Some Info about Community Relations

This is a prime example of how the division of PvE and PvP stands.

PvE'rs are praising and thanking Gaile and Andrew, yet the PvP'rs are denouncing every word said.

PvP'r: Angry, frustrated, etc. at the lack of what new updates are coming, how they are going to fix HA/ATs, and where the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are these skill balances.

PvE'r: Content, because they are receiving their PvE skills that can allow them to beat hard mode without +armor skills (well, now considering they have a +100 armor shout...), and how every update coming seems to extend the longevity of the PvE game.

Seriously though people stop with the insults. Even though I am guilty of it too, this thread needs to have the right people read the right posts, not have to filter through pages of crap.


My question to you Gaile/Andrew is:

Okay, the Devs and other employees responsible for making changes read some threads, and more specifically read threads you direct them to often....
So when there is a glaring problem/glitch/bug/need of an update....why, more often than not, is there simply no change, no response or no fix to them? Only at the point of absolute pandemonium and public upheval is there even a hint at Anet addressing the problem.

Especially taking 'timley fashion' into account, what avenues must players use to alert the designers and developers of the game about vailid suggestions or bug findings that seem to go unnoticed/addressed??? It seems the current methods are poor or ineffective.
Even if the vocal minority actually take time to post(10% of all players lets say), you can not with any kind of accuracy say that the player non-forum using populus is happy with changes or sad with them. Most will lament/praise within their guild or private chats, but you can say for certain that they will continue to play or buy your products? Can you say for certain that the changes made, were good for more than it was bad for?
So its up to the posters here to try and address the issues that many players know about, but few discuss, for whatever their reaasons are. So these forums can generally be pretty accurate depictions of the minds of most of the general populus, I think the Anet employees are smart enough to see who is a valid poster and who is a flaming troll/spammer/sheep.

You have stated previously that "alot more than we know" goes on, is noted and worked on. But why do so many problems persist for what seems to be absurd amounts of time? What area can a player base go to know that their abundant and very evident community affecting plight is being addressed or looked at?
I'm sure there are good reasons for the time taken to fix certain things, all proper testing takes time, it'd be silly of me to expect instant gratification to complex problems. But when treated with silence, a populus will be forced into assumptions, which are often negative(its the world we live in). These types of things can be avoided if you had a public forum or blog where the devs can say whats being worked on, or at least have valid bug/broken mechanic listings. Much like a few have posted before.

I don't think many doubt you relay as much as you can, but we don't hear about it, we don't know about it, so this forces people to think they are being ignored, and no blanket statements will fix that.

Point being, I agree with Anet needing a public forum supported by their employees listing current projects, bug and designs that are being fixed or worked on. If thats not possible, can you explain to me why that wouldn't work?

Also the other posters are spot on, Anet has done well, heck better than any other company in regards to addressing the community and patching things. But it could have been better. I won't cling to hindsight, but alot of players have left- 100s of which I originally played this game with, they could have been saved, had they found hope that things would be fixed or even were being worked on and top players who knew what they were talking about, would be held in higher esteem when trying to help anet fix gameplay problems. Not being told "We are the proffesionals...we know what we are doing, leave it to us".

thanks

cha cha

PvErs are easy to please, because the concept of 'game balance' does not really apply to it (PvE is easy, even hardmode is barely challenging with a competent group), Game Balance in PvP is tedious, As Black stated before in this thread, skill balance is generally ok, albeit a bit infrequent.

From what I'm hearing Izzy is literally swamped in work, I'm simply wondering what Gaile Gray and Andrew Patrick do when they're not running around followed by PvErs and/or pretending to be frogs..

I'd never say the messengers failed at their duties. It is the skill balance department that fail but the messengers sugar-coat their incompetence and demean the playing population with statistics and symbolism. This is why the the HA community are still enraged with imbalance (see ritualist spike) and Kill Count. The exact nature of the CRT's jobs is unclear to me.

I get the impression that because other games don't have such a communicative community relations department we are supposed to be overly grateful for this service but it seems to be a nuisance instead. People have complained about Kill Count for months now in the Heroes' Ascent sub-forum and it still exists. There are multi-page stickies and polls about it and people bring it up during in-game Dev chats although the only answer seems to be "They're looking at it". It's obviously a massive area of concern for a hefty chunk of the player base yet no information seems to be passing through. The only way people will get that information is by nagging (for want of a better word) the CR team for more information. The end result is that people get frustrated and leave the game altogether (see Heroes' Ascent districts - or lack of). People have nagged and are nagging but all they're squeezing out of the CR team is "They're looking at it".

There's clear skill balance problems right now which I was hoping the mid-june update would address but I, and evidently many others, are disappointed because it'll be the same stale, overpowered builds in every PvP area for a long while.

Its so ironic in that sense gasmaskman, because you'd think making a bunch of new pve content from scratch would be much harder then just changing around the numbers in a skill description.

This is the only logical explanation I have come to understand for the lack of skill updates, after a while of it being on my mind. Simply put, some skills when they were introduced were not thought out fully. Anet or etc. did not spend the very careful calculations to make them playable, and i am not trying to flame or insult anyone, but come on everyone knows that a big percentage of gw skills rarely or never see play.

People have to realize this is not by coincidence, but probably unless their whole skill description is changed they will never see play. And this is sad too, because i know many people, even on this forum, who would gladly for free offer their expertise after many many hours of playing GW PvP.

-Lac

Did you even read her post? She said she passes on pieces she thinks are important or things the Devs 'might' have missed. However the Devs 'themselves' also read all this crap we write. That is their primary source of data gathering.
Perhaps you could conjure up another conspiracy theory around what she and the rest of the CR guys actually 'send' to the dev's (just in case they missed it the first time they read/skimmed/ignored it) but you'd be dealing with conjecture as if it were fact. Bad place to be.

Still being in dev I do know what it's like. When you have a deadline you really don't give a shit about what the hell people are barking a you. Be they testers, PR people, external 'quality officers' (yeah, such shit exists. Publishers can be full of it 'make those colours redder pls') if they don't factor into the schedule, they don't mean a damn thing, simple as that. Not until it's done anyways. Anet currently have Gwen to finish. Yeah, huge dead-line...

Since your priority as a dev is meeting the targets you are paid for, they probably don't read as much as the CR team. So I guess Andrew/Gaile's/the Rest's forwarded mails are pretty damn important.
Still I know better than to forward my lead everything under the sun and I bet that goes for them also. Especially during mass crunch periods. It's the fastest way to screw everything up and get yourself into a whole lot of trouble ^_^.

Sure the dev response could be a damn sight better (can't you people friggin' see how much a vile scourge most of the naruto populace is!? Play the damn game!! etc...), but it's gotten far better than it used to be. They even give excuses for why things are adjusted. Doesn't change what your dealt (and if it's shit, it sucks all the same), but people are all too quick to forget how updates used to be...


Ether Prodigy now does 3 damage for each point of energy you have left when it ends. (in secret: Ha ha you losers we felt like screwing with your builds. Come again? Go do something important with your lives, or even slit your wrists if you really want. We'll name a ritualist ash pot after you! ^_^)

Ok it's probably a little different but you get my drift...

I don't think this is a bad thing, with too many skills and classes the game becomes more complex and it becomes harder and harder to fit everything you need into a build of just 8 players and 64 skills.

Part of the reason why gimmick builds see so much play right now is because there's so many classes and skills that you cant bring enough skills in a 'balanced build' to counter a certain build that just focuses on one aspect anymore.
E.g. if you bring a lot of hex removal you'll have a disadvantage vs teams that do not run (m)any hexes and if you don't then you won't have enough to deal with an all out hex build.

I think they should focus on making 2-3 Elites and 6-8 Skills per attribute playable (in PvP) this way there will be plenty of skills to choose from still but not that many that it will become impossible to bring counters to stuff.

Also the effect you get out of a skill should be in line with the amount of thought/skill it takes to use it.
E.g. Searing flames can be spammed pretty much indefinately by selecting a target and hitting the SF button every 3 seconds doing massive damage. Whereas a well placed diversion can severely screw a team over but a randomly placed one generally doesnt do much/anything.

I do however agree that a lot of skills (read: the entire paragon profession among other stuff) look like there wasn't a lot of thought put into, either that or they were rushed.

I'm not so much angry or frustrated as I am confused as to why A.net keeps making the same mistakes..

I read her post fairly thoroughly, but you obviously haven't read mine. If you can't handle a more sophisticated means of making a point, perhaps I should state it more bluntly: There needs to be pvp reps to pass information to designers.

Now I can elaborate: If Gaile is passing information to designers, then designers won't receive anything useful about pvp. Andrew Patrick and Gaile Gray are incompetent at pvp, and unless they either make an effort to understand pvp mechanics, they shouldn't be related to that sector. Don't get me wrong, I think Gaile is fine at passing things on about pve, but she really doesn't have the background necessary to make reports about anything related to pvp. However, because she and adrew patrick ARE the only two reps we're engaged with, and anet doesn't seem like they're planning to add pvp CRs, then it is their responsibility (you know, the job they're getting paid for?) to observe and understand both sides of the game and make appropriate reports. As it is right now, but are largely incompetent. In line with JR's very accurate affirmations, the two should do their jobs. If anet doesn't assign separate CRs for the two very different portions of the game, then it is your job to understand both. You're getting paid for it. If you can't handle that, someone who can needs to be here talking to us.

I think frojack's point was that the devs don't get their info from the CR people; they read the forums themselves.

Meaning people involved in pvp would be getting the info anyway, as they're reading forums. Thus, talking about how the CR reps need to know both sides of the game is irrelevant.

At least, I think that's what he means. My question is, if that's true, why have any CR reps at all?

EDIT: Answered my own question. Let me use an example.

Let's say an HA dev goes to do his daily forum surfing and finds a bunch of threads on HA, and makes note of what they say.
The CR report comes in, highlighting some of those threads for a closer look.
The HA dev goes to reread the threads and think more critically on them.

So while the devs themselves would be reading everything, the CR reps would be the ones highlighting the most important to reread and think critically on. I think. That's how it's coming off to me, at least.

Its not just about the devs getting the info, its about having a working dialogue between the players and the devs, which pvpers just didnt have. The only times we got close were when izzy (then later also morello some) were able to talk to us. Whenever that happened my faith in arenanet went up because I actually knew what was going on up there, I knew that something was being done, issues were being addressed, etc. As soon as those two weren't allowed to speak to us anymore (for no good reason) that dialogue died. That, imo, was a big mistake. That sort of thing should have been encouraged, not killed because someone quoted one of them on the guild hall. Seriously.

to put things in perspective:

(btw, i'm all about people who appreciate the efforts of others)
my job...i work at a house with 4 clients. my clients are: a. developementally disabled (retarded...retarded with autism) and b. mentally ill (crazy...schizoaffective...schizoaffective with personality disorders...shizoaffective with personality disorders and obsessive/compulsive disorder...etc.) and all kinds of post-traumatic stress disorder. needless to say, i relate profoundly with the developers of every game i've ever played (except for the deveoplers at sony for Star Wars: Galaxies who are more like the clients on my site than the staff...which is a different story).

part of my job is understanding that (despite my efforts to get them the hell out of a "program" and living on their own) they will fight me every step of the way. i (staff...lead staff at that...equivilant to the seargent of the platoon...i've been offered my own site though i know better) attempt to teach them to live on their own despite their attempts to get their [stuff] wiped for them perpetually.

anet's customer relations (we'll call that, "gaile," for convenience) has essentially the same job as me. they're there to make sure that the community is represented in the decisions of the deveolpers (like i make sure my supervisor understands the needs of both my clients and the staff underneath me) before and after decisions are made. sometimes the needs of the clients (mitigating the, "i'm sick of this crap," attitude that occurs frequently in my profession) requires me (and gaile) to go out on a limb for the good of the client in question (portions of the gw community in this analogy) to ensure that their needs are met within their rights despite their behavior.

for instance, i had a client that wanted to go with his special olympics team to phoenix, az for the state softball championship. i hate phoenix (downhill from tucson where i live...WAY hotter city and nothing in the positive column...anyone who remembers the, "gin blossums"...they were from the phoenix metro area) but decided that my boy was just anxious about the trip (explaining the holes he put in the wall and the multiple times we (i) had to take him down to avoid injury to the people around him) so i pressured my boss' boss and my boss' boss' boss in order to let him go. he and i were allowed to go to phoenix (i got a wicked nasty sun-burn and a miserable weekend away from home...he had a great time...his team came in second against the flagstaff team which (per strange special olympics rules) had an unreasonable amount of non-disabled players) and he had a great time without any negative behavior.

the only difference i can see between, "gaile," and myself is that the unnamed client i mentioned now respects me as someone who is looking out for him and he trusts that i will do everything in my power to make sure that he is, "hooked up".

"gaile" still has to put up with a bunch of loony retards whining about nothing. unfortunately, that's part of the job and i (as well as, "gaile") know that. that's still the least, "fun," part of our jobs.

I think some of the problems come from not knowing what ANet is working on, I'm sure no one knew about the Auto Target update. I feel that Updates don't need to be handed out once a month full of new features, they need to be handed out as soon as they're finished. I personally would like to know who's in charge of what, and for them to post and keep us updated.
-Anti Oath
(7/8 of my posts get deleted so hopefully this one wont :P)

I would like to know just how you can be so confident about this. The only comment I've seen of late with regards to Gaile's ability in PvP was about her poisoning her entire team. I'd like to point out that that comment is from an interview in which she was talking about an event that occured ROUGHLY THREE YEARS AGO when Guild Wars had friendly fire mechanics in it's code. So unless you have actively and knowingly played with or against her in some form of PvP, kindly keep your opinions about their competency in a given area to yourself as you have absolutely nothing substantial to back it up. Now I don't know enough about her background other than what is on the arena.net website, but being as she used to write for a game fansite as well as admined it, so I think she has a fairly extensive gaming background and probably knows quite a bit more than you are giving her credit for.

I'm one of the happy people who does not usually post here (this, if I am not mistaken, will be my first post although I've been reading this forum for many, many months).

I'm an active GW gamer, with two accounts, 10 characters whom I actually play, and far too many hours over the past year and a half sunk into GW when I probably should have been doing other things. I'm also a female and one of the older people playing the game (50+). And I know something about games...I was on that call with my partner Francis Crawford talking to the GW developers recently about GW's underlying technology.

I love the game. I find the various changes, both nerfs and buffs, challenging at times, but I can almost always find a new way to do something that is no longer possible because of a change. Having been a member of many online communities, I know it's true that the number of people who actually post on the web about one of their passions (whether it be a game or a book or a TV show or whatever) is tiny compared the the total audience. So I'm surprised that Anet pays as much attention as they do to what gets suggested on these boards.

I do think user feedback can be very valuable to developers, and I'm glad they listen. But they know what's going on behind the scenes, while we players only know what we see on the client. Ultimately, I trust the developers to do their job and balance the game. In general, I think they do a terrific job.

As for you community reps, I don't envy you your jobs Hang in there, Andrew and Gaile, 'cause there ARE a lot of us who very much appreciate what both you and the creative team are doing to maintain and improve the game!

*Mod edit: reference to deleted post removed*

i was using the "easily accessible" words to describe my clients (instead of, "severely mentally ill and developementally disabled individuals," which takes way longer to type. i guess my use of metaphor there kinda muddled and any "intentional extensions" of the metaphor would only apply to those who (like my clients) see those who are trying to help them (despite new medicare regulations to keep us busy filling out paperwork instead of interacting with our clients) as a monolithic sort of, "the man," who is constantly trying to keep them, "down".

i actually only read the op before posting and didn't realize that gaile was even mentioned by others before posting what i did. i was more reacting to another post on suggesting a, "gaile minipet," where some people advocated torturing such a minipet.

i would also like to clarify that, "retarded," is not synonmous with, "stupid". my clients are actually very intelligent and successfully manipulative but suffer from an inability to communicate their ideas to others.

no matter how much i complain about them, my clients are also kinda like my children. i won't take any offence at any "indirect implications" that my clients are somehow "less than human" either.

sometimes the federal government or the clients' guardians also make it hard to help the clients (now that i realize that gaile was mentioned in this post prior to my post and i need to elaborate on the metaphor).

oh "f" it. the people that will get it will get it. the others won't lose any sleep over it. i've already posted too much on the subject. if people think there needs to be a pvp cr rep, they should ask for one like an adult would. i do both pve and pvp (neither of which is a single monolithic group) and i don't see any real problems but wtf ever.

gvg players can make actual money...the other pvper's can't. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AH

now do i "fit in"? should i blame it on gaile? if she brought that to the developement team and they laughed at her is it her fault?

in a game where pvp tournaments make money and pve makes "titles", there's little room for those of us who pvp to cry.

end

of

story.

I wonder if you actually read the whole thread? There have been posts, where people with a sound-standing knowledge of the service industry have asked for this and even explained why they ask for such changes. How is this not a mature way of setting out ones concerns?
However, i'd like to see this thread staying on topic, instead of people randomly grabbing sentences out of an entirely well thought post and trying to discredit said user by using random postcount+1 no. 15621, namely: How would you know, you never played with him/her.
I don't know how deep you are involved with the High-Tier PvP Community, but those who spend their time in gwp or High-Tier Guilds may remember the situation, when Gaile after 1 year of Guild Wars going Gold, she still thought AoE affects your own party members as well. I don't disrespect her for that, i just say it shows a lack of knowledge PvP-wise. So did the Poster your Quote was taken from.

I don't post often, but i felt the need to let you know, that there are people who are actually interested in the original topic.

Thanks for your Time
Semy

So we can now conclude that;

A)devs do read the forums
B)CR potentially pass on the wrong threads/info
C)since they(devs) read the forums and hardly any of the changes that the community feels should be done, aren't carried out;
i-a) could be a lie
ii- or the devs do not agree with the community on proposed voiced opinions on the forums

It's evident that all the above is fact, has been for months. Find another game since we aren't getting the changes needed.

I just wanted to say that I do sort of agree (to a point) with one thing Andrew said, "that happy players are playing are playing the game and unhappy players are posting in the forums".

When I was new to Prophesies, I spent a lot of time in this and other forums while I was learning the ropes. Once I was up and running, I stopped. If there was some specific info I needed, I turned to the guildwiki.

I was a happy, contented PvE player (over 3000 hours now) through Proph, Factions and, now, NF. Wasn't too thrilled with the switch to timed mission bonuses in Factions - I thought it showed a little laziness on the dev's part in not wanting to spend a bit of time creating that extra bonus content and, also, just *my* opinion that speed /= skill - but I got over it.

Then came the SR nerf. Boy, that got my dander up.

So, yes, I stopped playing the game and came here to voice my displeasure over the change. I complained pretty loudly, although I don't recall ever directing any invective or vitriol (like calling them poopyheads) at the CRT or the devs (maybe just a little at the PvPers whose complaints we felt had instigated the change).

After a couple of weeks, when it became apparent that we were wasting our time, that the avalanche of complaints had garnered nothing more than a vague "we're looking into it", I went back to playing the game (just not with my nec ), checking in on occassion to see if the fix was imminent.

I did notice during that couple of weeks, though, that a lot of people were complaining about a lot of things and that a lot of these complaints were long-standing ones that hadn't been addressed.

When Andrew says that unhappy people are posting, he might want to examine "why" these people are unhappy in the first place.

And that all comes back to Anet, themselves, because they keep changing the game that people have been enjoying pretty much as it is.

Now, no one objects to new stuff, or improvements to existing stuff, but too often many of these changes seem willy-nilly or haphzard or just plain not thought through very well. Some are seen by an awful lot of people as absolute disasters, like the SR nerf.

And then Anet seems to often compound the problem with their response to the unhappiness being voiced.

The SR nerf is a good example of this:

First off, this nerf came during a "test" week. When the complaints started rolling in, the proper response should have been IMHO to revert it back while they worked on a different solution.

But, no, we were basically told, "tough, get over it, get used to it - it's staying". And Gaile amiably chirping that "gee, most people seem pleased with the change" certainly didn't help any to dampen the fires.

Then, after a couple of weeks, as the complaints continued to roll in, we were told, "umm, yes, the devs think this fix maybe *was* a little inelegant, they're looking into it". Almost a tacit admission that the change was not well thought through in the first place and all the more reason to revert it back until they could come up with something better.

Reverting would have also had the advantage of stopping the avalanche of complaints dead in its tracks but Anet chose instead to let the situation mushroom.

I totally agree with Andrew that we should all make the effort to keep our complaints on a civilized level. By the same token, taking the tack that "the devs are pros (and you're morons)" doesn't help the situation, from a PR perspective.

There really seems to be a dichotomy between what Anet's right hand ("we listen to our customers") and its left hand ("it's *our* game and we'll do with it as we please, and you can like it or lump it") are saying.

In case I haven't said this enough in the past, I want to thank Anet and commend it for making this incredibly awesome (for the most part) game.

I was diagnosed with cancer just a few months after starting to play (in remission now, thanks for asking) and it really helped to take my mind off all I was going through during that time.

Remember that, if we didn't care so much about this wonderful game, we wouldn't bother to take the time and effort to complain about things we might see as wrong - we would simply leave and not come back, as too many of my firends and guildies have done.

Probably unsurprisingly, I am in complete agreement with my partner.

I'd like to also say that some people seem to be forgetting that there really are two different kinds of issues:

1. Questions that involve resource allocation.
2. Questions that just involve opinions and judgment about gameplay.

On #1, I think people are being waaay presumptive in noisily asserting what ANet should and shouldn't do. Obviously, I think looking behind the curtain at how such decisions are made is really interesting*. But while I'd like to see our curiosity gratified -- resource allocations are ANet's to make, with very little "owed" to the players at all about any specific choices.

*And if you can add your voice to Mike Crouch's about getting me a followup interview I'd really appreciate it, as presumably would the many thousands of readers who clicked through to read the writeups of my first interview. Including the German-speakers, who actually outnumbered the thousands who came from here and other English-speaking sites.

As for #2 -- reasonable people can disagree. Given the information sources they have*, it seems evident that the game designers make reasonable choices. Do I understand why so many skills have to be well-nigh useless? No. But I played Magic: The Gathering for a while, and I didn't understand the equivalent phenomenon in that game either. It just seems to be an endemic problem.

*I have a hunch that the next game ANet develops will be better "instrumented" to AUTOMATICALLY capture information about gameplay. E.g., Sony Online is running Cognos software to understand what people do in Star Wars: Galaxies, and I'd be surprised to hear that ANet is doing anything similar. (That's because of the database design choices I wrote about.) But that's unlikely to happen in GW Classic. One of those resource allocation thingies I mentioned ...

Bottom line: I see no reason to claim that the game designers are doing anything other than an excellent job. If any of the people complaining were plucked from their amateur status and given equivalent responsibilities, they almost certainly would, on the whole, make much worse decisions.

Sigh. Thread is slowly being ruined by people posting with attitudes of "stop bitching, it's fine". Lack of communication with your consumers is not fine, and never will be fine, in any sense of the word "fine".

So we've heard that the devs apparently get the info themselves while reading forums. If that's the case, they must be listening to the wrong people, as evidenced by updates that don't really please any of the PvP community (I mean those who actually play seriously, not the once-in-a-while, couldn't care less people), and failure to address any of the major issues in HA/GvG atm. I don't know why, nor can I do much but speculate, but I do know HA & GvG are dying from lack of communication between those who actually play these areas and those whose job it is to keep them balanced and fun. When will ritspike be addressed? Or hexway, or kill count? I don't know, because even with the resounding outcry against each I mentioned, we haven't heard much of anything. Even a "never, we think it's fine" would do, because then I'd know it's time to move on. Oh wait, Expose Defenses has a 15s recharge! It's all good now, that solves everything!

Pretty much says it all.

i agree that there's a point to posting suggestions and concerns on the forums which are different than complaints and personal attacks on people.

whereas i'm sure gaile isn't gvg-ing all over the place, i believe her to be reasonable and intent on doing her job well. if any of us were her and saw a post reporting that, "effing this that and the other thing suck and so do you," then we'd file that in our heads as one of those kinds of posts. if we saw a post with an explanation of what's going on and what the problems are with it (for instance...6 player ha is now once again 8 player ha...probably originally an attempt to get more people into it) with enough community support, then that would be something to pass on. if the rest of the team disregards it...well then...she did her job.

as far as i can tell, she's no great pvp tactician...nor is she farming the uw daily and nailing hard mode. that's really not her job...it's ours.

anyway. i initially posted on this thread when it was intended to be a warm fuzzy for the people that give me something to do after work. i think i'm done with it now.

btw, rapture and chicken ftw...read the op. you guys are actually the monkeys in the middle. this wasn't originally a complaint thread. it was hi-jacked to be so by y'all.

What I see as the prime message lately is this: You want to know what we're doing. You feel we are not telling you enough. You want details, and explanations, and even conversation. The Dev Updates were designed to help address the desire for details, but obviously some are asking for more.

However, conversation takes time, and details and explanations are not without risk. There is a very good reason for not developing in a glass room, for not giving details of what the team is doing. I know some disagree, and they will say "Just tell us the top line info, just give us a working list." The answer--not my answer, but the official answer--is "No." Every time we say "We're going to look at [something,]" somebody takes "a look" as an absolute promise of change. We say we're making an update, and someone starts posting about "HUGE update promised." If we say "[something] is coming" people get impatient for it. If we give a tentative deadline, that gets written in stone in somebody's mind, and he starts a storm of disagreeable protests when it doesn't happen. If there's a delay, or a change in priorities, or a decision to not offer that something at all, there's an enormous outcry.

If there was a "List of What We're Working On" it would be scrutinized, second-guessed, and argued about until the cows come home. If there was such a list, people would be arguing about how to change the order on the list, or criticizing the priorities, or yelling that such-and-such wasn't on the list. How dare the developers set the priorities, huh? It's a fact with any game: Yes, you may want [this thing], but unfortunately, the developers are working on [that other thing]. And all the insults, the QQ posting, the calling for my head on a pike isn't going to change this truth: The developers are in charge of developing this game, and ultimately the developers will make the decisions about everything that goes into the game. Your input is welcome, listened to, respected, and used, when possible. But if you want to play an actual role in making decisions or setting priorities, you are going to have to get a job at ArenaNet.

The irony here is that someone *ahem* is blamed for what are, in your opinion, "bad decisions." But that someone isn't in a decision-making position. And if you think the wrong decisions are being made because someone passed along the wrong message, or didn't pass along your message, you're not paying attention to what I've been telling you, with complete honestly, about the process: I can argue, I can cite forum threads, I can speak against a decision, or push for a different one. But in the end, the decision is outside my control. I can't reject your ideas outright. I can't adopt them wholesale. That is someone else's job, and they do that job very, very well. I cannot change HA. I could not alter Jade Isle. I can't add a hairdresser or change the rules for the ATS. I cannot repair the clipping on the warrior's armour. I can, however, relay your concerns about those things, as I'm supposed to. As I do.

The relationship isn't necessarily about "conversation." It's must more important that we are listening. Ever heard the expression, "You never learn anything with your mouth open?" You learn by reading, listening, and watching the discussions within the community. You guys don't really care what I think about A, B, or C. You only want to know that the team knows what you think about those things. And the team does learn that, through my team's reports, through our heads-up on links, emails, hallways nudges, lunchtime conversations, weekend and late-night emails, and very importantly, through their own reading of the posts that you make.

The people who are involved with skill decisions, or art, or programming, will react to your requests, suggestions, complaints, and demands as they see fit. I assume that they are tracking your concerns, reading the community reports, following the links they are sent. I will say again that they are not getting their information, first and foremost, through me or my team. They are supposed to get their information directly from you. But the strange thing is that when they do, and when they do not react as you wish, you point to CR and say "You didn't do your job," or even more pathetically, "You don't know how to do your job." Oh, no, that's not it at all. You have been heard, but as The Stones say, "You can't always get what you want."

So here's the bottom line:

• We understand that you would like more information, detail, and advance disclosure.
• Company leaders feel that it is not in out best interest to provide the depth of information that you seek.
• We are committed to offering as much information as we are able.
• I have asked (I ask nearly daily) to give more information.
• My requests, for the most part, have been declined.
• I will ask again, but I believe that there will not be a change in philosophy that will lead to "to do" lists or weekly updates on design progress.
• You can hope. I can hope. But neither of us can make that decision.
• But know we are on the same side about this subject.

So, when a skill is improved, or a map is altered, or an emote is expanded, or the interface is improved, or a new mechanic is added, please give your thanks to the designers, artists, and programmers who made that happen.

And if you don't like the change, please feel free to blame me. 'Cause after all, that's what I'm here for.

All I really want is a Punishing Shot buff....oh and those hairdressers might be nice too.

That's it? Why, that's so easy, let me just whip up that code change and we'll both be happier, eh?

Can I blame you for the fact that I still like this game, or should I blame the rest of the team as well?

Nah, sorry, Tiny Killer. I only get the #@(%&% comments directed at me. I guess you'll have to take a chance and rely on me to relay your positive thoughts to the other team members.

I am not worthy of such.

Actually, yes. If Punishing was buffed to where it was a power bow attack elite on par with Burning Arrow, (Let's say, +10...30 damage and 6 second recharge) I'd shut my mouth and keep it shut about anything I wasn't happy about from now on, because I'd be satisfied that my wish was heard and granted.

Whether those decisions are biased or not, we shall never know...

You are wrong, I don't want the team to merely know what I think, I want to be able to rely on the PR team to advocate for me. The thing about a conversation is it gives way to understanding for both parties. If you understand, then you can appreciate the strength of feeling and the reasoning behind various positions. If you cannot understand, then what good can you possibly do? I mean this in a strictly non-pejorative sense, if you do not understand our position how can you possibly represent it? It's very nice that the team knows our desires, but that isn't what we are looking for here. This is about a community who does its very best to avoid the PR team and the reasons therefore. We already know that the devs know our desires because we work around the PR team for precisely that reason. You are offering us a one way street we aren't interested in. It is not enough to say that you are in the shadows listening, watching and reporting. We do not want that, what we want is a dialogue. Because saying that you're looking into it is the same thing, in effect, as not saying anything at all. We're not saying the PR team has the authority to make changes, but they should have the authority to tell us about what is being changed. Further, the PR team should understand why I want something changed, because then problems can be adressed at their source.

So you are wrong when you say that I don't care what you think about a given issue. In fact, I care so much I want the PR team to get into GvG so they can come to the conclusions of every other PvPer. It is in fact of extreme importance how you and the rest of the PR team feel on an issue, because to fully advocate for us you need to understand us, and you cannot understand us reporting from the sidelines.

against my better judgement (and my hubby telling me not to) I will post.

what makes people think that the pve people are happy as well? I pve, I am not happy.....however, I dont have anything more than a fun evening at stake with my gaming in gw. So maybe thats it, pve people are just more easy going.

2ndly, yelling at Gaile and Andrew wont accomplish much other than getting it off your chest, if so write it out, preview post and then delete it.
Constructive criticism is what is needed and I do realize that the media we are dealing with allows for such anonymity that people feel they can say anything and get away with it, but still we should try to say things that as the recepient of it would like to hear (eg how would you like to hear "you suck at your job" or 'you have no clue what you are doing"...so walk a mile in those people shoes before you write out that nastey-gram.

I have been in CS as well (worked in the declines dept for a major cc---you want angry people!)....so I have some idea of what the CRs are up against.
However, we also do not know the full roles of these people and they may actually be trying to get our points across (whether or not its done well we also have no clue)----so we are assuming way too much here.

And the point of my post. I agree something needs to be done, people are indeed leaving the game due to frustration that they feel their needs are being ignore and/or unmet. The powers that be dont need to tell us everything that is going on, but we also need to know that we are being heard---there is nothing more frustrating than talking to someone who is not listening, raising your voice to hope they hear and then they say or do something so totally inconcruent with what you were talking about. (and then being told its your fault.)

Ah whatever, it just means that in the long run their probably wont be as many old timers going over to gw2 (me for one) so they at anet will see sales drop and wonder why it happened. And the few that stay will point at these archieved threads and say: "we told you about this in this thread--here".

so the game will continue no matter what I (not just a one voice in millions---I have multiple copies of the game so I count a few more than one) say or do. They already have our money and they are not required to fix a dang thing about the game if they so desire, no matter how loudly we cry, scream or bash.

constructive criticism is all that's coming from posters like DIH49. granted there's a lot of insult tossing by others but I hope that people can read through a thread and can realize to listen up when someone who knows what they're talking about and can post it in a readable way that conveys their messages.

As I was wandering around in a stupor the other night (drunken or otherwise) I got to thinking about this 'ole game. I got to thinking that I've paid ~$150 CDN for the GW trilogy and not one penny more since then. I got to thinking about how much effort has been put into designing and troubleshooting these games. I got to thinking about the content, and how much we've been given, and how we have been rewarded for our participation in these games.

We've been given free content like Sorrow's Furnace. We've been allowed to participate in contests to design weapons and cape emblems. The dev team have gone out of thier way to listen to us on everything we've had to say. The dev team have done everything in thier power to add more to the game, but keep the additions consistent with the original vision they had for the great world of Guild Wars. They've given us so much more to do with titles and hard mode and repeatable content like DoA. There's always somewhere to go and something more to do.

After 4,867 hours and 43 minutes of play at a little over three cents per hour I am 100% confident that I've gotten far more than I've paid for out of this game and I'm still collecting. I've been given the opportunity to play through three continents on two difficulties (and am now currently vanquishing). I've been given the opportunity to mercilessly slaughter countless thousands of human enemies on the battlegrounds of Heroes Ascent and a smattering of guild halls and I've been handily rewarded for my successes. My e-peen is a full 8 inches larger than it was when I began Guild Wars (your results may vary).

We've even been given a way to carry on the legacy of our favorite characters from GW1 to GW2. The dev team have far from forgotten about us. At every chance and bend in the road I know they've been looking out for us as a whole. There have been times when I've posted on this very forum my complaints about the way that certain updates and implementations have been handled. Pobody's Nerfect. I've had issues with PvP balancing in the past, as many of us had. I don't like change. I especially despise large changes, but I try to keep my posting limited to only when I think changes have been unfair or unreasonable (and it ain't none too often).

I defy anyone, anywhere to create a game that will be perfect in the eyes of everyone, everywhere. At best the only thing you'll be able to create is a utilitarian product, and that's just what Guild Wars is. Go get 24 friends and then the 25 of you try to create a perfect concensus among 3.5 million people on a subject as diverse as an entire gaming world. GL buddeh.

I've had my issues with Guild Wars in the past, but maybe I've been more fair in considering the issues than those that Patrick is talking about. Like him, I believe that whenever someone has a legitimate concern they should voice it, but also like him I believe there's no excuse for abusing the representatives that have elected to come to US for OUR input, no matter how frustrated we may be at the time. You can still display some common courtesy over the internet, and considering the fine product that they've created for us I think it's only common sense anyways.

IDK, whatever.

-Jessyi

As large and grandiose as some of the replies to the devs in this post have been, they by in large come back to the balance of giving and witholding information. What I believe many fail to realize is that everyone has a different opinion of what that perfect balance is. Unfortunately, there is a gross lack of comprehension in the fact that they are only 1 person and there are actually other people that play the game. Not only that, but many fail to comprehend that not everyone that plays the game posts in this forum. Not everyone who plays this game post in the same language. I find it pretty arrogant for so many people to claim that they have a better understanding of the community than the people who have a job dedicated to knowing the community and work on a daily basis with other people who are employed to know the community.

What it comes down to is that a CR's job is to do their best to please as many people as possible with decisions they don't get to make. Sad to say, the simple lack of understanding in this simple fact by so many is staggering.

Well, Gaile says that they can't work in a glass room. Although is opposed to my preferences I can see why and so I'm happy to go along with it

See everyone, reasons make happier people

Have a good day Giale and Aneters. Don't let this thread make you sad
Go out, have a smoke/apple (lol) and look at the big blue sky,then think how great life is.

As a long time and most of the time happy GW player, I don't post surgestions on the forum.
However, this does not mean I am/was totaly happy with the situation.
From my limited perspective, there are/were some problems in GW.
SR could be considered a problem from some points of perspective.
Hexway/Paraway/Ritspike can be considered a problem.
My Mesmer not being able to join Deep/Urgoz's/DoA groups can be considered a problem.
And there are some other, smaller problems.

I do care about those things, but they don't ruin my GW experience.
There is the individual skill/attribute that causes a problem.
That's annoying, but easily identified (and hopefully fixed).
However, there is this more generic problem, like Hexway/Ritspike/Paraway, mesmers in elite areas. Even the SR problem has to do with this problem.
Even Lootscaling was implemented because of a more generic problem (bots in this case)
I think this thing that some call meta-game is worth a discussion with the A-net representatives/developers.
Both the PvP and PvE side.

As a mainly PvE player, I don't mind nerfs, I will work out a new build if it's a real problem.
However, I don't see how some nerfs affect the meta-game.

If I could make a wish, I would wish for a seperate (moderator approval for first post) forum or something where this meta-game can be discussed in more detail, knowing that A-net developers do watch and adjust the game if something seems to get out of control. And the representatives pass the developers thoughts there (why they don't consider Hexway a problem atm, for example).
This forum would not have single skill discussions, but how the game disfunctions at a higher level at some points.
At this point, some issues are addressed, but others remain and it's not clear if this is because of time/resources or developers not seeing/understanding the meta-game.

You got the nail on the head. There's no comprehension of PvP complaints from our Customer Service Rep. Zero. Not only is there no sign of understanding, but the updates we get barely address the balance problems, leading us to believe that the message isn't getting through. Of course the PvP community is frustrated.

No place for debates? I think you are wrong. Lets take for instance a group of skinheads holding a meeting on their view of things and that is open for all general population to discuss with then. That's very intimidating, and the few courageous enough to take them up in discussion would get beaten up within an inch of their lives. So they are 90%+ of the opinion, and that makes their point of view right? That's what often happens in threads here that concern a certain PvP or PvE issue, where the 'other' type of players are flamed out fo the thread and it becomes a turmoil revolving around the same opinions. That does not make take place out of debate because all it happens is that people that share the same/close opinions gather up and silence the rest.

Gaile:

I saw you address personal attacks and such on yourself.

But the reoccuring question that still goes unanswered:

Do you think it'd be a hunky dory idea for Anet to hire a PvP oriented CR liason just like you and andrew, that is availible in game to at least ease the tension on the issues that make so many quit? Even if they could do nothing, you know it'd be a wonderful remedy just having someone to voice real pvp details and problems to.

People do quit, often permanently. I have lost two of my favorite guilds to people getting fed up with things that aren't fixed(including the one currently under my name, im the only one of 14 that didn't quit), or the time it took to get improvements made. If we had someone to lay it on the level, speak to players about PvP and at least ease their nerves (even if nothing will be done for some time) I believe it would have a great effect.

There are already so many qualified community members that contribute so much for free, why can they not be considered?

cha cha

What the prime message lately is we want change, we WANT direct conversation. We've been waiting way to long and have not had serious changes to balance the game.

TBH the problem is how you deliver info to the people. You say it so unclear that everyone receiveing it differently. On the GuildWars.com if there was a list stating exactly what's going on from the ANet staff so there wouldn't be so much confusion. Just TRY this and see how it goes.

Another thing that would solve many problems is having polls ingame or on GuildWars.com, so you get info on what people want. That would also let us coment on things before they're even developed to tell you what we would like out of it.

Then why doesn't ANet tell us about these delays and cancelations? Give us an exact answer, that IS what we want anyways.

You've never tried this approach, but yet you're bashing the idea...Once again, just TRY this. If it's not working theres no one stopping ANet from not posting this list.

This is the kind of thing we want to see, to bad it never went through.

Then hire new people?

I'm sure a lot of the people bashing you all the time don't know this, but I feel that this won't stop until we get to talk to the developers.

Could you post what the Developers had to say (or have them post themselves) about this Thread, I think just hearing what they and knowing that we want changes would be the best place to start repairing Guild Wars and the community.

-Anti Oath

Why some people are pissed is because you are buffing skills you KNOW people won't use after the buff, and ignoring bugs, which make skills that would be worthwhile, useless.

But really, I think you guys do a good job, but fixing bugs and things would really smoothe things over a lot.

And "Look" turns into "Change" Because half the skills are obviously broken. Looking into anti-melee hexes? There's so many anti-melee hexes, and then you decide to actually BUFF one of them? And you think that makes people want to praise A-net?

It does. Mesmers love you. The other vast majority of PvPers doesn't.

And because we don't like the message, we will continue to Blow the messanger to hell.


I'm not trying to sound sadistic, (Although I am...) I am attempting to convey how at least, a few people Might feel.