+6 /3 secs +1
8.......6.........2...................+6 /3 secs +2
9.......7.........0...................+9 /3 secs
10......7.........1...................+9 /3 secs +1
11......7.........2...................+9 /3 secs +2
12......8.........0...................+12 /3 secs
13......8.........1...................+12 /3 secs +1
14......8.........2...................+12 /3 secs +2
15......9.........0...................+15 /3 secs
16......9.........1...................+15 /3 secs +1
17......9.........2
18......10........0
19......10........1
20......10........2
21......10........3
22......10........4


The only way to cap out your energy regeneration at +10 (so that you would be at a loss for energy) would be to use an energy regeneration skill.

Note: For bosses, which can have a soul reaping attribute beyond 20, and subsequently, a capped energy regeneration of +10, they gain any additional energy as pure energy. Or, they can go screw themselves. They're bosses, who cares about them?

{edit}: Forums hate tab.

Because as pointed out the other 938,745,903,674,056,837,604,686,566 times, this goes against the fundamental mechanic on which the entire game was based.....

You're asking Anet to design a completely new mechanic, when 10 sunspear skills are months overdue. It doesn't make sense for Anet to do that to a 2 year old game. Also, to be honest, there are MUCH worse problems with PvE than the fact that necros are getting slightly too much energy, and no one plays as a mesmer. Why Anet all of a sudden decided to mess with these things at all surprises me. Far more people are complaining about the state of the economy and the monster/NPC AI than are complaining about the lack of mesmers.

I play necro once in a while, I honestly don't even see what the big deal is about SR. If it makes them slightly overpowered in PvE , it doesn't really matter, individual performance hardly makes a difference in PvE. PvE is far too simple in GW for an extra 5 energy every 10 seconds or whatever to have a devastating impact on anything.

*shrug* they're already so far from what it once was... might as well keep it fun for all who play

and by doing so they create a new game... aka GW2.. who knew?

nah i don't really expect them to. I know they don't give a damn. but hey, its worth a 2 second try at it, right?
and I agree with you about nerfing SR in PvE shouldn't be a priority heh, it worked fine before, just so convoluted with their "fixes".
However for mesmers... I actually do play a mesmer. its one of my 3 favorite characters I think. I don't really think they're underpowered or anything, but the proposed fast cast on signets should be a good change in both pvp and pve
its really odd, their idea of balance. over the last couple years its just become a dance by anet where they let a gimmick build become flavor of the month, let it go on a bit, then nerf it into complete uselessness. let a new build rise up as a gimmick fotm, let it go for a while, and nerf it. and just continue indefinitely until the servers shut down, and in the end, its those who don't jump from gimmick build to gimmick build who suffer for it.

I don't really notice that at all in PvE because I primarily play as a Nuker, and not many nuke in PvP, so the skills I use are generally unchanged.

Anet basically has to do that, though. WoW is centered around PvE, and when there are skill changes, PvP suffers. Anet knows that they are not going to win players over from WoW with PvE, so they have to keep PvP in tip-top shape.

really I think guildwars beats WoW in PvE hands down... and on another note that guildwars pvp isnt all that, but eh *shrug*
the only main problem I have with guildwars at the moment is the way that balance and other changes are handled, and that's a big one. And one that will keep a lot of people from buying guildwars2 if anet doesn't step up their game and show more effort.