Some Info about Community Relations

I'm not even gonna pretend that I like all of the updates, some of them just don't make any sense, or make me wonder why would they even bother doing it. But I still enjoy playing it and play it for what it is, a very fun and fine game.

Anet aren't perfect, but hey, the kids are alright in my book.

It becomes a serious issue when the CT members start having to address forum posts to try and stop the disrespect and offensive behaviour being addressed to themselves by the community of the very game that the forum was created for.

I'd like to thank Anet for all the time Ive spent enjoying Guild Wars, and like to curse you for all the time Ive spent on Guild Wars . Working in customer relations for a worldwide company myself I know how it can feel sometimes that you're being used as a punching bag and on the worse days the sh*t can get you down.

I'd like to thank the dev team for the continuing hard work they bring to GW (especially with GW:EN & GW² being built and designed). I think that they (and you the CT members) need to stop being brought down by people who believe that they know the game better than the people who built it. I also believe that the community needs to stop being so incredibly negative and impolite.

(little ps - Can PvP and PvE in GW2 be seperate entities plz? Different kind of people play these 2 different modes of gameplay (unless please make PvE full of teams of 8 mobs who have randomised skillbars and all the missions consist of capture the flag, that way PvP balances dont peeve off PvE'ers because essentially it would be the same game being balanced - oki my own little rant over)

Do you mean it's a serious issue that we have to complain vociferously on the forums to get any sort of response out of ANet, and even then, it's a huge long QQ thread which manages to take up a lot of space to say nothing very meaningful?

I think its a shame that real issues were brought up to the CR team on issues at hand within the community, but they get removed. It makes it really hard to have an open dialogue with the CR when people make important posts on how things can be improved when it comes to player input on how the game is shaped and they get randomly removed. I do know I've found out more about upcoming things from various designers I occasionally talk to instead of the entire CR team, and that's a real shame.

The entire issue is compounded by the fact that with the removal of all but a very, very small number of beta testers, all beta is done by the entire player base. This makes it EVEN more important for CR to have a dialogue with the players and report things to and from the devs in order for players to know what might be upcoming, what changes need to be made, and what direction the game might be heading in.

Which means, basically, that the devs do, in fact, need to work in a glass house, because transparency between the community and the devs is the only way that there's any possible way of improving the game and making it more enjoyable to play. If there's an issue that needs to be resolved, I think it is important to not discredit and dismiss them as a vocal minority because too often, that minority is right.

No its not a serious issue that people complain, people by nature are eternally unsatisfied and complaining express their dissatisfaction, which as customers, you have a right to express your dissatisfaction.

However if you go back to the original post and let your blood pressure down enough for your eyes to read whats being said the OP is expressing a great deal of concern about the offensive and simply unacceptable manner in which the complaints are being addressed personnally to the CT members as if they are at fault. Whilst the CT members are the conduit for the community to Anet and it is their duty/job to pass the info and sentiments of the community (the guy does an 8 page synapsis of the forum boards for the dev team each week) it certainly doesnt give the community any right to start being offensive and downright insulting to the CT members.
Perhaps you've had experiences that make you feel entitled to get hotheaded and righteous about your opinions. I dont know that, however it remains common good sense to stay polite and respectful of other people out there in cyberspace. Perhaps I was brought up the wrong way and cant see your way of thinking.
Oh and by the way this is no way an attack directed at Mr/Mrs Spawnofebil, but I think that a lot of people have lost the track of what this thread started out to express.

Actually I think the OP made a pretty good argument on that point, in that 100% of posters constitute 25% of the game's 'population', so at least 75% have not agreed because they're absent from the discussion (for whatever reason).

I wonder if there's any potential in adding a polling feature to the log-in screen. Ask people to vote just before they pick their character and get a broader community opinion on things.

Andrew & Gaile Grey,

People just feel like they arent being listened to because theres no direct response to what seems like months and months of problems that seems very obvious.

This applies to both PvE and PvP.

We dont know if:

1) The Devs even know the problem.
2) The Devs know the problem but havent come with a solution.
3) The Devs have a more pressing issue to deal with, and that problem is being put on the backburner.
4) The Devs have solved the problem but have not implemented the change on the live server.
5) The Devs, after examining the problem have found other problems tied to it.

Please read this. I posted it on the Offtopic, its really funny. BUT ITS REALLY REALLY TRUE. I will bolden what Anet needs to take to heart.

PvP and community relations are nonexistent. I have no sympathy for the CR team since the PvP has always been put on the back burner. If we finally do gfet some feedback we are promised one thing (which doesn't happen) then ignored for months.

On a side note: I was playing wow the other day and had a small issue. For those of you who don't play this amazing game, you can open a ticket up while playing and request to speak with a GM. Well this was my first time doing this and I thought perhaps I would get a response in a day or two since I was used to that kind of service from a game I used to play. Less than a minute later a GM whispers me and took care of my problem right away. I was extremely impressed and thought why did I waste two years on GW?

I dont post because I'm happy or because I'm unhappy. I post because I'm stealing time at work from the man!

xD

Since these seem to be different people, and since Guild wars is a service, why not accomodate both groups of people with some sort of service? The message boards indicated a demand for both, your data indicates that these are different people, so why not work something to keep everybody happy? otherwise, some customers will feel underserviced.

No but if you can identify a significant community who all want a certain service, then you ought to provide that service to them. You stated above that the 8v8 people were different people than the 6v6 people, so you ought to have tried to figured out how to make both groups happy.

Then there's stuff like the soul reaping nerf, where the entire profession was botched in an unsatisfactory way (to everybody), because pvp players dont like to play against anti-warrior hexes on isle of jade. Pvp wanted the profession removed, along with assassin, dervish, paragon, and ritualist, but there are people with 2000+ hours of playtime on a character who dont take kindly to that suggestion. Honestly, with all due respect to pvp and coming from a pvper, anet ought to weigh the balance in favor of the thousands of hours players... because they identify with a character not "roll" a character and when that character is dramatacally altared, they will just leave the game...

there are always hundreds of ways to fix pvp.

The community suggestion, demanded at first by pvp, keep soul reaping but not from spirits you dont control... ought to have been tested.


The section of the community that is rude and demanding on message boards is also rude in game. Its not just experienced by the reps. Some of the recent failures in game types are more the fault of the community than anet. In fact the types of gameplay with the rudest communities are failing the hardest. I think that the community ought to be nicer too.

Fosters Law
The only people who find what they are looking for in life are the fault finders.

7v7?

The consequences of changes that the forums' PvP players want are hard to gauge simply because they don't represent the whole GW PvP community.
A polling feature could be helpful to solve this.

Damn straight.

Yes keep up the good work while pleasing an catering to the PvE community and ignoring the PvP side. If an employee of mine only did half his job he wouldn't last long.

Wow.

Andrew,
Being in customer relations for a long time, I can sympathize with your duties. But to unload in this Jerry McGuire type format is really just a shame.
I understand that it can be difficult to read thru all the hoop-la, but, it is your job afterall. Few people in life get to dictate how they get to perform their jobs, and sadly, you are not one of them. Don't feel bad, I can't dictate it either.
Ask yourself this question: How would you feel if the garbage man stopped you while you were leaving for work and told you that they didn't like the way you were depositing your garbage? What if they asked you to be more thoughtful in how you handle it? What would be your initial response?
Most folks I know might be sympathetic, but then they'd probably tell the garbage man to 'suck it up'. It is their job afterall. See, the garbage man doesn't get to tell us how to handle our garbage.

The only cardinal rule in customer service is this:
It is better for customers to complain, then to walk away and never return.

If they are complaining, you're getting free, FREE advice on how to improve your game. Right? It might not come across as good advice, but, advice it is nonetheless.
Granted, it may just be nonsense, but to the complainer, it makes perfect sense. Afterall- wasn't this game partly founded on the premise of what the other guys did wrong?

I'm sorry if this does not sit well with you. I truly do understand how trying difficult customers can be.

-ANoid

That's to say that all PvE players have been satisfied, and that all PvP players have been left out. Yet there are PvP players that HAVE been satisfied with the changes, and PvE players that are irked by the nerf bat. The implemented changes are not deliberately targeted at certain group of players. It just seems like we are the majority when all we do is hang out with people that are all dissatisfied.
---

My criticism for the CR's is this:
The failing of customer satisfaction is in the illusion that it's operating democratically, that every Joe Schmoe whose thought of some wacky idea for guild wars can get their desires fullfilled. However democracy does not work on a large scale, instead there's Representative Democracy, in which groups of people with different interests are represented by someone who presents their common interest to achieve their goals. That's what we needed, elected individuals representing PvPers, HA/RA, PvErs etc. who can communicate with Gaile and Andrew on a closer basis (and if we're dissatisfied we can overthrow him... ). Of course this may be more complex than it seems... but certainly it would resolve alot of anger issues some people are experiencing.



note: I've heard that we've had something close to it at some point... but if that's the case, then I have no idea what happened to it.

So true Anoid. I tried for many months to voice my opinion and eventually I gave in knowing it was falling on deaf ears. I left as well are my guildies did and we are playing something else now. That would not have been the case had our questions and concerns been answered even the slightest bit.

My guildies are friends that have been playing games together with for many years and we keep picking up/meeting people along the way. We all feel the same way how the PvP in GW was handled (nothing at all) and when we are chatting on vent and new people ask about GW but I just say "don't even bother trying it".

One of my friends still plays GW, yes one of them and he asked on vent if any of us are returning when Eye of the North comes out. He got a definite NO from all of us. They have to go all the way back and try to pick up new customers because they lost many PvP players/customers. I still don't know how people can stand playing GW PvE it is extremely bland but all to their own I guess.

It's to bad a game with such great potential had to be destroyed because Anet's lack of management and PR.

o_O

Are you proposing some sort of Guild Wars community Senate/Council/Representatives?!

BY GOD! BRILLIANT!

*brain starts churning*

This is the bottom line that I am getting from Anet and the CR team and a lot of the PvErs in here"

APPARENTLY because PvE has a greater majority than PvP, Anet has the right to ignore PvP....umm NO.

This game has two sides. Gaile and Andrew are WONDERFUL at PvE. Kudos to them....just not in PvP.

Is it such a BIG request to ask for proper PvP representation?

Community Relations = Relationship with your Community
PvP Community Relations = Relationship with the PvP Community

Just a few things, I'm mainly PvE and I agree with you that PvP needs a good CR as well. Though for PvE, talking about MiniPets and popping ingame for idol worship and threatening to leave forums and the rest of Gaile's and Andrews posts in this thread show they are not "WONDERFUL at PvE" either and PvE needs a good CR as well. Both sides are in the same boat really in that regard but it's just that PvP is more appearant given the way PvP has been handled for so long and the fact Gaile appears in the PvE side of the game and goes on and on about MiniPets and food.

Any real CR can look at Gaile's and Andrews behaviour in just this thread alone and find the majority of the things a decent CR should never do if they wish to keep their job and be good at it.

I'm not trying to flame Gaile or Andrew but it is more than appearant that CR just doesn't suite them given they want the possitive side of the job with none of the negetive. Every job has a downside you must deal with and if you can't handle the downside then it's time to look for a new job. Oh, and I'm speaking as a CR myself and what Gaile and Andrew deal with is nothing compared to what most CRs deal with.

This is, to me, what it really comes down to.

Sure, the devs are great at creating the game, but not so great at creating it in an effective way, or even in a good way. The will of the community to help shape the game in a successful manner has largely been ignored, and the Dev's have essentially wandered around without keeping a solid focus on what they even want out of the game.

I really don't have anything to add, and after seeing the dev 'response' to alot of posts, I'm not sure I want to anyway.

I think everybody is forgetting that Blizzard has a lot more staff than Anet. Now i'm one who believes that WoW is a better game in every aspect except maybe graphics. The reason for this is not because of quality its because of quantity. Blizzard has a bigger budget. Blizzard has more staff. Blizzard is bigger than Anet.

I feel with the success of GW Anet should have moved forward. Take it things to the next level. However imo they have remained stagnant. Thus i feel the only way for Anet to produce the goods is to become bigger.

The reason for buffs for skills that no one uses is probably an attempt to try and get them some play time.

Diablo I like your Idea of Representative Democracy, kudos to you!

for an example of a bad dev team, hook up with swg. one of the few things that i liked from them was that there were volunteer positions in the community held by players who had access to a locked forum where they brought the concerns from each of their respective profession forums.

still, for some reason ranger always sucked in that game.

regardless. sony has official forums and were able to organize it...

nm, i think i'm going to post this idea in the sanitarium forums.

Andrew thank you for comming out and talking to us. You and Gaile are great and I can't agree with your post here more. I find it rediculous that people can say what they say in this , and other, forums about thepeople who work with you and for ANet. I love the product you guys put out as guild wars is one of the best games I have ever play, and one of the only games I have stuck around after completeing.

I know i have had complaints but I have always tried to keep them in the contex of complaints not personal attacks. I hated the Soul reaping nerf and tried to offer suggestions for changing it and I know you guys listened but came up with a different, and I think perfectly good, alternative. I have rarely been let down by updates released by your team and I understand how trying a customer/community service job can be.

Just know that the majority of people out here appritiate the hard work you, Gaile and the developers put into this game and into the future GW2. I personally hope that you keep talking to this community and people learn that the "targets" of their hateful posts are people even if you can't hear their voice or see their face, and that you deserve respect.

Thank you again and cudos for posting a thread that needed to be posted!!!

Eh? And how are you proposing they get bigger? By charging you a monthly access fee?

The OP's post is a reflection of how the CRs are really feeling. Probably really stressed out. But as mentioned, it's not going to change anything. People who are sympathetic will remain sympathetic. And the people who normally demand things will still continue to demand things in a way they are always demanding them. This is just a stressed out I-almost-can't-take-it-anymoe post, so I do feel sympathetic. But since it was already acknowledged that it is usually upset people who post, then obviously, rudeness and demands from upset people are to be expected.

The bottom line is that there has been no PvP representation. The moans in this thread reflect that. I was under the impression that CR views all aspects of the game but that is not the case.

Anet chose to release a game which had PvP and PvE and I as a paying customer felt neglected as a PvP player as did many others. Regardless of where the majority of income is coming from be it PvE they still should of had some involvement into PvP communication.

The whole game revolves around skill balancing and that is judged upon PvP. Many man hours were wasted upon hero battles and comedic ladder. I think Anet needs a revamp of management and I bet it will happen for the sake of the company. Problem is a lot of customers have already left and lost faith.

I think that it may be useful to start a thread or poll requesting the PvP community exactly what do they expect from CR and Anet. As this thread has been hijacked several times by the PvP community saying that they do not have representation in the Community by the CR members, perhaps in a constructive manner this could be addressed by a poll. Rather than a undirected tantrum asking for heads to roll and ragequitting and saying 'we've lost faith with Anet.'

(sorry for grammer Im supposed to be working and dont have time to properly construct the sentences - but essentially Im trying to suggest a new thread for PvP'ers to ask Anet for representation as evidently they feel a little bit left out in the cold)

It won't matter for the CR have posted only a small handful of times in the PvP forums. We get fed bullshit and then unheard of for months. It's way to late for any changes to be made. Damage is done. Riverside seems to be the only place to get any acknowledgement from the CR.

go figure...

Well, what can I say? I'm a PvE player. I choose however, not to be ignorant of PvP. The lack of a PvP CM is a fair point, and my opinion on RitSpike is that it needs to go, now. But is this really the place for it? Anyway, I've been playing for 2 years now and have over 30 characters across 3 accounts. I don't like everything Anet has ever done over these 2 years, but it is plainly obvious to see that the good outweighs the bad, no matter how late it may come. Can you imagine GW without reconnects now? Certainly a case of better late than never.

What I really want to say is this: Gaile, Andrew, Isiah and the rest of the GW team are just as human as the rest of us. Not one of them is a god and none of them can give us a perfect game overnight. They'll make mistakes, get up and try again and thats what makes them so good. They don't deserve to be demonised simply because issues of game balance cannot be fixed overnight.

The concept that there is no balance in PvE also needs debunking once and for all. If there were no balance in PvE, then why nerf several PvE only skills? Why return Spiteful Spirit to 15 energy on the grounds of it being the most powerful skill in PvE? If there is supposed to be no balance in PvE then why is PvE subject to exactly the same rules as PvP? And 'Anet r lazyz' is not a decent answer.

Getting back to the original issue brought up by Andrew of people expecting to be able to demand things from Anet. I agree, this has to stop, as all it serves for is to sour already strained community relations. I'll admit, I may have been guilty of this on one occasion, but if people could see their mistakes coming, they wouldn't make them in the 1st place... But my personal mistakes aside, credit where it's due, it must take some guts to take an issue like this head on. The single worst thing about this game is the attitude prevalent in a lot of the community, that is to say, the demanders, the anti PvX crowds and anyone posting in an entirely selfish manner, (ie; thinking only of themselves and how they enjoy the game. Yes, it's important, but so is the satisfaction of millions of people besides yourselves.)

Above all, you guys deserve medals for your patience. I know my praise won't fall on deaf ears, because I know you care about this game, I've been in and around it for long enough now to know that much and because, frankly, I care about it too. So to reiterate what the silent majority never have the opportunity to say: Thanks. A thanks for every second I've spent in game. You know, that's about nine million thank-yous, just from me... But seriously, thanks a lot. I wouldn't have all the friends I do today if it weren't for this game.

Uh... duh? Food for thought; every single CR in the world is human. Every single CR makes mistakes. However, if you've got an entire community of people complaining (the PvPers) you aren't making mistakes, you're screwing up epically.

I'm not sure how much of it is Andrew and Gaile, and how much is ANet; but either way, it's a problem that needs fixing. Two PvE reps and no PvP reps just isn't acceptable if you're advertising that Guild Wars has PvP; hire a PvP rep... at the minimum. If cost is an issue, split it 50/50; a PvP rep and a PvE rep.

As it stands, the lack of community discussion and information relays between ANet and the community is... frustrating? Nah... it's infuriating. Imagine a world where Andrew and Gaile were both PvP reps and never listened or gave solid answers about PvE; "Uh... you want harder areas? Take your armor off or something, that'll make it harder." "Are we working on auction house? Uh... let's talk about GvG instead..." I'd bet many *more* people would be flaming pissed and complaining if that were the case.

In conclusion... the problem is obvious. The solution is equally obvious. Why isn't the issue being rectified?

You missed the point. These things take time. Hiring a PvP rep will also take time, if indeed, that is the solution. But expecting these things to happen immediately is exactly what Andrew is speaking out against. Ultimately, it's in NCsoft's hands, not ArenaNet nor Andrew and Gaile's. But I wonder, with everyone screaming for a PvP rep, what exactly are they supposed to know that Gaile or Andrew don't?

Is it really in NCsofts hands? That brings up an interesting point. If Anet wants to be a good company they should have thought of this problem ages ago. Didn't they know "building the game from the ground up as a competitive game" was going to bring problems if there was nobody to even talk to the competitive players?

As for Gaile and Andrew, I said earlier that I don't mind them. But we need somebody who has knowledge of ladder PvP to see the balance problems and other issues facing the gametype. That is something we do not have... I am a bit surprised that we don't have this already, because PvP has been in clear decline for a year now at least. I believe you can't just get anybody to come in and say "oh we know whats wrong"...we need people who have experience in what is wrong and be able to advocate for us with the devs if the gametype is going to be any good.

No see you missed the point. PvP has been ignored from the get go. Perhaps you have tried RA but I can tell you have not played any high end PvP. It is Anet's obligation to have PvP representation if they are going to have a PvE rep. Andrew and Gaile don't know squat when it comes to PvP because they chose not to play it, their loss as well as ours.

We don't expect things to happen immediately but months upon a year of neglect is uncalled for. What gets me is how they boast that GW is has fantastic PvP and even have huge tournaments yet they have no representation. crazy...

There are other ways such as coming up with more expansions like GW:EN for example. Anet also opened the online store where u can buy character slots and other stuff as well if i'm not mistaken. So use the money from there to grow. i mean if u're lacking in one area that is holding you back shouldn't u find some way to improve that area and make it ur strength instead of just saying "sigh... we're just a small company we'll never be able to compete with the big guns. lets just stay the way we are until we are bought out".

That is what you are getting paid to do. Make the game perfect for 3.5million people.

Make it happen.

Bread fan, this is a little late, but tell me, are you psychic? Because if you're not then I don't see how you can tell what kinds of play I've engaged in and observed. You provide no evidence and make accusations based on paperweight facts. I said I'm primarily a PvE player and you took that to mean that I'm exactly the same as the other 2 million PvE players who in the opinion of a lot of the PvP crowd are automatically smack talking idiots. Sorry, but you can play both, you know. That aside, the lack of PvP representation is not what this thread's supposed to be about. I'm not denying that it's a problem, I'm simply saying that this isn't what this thread is for, because if this becomes a thread simply demanding representation for PvP, then none of you have acknowledged or respected the original post. If you want a better deal for PvP, there are far better ways than trying to hijack a thread, especially one warning against making demands of Anet.

And nobody's actually answered my question either, it's just been skipped around. Ok, so Gaile and Andrew are lacking in PvP knowledge according to 99% of the PvP community. Examples? Aside from isolated examples of AoE definition and whatnot, where is the hard proof? Exactly. Neither you nor I actually know exactly how they play the game, so lets not make assumptions based purely on one or two verbal blunders from a year ago.

Not to mention that making a claim like '99% of the PvP community thinks Gaile and Andrew are ____'. It's impossible to say that 99% of anything thinks ___ right now, because there is no formal way of polling the entire GW population. It would be more accurate (but still wrong) to say that 99% of the PvP on Guru thinks Gaile and Andrew are ____'. Unfortunately, when compared against the total population in Guild Wars, that number of people is just a drop in the bucket because most people do NOT login to forums and post. If they have a complaint, they tend to just accept it and move on, if they really like something, they might mention it to a friend or two but again, very rarely announce it the world.

Just remember, that 87.6% of all statistics are made up.

Gaile Grey (bless her) once PvP'ed around Factions. She played a R/Mo healer who thought she had poisoned her own team.

This sort of thing doesn't exactly fill people with confidence.

We're playing that game huh? Well okay then. Lets look up the guild rank of ZoS, the guild that Andrew is the leader of. Oh wait...that's right. They aren't on the ladder. That's odd. For someone who apparently GvG's for 4 days of the week, you'd think he'd have a top 1000 guild. I mean, currently all you need to get into the top 1000 is 7-8 wins. If you add a few losses, you could get there with maybe 12 wins and 3 losses.

Oh well. I guess that counts Andrew out. What about Gaile? Well, she hasn't mentioned guilds...and being that most PvP requires (or at least would be desired) being in a guild, then I guess she mustn't PvP much either.

What's that? Your argument is nullified? For someone so confident, you sure don't know much.

Guilds with Anet members playing on the ladder? Can you say manipulation and unfair advantage?

Read this page:

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...ibleguilds.php

ZoS' position on the ladder is irrelevant to Andrew's own PvP experience.
Spearmen are barely in the top 1000, would you say they are a sucky in PvP as well?

I have personally PvP'ed with Andrew but I can't personally vouch for his combat prowess (he's a monk afterall, i wasnt paying attention to who was healing me), we didnt lose however. He did have some losing players banned after they shouted very very obscene things in local chat after they lost. Now that was funny.

While I do know for a fact that she doesnt PvP much, and i think we all know that, deducting from that "evidence" that its because she doesnt mention guilds much is a lack of logic beyond that makes me sigh.

Gaile poisoning her own teammates stems from back in the day when you could target your own teammates and Gaile used a poison arrow build (IIRC the story).

why not give players the link to the threads where are debated skill changes on the login screen? then you would not only have angry people posting.