Pre-searing "Black Market". Fair Access for all players.

ebay. plain and simple.

/signed - again, why have something like runes and such drop if you can't Salvage them to use now? It's like, here's your present, but you can't open it unless you move to (some other country) and never return again.

O.o ?

Either your telling ppl to buy salvage kits off ebay or money to buy salvages, in either case I beleave thats a banning offence from most forums and the game. You mind explaining this? Plane and simple like?

Thanks for your opinion.

You may be the exception to those that object, that have direct concern and connection to pre-searing. Read back on this thread, and on it's sister thread on the other fan forum. You'll see reasons for the basis of my comments (especially on the GW incgamers thread).

Now, please keep the thread polite and productive. Give us some insight! Why, as a pre-searing-playing customer do you not think this is a good idea? A good disscussion needs both sides of the argument.

Thanks again.

Thom, read the other posts. People can afford to buy these items because they buy gold from ebay.

The way you interpreted it is completely moronic.

I "believe" that the people who do it are actually paying with their post money to other post characters for the goods and services obtained by their pre characters from other pre characters.

/signed

If it makes it fun again in pre without the unbalanced aspect from those that took advantage of a bug.

I think that is a little off imo. No one has said to add golds or greens, you did that yourself.

We only want expert salvage kits to make us able to salvage the already dropped runes you get from the charr.

This will not ruin the game, it will only help those who like pre have the runes they often get salvaged for the cost of a kit instead of the exhorbourant amount of money the black marketeers charge.

no one needs golds or greens dropped & oh btw for the record, they charr drop a green charr bag.

But I'm sure you don't need this now do you as you don't like the idea of greens dropping in pre >.>

i also sign... i like pre and i felt frustrated when i used a normal salvage kit trying to salvage a minor rune

That's correct, I did say that myself, if you actually read my post and understand it you will see that the point is why stop there becasue if you add runes someone will soon complain that since there are golds in pre then A-Net should introduce gold drops in pre.

Again, try reading AND understanding my post. I said green WEAPONS, I am well aware of Charr bags, incase you didn't know Charr bags are not weapons. And you are correct, nobody needs gold and green weapons, just as nobody needs runes, thanks for supporting my point.



I did, if you read the rest of my post, the part you did not quote, you will see why I think what I think. Simply put, if it aint broke don't fix it, and just because a few runes exist in pre hardly counts as pre being broke. There is no imbalance.....it PvE. You have every right to want things your way, but in my oppinion, if you want runes move on to post and you can have all the runes you like.

/signed

An expert salvage kit in Pre will only make it a bit more fun to play/stay in pre. And if that gets someone to buy another character slot or the GotY upgrade then that's more $$ for ANet.

If you had used the word wrong instead of moronic it would have left an impression that the poster made a mistake. Instead you used a word that turns your statement into an attack on the poster and that wasn't very nice.

There are a couple of ways to get gold in Pre (a few legitimate)
1) Farm dye. I haven't spent much time there since the loot scaling but it previously was a great place to farm dye.
2) Farm the Charr for weapons and Charr bags
3) Buy "unwanted" dye for 50g (I seriously don't like these kind of scams).

I have read every single post on all 4 threads on this subject, I'm sorry you coment seemed out of place to me, because I read the other post then read posts in other threads and came back here, if you had quoted the post you were answering, there would have been no misunderstanding lol.

How do others having these items make Pre searing unbalanced or not fun? If nobody told you about them, you wouldn't even know. That is how subtle it is.

I apologize. In my eyes, my statement was blatantly obvious and could not be interpreted in any other way.


EDIT: Ok Thom, my bad.

I must agree this seems like a fair suggestion. Since so many people death level for this title, more and more runes are being found from the Charr, and it seems completely stupid that they are all wasted.

I don't see the danger in adding the expert salvage kits to pre-searing anyway. I am not even sure why they aren't there. You can't salvage weapon mods from pre-searing weapons, same as anywhere else. There are no extra items you could salvage for mods not available later in the game, and I'm pretty certain there aren't any special runes you could sneakily attain either.

I would guess the only issue is Rare Materials. The pre-searing has no use for them, and no way to make Money off them. The idea of pre-searing was, originally, to provide a gentle introduction to the game for the newbies. Since people now play it fulltime, perhaps changes should be made.

So perhaps an Expert Salvage Kit isn't what's needed. Perhaps instead, there should be a new kind of Salvage Kit introduced that deals purely with Runes and Basic Materials (it could just be an extension of what already exists in pre-searing).

Other than that, /signed. A good suggestion.

A nice battle with the ANet Bots .

Since you've addressed me again, I'll respond in kind. Please read and consider what I say in response to the other half of your comments.

You say that you have a pre-searing character with no items that can only be obtained from post-sear or the expert salvage kits. Hey that's great! You're one of many.

You say that you want Anet to leave well enough alone. Ok...that's your opinion, but you don't exactly say what "well enough" is.

You say that I want expert salvages added because others have a few runes. It's more than a "few", and it's more than just runes.

Why stop there, you ask? These same people have gold/green weapons why not ask Anet to make those drop? Not the same issue. Yes, they were glitched in, but they are not being used to the same effect. Those items are tied to one user, and are likely customized. An expert salvage kit that they glitched in can be abused for a very long time, against a lot of different people. A year and a half has past, and it's still being used as a high profit engine for these people.

Based on the logic of the OP, where does it end? When an addition of an expert salvage levels the playing field. The only people affected are the cheaters, and exploiters.

No other advantage to the people that have the glitched in kits? I'm sorry, but you haven't read much of this thread. There is MASSIVE profit being made here. Not to mention these people have access to game content that the average player does not.

I could address more of your post directly, but I don't think it's needed.

Let me ask you this. Do you think that any person or persons should have access to the game's content that others do not? Are you interested in a fairness that extends to everybody? The simple solution is clarion. Having access to an expert salvage kit in pre-searing cleans up the black market in one stroke. It gives this "tutorial" part of the game an additional learning tool (if that's your angle/argument).

There is nothing but positive outcome in this option (unless you are a blackmarket "have").

Slippery slope again. This is not a valid argument. If you want to prove that a certain innocent, non-objectionable change is a bad idea, because it will lead to some other unwanted, objectionable change, you need to show how one will lead to the other.

It is not enough to state that a good idea, when taken to extremes, becomes a bad idea - that is almost always the case, where ideas are concerned.

And, as this very thread with its quotations of ArenaNet's standard reply to problems and requests shows, most of the time when someone complains Anet humors and ignores them. So saying that someone would complain isn't enough to prove that one thing (expert salvage kits) will lead to another (gold weapons in pre)

Same deal.

Why doesn't it count as being broke? There is no imbalance in PvE, therefore any examples of it don't exist?

http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...sofconduct.php
19. You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars. Bugs should be promptly reported via "Ask a Question" at http://support.guildwars.com.

So either the existing expert/superior salvage kits etc. need to be removed or ban the exploiters as per the GW rules of conduct. I doubt either will happen.

The better solution would be to add the expert salvage kits and lets all move on happily.

The OP's contention is that since an item was brought into pre due to an unintended glitch, then that item should be integrated into the game legitimately. So it stands to reason that ANY item that was brought in to pre through that same method should receive the same treatment.

Item X was brought to pre through method A, therefore object X should be made a drop in pre.
Therefore if Item Y was brought to pre through method A, object Y should also be made a drop in pre.

I fail to see why you fail to see the logistics of that concept.



Absolutely correct. If something does not exist then there certainly can be no examples of said thing.

I already signed this in a previous post on this thread but the kits should not be from the merchants thats too easy
but from a drop say from an extra higher lvl boss I dunno lvl 10 or 15 surrounded by the bosses we now have
or just from the bosses now and no extra boss would even work.
Would give that added challenge to getting a kit AND learning about the diff between standard kits and expert kits
and there use
before they go post.

But I could be wrong on this idea.

I repeat, slippery slope. You're still saying, "We can't do x, because it will lead to y."

Now you've added: X will lead to Y because the same logic could be used to justify both decisions. Now we know why they are both on the same slope. What we do not know is why the slippage will occur. And that's what you need to prove.


Um. Apparently you didn't notice the humor there, but as long as we're being serious about it...

1. The burden of proof rests on the positive assertion. You cannot prove the non-existence of something.

2. The conclusion cannot precede the hypothesis.

I would request you reread the entire first post once more, before commenting again. You have taken on a perversion of my thread.

My post is an endeavour to make the pre-searing area a level playing field for all players. It is meant to give a solution to the blackmarket extortion that exists because those that used an exploit, and are still reaping the rewards a year and a half later.

The solution is not a "because they have it, we all should have it" senario.

It's measure that can be use to alleviate the condition that exists because of the difficulty in removing all these items from the pre-searing area that don't belong naturally. That is not an option. Anet has said point blank, that they will not remove previously exploited items.

That's fine.

What I'm after is making a pre-searing change that lets everyone enjoy the access to runes, insignias, and weapon mods, without having to be held at the mercy of an item (the expert salvage kit) that doesn't have legal means of being obtained.

Have I not made my point clear enough? If not, ask me. Please.

You seem to be getting rather angry with me, for what I don’t know, other then the fact that I don’t think expert salvage kits belong in pre. I understand your position and your sentiment, I simply do not think your solution is a good one because it does not solve the issue that you say is bothering you. It only serves to make pre more like post and I feel that is a bad thing to do, the appeal of pre is that it is NOT post.

If, as you say, your point is to make the “playing field level”, then you MUST also insist that greens and golds and any other max damage weapon, as well as max mods, be included as new drops in pre as well as introducing expert salvage kits. If you ONLY introduce the ability to get minor runes then this playing field you speak of will most certainly STILL not be anywhere near level. Your assumption that the numbers of max items (whatever color they may be) transferred to pre are far smaller then the number of runes being salvaged is outright false. I personally know of at least as many max damage weapons as I know of runes. And so far as the money made off of them, well one max damage 15^50 20/20 +30 sword, even a blue collectors one, will sell, in pre, for FAR more then dozens of expert salvage purchases. So again I state that ONLY including expert salvage kits will NOT level anything monetarily.

You have stated, and I certainly do not begrudge you this, that your only reason for this is to punish those who exploited a glitch. I have no problem with that sentiment, I agree with it, I think anyone who exploits a glitch should have their account banned, or at the very least have their items taken from them. But as has been mention numerous times, that is not going to happen. So the choice is either make ALL of the “illegal” items available to everyone, as is only fair, or just get over the fact that what happened happened and move on. To only punish some of the people who were accomplices after the fact, those who purchased runes or purchased kit uses, which by your own admission includes yourself, seems rather pointless and trivial when the people who actually DID exploit the glitch will no doubt walk away scott-free with the money they made by having already sold them. Those people, those who really did glitch will not be punished or inconvenienced in any way shape or form. And the people with max damage, max mod weapons will still have a massive monetary advantage over everyone else.

I think it pathetic how ppl against this matter have continually dragged up more and more dramatic responces that are off the subject by a wide mark to try and make their case. The issue before everyone here is should we level the use of salvages in pre, make them availible at a decent price to all, NOT should we write every unbalance that might bother everyone in pre. Gold and Green weapons have no place in this thread as part of the subject matter.

Not angry with you at all Oofus,

I just don't like my point of view to be represented in the wrong way. To say that I "must" support this or that, because I have a certain stance on the subject is in error.

I have no wish to "punish" anyone. Infact, as you state, if I did want to punish anybody, I'd have to include myself!

What I do want, is a chance to stop the blackmarket in the most effective and non-destructive method.

I concede that we don't agree that an expert-salvage kit belongs in pre. That doesn't mean I'm canvassing for a mass conversion of pre-searing to post searing standards. I hold true however, that the introduction of that kit would wipe out the majority of the blackmarket plus enhance the quality of the community there (a point you're set to not agree with already).

Now, I'm working within the restrictions of what Anet has already said on this matter. This is a key point that you must understand. In case you are unaware of the situation, I'll let you know. Anet support has decided that the removal of all post-searing gear is not necessary after removing the guild hall exploit from the game.

That being said, people are still making crazy profit from a glitch/exploit. 1 1/2 years later, and they are still taking advantage of the fact that Anet didn't want to go through the trouble (huge pain in the ass) of removing all the post-gear from every single exploiter in Pre-searing. By far the most common black market item for sale is, yup, you guessed it. A use from a salvage kit. Prices are 60K-300K, per use.

Why should this be left unchecked? Because nobody had the conviction to press the issue?

The benefits for adding a pre-searing expert salvage kit have been mentioned many times already, so I don't need to repost them. I hope this clears up a little of what I'm standing up for.

I am trying to understand why anyone would pay major, major coin, to "black marketer" to salvage a rune or whatever. There is no need for runes or weapons mods in pre, even with the "Title". The runes and other salvaged items that are used in pre, are IMO, "vanity" items. If you want to be "vane", pay up.

BTW, I have a "perma pre" character with earned Charr bags. When it has no more room in inventory, a guildmate makes a quick character and takes everything to post for me. I make more coin this way, than farming in post. I do same for him. I have no need for runes and weapons mods, and I don't see a reason for Expert salvage kits in pre.

I agree here with these points. I was one of the lucky few to have farmed out a fair bit of cash (ok, a lot of cash) with the first prot bond 55's. This allowed me to completely abuse the 250g each ecto crash and become even richer. A-net realized their mistake but they didn't roll back the ecto. The second time, as was mentioned, they did roll it back since the first crash did single handedly put a huge dent in the amount of gold the mass of players had versus the amount of gold a select few had.

With the abuse of the guild hall, A-net did see that while they made a mistake in allowing it, they fixed it by removing the hall option. It will only be so long before the kits eventually do run out so I doubt any fix will be made.

Pre IS a tutorial area so why NOT have expert salvage kits drop/bought/collector traded in pre so new players can learn how to use them.
I was totally confused when i went to post for the first time and wondered why the diff ident kits.
I soon learned the diff but why not learn this in pre.
As was said in a few posts it is a win win situation if anet added them to pre it
would cut down this part of the black market in salvages same way as they added the green Charr bags.

Hello all,

Just a fyi, I have updated the original post. Customer Support has sent the service ticket to the community relations manager.

Great news!

Please continue to voice your opinions. They are very much needed.

I am one of those people that has a perma-pre character. I also have a character that has moved on to post-searing that got the LDoA title. I have another character at lvl 18 and dlvling to 20.

The issue at hand here is the leveling of the playing field in pre-sear by adding expert salvage kits for all to benefit from. This would effectively do away with the black market that was created by the Guild Hall exploit that a few were able to get in on before it was fixed.

While the prices that Firebaall quoted are extremely high, they actually were unbelievably higher just months ago. At that time an expert salvage in pre would cost 75k pre gold and 350k post gold. The 60-75k quoted by Firebaall is post gold. The prices came down due to low demand by the pre community, and a "price war" amongst the black marketeers. Regardless, the prices are still way out of line, and Gold weapon pricing is even worse.

I merely offer the above info for your consumption.

I agree that Expert salvage kits SHOULD be added to pre-searing for the following reasons:

1. Kill the black market for expert salvages by leveling the playing field.
2. Because of the ever growing perma-pre population, it would allow for a fuller game experience.
3. Expert Salvage kits offer NO advantage for the death leveler since to speed up the process you actually benefit from removing all of your armor and health upgrades. You actually death level "naked".
4. Charr farming would be much more fun since you could actually use the runes and insignias that the Charr drop.

I see no negatives to adding expert salvage kits to a merchant(s) in pre-sear.

Why dont you just add a "Historian" that will allow Post Chars to travel back to Pre?

Factions and NF players can go back to their respective noob islands, why shouldnt Prophacies players get to "step back in time"?

This suggestion isn't unprecidented, as there is a historian already in NF that allows non-NF chars to partake in the first mission.

The pie gives their support for equality of all players and the fair eradication of this hideous and unwelcome 'pre searing salvage black market' from the game by the addition of the ability to buy expert salvage kits in presearing. Taking this course of action, I can only see a beneficial effect to the pre-searing community as a whole.


Let's hope the Guild Wars folk keep up their tradition of listening to the players

moans in delight ^ ^

/signed

I like Pre. It's really beautiful and when I don't have a whole lot of time to play, I'll run around in Pre and help new players and such. The thing I never liked about unsalvaged runes in Pre was inadverntently selling one to a new player who would then use a regular kit on the rune, waste it, and then get mad at me because she thought I scammed her. Yes, I've always refunded the money when this happens, but still... I'd much rather sell a salvaged rune and avoid this situation.

I also admit that I hold some resentment toward ANet about the whole thing due to their inaction. Yes they have their hands full, but it would take 15 seconds to put a new kind of kit in the merchant's inventory and deal with this problem once and for all.

So... either turn the guild hall button back on or put in expert salvage kits please. I'm good with either choice.

I'm going to try to answer your question.

Many people like to stay in pre searing (for whatever reason) and try to maximize their characters in this limited environment. This may come in maxing their level, their gold or dye reserves and having the best weapons they can find. However at some point you'll come to the point where the only way to further maximize your pre toon is by equipping your armor and weapons with (better) upgrades but the only way to obtain these upgrades is by paying a few individuals extraordinary amouns of gold. Either you pay up to those monopolists...or it's end of the upgrade road for you.

This I think is 1 of the most important reasons why people would pay major, major coin, to "black marketer" to salvage a rune or whatever.

Hope this answers your question

If you add Salvage kits, might as well allow Pre-Characters to go to the Guild Hall.

Everyone knows that once kits are added, everyone's going to want max dmg weapons to drop and a scroll trader to be added and more bosses to be added.

That's just how most GW players are, they always want more and more, no matter how unrealistic it is. It's all about personal gain.

It's not a great standpoint for any argument, sorry.

I will agree anything that is on the preislands should be in should be in Proph presearing.This would include all the services you mean they never had rune traders in prior to the searing or armour crafters.I would even put a lvl when you can leave maybe this would cut down on the bots say 9 or 10.Prophecies needs to be revamped you should be ascended before you get to ToA just like ther other Campaigns.

And why is that?

My forsight is this will lead to a domino effect if kits are introduced, this is just a minor opinion that I have, however, it is the one of the first that comes to mind.

Hes right..nothing goes good with a salvage kit like a nice max green weapon does

*gets out pen and paper and starts to make a list*

If you want to go suggest to have Anet add a rune trader, a xunlai storage, a fow armor crafter or whatever then I suggest you make another thread about it.
This is not what this thread is about.