Some Info about Community Relations

Well lets see Galie, when you say to us. We are aware of your concerns and the dev team is currently looking into HA. Then 2 months later nothings changed. Annd then you say that HAs not on the devs teams high list exactly youve done enough work on it. Do you think this is asking for more. I think its kind of reasonable seeing you seem to have taken everyone on a rollercoster ride making rather lets say *statements to reasure us which clearly are not all that they seem.*

Understandable, but with issues such as HA where basicaly your losing your player base and everyone seems to believe you dont care and are not even intrested about doing anything. I think you should consider relaying such information. Infact when was the last time you gave any information to the HA community. The last piece i heard was, oh ye where monitoring the mechanics and that was like 4 months ago.

Many people think your basically trying to take us for chumps and your plans for pvp HA which after reading some of your statements i now believe, are zilch. A majority think its basically because anet realised the pve player base brings in more cash and they have basically ruind the HA community that they have realised it would be more profitable to invest resources into the pve side than the pvp side that is HA. Now im just highlighting this is what many people are starting to think. Where our reasurance, wheres our info that this isnt so.

Dosent seem so to me in terms of HA. If i recall, players have offered valid suggestions for a long time now since you implimented 6v6. Oh wait lets look at what was used of that, erm 8v8 9 months lather and ermmm..... oh ye there is nothing else. You already told us HAs further down your list and its good you have done because it now means the players can inform you on how big a mistake that is.

The list is clearly flawed, HA a dying community, left in ruin by anet. A simple update can fix it and yet you have it further down your list when its been over a year and you still havent done much about it. Yes that sounds genious to me to be honest. As for the developers, i think everys aware they make the final decsions and thats why kill count has been forced upon us. And HA is in the state it is, because to me and other players, it seems they want to do it how they think it would be best which is obviously not working.

One question i would politely like to ask. You say you send the team reports on things they have missed. Has the issue of HA and the fact people dont like HA been sent yet? This is just a question of curiosity. Also, if they are reading the posts that we make. This really does not inspire any confidence because it appears many of the posts in terms of HA such as HA (Remove kill count, bring back alter maps, do a skill balance). Have been ignored because these have basically been almost the only posts for like months now and yet nothing has been done on it.

how are we ment to know this is true, iv heard this many times now, from you, from alex. Yet nothing has changed, its almost like hollow words and i feel the more you say it the less i believe you and loss trust.

Amazing Thread tbh.
I agree with a lot that's been said here. If anyone wants to talk about Pvp, they need to actually play PvP at a decent level. This, sadly, includes devs and CR's.
The fact that PvP'ers don't feel like they were being listened to, and without getting personal I think the last skill update confirmed a lot of those thoughts. Hexes are undealt with, but barrage no longer removes glyphs (!), you basically recreated the old Critical Chop, only you made it better, and expose defenses has a 15 sec recharge now (SP sins can only spike every 15 seconds! talking about pointless).
But most of all, I think IT'S TOO LATE.
Too many players have already left the game. As long as Ensign still plays, there will be enough reliable input about what the PvP community wants and needs, but the big active community there once was is gone. Fury is coming, a lot of other games are coming, and unless PvP is fixed in the next few months, Guild Wars will be done for as a competitive game. It's sad, because Guild Wars has a pretty unique combat system, and in a balanced metagame it's pretty much the best online game I've ever played Or offline for that matter, but I think you've already gone too far in not listening to the pvp community.
There are more Fury devs on the Team Quitter forums than GW devs. That should tell you something.

I don't PvP much, so I don't have a horse in that race ...

And this goes beyond CR, but what the heck ...

Are you guys aware of what Wizards of the Coast does to increase R&D/testing staffing for Magic the Gathering? Basically, they hire some of the champion Magic players and bring them inhouse.

Perhaps, if the PvP part of the business is big enough to worry about, ANet could look into that.

EDIT: Frankly, I think investing comparable resources into PvE instead would indeed make more players happier ...

Sounds to me like the developers heard, understood, and disagreed... or agreed and decided not to act now for any number of reasons. In any event, it's hard to believe that the tone currently coming from unhappy PvPers will persuade them to change their minds.

The only thing I and a fair number of players are waiting for is balances in hard mode for hero/henchers to be able to complete the game.

Several excelent points and ideas have been disscussed by a vast majority of players regarding this balance, but nothing is ever done.

All I am doing atm in GW is playing RA and solo farming UW. Nothing else is working for me. I would love to have been able to test and play with the new PVe skills, however my heroes cant use them.

Thank you for ignoring solo players again.

I'd just like to see more reasoning behind their actions/inactions. They changed a bunch of skills but didnt touch the most annoying and overused builds in HA. Its like they want those cheap types of builds to exist. Its been months since the last skill update and all they could do was that? Are we going to have to wait another 3 months before an update like the last? A skill update like the last isnt the whole problem. Its that it took so long for it to come and we'll probably have to wait even longer before another one. All we hear is "we're watching". It just makes people scratch their heads and we hear nothing about it.

I have commented on this when Gaile did the same thing on TGH. My response was very similar to JR yet generated a much different response.

That said, i agree with GhostRaptor. The posts such as the one on GWO should not be made by a competent CR. The community, are her and Arenanet's money, their livelihood. If they wish to harm that relationship by posting such disdain for the community then it is their loss.

Is hatred for both the PvP and PvE community, with that post over at GWO, a predominately PvE forum, as well as Gaile's opinion over at TGH, a predominately PvP forum, something that the whole Arenanet staff share? I would be wrong to say yes but i am sure she is not a 'rogue' CRM. She has to share some opinions with the other staff of Arenanet. That hunch is confirmed with Andrew's post who goes on to blame the community. In all fairness to Andrew that is the first post of his to rub me the wrong way but it doesn't excuse that Anet and their staff are working their butt off to remove as much sales from their bottom line.

Personally, i rather hear nothing from the CR department than what was stated over at GWO and here.

I think that it's quite clear that within the Guild Wars staff, either fear or pride means that everybody must adopt a no-fault attitude, that is, nothing can be their fault, it all must be the communities.

At the end of the day, this makes for bad results for all involved.

Excellent post Andrew. The moaners and groaners on the forum sites forget what a small minority they really are. I read the forums when I need a good laugh and it never fails to produce. If you say goods things about ANET you get called every name in the book. The community has every right to suggest what they would like to see and changes that might help, they don't have a right to demand those same things. If the game is that intolerable there is a simple solution, don't play. Again I would like to thank you the post and I am just waiting for the flames I will be getting for this posting. Bring it On, I have a thick skin and the majority on my side.

In relation to what you have said, would you say the HA community is really such a small minority. Yes everyone can decide not to play but dude if you didnt notice thats whats been going on in HA. No ones been playing hence why you find such a puni amount of players. I believe anet would rather people played or stuck around and complained rather than quiting becaus ethat = a decrease in revenue. As for the HA community. I feel we have a right to demand the changes to it such as the removal of kill count because having it just makes it unplayable and clearly is having a negative effect on the community.

Although several people have posted amazing and excellent viewpoints from both sides, I would encourage everyone to remember that the founders of ANET created Guild Wars and marketed themselves to be a part of a service industry. In this context, the premier emphasis should be on service to the community, which is a group of individuals playing this game. The only way to judge accurately what the community needs is to be one of them, and the best way to become part of a community of players is to play this game yourself. No amount of reading forums and browsing links will give you as much of an understanding to this game as that simple fact of playing.

This was, if I understand correctly, the original intention of the alpha-testing group, to provide feedback based on actual gameplay to determine what was good, bad, or ambivalent in this game and to aid the devs. to strive towards constant improvement of the gameplay experience. Now, the primary input, instead of coming from players, comes from a group of outside viewers who are hired by the company to occassionally visit the game or read the thoughts of users about issues instead of actually learning about those issues firsthand. This is the source of all the fuss about not understanding whats best for the game, and the bit of 'what helps one player could hurt another' because the entirety of the input received by the devs. from the CR department seems to be based off of forum contents instead of an actual understanding of what needs to happen in the game itself.

While I am not disparaging the value of fansites and forums, I do not believe that they are an accurate way to judge what this game needs. It is akin to reading some war novels, viewing some war movies, and then feeling that you are an expert on how war really is. In both cases, things are dramatically obvious when you're actually involved in the situation itself rather than trying to garner information simply from second-hand sources.

I see great input from the posts of both JR and Black, both prominent members of the community who have been on the forefronts of issues in this game for a while. What ANET would benefit from doing is, instead of hiring people to shadow around active gamers and play as the (not so) pretty face of the company, it should keep close relations with members of the community both by hiring people who are either already actively involved in it or are willing to get involved in it and by sampling the userbase in an organized manner. Something as simple as a list like that Black mentioned would suffice. Posting an announcement in the opening status message at the login screen linking to a poll on the top issue of the week would provide droves of information that CANNOT be made apparent just by visiting third-party fansites such as Guru or GWO or TGH. Different segments of the community appear on these sites and quite a few casual gamers have no active involvement in these fansites but deserve to have their voice heard nonetheless. A simple voting system set up directly through the main guild wars website, in which users are identified simply through their guild wars account information would be a realistic means to get information from all aspects of the large community as well as a means of getting everyone on the same page as to what issues we find are currently the highest priority and would provide much more information than daily 6-page reports that people are expect to slog through documenting somebody's misadventures on the network of guildwars fansites available on the internet.

If anything, I hope that ANET will realize how much of an important role that this community actually plays, and while true democratic voting will never truly be able to replace those who can understand the game, in both pve and pvp aspects, it will provide a cheap and effective supplement. In this way, the devs. can weigh the input of those who are actively playing the game and responding to issues of balance, etc as well as the general playerbase whose opinions and continued support are integral to the success of the game and the company behind it. Hopefully lessons from this are being learned and will soon transfer over and actually be integrated into Guild Wars 2. If not, similar problems may again dredge down a great game with huge potential, for after all, a game is nothing without the following of its players.

You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not please all of the people all of the time. (Abraham Lincoln quote with 2 words changed)

There's simple solutions to everything, it's all there. With most of the "elite" fan forums raging and the responses your getting wouldn't it be time to a risk? I'm open to consider both PvE arguements and PvP arguements though I admit to only PvPing. I know that most if not all of PvE can be beat with almost any skillbar aside from DoA and some other tough areas. Ensigns posts are some of the best posts I've read in terms of skill balance in a way that won't affect both sides of the game that bad. In fact if those changes went through, you'd probably please 80% of the PvP crowd while only upsetting maybe 10% of the PvE crowd. If you haven't read his posts and his thorough(spelling?) reasoning I definetly would.

I guess I'm just supporting what everyone else is in arms about. I'm not going to quit as I still have hope for GW but, there's simple solutions to a lot of the mess going around. A PvP CR would be great and if Izzy could post his update notes that would rock.

I think it's about time Anet took some risks in forms of 1 week tests or test weekends just to see how it all goes. I think they're doing that now but...it's over skills, that weren't really used to begin with...aside from the PvE crowd.

Everyone here do me a favor:

Go to Monster.com
Type in "Community Relations"
Click on ANY position available
Compare the job descriptions and requirements to what Andrew and Gaile do

Then you'll see why people complain. It is easy for them to say "guys don't complain because what you are asking us is not part of our job" and for the general majority to agree. However, as an informed and interested consumer of Guild Wars I would at least like CR members to do what they're supposed to.

P.S. no offense to either Andrew or Gaile, I think they're wonderful people, they just happen to massively fail at CR. You could stll fix it in time for GW2

I can't believe the Open Season shoot out I'm seeing on people who are human beings like you and me.

It's times like this I'm ashamed to be called a Guild Wars player.

Shame on all of you using the anonymity of the internet to personally attack people you'll never meet in real life. You wouldn't let people attack YOU for doing your job - do unto others, and all that!

I really hurt for the nasty things and vitriol aimed at the CRT.

Gaile & Andrew

Thanks for posting... it all makes sense! Thanks for being our community relations peeps! Don't let the grumpies get ya down, they're all L.A. Freeway drivers the info we get from you all ROCKS

And I just saw the updates on the skills... woo hoo! new stuff, gotta love it... way more to it than I orignally thought there would be... great new stuff to try and learn, keeps the game interesting. Thanks for making some luxon/kurzick stuff too... that's awesome that you didn't forget about Cantha.

I want that armour in his DP.

Of course since im not allowed to go off topic heres my two cents:

People on the forums will almost always be complaining. Only real happy players that come here go straight to the marketplace or the build section. Riverside will generally be full of haters since they have the most time. The people that actually like the game will be playing it.

Of course I guess the community has gotten more hostile recently. I just guess we are bored and need something new and inspirational. So how about you guys be nice with ncsoft then take advantage and rob em of all they got and hire more developers for Guildwars Two.

No you missed the point completely. We know what youre doing. You all tell us what youre doing. The problem we have is that after you tell us what youre doing, we recieve no update or any information when asked about it. And god forbid that the question be relevant to the PVP community, because we never get an answer to questions we ask. When information is given, it is not up to the players to inform each other of whats going on and how the update or planned features are going, it is ANETS and most importantly YOUR job as CR reps to keep the community informed. The comments of "Were looking into it" and the "we are professionals" when asked abotu said updates or reasoning as to why updates are not ontime or infor about updates are not goign to cut it anymore. You have lost customers. This is a fact. Many erroneous mishappenings caused this. Most of which could have been fixed by better, more well timed information about the state of your game than by just holding off until the last minute before release and saying "SUPRISE!!!"
I think youre misleading ideas here to sugarcoat the sitaution. The simple facts are that when you tell the community that youre looking into something, than after you have looked into it, an answer should be given. If that answer is "no, we cannot do this at this time" than thats the answer that you give. The problem with setting a tenative timeline is that you rarely do. When you say somethign is comming out in the next few weeks, yes there is goign to be speculation. Look at all the Bullshit threads about GW:en and GW2 currently posted on every forum. Even with such little info as they have, people are quick to jump on the first thing that will come to their mind about something new. This is life. If you tell a kid youre going to Disneyworld, the first that that he thinks of is tryign to picture what its goign to be like and all the things he wants to do. Gaming is much the same way, so is a lot of things in life. The problem within this is that you have no accurate total information on whats going on so you really cant make an accurate statement. Which leads to the bigger problem, which is one in which you do set a timeline. If you tell the community that said update will be in place later this week, and next week rolls around, then yes people are going to wonder and question this. Why do you think we do this. Because time and time again this has happened and was never corrected. I have already given several examples of this happening and the same thing continues. The only time there is an enormous outcry for blood and someones head is when something that is told to be given to the community, and that is not fufilled and answered only with "Its comming soon" then yes, how do you expect there not to be an outcry from people who have bought and paid for your game? How logn did it take before the update notes on the game were given reasons as to why somethign was altered or changed? because when someone asked you about it, you had no answer. We are only again asking for the same thing with progress of updates. Say you tell the community that youre looking into making all weapons dropped after a certian date inscribable and that it will be here in the july 8th update (just used a date out of nowhere). Well if it is july 8th and the update is going to be posponed for 2 weeks, fine. Tell us. Say "Hey the up[date has a few minor bugs in it still and will not be ready on time, but should be finished and ready to go in the next week or two. we will keep you posted." DONE!!! end of problem. Had this been going on since the updates started, this whole topic and whole issue of CR would be a moot point outside of one area.
The list would get scrutinized, as well it should. Some things that are being worked on or ideas that the devs are implimenting do not need to be in game nor should they be a priority. When the developers are working on an update or an idea to be implimented into the game when there are still known areas of your game that need revamping or looking into than yes the priorities are wrong and that list should be scrutinized.
This is the one area that i dove into in an earlier citation is that there are areas of the game in which your staff and team have absolutely no idea as to whats going on. The updates are living proof of this. The jade isle was known to be broken for GvG and hexes LONG before this past update where it was fixed. It was discussed, by Isiah Cartwright nonetheless, on weapon of choice, on mIRC, on ventrillo, even on forums about the inability to effectively counter most hex builds on this map. The celestial tournament, a tournament that was based of real life prizes and cash, had several matches that were based around a known and abused game design, and yet nothing was done. This should have been a top priority for your team and the development staff to come up with a solution too as there was money involved, not just some goofy in game items, but real life money before this tournament ever took place as the problems were known to exist then. After the countless times that this was pointed out, over and over again, nothing happened except the usual "Were looking into it" routine that the PVP community always got. The exploitation of the archers, bodygaurd, and knights by balling up at certian chokepoints was another, and can still be taken advantage of and used to this very day. This is not having your priorities set right and focused on what needs to be done in this game. You say that our imput is respected, listened to, used, and implimented when can be, but this clearly is not the case when it comes to the PVP community. The AT's were supposed to help with the smurfing issue on the guildladder and the champ point farming problem that has plagued the guild ladder since you lowered the cap to 1200, yet you then turn around and basically encourage this with the new rules you recently implimented for the AT's. Having your guild registered into a tournament situation should not allow you to have a guest from another team play for you. A football team cannot ask the guy form their rival team to come QB for them so they can beat their rivals, so why should it be allowed? No tournament setting shoudl have ever allowed this, yet with the decline in popularity of the AT's you decide to allow this not even realizing the real reasons as to WHY the AT's are not as productive as you intended them to be. The long wait times, the guilds basically AFK farming the AT's for qualifier points, the lack of reasonable playing times for guilds, all are apart of this, yet inorder to try and fix this situation you go ahead and allow smurfing and champ point farming? JR, Black, Ensign, and several others including myself have all stated that the developers and the CR knowns verry little to almost next to nothing about what the current problems are in the PVP community, and its not just with this example, or hexes, or map mechanics, or killcount, its in general. Your CR staff is so thrilled to go to ID1 Kamadan or Lions Arch and talk with the PVE community and participate in discussions there, yet i can count the number of times on one, yes ONE, hand that someone has came into Heroes Ascent or any other location in the PVP community to participate in said discussions. So since this is the case and is factual, and since youre telling people that if they want somethign to actually be done abotu things to get a job there, are you hiring for a PVP CR rep? Because if so I could think of numerous people who you should ask for a resume from......
As a CR rep I cant honestly believe that you wrote this. This goes against what 80% of a CR rep does. Yes you listen and gather ideas from discussions in the community, you ALSO PARTICIPATE in said discussions, ideas, and conversations. And yet this doesnt happen, thus back to the lack of cummunication. While it does happen on the rare occasion that a major issue is pressing on an area or location, 95% ot 99% of these issues that are addressed are in either Riverside (here), Lions Arch or Kamadahn (ingame), or the updates notes and the Dev Tracker Forum (here). Issues that can be found in other areas of the game that are posted about in other areas are hardly ever commented on or questions brought up concerning other areas of the game are never recieved to with an answer. IT IS YOUR JOB to inform, discuss with, and interract with the community on events happening with and or dealing with your company.
The people who are involved with map desicions, skill descisions, art, programming, etc. shoudl not only be getting hteir information from us alone. They should be given the proper information from whatever source they can. As a CR rep for your company, YOU are one of the most reliable sources of that information as you have a direct interaction with the community and should have a firsthand expierence as to whats going on, which sadly isnt the case here. Any and All information should be shared with your development team, no matter who, what, or where its from. That is the only way that they will truly be able to find out the ways to be able to better their product to their consumers, yet it would appear that the information is not alwasy given or they choose to ignore said information, or that the information isnt as important as it should be. It is our job as the community, Your job as the CR rep, and the forums job to help deliver this information to the developers from all aspects of their game and product. So in a way yes, that is what youre here for. To be thanked when the information we as a community provides reaches the devs and we recieve a response towards our concerns, or to be yelled at when the information is readily available and is knowledge in some instances, yet never gets acted upon or a response met with... Welcome to Community Relations.

-Jason aka Yichi

If I hire you to cut my lawn, and instead you fertilized it, are you doing your job?
If you did come to cut my lawn and only cut half, should I be happy?
We've already covered throughout this thread and from time pased, that either there is a lack of quality CR, or that devs are simply doing what they see fit. Truth be told, we'll never really know, wouldn't be good business practice for anyone to come out of the closet.

Yes, blame the community for YOUR lack of communication. This is a rediculous accusation agianst the community, and entirely untrue. Basically, you say,"They might be disappointed and complain, therefore we keep them in the dark" isnt fair for the people who DONT or WONT complain either way. Just because some, here meaning a very small outspoken percentage of the community, people are going to whine, doesnt mean you keep people in the dark.

So...tell me...what is your job agian? I think I'm confused. It's to listen to us...and here you say "You have no role, we dont care." I dont think that's quite right, and you might want to check your job description


My 2g

Ni.

Problem is, it's easier for most to just agree and hope to keep 'conga lines' than it is for them to find out what a CR is supposed to do. Telling your customers "You aren't saying things I like so I'm just not going to bother with you all anymore!" and "We are professionsal so all the problems are you people!" are some of the worst things to do and far from being an even halfway decent CR let alone a good one. Both PvP and PvE needs decent CR people; Arena Net's CRs making topics like this one shows that more than ever.
No matter how many times it's brought up to many players are willing to overlook the issues the poor CR causes because they are afraid they will lose them permanently rather than getting someone decent who knows how to be a CR. Anyone ever wonder why the overwhelming majority of the community can want something (ie. something other than more Minipets or a decent HardMode rather than thoughtless creature buffs) yet the community gets the exact opposite and the CRs seem to think those are so great dispite it's not being what the majority want?

The whole 1/4th thing is quite amusing as they tell people to go to the forums so they can find out what the players want then say the forums don't have enough people to conclude much of anything? Guild Wars has sold over 3 million copies and there are many many merged accounts so those take the actual number of seperate accounts down considerablely. Then there are those who no longer play taking away more. So given what is on the forums showing what they want, it's a pretty darn good populace to use. Even national surveys only use a couple thousand people out of the many millions that live in the country.

Currently PvPist are mainly blaming PvEist for the shortcommings of PvP and PvEist are blaming PvPist for the short commings of PvE. While the game holds fault for forcing the skills used in both, it's neither PvP's nor PvE's fault. It is the lack of good CR that understands the game well enough and cares more for helping the players than idol worship. It's also the lack of the Devs getting correct information from CRs plus the Devs being stubborn in admitting when they didn't make the best choice. Knowing if they didn't is what makes people stop playing the game for good and makes some stop and start comming to the forums to show they aren't liking it. The two latest examples have been Loot Scaling and Soul Reaping nerf in PvE.

3.5 million individuals? Please, don't try to exaggerate unless ArenaNet suddenly more than trippled their sales in the past few months since as of December 13, 2006 it was annouced "Guild Wars franchise, sales for one of the world's leading subscription-free online roleplaying games have surpassed three million units worldwide " at http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/750/750870p1.html . Or are you trying to say each and every copy of Guild Wars sold is serperated and none where every combined and thusly making every copy unique to an individual and no individual ever bought more than one copy of a chapter nor more than one chapter?
See that would be true but then we have CRs who pick one person and claim them as the whole. A good example was in the Asura MiniPet thread where Gaile picked one person who agreed with her, while a majority did not, and said " I told you guys that you would love the "growly face" he makes! I feel fully vindicated now!! " I know putting a positive spin is required but ignoring the majority and going with the minority just because they agree with you does nothing but show biased information getting back to the devs.

Anywho, Gaile, you think we want to know what you're doing. Wrong. What we want is to talk to someone, nay, anyone, involved with PvP on a continuing basis. I don't want to talk to you - I don't want to ask you questions about Pvp, what's being worked on, why updates haven't come - because I know (as does everyone else on this forum) that you do not specialize in PvP. I want to talk with PvP people involved with the game (even if it's just Izzy). We want to talk to developers about why they can't do stuff, or why it's taking so long. Not just a "it was delayed" robot response.

We want PvP communication, not more from Gaile and Andrew. Please note, this is not an insult to Gaile or Andrew, because it is obvious they aren't knowledgeable in the areas of PvP.

I would probably start playing again if we were able to have a chat with someone involved in the PvP side of the game, who could let us know what's going on, why we can't do certain things, etc etc. What would it hurt, besides making the community happier?

Ok, talking in a rational manner, this has already been answered:

They can either spend all their time responding to discussion, or they can spend their timing refining and designing. Which will it be?

Um..isn't it Gaile's job to tell us such things?

That is a rediculous statement. Having someone in CR representing the PvP side of things doesnt mean they are spending "all their time". If you have just a single person like Gaile or Andrew who deals with PvP, things wouldnt be as bad.

Well, I don't know too much about this subject to be frank. But clearly those speaking on Gaile and Andrew's gaming time don't know them. I'm in the alliance with Andrew and he is primarily a PvP player. He does PvE, too but his joy, as far as I know, is PvP.

And just so I can get it out there... We shouldn't blame the liaisons. *They* didn't design the game. I can't imagine playing "go-between" between angry GW-ers and stressed designers (I mean... don't *you* get stressed at work?) is all it's cracked up to be. The community team's work is appreciated by me and mine, I know.

basically, what I've gleaned from her posts is that her job description includes a hodgepodge of things in addition to being the poster-girl for this game. Since she decided to accept her position as poster-girl for this game, she is in prime position to take the flak when people are dissatisfied with the game, as each job has both its ups and downs. Gaile, if you are unable to adequately deal with the community and accept that since you are the public face of ANET, you deserve and need to accept all the shit that is thrown at you about all the resentment people harbor against the problems in this game, you need to resign from your position, realize it isn't the job for you and find something else to do.

I would like to know if Andrew Patrick has ever been on a top guild's vent?
Has he played with these guilds that have been around from the start?
Does he play with those who are just starting out?
Does he know who in the community is really knowledgeable about this game?
Does he know the basics to forming a build for gvg?
Does he know how gvg works?
Does he know that pvp isnt limited to RA and TA and that every single pvp arena is different from one another?
Does he even UNDERSTAND why soul reaping needed a fix?
Was Andrew present during Jade map testing?
Was he present during test AT's?
Does he gvg, HA, TA, and RA daily?
Has he done all this from the start?
Does he know what the metagame is without having to read about it?

The CR I want for pvp should know those basics. If you dont play this game like the more dedicated pvp-ers in this community then how do you expect to gain some credibility?

Now if the answer is yes to all those than kudos, show it more though, cos I've been around the pvp world for a long time and during Celestial Tourneys i never saw him be vocal, I never heard big teams talk about Andrew. In fact I didn't even know who he was and I have played this game for 2 years.

I realize that Andrew and Gaile are not designers or devs, but at least know your product if youre gonna speak on its behalf. I think Gaile is wonderful for pve, heck i used to pve at one point too and would be present at her LA visits. But neither gaile nor andrew have ever been involved in the pvp community. The fact that they listen to guru so much which is predominantly pve shows that.

I wonder if they can even name top players without going into obs mode.

COMMUNITY RELATIONS = RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR COMMUNITY

If you are a pvp CR then you should have a relationship with the pvp community, thats from top guilds to the very newest. That way you would understand NEEDS and could actually present those 4-6 page weekly reports with some credibility.

not rocket science...

Those of you who are arguing there should be a CR very tuned into the needs of the most serious PvPers -- how many individual PvPers, total, are you talking about here?

Just like Gaile talks to every PvEr out there, PvPers should have a guy who comes to HA and talks to us. I mean, that's the very, VERY least that should happen. But that doesn't even scratch the surface of fixing this game. We just need a lot more communication in general with people who actually know PvP.

And Francis, we don't want them "tuned" to our needs, we want them to fix the bloody game. Because at the moment, there is hardly a PvP game at all.

There are so many games where the dev / design team are in an ivory tower and the PR can do NOTHING but put out fires.

Andrew, Gaile, and other's play the game, they make "suggestions" from the players, the report back to us when they can, they CAN'T always say what they know. They do a great job.

GW has been in "flux" with changes from day 1 and has never been static. They have an incredible difficult job.

Reasons why they can't say everything (theoretical situation):
hmm we want to try say an auction house, PR reports info, people go nuts... 6 month dev team finds out the amount of changes resources to alter the game is just to much, it gets scraped for now... people form lynch mobs.

The fact is the game NEVER had the feature and until they opened there mouth ppl "perception" of the game was better but due to nothing but "talk" that ended up becoming worse.

How many times do you see workers at a place that servers food go to another place that serves food to eat lunch, do you want complete openness from company (hint it never happens anywhere) about which shipment of ingredients barely passes edible. We for get real humans make a company, if your one of the employed, all the politics, and stupid stuff that can happen at work happens everywhere, but when we think of another company all we think of is "image".

The culture of Guru has changed over time as well, ppl are much quicker to shout and bicker vs constructive criticism.

There is nothing wrong with hey, I don't like change X, here are some of the reason's why. And when ppl disagree with you, counter there argument. 2 parties screaming and shouting gets ignored.. unless you join the screaming and shouting. I do understand why, when you love something, your passionate about it. Just think if you apply these fits to real life. Whine about how unfair is something to your boss, and when he says "no" keep pushing it.

If you read all the info about GW2, it looks like Anet is trying to address the issues that starting to become a problem or people been vocal about. PvP vs Pve, distribution of players across three games making ghost towns, the increased complications of skill changes due to the integrated pvp / pve system.

If you find you don't like GW anymore, take a break or move on. It's a game. Since it's always in flux, in 6 months, see what the changes are, you may like it again or not.

I just want to hop into this loveless thread of raging fire and express my sincere love and appreciation of what Arenanet is doing.



Big hugs to Gaile and Andrew. Because without them, Guild Wars would've been just another faceless entity, changing at will, without humanity.

Most changes I love, some changes I don't, but in the end at least I know there is someone I can communicate with.

Keep up the good work.

Alderin, I completely agree with you and was completely shocked when Andrew said they were catering to 3.5 million people. Lets say for instance that there are now 3.5 million units sold. I would say, that there are MAXIMUM 2 million people who have accounts, probably a lot less, considering the people who have 2 or (like most of us here) 3 chapters. Also, I myself know a LARGE amount of people who no longer play. Considering that they've sold MAYBE 3.5 million units over the past 2+ years, I'd say that there have to be best case a million, million and a half active users. I wouldn't even be surprised if there were less than a million. Half of my guild hasn't been online in a month, hardly anyone on my friends list is on anymore, and I highly doubt I'm the only one to experience this. Even best case 1.5 million, while impressive, just makes it a huge lie to say that they're catering to 3.5 million individuals

There are just way too many people apologizing for Gaile and Andrew so much that they miss the point altogether.

Listen, I don't hate either one of the people, but the fact remains that there is NO PVP REPRESENTATIVE FOR THE PVP COMMUNITY. NONE. There is nobody who talks to the community on a regular basis that has a strong grasp of PvP and what needs to be fixed. That is a big problem, and a large reason why so many have quit, and many others are frustrated.

And I am tired of Anet or CR not admitting to any fault or problem whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned there has been a ton of fault and problems proven throughout this thread.

I understand your point, but that's just it. Gaile posted earlier that devs and other designers read the forums themselves also, so they arent the only ones looking at these problems. Meaning Gaile and Andrew's job is also done by everyone else in Anet apparently.

There are degrees for this sort of position, people go to university to study PR, Advertising and Mass Communications. It IS a tough job, a very tough one, its not just putting out fires. People dedicate four years for a degree, maybe more. It isn't just reading forums and pointing out the obvious.

No offense intended, but again, go to Monster.com and see what a "CR" position actually entitles.

For those of you who keep saying we are just flaming Gaile and Andrew, we aren't. They are lovely people, but we aren't posting just to be haters or rude. We are posting because there is something seriously wrong with the way CR is run in GW PvP, it has cost them hundreds of players and it keeps spiraling downwards.

Don't miss the point please, I for one am in no way trying to insult these lovely people, I am just severely disappointed that I have invested time and money into this game and all I get are CRs that are complaining because gamers are acting like gamers. PvP has never been represented, and two years later it still gets ignored.

How much revenue do you think Anet has received from those hundreds of now-disappointed PvPers?

I think the reason why there are so many sympathy posts (including mine) is because the other posts seems to come off as:

"I'm a PvPer and I represent the majority. Because my demands were not met, you CRs fail at your jobs..."

Which seems harsh because they're not blaming anyone, but merely indicating that such frictions cannot be avoided. We all dream of that perfect game where players and developers live in harmony...

...but here we are, dreamers clustered into a group of angry mobs for a dream unfullfilled, deluded into believing each one of us represent the majority... all the while we forget that there's a place out there called Asia, whose player base might outnumber us 3 to 1 (this statistic, like most statistics, are pulled right out of my you-know-what, but it's a theory).

On the other hand, we may or may not be important in the grand scheme of player communities in Guild Wars, but their job is to make us feel like we are. Certainly if we don't feel this way, then it's our job to speak up and communicate this with them... but so far many of us have only managed to squabble, complain, and sling mud at their faces. One or two of these comments may contain important and helpful suggestions, but when you covered them in piles of dung, its hard to find it.

Personally, I believe there are two kinds of people in this world:
People who demand more and appreciate less,
and People who demand less and appreciate more.

I think that Diablo is the most worthy person in this thread.

A lot of thanks to both Gayly and Andrew.

You are doing a really good work, and a lot of people appreciate it. Just forgive us if sometimes we get rough.

To me, the removal of the informative (to me anyway), intelligent and constructive posts from top GvG players in this thread speaks volumes about how customers are treated. They didn't make me think any worse of the company, if that's what you were worried about

Ill Back this and the others that have said similar things. Anet youve made an amazing game and uve continually expanded and upgraded it for free. Thats alot more than most companys do for their games.

So heres a big thanks from a fan who thinks Gw happens to be one of the best games ive ever played but if u happen to nerf my build im gonna........ hehe just kidding Im looking forwards to EotN and Gw2 and all the new features they bring.

Thanks again everyone at Anet and keep up the great work. Lots of Love, Soph