Guild Wars - Terrible Customer Relations?

This thread is posted in response to recent Dev updates. In which long standing concerns seem to have been completely ignored, despite being discussed at great length by the community.

Recently in relation to Guild Wars Jeff Strain described the MMORPG industry as a "Service Industry". I find it completely baffling then that the level of customer service has been - in my view - declining in quality so dramatically.

Now I'm going to keep this thread as far from personal as possible, but when one person is pretty much responsible for an entire companies customer relations, and this thread concerns the subject of how those customer relations are carried out, it's going to be very easy for anyone to suggest I'm being "insulting" rather than criticising. If Guild Wars is indeed part of a service industry, surely it's logical that customers will criticise the service, specifically - the flow of information between the customer base and the dev team.


“But successful MMOs, or successful online games in general, are successful because the development team comprehends and understands that ultimately what they’re making is a service.” - Jeff Strain.


Jeff Strain apparently agrees that that flow of information is key to the success of the game, and thus it should be placed under the same scrutiny as the design team, the art team, or any other part of what makes up Anet's service.

The fact that customer relations are handled by one person should not stop us or make us feel guilty for criticising it's quality.



So what is wrong with the Customer Relations at Anet?


Does Gaile Grey understand the entire community?

First and foremost the Guild Wars community has been very clearly split in two halves, namely the PVE (player versus enemy) and PVP (player versus player) communities. Each seems to have different concerns, desires and needs.

Why then do we have a Community Relations person that clearly is only involved in one half of the game? Gaile Grey clearly has no PVP knowledge, which is fine in itself, I don't think any one person can be expected to understand the entirety of such a large game, surely it'd make sense to employ someone specifically for communicating the concerns of PVP players to the dev team?

There are a great many number of players in this community who go out of their way to provide Anet with information regarding balance issues, many of which are so obviously apparent that there is a general consensus amongst the entire PVP community.

It's almost shocking then that after the large quantity of information put out by the community, and the large amount of effort that goes into putting that information out. The information itself is ignored.

Now it's very easy to suggest Gaile IS passing on this information, but it's being ignored internally.

"You've not been ignored.
I'm not saying you will be ignored in the future.
We can read without posting a word.
" - Gaile Grey

However,

"Gaile, you have to remember that I've got Izzy's personal contact info. I check up on things that are talked about in the forums with him.*snip* So, you say that proposals such as mine are "seen, understood, and discussed internally?" Then Izzy must be one hell of an actor, because it's almost always the case that he asks me to explain what I mean. If he really were getting that sort of info, why wouldn't he know to what I refer? We had a colossal hex thread, and when I brought some conclusions to him it was the first he'd heard of it." - David Holtzman

David has been involved in the Alpha community and discussions with the dev team for a long time, this is hardly encouraging is it.

Now we have prominent PVP players apparently talking to devs on issues that have been very clearly discussed and concluded on the forums, and apparently - weeks after those threads are posted, the dev team responsible for skill balance knows absolutely nothing about them?

Whether you believe David or not, I think right now it's pretty obvious to pretty much anyone who plays Guild Wars which skills and builds are broken and imbalanced, and the recent Dev update in which coming skill balances are listed addresses absolutely NONE of them.

So what's going on here? Poor balance or poor communication?


"Criticizing the community team because you disagree with skill balances is like criticizing your plumber because you don't like the chicken fricassee or blaming your mechanic for a poor internet connection." -Gaile Grey

Is it? When the entire PVP community has pretty much the same consensus on a subject, and the devs are telling community members that they've not heard anything on those subjects. Is there really no fault here of your own?

Now I'd like to believe that - rather than Gaile simply "not bothering" to pass on our concerns, she doesn't have the PVP knowledge to decide which is good information and which is bad. Can you imagine coming to this forum, from World of Warcraft, having never played Guild Wars before. And being told to pass on useful information to the dev team?

You'd have a pretty hard time wouldn't you?

So why do I think Gaile has no PVP knowledge? Well for starters reading over her diary of the Guild Wars faction championships she mentions being asked to play in some GVG.

During this paragraph she mentions how she usually runs a R/Mo healer, she has trouble differentiating between her own team and the opposing team, specifically making the mistake that she'd poisoned her own team mates with poison arrow.

This is pretty substantial evidence towards the claim that Gaile doesn't have the knowledge to differentiate good suggestions from bad in terms of PVP play. Surely someone with a high level of PVP knowledge should be hired to take care of the PVP community? Someone who actively competes at a high level and will understand the changing metagame?



Now moving away from the issue of PVP, why is it we're apparently not supposed to be angry with a community relations, surely clearing up a community that is angry and lacking faith is part of the job? Who are we supposed to be angry with when we're not liking the way this "service" is going?

In a recent thread on gwonline Gaile responded to angry posters with this:

"
There is no license to abuse, here.
There is no permission to insult, here.
No one has an all-clear to libel, here, nor to state as fact your fantastical and ridiculous untruths.
You may think so -- but you are wrong. Don't believe for a minute that any member of the dev team, or the dev team as a whole, needs to take what's being dished out here.

We don't.

We won't.

The shame is, you've killed it for the rest. And keep in mind, those of you--so many of you--who want to have a decent discussion may well have contributed by your very passivity. For your failure to alert the mods to what was going on, to add your voice to the "We just want to talk about the game" list allowed this to get to its current unacceptable state. Don't for a minute blame us -- the excesses of this community are the responsibility of this community.
"


Apparently, because the community is unhappy at being ignored, at huge balance issues going untreated - and indeed - apparently uncommunicated! It's the communities fault "The shame is, you've killed it for the rest."

Blaming the community because they're unhappy with you? Ignoring the community then they're upset with being ignored, you tell them you're going to ignore them further?

Frankly a lot of this could have been resolved with an apology, or perhaps a polite explanation.

I recall the threads in the HA section of Guild Wars Guru the day the HA updates were released (updates I might add that did not come from the community, and the community is still paying for them.) The forums exploded with Gaile hate, moderators decided to keep the threads open, "your customers are unhappy, they have a right to voice that unhappiness."

Gaile responded by making certain demands of the fan site, and once again blaming the community, mothering it, suggesting we shouldn't act this way and that way.

News flash, this is a community of adults, not children. You don't go around telling your adult customers how they should act, how to be good human beings, you listen to their concerns and try to resolve them, isn't that what CR is about? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again it apparently didn't cross her mind that the community has a right to be angry and she is the only avenue of information


So are we expecting too much of Gaile? From some of the things she says it seems that way.

"Let me explain: Most online games do not have people who talk daily to and actively interact with their players. ArenaNet is the exception, not the rule. "

- First of all, this isn't true. As most people who've been part of a MMORPG community can contest, second, is this trying to justify poor community relations? Other games don't have it, so it's OK if ours is poor? You should be happy with what you have?

An odd stance to take when your company admits that they are involved in a service industry.


This thread doesn't even go into all the rude insulting thing's she's posted in her time, the one about eating pizza with one hand and playing with the other is particularly memorable.

HA, is in a lot of people's opinion, completely ruined, thanks to a very clear community voice not being heard.

GVG is going through a particularly dirty, passive, meta.

Hero battles are getting more and more support although the general consensus is they suck.


"Enjoy talking amongst yourselves." - Gaile Grey



Do we? Are you happy with CR at Anet?

Let me know what you think, I'm sure there are some carebears who don't care how the game turns out as long as they get to conga and talk about brownies, but I'm sure some of you are also concerned. What do you think?

Anet is fine enough. It's the overly demanding customers that bother me.

I just can't believe you actually wrote all that down.

A very well thought out post. I find myself agreeing with all of it. I was particularly alarmed by David Holtzman's commment when I first read it. Whether it's true or not is beyond me, but it's rather unsettling that something so obvious to a PvP Neophyte like myself can go seemingly unnoticed and ignored.


Edit: Overly demanding? The things that are most asked for are things that have been asked for since Guild Was was released. How is that overly demanding?

I always though customer relations was in fact when a person deals with a customer's problem on a case by case, 1 on 1 basis.

Hence why Gaile tries to specify that she is Community relations.

But im confused is this a "Gaile sucks thread" or a "Anet's got bad internal communication thread" or what?

Could you cite your quote sources please?

Lets not get caught up in the semantics of customer/community relations, we all know what she does, is she doing it well.

All quotes are from gwonline, various threads, I'm banned right now so I can't link you to individual posts.

Gaile's response in that thread on GWO was a masterful screw up.

Disillusioned fan base?

How can we sort this out?

Listen? Offer reassurance? Actually try and resuscitate the game?

Let's plan to role out an update the annoys not only the entire pvp community (what's new?) but high end pvers (apparently this armor nerf matters) and then flame the community for offering advice on how to suck less and get the game sorted out...

GG

damn man....awesome post. I am sure that the developers are busying making GWEN and GW2, but when they get time in 4-5 years, I am sure they will read and understand this

I basically agree with you Tiyuri - Gaile can be pretty clueless at times. Still, she serves a bulk of the community that may not require the kind of specialized knowledge that a real PvP rep would need but are still in the majority. Of course, that's just in defense of Gaile, but there's no reason not to have a Gaile-equivalent for high-end PvPers. I read somewhere (probably sirlin) that a good game is designed to be playable by everyone, but holds firmly at a very highly competitive level for very dedicated players. Those players may be a small minority compared to the size of the player base overall, but without the support of those players the game will certainly die (or at best, be merely mediocre).

Perhaps it can be fairly said that while dedicated PvPers might be a minority, that the value of thier input is about equal to that of the rest of the community and ought to have the same representation from someone qualified to give it.

It is however also a fairly moot point. GW is in it's golden years now, and we're not going to see a PvP rep at any point in the future (prove me wrong ANet, prove me wrong).

-Jessyi

Gaile is Community Relations although its always seemed like an ambiguous title. I've never entirely understood what her job entails, so I guessed it was a sort of liaison between the developers and the community. A Dev hotline of sorts.

According to people mentioned in the OP, the people responsible for skill balancing etc. don't actually receive any information they are supposed to so I'm obviously wrong. So what is it that is actually done ? Posting skill changes on forums that are available on the main site ? Congas ? I don't know anymore, and don't care.

*frown* Not only is your thread bordering on one large personal attack, it is arrogant to think that you have a right to publically question and effectively incite on a large scale, an investigation into if someone is doing their job as how you would like it done.
Your thread is flamebait and serves no useful discussion purpose.

It is ANet's CEO's or upper management that would determine that, not you, not anyone from this forum. How rude.

Plenty of us are very glad and appreciative of the open and frequent communication between Gail and us. I am still surprised by the fact that i can write to her and be listened to and have ideas acted upon..when there are 3 million other players.... that is amazing. Yet what you and other people who post agressively here seem to not realise how much you are potentially alienating yourselves. There are right ways to go about things, this thread isnt one of them impo.

Why, I pay them money for a service, surely that gives me the right to question the effectiveness of certain key aspects of that service.

I always find it baffling that players feel it's fine to question the art team, the design team, the sound team and so on, but when it comes to customer relations, no matter how dissatisfied we are with the way it's being carried out, we're being "insulting and personal" if we criticise it at all.

I think the OP don't get what gailes job actually is, as it was mentioned in one of the posts she's just the person that activly handles communication with the community.

It's like a PR rep. or something, a PR rep. doesn't know every little thing about how their company operates.

Well, first off your post is highly slanted at PvP GW not GW in general. PvP takes up about 25% of my GW time at most, so some of your views and frustrations are not really a priority of mine. Secondly, I dont really see the level of anger vented at Gaile. She puts up with alot, humans have a natural tendency to snap at people who endlessly ***** at them all day. Dont shoot the messenger, she seems pretty nice...but still human.

That all said, I can say I agree that as of late ANet is getting on my nerves with the updates and direction they are going. Some of the features they have spent excessive time on, while nice, were not really what was clearly on the table of top priority. Hard mode was implemented and forced an entire change to the PvE side of playing, farming and trading, yet they still have the same non-functional trade system that was around when I played the betas? They have spent a long time working on PvP skill updates, but 99% of them seem of little consiquence.

Im not quite sure what the point of this thread is, whether it be an "I dis/agree" or an attempt to address problems in the game. If it is the first, I will say I agree that ANet seems to be working off their own list, not a list that the community has, in some cases bluntly, brought up and want addressed.

If its the second, here would be a short list of what is most pressing in the game and I hope they address before they do other irrellevant updates, but sadly feel they will ignore.

PvE
1) It would be nice to have SOME improvement to trade. I am not asking for an auction house, but even an extra 12-20 characters in the party panel or a means to show in a list/panel of items you have for sale would be nice. I would put this above any update to the entire game IMO....its to the point I simply wont go into LA or Kamadan now. Trade CHAT is not functional...
2) Hard Mode monsters are little more than normal mode on steriods with tons of HP and buffs. Why not just give them good builds and make their levels higher? HM seems like a grind that promotes only the use of W/*, E/*, M/*, and N/* characters. Just giving them decent builds would increase the difficulty and not require absurd AoE damage to survive.
3) PLEASE put SOME thought into what PvP changes do to PvE gameplay. Your +25 AL cap from skills for example....ouch to any HM group now.

PvP
1) Paragons. No idea what to do. But they are too weak alone but overpowered in groups. They are also being nerfed in a way that is killing them in PvE. Tough spot on these guys.
2) Please make a healing monk playable w/o being called a n00b by a Wammo.
3) D/E. Nuff said.
4) I can say that I have seen alot of talk about kill count in HA....and I have never played HA....yet I know its a problem...thats gotta say something.

Completely agree with OP.

Gaile acts like she's doing us a big favor by reading and responding to threads. Frankly the players that bother to discuss things and come up with good solutions are the ones doing Anet a big favor by helping to improve the game.

The quote from David makes one wonder what is really going on. Why bother discussing and coming up with solutions if these aren't going to make it to Izzy and co.

Here's the rather long thread that got closed from which most of this is taken:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=454486

I agree with Series - epic post.

Thank you for taking on such a difficult topic with delicacy and maturity.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Thats because maybe, just maybe, if you kiss enough ass they will give you a miniature or a cape trim or something. Surely you knew posting something like this, extremely well done and in earnest, was going to draw the ire of the die hard Anet can do no wrong crowd.

BTW, I agree with your points...its perfectly reasonable to question a service. You would do the same thing for any other service you are dissatisfied with or they would lose a customer.

Assigning a person to the CR on behalf of the PvP side who actually KNOWS stuff about PvP (I'm sure there's enough top GvG players who would love to volunteer ) would fix almost all problems.

I do agree we should be thankful being able at all to lay contact with the devs, but the contact could so easily be improved, making the atmosphere on both the players- and the devside a lot more pleasant.

PS. You can easily spot the PvP'ers and PvE'ers in this thread. Lol.

Epic post count +1.

Actually, it's not so much Gaile I have a problem with (although she is, well, 'uninformed' about the part of the playerbase which differentiates GW from your generic MMORPG) but her rabid fanclub who think that she is always right.

Did you play other games?

Because even having an active Community Relations person is pretty rare, most game-makers have no interaction with their customers at all.

I see this basically is a "let's see if we can get Gaile fired or make her quit" thread.

I completely agree with the OP.
And how are they meant to know that people aren't satisfied if no-one says about it?

I see the GW community as getting more and more aggressive and jaded and angry.

And it looks like Gaile's just losing her coolheadedness since shes usually the brunt target of all our bullshit.

Her reactions, while totally unprofessional, are completely understandable as a human reaction, considering how much shit she puts up with.

Ive done customer relations, i look to my left and i hear our customer relations department less than 50 feet from me.

Im sure Gaile wants to wring everyone's neck.

Our customer reps over here, they hang up the phone and sigh. Its ridiculous what customers demand. The customer rep cant do anything but funnel information back and forth. I call that job Bullshit translator.

Its an uneviable position, and with this kind of ferocious and passionate community, its hard to stay professional when the customers get personal all the time.

--------

So what now? Someone got any actual tangible reform ideas or are we just bitching here?

An actual PvP rep maybe?

Well, WoW has CR's but they don't actually interact with people - same can be said for other MMO's.

Frankly I think someone from the PVP community should be hired as a rep, heck a lot of people would probably do it for free.

Nah.. More like a what the hell is going on?

You don't see anything wrong here?

Or here? You must be either blind or one of Gaile Grey's fan club members.

It's just too bad that you don't understand them well before you question them.

How long is their development cycle? Do you have any idea?

Do you know how they prioritize their enhancements and break-fixes?

Your OP on the possible need for a PvP representative is perhaps on target, but the rest of the post is merely an ad-hominem attack.

Please tell me how quickly they prioritize and implement an enhancement, explain their development cycle, and then I'll possibly give your post some credence. Otherwise it's just /yawn.

That is because you have an all-or-nothing attitude. Try and see shades of gray - since the world is nothing but. I've been constructively criticized before, and this is his attempt at such for the community relations system that ANet has - it has problems.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Do you not wonder where that anger is coming from? And why it is directed at her?

Then theyd realize how hard a job it is and quit?

Where does their development cycle come into this, I didn't even mention the (appallingly long) time it takes to get relatively obvious fixes out whilst they completely damage the game...


I don't believe that at all, the amount of crap I get from PVE players at gwonline is huge, I probably get more hate than Gaile, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Great thread and it has been coming for a long time now. How it's managed to get to this stage is beyond me but there has been a clear failure from Gaile to fulfill her role.

No, you paid them for a game. As is.
Not to have a particular style of Customer Relations Manager who is as you said, "someone with a high level of PVP knowledge should be hired to take care of the PVP community? Someone who actively competes at a high level and will understand the changing metagame?"

That would be icing on the cake, in your case Which dont get me wrong, if i was as into PvP as you obviously are, then i would love it if there was staff who felt that way about PvP. However, i believe that more than only Gail reads these and other fan forums, so no doubt there are other opinions going to the Devs.

Im not sure if you are referring to me here or not. However, i have not and will not critisise any of the staff, regardless of dept. We all do have a right to critisise...but not to insult.
There is a world apart from a healthy and constructive critque and a veiled insult.

If you don't know how the development cycle is involved with community relations, and how Gaile responds to comments and criticisms, then you certainly have no credibility.

Although what you say sounds a bit harsh, I agree with your statements Tiyuri.

I absolutely see no purpose in this thread. nor any of the ones in GWO.

to be frank, if i have a problem with a service, i go to the source.

why don't you contact Anet directly, go over Gaile's head with this. This would be the business way of doing things.

posting a thread like this is just getting a mob ready with pitchforks and torches....

I agree that there should be a voice for PVP. Gaile seems more PVE.

Why isn't IZZY speaking to the public... maybe because he can't. maybe because he has a boss. maybe because he doesn't know anything is because he makes suggestions, draws data together, and submits this to a boss?

I'm sure Izzy isn't the one approving of these changes. I'm sure he is probably required to say something about it if it is changed, he is the one hired to do so.

I think Gaile's job is to collect the thoughts and ideas of the community. not to address us like PR stating everything Anet does.

that's PR.

CR to me is taking our ideas and thoughts and making a voice for the community to Anet. The OTHER way around...... than what Tiyuri is thinking i beleive.

Seriously, just close this thread and find the number Anet and call her boss. That would be the most constructive of your time and benefit more to Anet than this stupid thread.

I know why there is anger. I know why there is anger towards her.

But i also know a lot it is unfounded and by people who dont sit down to rationally think out what they are angry about.

Anet decided to nerf the armor buff stacking. Is that Gaile's fault? No. But im sure someone will find a way to blame her.

If not, then they will blame her for not communicating to the devs that we dont like it.

Doesnt matter what she does, shes screwed regardless of the reason for why people are mad, simply because she is the messenger.

The harshness is justified, things have been said about this over and over yet constantly fall on deaf ears.

Then you will just take anything that's giving to you, regardless of whether or not you agree with it? That's essentially what you are saying.

You'd go to the source, and would be told to post a thread on a fan forum.

Please do not respond to people presenting opposing views by trying to call them "Fan club members" "fanboys" "mindless zombie drones" or whatever the phrase of the month is. It would be nice to have a nice calm discussion about the actual opening post.
I was going to post in the other thread, but it's apparently a double so I didn't get a chance, and bits of what I was going to say have been covered here. So I'll only address this one thing.
I want a pony in the game. A pink pony with a red polka dot bow and vibrant yellow feathers growing from its nose. They're giving me a service, that service being a digital world, and so I should get my beautiful pony because I gave them money.
But what about the other 3 million players that have to look at my pony? While I agree that the higher end pvp players have a vast store of knowledge that should be drawn upon, I think you fail to realize that though they are the minority, not even the majority can simply demand something and expect Anet to deliver. Anet promised a fantasy world, and they deigned to listen and let us help shape it. This can be seen in the official suggestions thread where (if I recall correctly) they have a list of every suggestion that has been utilized in the game. It's quite a lot.

You're looking at one aspect of a game, these people have to deal with every niggling detail of the world of Tyria and make sure it balances out properly,and that customer demands don't produce a clone of another game on the market. You have your best interests at heart when you think of what you want for your playing experience, Anet has to make sure to have GW's best interest's at heart: to ensure that they satisfy as many people as possible without ruining the game in the long term.

And I don't really want a pony like that. I just enjoy being flippant.

But that's just my two cents

I think gaile is doing an OK job, but not great.

The pve community likes her and she is generally polite (her recent foux pax notwithstanding). And let's face it -- her job is to be a barrier. To stop us from bothering the dev team and spoon feed us marketing propaganda from time to time. Given that role, she is decent.

But as people caught on that community relations is the same old barrier system and not a genuine attempt at building community and accepting feedback, people wore thin on gaile. She doesn't play the game, doesn't understand the community, and doesn't seem to realize people are frustrated because they are ignored and the game is getting worse and worse. And let's be real here -- her job has to be more than pacification. She needs to be accurately giving good feedback to the devs so the game can be fixed, and for whatever reason that isn't happening.

It isn't her fault that the game isn't balanced and has been horribly mismanaged in other areas. It isn't her fault that real technical constraints exist. But it is her fault that the community feels ignored and frustrated. It is her fault for failing to provide information about real problems. It is her fault for failing to explain why things happen as they do.

You ignore your customers, they go elsewhere. The exodus is in plain view, both in the US and in Korea. The few who complain are anet's best chance to understand why, but gaile can't see them as anything other than whiners. And that's why she needs to be "promoted" to director of community relations or w/e and have someone else handle the actual community relations.

Taking this to the extreme suggesting we're claiming she should listen to the demands of the individual is not really constructive.

This is not one person wanting a pony, this is the general consensus of the PVP community, these are things countless people want to see implemented, things completely breaking the game right now.