Dev Updates Today!

alrighty it looks like big 3 , 2 , 1 QQ spike to me.(well most of the thread does)
-thx Anet they dont fall for that, I will always welcome any change from you
guys even if somthing is nerfed to hell.
and to all QQers out there, - yes, builds on wiki dont work after apdates like this for a week or two - rofl.

ummmm no.
my monk doesn't, 5e spells and divine favor bonus see to that.
55s and earth farmers don't either, but then, they don't have to worry about health either T.T (yea 55s have skills for e-management but they're passive, set it and forget it)
and as has been said several times before, soul reaping only triggers when something dies. against big bosses with huge hp it is completely useless. (unless your team is dying all around you, in which case, you're probably as good as dead anyway)

ALthough i think the statement against spam will be a good initiative. Transferring them to trade channel and allow it there is not enough, they increase the scroll speed by 2 to 3.

I wish ANet would stick to their EULA and make it a bannable offense if it is reported. People will stop spamming if it actually causes u to be banned by report. It sounds childish and uncooperative. But remember it is not the ones who report who are responsible for the spammers being banned, no they only have to thank themselves, but i guess their egocentric mindset will not think of that, as it is direceted towards them not being to blame for anything.

I agree the armor cap is retarded.

This doesn't affect the E/Ds in pvp, they only use Armor of Earth anyway. However it probably screws over dedicated pve tanks and those of us who use team and individual combinations of the above skills. As for the main reason the cap was thought of, are paragon teams really that common?

ummmm yes, infact every class needs some sort of energy management not just casters.

Depends on what situation you're in. If I have to heal in hardmode, I must watch my energy (given Im not in a 3 monk team)

So necro farmers do have to care about energy? Don't think so.

Sorry, but that argument is just ridiculous. How many times do you have to fight a big boss in GW, compared to normal gameplay? Most normal (skill cap) bosses are down within a minute. There are only a few "big" bosses in GW, and you can prepare your skillbar for those rare encounters.
Besides, if your team is dying, that means the monks are out of energy too. So why can't you?

Do you think any other caster can get away with such a skill sequence:
Arcane Echo. 15 Energy
Spiteful Spirit*2 30 Energy
Reckless haste. 15 Energy
That is 60 energy in a short period of time. And then you complain you don't have the energy back fast enough to do it again? It's a powerful combination, and it was overpowered because you could spam it. Now you cannot. quit whining.

I love this update! Some great skill balances there.

A necro shouldn't have to worry about energy for the same reasons a Mesmer shouldn't have to worry about being interrupted and a Ranger shouldn't have to worry about needing to meet the full energy requirement of skills. It's the primary attribute. It's what makes the necro a necro, or a mesmer a mesmer, or a ranger a ranger. Any comparisons to other classes and their need for e-management is pretty much irrelevant. You can say SR seemed overpowered just because it seemed like a lot of energy, but you can't really compare it to anything to determine that.

What you can do is determine the overall usefulness of SR as a primary attribute versus the overall usefulness of other primaries. That includes all linked spells to said primary. If one seems more useful than another for its intended function, then it is overpowered.

Looking at all the primaries, and I distinctly remember a poll about this at one point, the highest useful primary [for its intended function] is....

Divine Favor.

Now, can anyone dispute this? Can anyone truly say that SR, in it's old form, is better at what it does than Divine Favor is at what it does? Consider factors such as:
1) Control - how well can the user actually control the primary?
2) Conservation - how well does the primary help with the cost of skills or replenishment of energy; and how much energy is actually saved or lost?
3) Abuse - how much can the effect of the primary be abused by secondaries?
4) Usefulness - how useful is the primary for the class itself; is there certain types of builds it favors more than others; and how often are the favored builds run as opposed to the unfavored? (ex: obviously any pure smiting build generally takes little to no effect from DF)
5) PvP Impact - outside of abuse, how often is the class and it's primary used in PvP?
6) PvE Impact - outside of abuse (in this case MM builds with BiP support like B/P groups), how often is the class and it's primary used in PvE?

Seriously think about these. I tried to pose the questions with as little bias as possible, fully aware that some favor the monk, some favor the necro. If anyone else can think of other questions when considering the overall usefulness of a primary attribute (within its intended function, necro is energy gain, monk is additional healing), please do add to it. If I'm correct, then DF is more overpowered than old SR. Let's see some evidence that isn't exclaiming that no other class has that much amount of energy gain - kinda obvious that is.

I agree. Armor cap should be increased or make so that your's enchantments only can call upon armor cap. So if ally puts a armor of earth it doesn't cause armor cap to occur. That way they promote team play.

If a class can load up their skill bar without having to worry about energy management, then there's something wrong. Should a necro have better energy management than other classes? Yes, and they do. Mesmers, Eles, Monk, and all other caster classes rely on their 4 pips of regen for the basis of their energy management. If they want any more management than that to run a basic build, they will need to have to take up skill slots. A necro not only gets the benefit of the 4 pips of regen, but also energy from creatures when they die. This gives them the potential to run a skill bar without needing to take a skill slot for energy management.

Does this mean that any profession that runs without a skill bar is overpowered? No, but skill bars without energy management generally have to make use of lower cost skills to do such. Necros have been able to run almost a full bar of 15 energy skills and do nothing for energy compared to something like a SF ele that might have one 15 energy skill and 3 energy (glowing gaze, GoLE, Fire Attune) management skills to run a build that even then can run into energy problems in long battles.

Imo, a balanced Necro profession should either have to run at least 1 energy management skill or at least take cost into account when making the skill bar. They should still have better energy management than most classes, but they should still have to take energy into consideration. Taking away the need to manage energy takes away strategy.

The armor cap is a bad idea.
Why having all these armor skills if you can't use them.
How can you use shockwave or crystal wave when you are dead with one hit of a warrior in HM. How on earth can an ele survive in DoA or HM with this armor cap? Having 5 monks in the team?
Or should we replace these skills by a running skill to run around like crazy chickens to avoid any damage?
Bye bye earth tank, bye bye earth farm builds.
Also the Stonflesh Aura skill nerf is not needed at all.

where exactly did you get that out of my post? thats not what I said at all. another poster said that all other casters have to worry about energy, and I simply pointed out that that is just not true. there are plenty of situations where other casters don't have to worry about energy, and yes, also plenty where necromancers do.
necros weren't really meant to worry about energy from the start, thats why soul reaping has practically no use except for energy management. other primaries that have to do with e-management have usable skills in their line that can do something other than manage energy. add in some reasons for a necro to have soul reaping other than passive energy management, then we'll talk about necros being so uber overpowered with their 2-3sec cast / 15+ sec recharge spells and "passive" energy gain when they KILL something. ooOOOoOoOo

edit: oh and I did notice a lot of necro farming builds have energy management skills built into them.... channeling seems to see a lot of use in N/Me farming builds

i really like the weapon spell buff for ritualists, very nice.

...Because you're using 5e spells. I wouldn't have to worry about e-management for a necro if all of my necro's skills were 5e as well.

Solo farming builds don't count.

Forgot to add that I actually look forward to the new SR change. It was annoying to have another enemy die just under 5 seconds. 15 seconds will be much easier to track, and is more reliable. Of course, we'll have to wait and see.

I never thought I'd say it, but I think its finally time to divorce PvP from PvE in terms of skill balancing. Have both use the same skills obviously, but the skills would function a bit differently and be balanced a bit differently in each. The play modes no longer work together such as to be balanced as one.

I'd say just go ahead and sever the ties already. Balance the skills for PvP play. The way SR works in PvP does not have to equal the way it works for PvE. Same goes for the armor cap issues brought about by Paragon teams. Hard mode is so completely different than the way PvP works that its becoming a problem trying to balance the skills for both environments simultaneously.

If I move to Battle Isles, the PvP skill balance text shows up in my skill list, as do the changes to my professions attribute functionality. If I am in PvE, I have that skill list text in the skill descriptions. The differences would not be huge and skills would more or less work the same in each application, its simply then that you can have a skill have a certain cost and recharge time in one context vs a different set in another. Same for the armor cap, same for the SR functionality. Ad infintum.

The result is more fluid, creative and graceful builds in PvE - less cookie cutter monotony - as well as more balanced and tightly built teams in PvP that rely on synnergy and careful planning and play to win - not gimmick builds exploiting flaws or lack of testing. As it is now, both sides complain of horribly unbalanced, overpowered, underpowered, nerfed skills and builds, and the glory days of times past when things were better. Its all a result of trying to keep the two perfectly in sync. I no longer think it is possible and the game suffers on both sides as a result.

To Archon.

You hit the nail on the head with one statement - energy from creatures when they die.

It stands to reason that as your skill increases, SR becomes more efficient. In PvE, if you are in a terrible PuG, then SR will not trigger because your party will be wiped out at first encounter. If you are in an awesome guildie party, then SR will be triggering all the time because you are knocking down Mobs.

The above analysis does not apply to PvP because the exploit mentioned involves controlling and scheduling the SR reward. Your statement implies PvE focus, so we can stick to that. Deaths are common in PvE anyway, as opposed to PvP.

That points to one conclusion - SR effect is directly based on player vs monster capability. If a player is winning, then your point of energy management is irrelevant - the player will win anyway, regardless of class because they are experienced or higher level.

On the other hand, if the player is not winning, then your point of energy management is irrelevant. You're out.

That is why SR balancing in PvE is nonsense - monsters cannot be compared to players and need advantages such as level 28 half cast super regen to challenge us. PvP is where SR balance comes in and can be measured.

As we went over for 100 pages in the SR thread - if Necros were more powerful/useful than other primaries, then where were the dominant Necro builds? That is what arcanemacabre is saying - they werent there, and we can safely state that the community is good at finding imba builds - see every FotM regular as clockwork in response to nerfs.

Necros did not need this nerf.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

how did you test this out when it was not implemented ? just curious.....

There was a time right before the SR nerf when many teams in HA were using necros as their primary and using other classes skills because of soul reaping. So yes it was a problem. People dont use necro builds in pve because in pve people dont care about energy management as much. After you kill a mob you stop to regen if needed.

An interesting note about imposing a cap rather than an actual nerf:

If a group is playing badly and nothing is dying, the cap has no effect. Pre or post cap, the gains are still 0 and the cap makes a total difference of 0 energy.

If a group is playing badly and only managing to bring down one enemy per significant amount of time, the cap has no effect. They will never hit the cap, so the total difference is at or near 0.

If a group is playing efficiently, a case in which SR was producing crazy amounts of energy, the cap kicks in and keeps the energy gain rate at a reasonable maximum. At this point, the difference is based on how rediculous the gain rate of a particular situation used to be. The final result is still extremely high, but not nearly as high as the previous excessively high number. Of course, high gains added to the fact that enemies are already dropping like flies means that even higher gains really aren't needed.

So you've just nullified your own arguement. If the players are as bad as you suggest, the cap makes no difference because they'll never hit it. And you've just stated that if they are winning, they would be winning anyway, so the cap won't stop them from winning. Those somewhere in the middle (like me) will occationally be nudged by the cap a bit, but not enough to really be effected except that I can't bring an extra spam skill to through around for no other reason that that I can afford to. Therefore in all meaningful cases, the cap makes no meaningful difference. It simply serves as a tiny bump in the road to (slightly) slow down a few steamroller builds (SS anyone?) that were silly and needed a nudge anyway.

I like most of what they want to change.

I'm only a bit dissapointed that they don't do anything against ritu-spikes now and decided to take a look a bit longer. It's quite annoying that every ritualist spike that sees that they are losing starts running around like crazy. I get a necro-spike deja vu.

Speaking of Hero Battles, you need to nerf priority on Pets...the mercenaries will ALWAYS go for them, even if u flag them and force them to follow you AND if you kill the pet. Heroes will go for them EVEN WHEN THEIR TARGET IS LOCKED (in some cases).

preach on im with you there, first you have one person destroying spirits and 2 people trying to get thru the maze of spirits bodies and rifts to get to their vital and one person to pressure their caller, all the while surviving overpowered spikes just to have their entire team kite with potent self heals until they get to a point where they can reassemble, then you can start over with hopefully a little dp on their vital and on their caller too if youre lucky, "hello half hour battle against an over powered spike, hope your prot monk and infuser had some caffeine theyre gonna need it"

!!!AMEN I been saying this for a LONG time...
but you know as well as I do. your statement makes sense and Anet will never do that..

well if u dont like it dont play......or step up your game and be the one to come up with the build to stop the hexes build....thats what good players do, they find a way around ANY problem that they face.

I feel that most of these mesmer changes were to hlep include more of them into PvE. (ever think of that)

they cant just focus on what u want. There are millions of people playing this game and they want the mass to be happy. Giveing them a better reason to play as a mesmer in PvE is a good idea.

and like i said if u dont like it dont play or find a better build(they come along all the time).....technically they wont lose any money from one or a small minority of players quiting

You made this reply to a member of [ugly]. They run balance. Telling them to come up with a counter won't just solve some imba skill balance.

I don't really think Pets need to be nerfed. I haven't played Hero Battles, but from everything I've read, it seems that this is a problem with the Hero AI. It certainly seems like Heroes need to learn to follow called targets, not just attack pets. I'd prefer not to see "Heal as One" nerfed simply because ANet doesn't feel like fixing the Heroes' poor AI. It seems like a really cool Elite skill for any Beastmaster to have. (Then again, I loved Enraged Lunge for my Doppleganger battle.)

I'd rather ANet not take the easy way out. I'd prefer if they'd actually deal with certain issues specifically rather than nerfing other things. Like the armor-stacking, for instance. I feel they certainly took the easy way out. They should have looked at all the skills affected and modified them individually.

I don't care what guild they are from. If you have a problem beating a build you solve it by coming up with a better one, not telling a-net they suck and need to fix what they can't beat. That is how the game is played, ever changing and everyone is always getting better and things get more interesting.

So like I said earlier if they have a problem with it then quit playing or find a way around it. (because obviously there is one. If there wasn't, every guild would run hexes, and every match would be won by a hexes build)

Quantum, the problem with the 5 second timer, or any timer, is that SR had congruency with the MM or corpse exploitation function of the Necro. When a target came available, a boost of energy was made available. Beautiful.

If as you say, a group is spot on and SR was producing crazy amounts of energy, then the team will win with or without a Necro. Likewise, if the team is going to lose, the Necro will not make a difference.

So that leaves the middle, which we have covered ten times over in the other thread - where were the dominating Necro builds? Your refusal to acknowledge the lack of Necro superiority speaks volumes - you are not critically analyzing the situation.

In PvE, the mobs are there to die - it is that simple. To be challenging and give the player a sense of accomplishment, but die nonetheless. Beating them by a wide margin, or by a narrow margin, is still beating them.

What we are telling you now, and have told you before, is that your armchair mathematical analysis of SR as being "crazy energy" is hyperbole.

We should worry about PvP because that is where people are matched in a controlled environment and feelings could get hurt. PvP players are not there to die as bots are. PvP drives game balance.

The crucible that is the PvE game where reality asserts itself as opposed to a calculator w/ "4.1 deaths per second = 672 pips of regen" nonsense, has shown that Wa/Ele/Mo are the 3 most efficient classes. I see no 'N' in there.

Nerfing the Necro Primary, what distinguishes it from the other classes, is not, has not, and never will be the right answer. ANet has fixed the exploit used in PvP, scheduling SR benefits - we all knew that was wrong. What you are confused about is the difference between a lab environment and field testing.

So yes, if SR gives crazy energy in PvE then good - the player is either very skilled or higher level than his bot opponents. In either case, they will win regardless of their class. The opposite is true as well, bad players will not win. So as Carinae succintly put it - "do not punish me for being efficient". It is not like everyone else does not have access, including the computer opponents, to the same skills. And funny enough, as you keep dodging, there are not a preponderance of Necros, nor did Necros displace other classes jobwise in the game.

If Necros needed a PvE nerf, then they would have been showing up other classes in PvE at their jobs, better Monks than Monks. They did not.

I have been saying for quite some time that this primary rewards asymmetric situations. You can nerf SR by upping the skill levels of enemies. ANet has acknowledged that they should allow for massed deaths, and they have. What a shocker.

I am still looking over the changes, and have not formed an opinion on the 3 in 15. But I can safely state that any timer is nonsense. They could also cap it by lowering the benefit, which would still be more simple and elegant than the timer.

So you should have given up on defending the first 5 second nerf, that went the way of the dodo as it should have.

Now see what I just did? I made a reasonable analysis - not quite a ground up but more than you have ever done. So, can you do the same? I have been asking for a ground up argument for the 5 second nerf you have been defending for quite some time now, and you have consistently dodged the question.

Well it looks like the 5 second nerf is now history. GJ defending it.

If you want to try the 3 in 15, go for it. You can spare me the quotewars though.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

100% true. 3 in 15 is better then nothing but more importantly, they finally KILLED spirit spamming, so the nerf was not in vain. Let us hope they just keep working on it until they come up with something that isn't a stupid recharge time but until then, 3 in 15 is fine I suppose.

Well then Oh Wise One,Let us know what skills that will actually win agaisnt Hex Builds.

Oh,by the way,Please.Be sure to use the Elite Hex Removal.It will be the major "Roflcopters".

He's a PvE nub and doesn't have a clue. Don't bother.

[QUOTE]than you are saying hex builds are dominating everything?
which guilds are running hexbuilds anyway?

Really? I'm not critically analyzing the situation? I must be hallucinating when I see all of the MMs and SSs steamrolling 95%+ of PvE. Those blood support necros must not be allowing groups to bring one less Monk and supercharging the offensive casters at the same time. I must be hallucinating when I switch into an outpost as a Necro and have multiple invites before I'm even done loading in difficult areas.

Yeah, Necros really aren't superior... Well, unless you count Dervishes, Paragons, Assassins, Ritualists, Mesmers, Rangers in most areas, Warriors, and Elementalists that aren't running SF. I guess they're less popular than Healing Monks. That must mean they are inferior, and can't possibly have to do with the game being designed around reliance on dedicated healers that relatively few people want to play.

The fact that you say it ten times over doesn't make it right. I've answered it in the other thread at least half a dozen times, and neither you nor anyone else there has come up with a reasonable point against the answer other than to point to your original statement again. I'm sorry, but that's neither debating nor particularly analytical. Try answering the point instead of remaking the one it answered already if you want to move on instead of repeating yourself.

Yes, you've made silly arguements before. And I've answered them before. Making them against doesn't change that they were answered. There's nothing armchair about it. I've DONE it. The math is just there to prove that it was possible for the sake of anyone who wants to say I didn't. Whether you choose to use the word "crazy" or not doesn't change that it was exponentially greater than any other option available. No hyperbole involved, except when someone uses a term like "infinite energy", which is fairly slight hyperbole in a situation where there really are plenty of cases where it's honestly difficult to spend the energy fast enough to keep up with the supply.

SR is no longer an issue in PvP now that it can't be controled. The passive energy gains will be fairly mediocre at best in nearly every kind of PvP once the update goes live. Thus, the cap could only possibly be in place specifically to address the issue in PvE. Get over PvP. SR is entirely a PvE issue.

And I see N asked for more often than anything but Mo in 95%+ of PvE. That has nothing to do with a calculator, though simple math gives me a good understanding of why it could be. My crucible gives different results than your crucible. So lets ask someone who can watch the entire game which is more accurate. Oh wait, they've already rendered their verdict and you don't like it, so I guess what you've seen in game must be more accurate than theirs?

I've never dodged it. I've called it a fallacy, because pointing to a made up bandwagon is on a logic 101 list of standard logical fallacies. If you had real evidence I might be tempted to call it a point. You think the entire game supports your viewpoint. What I see in game calls you wrong. What the devs say about what's happening in the game calls you wrong. I see Necros steamrolling the PvE game. Quite simply, my experience and the observations of the people running the servers disgree with your assessment of what's going on out in a big world you can't possibly have seen all of. Therefore you need more than vague assertions about wikis (Notoriously filled with random crap only occationally matching what is actually effective) and vague assertions that the entire forum is against me despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.

You can't use generalizations about what everyone else is doing as evidence unless you can actually demonstrate that your generalizations represent some kind of statistical reality. Until then, it's a standard issue bandwagon fallacy, and completely irrelevent. How is that a dodge?

The other way to deal with scaling effectiveness is to cap the maximum without touching the low to middle area. Oh wait, that's what they did.

Lowering the benifit would hit the low end as well as the high end. I thought you didn't want to punish the poor struggling Necros. What did they do to deserve less energy from that one kill they fought so hard for?

I have made painfully detailed analyses many times. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away. And I don't really need to do so *again* since it's been done for me. Izzy, paraphrased: "SR was giving too much energy, so we capped the maximum. Necros are still steamrollers." Until someone comes up with a decent reason behind calling this very basic point wrong, I see no reason to doubt it. It matches my personal experience playing Necro and having Necros on my team. How is "I see it every time I play, and here's the mechanics and mathematics behind why it works" not a reasonable analysis? Are bandwagon fallacies the only things that count as reasonable?

I don't recall defending the 5 second cap in particular. I wasn't particularly unhappy with it (and said so), but I acknowledged plenty of times that there were aspects of it that were commonly found annoying. I'm perfectly happy with the new cap. I think it's an improvement. I defended the idea that capping SR improves PvE balance. And until Necros stop steamrolling PvE, I'm not likely to be convinced otherwise. The result is very close to exactly what I hoped for, though one of the pip solutions would have been a bit better in my opinion.

Oh, and since we're giving snarky backwards congratulations, GJ defending the idea that no cap is needed.

I'm already quite certain that 3/15 works fine for me. I'm alright with the current one, and 3/15 is a smoother curve that will let bursts work. I'm not sure what you expect from a debate when you use a term like "quotewars". What does that even mean? How do you want to discuss an issue other than to quote what people have said about it and responding to the exact points they made? I suppose making up arguements and attributing them to the other person instead of quoting them is better form?

Yes, and Hexes are harder to run at the highest levels because good players do run piles of counters. That doesn't change the fact that they are imbalanced, and that balance should be improved. There is a difference between "somewhat counterable by a build fully devoted to countering that one thing and worthless against everything else" and "balanced". I'm all for asking people to give it a shot before complaining. I'm all for waiting a bit to see if adaptation cleans up the problem. All non-scrub PvPers are more than happy to spend some time and effort adapting. But sometimes after all that, there's just no avoiding the fact that something is clearly too good and is hurting the game. It sure sounds to me like hex stacking builds are in that catagory, though I haven't PvPed enough in a while to say with certainty.

I don't particularly want them to destroy any particular hexes either, but a few of them have almost certainly been overly buffed.

Choices. You can use any one of them, as fitting the group composition and play style. You can also use more than one and alternate them. They just won't stack all at once any more. We will still have lots of choices of how and when to boost armor using a veriety of different skills.

Why do we have so many forms of degen if it stops stacking at 10? Same reason, and the same goes for pretty much all of the stacking caps. They are all intended to be individually useful, but it's nearly impossible to balance around unlimited stacking effects. Every online RPG I've played much of has stacking limitations on many or most kinds of buffs. In a huge number of cases, only the biggest one applies, or buffs in the same catagory all overwrite each other when applied.

Seems pointless at this point to reply but what the hey, right?

Necro
ONLY change SR needs is one dealing with spirits. Leave the rest as it once was, pls.
"You now gain full Energy when a Spirit you control dies; you gain no Energy when other Spirits die."

Ritualist
I'm very happy with the update to spawning.

Paragon
Pls buff their Elites. The class might be a pain in PvP but in PvE they need some help.

All chat/Trade channel
Tighter enforcement seems likely a ineffective measure in the long haul.
I would suggest focussing more on making the Search feature more effective for Traders and LFG alike. Many have expressed the limitation with Search when trying to trade but I still think this tool has alot of potential if expanded with better usability.


Just my 2cents

They don't though. Paragons are extremely solid PVE class, the community just doesn't realise this because they are bad.

Skill like Defensive Anthem and They're On Fire are amazing in PVE. Paragons can currently make a teams defense retardedly good in PVP, and they can do exactly the same thing in PVP, while at the same time putting out decent damage.

When people bitch about mesmers being bad in PVE, it's acceptable, because they actually are trash in PVE, paragon's aren't, it's just too bad 96% of the people that play this game still fail after it's been out for 2 years.

Mesmers are fine. It's the way PvE is set up that's trash.

And yes, Paragons are fine. I just can't play one without a sword (Spears are for cowards).

I am aware of that.

: (

*Sigh* Oh wells...Maybe they'll be wicked awesome in the sequel. I think they'd be the most fun class to solo with.

skill inertupts - we can't hex you if you interupt our skills

Power Spike: Signet of Disruption: Leech Signet: Power Drain: Web of Disruption


skill interupts / skill denial - we can't hex you if you stop all of our skills and make them take forever to recharge

Arcane Larceny: Arcane Thievery: Blackout: Cry of Frustration: Diversion: Mistrust: Power Block (<- as a necro hexer, this one is super nasty): Psychic Distraction:


skill interupts/ energy drain's - we can't hex you if you stop all of our skills and drain all of our energy.
Power Flux: Power Leak: Price of Pride: Arcane Languor (<- another nasty one): Power Leech:

Hex removal - you want to remove hex's you say???
Shatter Hex: Hex Eater Signet (<- group removal): Inspired Hex: Revealed Hex: Expel Hexes (<-removes up to 2 hex's off 1 ally)

Hex Denial - anyone can be imune to hex's, make mes your secondary and carry this-
Hex Breaker

other stuff - stuff that doesn't fall into above catigories, but are still usefull
Arcane Conundrum - all spells take twice as long to cast. reduces how many hex's we can throw.
Frustration - same as above, + damage everytime you interupt him
Migraine - 1-3 health degeneration + 100% longer spell casting
Signet of Humility - disable targets elite skill for 1-16 seconds.





Holy cow, would you look at that - an entire class that is usually passed up in PvP, dedicated to doing exactly what you are whineing and crying about. and if you still can't bring yourself to bring along a core class character in your team, rangers are chaulk full of inerupts, and monks have quite a few hex removal skills to boot - allbeit netiher are as good as shutting down a hex necro as the mes is.


__________________________________________________
(check out mouse's zodiac clearence sale http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...03#post2893103)

Hehe I think you are misnamed - you should be "Quote'em Duck"

All you can do is respond to my talking points, and you claim that this is a debate. Now, that is comedy. Like icymanipulator has demonstrated, you like to refer to ANet as being the ultimate authority. Unfortunately for you, they have a spotty track record at being omniscient - check the 5 second timer, or every single FotM that they did not see coming?

See, per your history you then try and paint any detractor as a slavering communist traitor, as opposed to speaking the truth - perfection is an impossibility. Get over it, they made a good game but its not anywhere near perfect, and it never will be. Things that they do are not always right - in fact mitigation of the overdone consequences of nerfs or buffs happens just about every time they nerf or buff. See the Ele Conjure line - that has gone up and down more than a yoyo.

Once I subtract the ANet quotes from the war and peace novel you wrote, well, there isn't really anything left.

Just because ANet says something does not make it true. I have a different opinion, and I'll be darned if I am going to let you quote me to death to shut me up that this is a big mistake.

So lets try this again - Monks are the one required class for PvE. Generally, parties I see go out want a minimum of 2. That's pretty serious dependency there.

If you were right, and Necros were imba with superior energy, then why weren't they displacing Monks in the gamespace? I would think that no need for energy management at all would be a pretty compelling reason, if it was as powerful and imba as you say.

Oh, your objection that the community is not very smart? Try every FotM that ANet did not see coming and has to nerf.

So quote away there, Quote'em.
TabascoSauce