A re-occuring issue I find with trading! The main reason I cant stand it!

I react the same way..there's something called negotiation, and 95% of these people don't know the meaning of it.

My alternative to writing "firm" at the end of adverts last night was this...

Case 1

Me: <WTB> # Trade Contacts - 700g each - wisp me
Guy: "I have 2 - 800g each"
Me: "700g or not trading"
Guy: "750g"
Me: "Mate their only worth 700g and Im not going over my budget"
Guy: "Ok, you can have the 2 then"
Me: "Cool"

Case 2

Me: <WTB> # Trade Contacts - 700g each - wisp me
Guy: "800g each, I have 2"
Me: "700g only, dont try it"
Guy: "Ok, 700g"

I had them try that on about 4 times last night and everytime I just said "dont bother trying it on", and they stopped and sold them for 700g.

There were the odd players who said "well ill sell them to someone else for 800g" and I just told them ok have fun.

Someone else was even asking to buy them for 1k each! That soon stopped when I mentioned he's going to make a loss by doing that because buying 7 TCs for 1k each is more expensive then just buying one rubi or saphire alone.

That bartering strategy is really common in the far east, almost expected there. Practically, if you're ever negotiating with a Chinese trader use the same tactic - figure out the lowest price that he'll sell for, offer it, and ignore his offers until he agrees. Or, if he's selling something you want, express interest and let him make offers until he's stopped, then take it.

But yeah, Americans *hate* that style of bartering. Westerners in general, when they do negotiate, tend to stake out two unreasonable values, and play tug-of-war with the difference to land on a price. And because bartering isn't all that common anymore, people take those negotiations and initial prices a lot more seriously than they ever should. So setting a price that you know they'll take but they don't want to, and refusing to budge, makes a lot of people feel like they've been 'beaten' at price tug-of-war and pisses them off to no end.

Of course, if they were any good at negotiating they wouldn't have the problem with the process itself or with getting emotionally caught up in it.

Peace,
-CxE

lol yeah...whatever happened to the old system of haggling and trying to lowball eachother till a mutual price is agreed upon and everyone gets what they want. i do (or did rather) haggle and whatnot quite often and it usually worked out fine. youde have the select few who want to pay half price of the market and not a friggin gold peice more end of story. i usually leave them to their quiet corners of trying to buy stuff half price and sell it double. ive gotten called noob quite often because someone would be selling something (say when ghails came out and it was running for 40k) i was selling mine for 20, ide rather spend less time in trade channel and more time farming. people who PM me harrasing me calling me everything but white because god forbid i take a general well accepted price of something and completely beat the crap out of it so everyone can have one. ive also called my fair share of people nubs and whatnot...not for selling something too expensive or trying to buy something too cheap because i do give the benefeit of the doubt to people who may not know, namely because youll see people say something like "WTS -- Best MM Staff for (insert inflated price)" when all it really was, was a blood staff. basically trying to scam some of the newer players who dont know better into buying something totally worthless. its my beleife however there is no such thing as scammers just people dumb enough to click accept.

and as a side note when using the term "barter" it generally means trading one item for another instead of selling for money. =P

Can't convince idiots.
It might have something to do with the problem that the topic creator has mentioned.

well the purple sword is less wanted, thus less valuable. The reason doesn't really matter, it is what price and demand is all about. It's like with soaps coming from the same factory, some will hive nice blue beads in it, and is associated with a certain brand. People will pay more for the same product due colors (or whatever).

Actually, I see nothing wrong with what they said. "purples should be priced [accordingly]" is right. If he denied purchasing it solely because it was purple, that's one thing. But denying purchase because you may have been selling a purple for what a gold version usually sells for is quite reasonable. Remember, an item is only worth what someone will pay for it, and if the masses say that purples are worth much less than golds, then they are.

Personally, I'd much rather have a blue or purple version of a skin I like if I can get it, mainly because of the cheap price. I'm certainly not going to pay the same price for a purple/blue as I would for a gold of the same stats. Just pointless, and I would consider myself an idiot if I did otherwise.

One can make offers that are "Negotiable" or "Firm". Both ways are legit.

Well the person in question was advertising, paraphrasing here, "Buying Swords 5k-15k that accept inscriptions". I asked for him for an offer, with in mind a price I was looking for (the 5k he said). He simply said 1k. I said I was looking for the 5k he said he was offering in the message I said above. Then the conversation is what is in the picture.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10081342
From here, a Tattooed Scimitar with a requirement of 9 Swordsmanship goes for 40-60k (which is obviously wrong, but I wish I can expect at least 5k for it). So I should receive, if it were sold at the max price, I receive 1.66% because it is purple?

And that's why the masses can be seen as idiots, and smart-minded people are labeled by the hardcore traders as noobs because they know that stats≥form>text. So if an item has a different text color, but can achieve the same stats, it must be worth more/less than others. I'm sure the monsters are constantly judging you because your Fellblade is 15>50 and Purple rather than 15>50 and Gold texted. I'm sure there is a 1% increase in damage with exactly the same text if you have a gold weapon rather than a purple weapon. It's nice getting purples at cheap prices with good skins (like a R11 Storm Bow that I got for 11k), but I would trade that if gold and purple items were relatively close together. It would be nice if purples could go for even a fraction of what golds go for. Then I would obviously be richer.
You can't fight the masses, but you can call them all they want and they won't listen.

I have been thinking about this before and I have come to a simple conclusion : the majority of GW players are simply kids. They have no idea what does "traditional trading" include and how to use this "thing". The thing is that you need to be patient, and make sure you don't spend a lot of time trying to convince some kiddo to buy your item after you see the "canceled" message appear. I've wasted tons of time trying to communicate with these "traders" and the outcome is always the same. From 10 buyers you will get 1 that can speak english normally and will actually bother to bargain with you. Best thing to do is use the forums or auctions and just forget about your item after posting. Eventually someone will buy it (the merchant will if no person does).

My advice is to leave these children aside and avoid wasting your time. Make sure you get your items Price-checked and then you can be sure how much can you get or pay for an item.

If stats > everything as you've stated, we wouldn't be trading with each other and we'd use the collector/crafter's weapons instead.

This whole gold/purple/blue item system in GW is everything BUT stats. If someone doesn't feel like paying "whatever k" for a purple item but will pay "1 million g" for a gold item with the same skin/stats as the purple one, it's his very own RIGHT to do so. For you to come out here and say that he's stupid/wrong is just....well.... "RED ENGINE GORE ENGINE" (I censored it myself, yes).

Seriously, calling anyone idiot because of this is like calling the entire fasion community "idiots" because they are, well, all about fasion too, no?

You are going offtopic now. This is about traders that do not know how to trade, not the price of items or the difference in their color. If you can afford to buy a gold item with the same stats as a purple one, but at a higher price, you are not an idiot. Well spending your last money on such thing would be idiotic, yes, but if you have enough riches - why not. Anyways, we are talking about the kiddos that have no idea how to trade and how to deal with their stupidity. (since the 12+ is not regarded by anyone and even younger trolls play the game. -_-)

Maybe it's because I was replying to the messages ABOVE you (by Scary Raebbit)?

He is offtopic as much as you are.

Anyway, back on track....

.......I've actually been having more luck lately trading, but only for one reason! I got desperit enough to have to sell items for stupidly low prices!

I ended up selling my perfect weapons for 5k each, just to scrape the cost of my vabbian armor. Which I finally got, but only after selling things for a steal.

I've learnt its best to ask the buyer to make an offer before I do. That way they have NO excuse to winge and storm off if you ask for something they cant afford.

You can judge that asking 2-4 k more isnt unreasonable, and they can barter to somewhere between if they have the sense.

Whenever I trade, I have one of two mindsets. Either I'm selling something and have a reasonable price in mind and that's what I want to get at the conclusion of the trade or I'm buying something and I just want it as quickly and painlessly as possible.

I've found buyers tend be very polarized in their behaviour: either idiots that waste your time or *click* sold. The former type will NOT stop whining and bugging you for the item(s) you're selling, which gets really annoying after a while.

When I'm buying, I do NOT WANT TO HEAR "offer" from a seller when I ask a price. My standard reply is "That doesn't happen in the real world when you want to buy something, don't do it here". Yeah, I can see grocery stores and hardware stores with sales associates all saying "Well how much can you afford for that kilo of sugar?" or "Make an offer on that belt sander".

I've basically quit Guild Wars because of the lack of a trading system. Two years of spamming messages in chat to sell things is idiocy, and "We can't give you an auction house because IT R TOO COMPLYCATTED" doesn't really float as an excuse. The idiot designer(s) who came up with "Oh they can just sell items through the TRADE CHANNEL" and CR apologists for that "system" really need a smack in the face.

Personally, I like to see sellers with a bit of intelligence and/or humor in their posts. You get sick of seeing the same old boring lines in chat that look like they came straight from a bot:

Xooo Fggg: W T S 7 unided 7=5k
Xooo Fggg: W T S 7 unided 7=5k
Xooo Fggg: W T S 7 unided 7=5k
Xooo Fggg: W T S 7 unided 7=5k
Xooo Fggg: W T S 7 unided 7=5k

This morning I saw a trader in Kaineng posting this message in trade.

"WTS --1-- Wintergreen Candy Cane 100k + 10 ectos. Will throw in a free Kuunavang minipet with purchase.

I don't particularly need a Kuunie right now, but I would have bought from him before buying from others if I did.

Well as I said before; from my experience you sell stuff alot more if you ask the buyer to make an offer first.

The reason being;

If you (as the seller) make an offer, then 9/10 times you get called a noob, told thats far too expensive, the CANCEL and just walk off without a word or you get "Sorry I only have 500g".

But if you say to the buyer "what can you offer?", then you know what their idea is on price. You can ask for slightly more and avoid their childish behaviour.

It may be frustrating for real traders, and players who understand the principle of trading. But unfortunately 90% of people in this game are prone to acting like children. You have to cater for their immature attitudes and do everything you can to avoid having them winge like a baby.

So you ask what they can offer, to get an idea of what they can offer.

It removes any excuse they have to kick up a fuss, and winge and call you names! You basically have to treat people like children if they insist on acting like children.

A perfect example again....(im full of them)....

I was posting in an outpost "<WTS> Good longbow 7k". A tiny, cheap 7k for a near perfect vampiric longbow!!!

I had a fellow Ele whisp me saying "I will buy it"!

I opened trade and the guy put a crap axe and 1k into the offer! I said to the guy "mate grow up, you saw what I was asking for and you wanted to trade".

He THEN went onto whisper me about 3 times calling me a noob!

This was a low-level player, in low armor and the worst colour combination you had ever seen. Calling a Gaurdian of Cantha a noob because he got told to grow up, after offering me 1/7th of the price I asked for.

This is the mentality of players who trade, and this is why I always (from now on) leave prices off and say "what are you offering?" first. It doesnt matter whether you even post a price, 9/10 players dont even read it and offer you half of it.

I'm not going to buy a gold 14-21 Broadsword no matter what color it is, unless it is only for a a caster with +5 Energy. The same would go for a gold Platinum Wand with 9-12 damage and 19/19 stats. A person would prefer something with perfect stats. That is why I said "greater or equal to".

And the reason I pointed it out was because the person said "paying 5-15k" for a sword that was able to taken an inscription. So something should be worth less than what the person was offering at least only because it is a different text color? Even if it has a decent skin? Does the skin change because it is purple or gold? No they aren't Eloninan/Steel/Talon daggers. Even if it has max damage and can take inscriptions? The only reason it is worth less is because of text color?

Yeah it's the person's right to pay whatever they want, but if I can't get more than 1k for something that I think can get at least 5k when that is what the person said he is at least paying, then I have the right to get mad about it.
Who the hell cares about the fashion industry? You wear what you like and pay whatever how much you like for it.

Now im going off subject in my own thread, but you do realise this is an MMO?

MMOs be nature are fickel and people are just as bothered about apearance, then they are stats. More so in some cases, especially weapon skins!

Back onto track, this is one reason you can never shift most stuff ingame. You could have an amazing weapon, thats perfect and effective and should be worth around 20-30k.

But just because the skin is "out of fashion" or "un-rare", its value drops by about 10 fold and you can't shift it for pennies!

I've personally never cared about weapon skins, and simply bought or used which ever ele weapon I liked. I now have Rago's fire staff, which just happens to be very nice, but before that I had an ok looking one.

But I didnt care because it did the job! I used that for over a year!

Prices in GWs are dictated by skins primarily! Then by stats and colour!

It just adds to the annoyance of having to trade, because skins can go in and out of fashion within days! Just as prices can shoot up or fall within days!

Prices ingame are dictated by "fashion" and by whats popular and not popular! This entire game is like a "fashion industry"!

In response to the original poster (and many more here complaining about people not bartering):

Sorry, but I am one of those people that will not barter. Why? Because I hate wasting my time on an activity I dislike.
You offer your item at a price I will buy it? => I'll give you the money you asked for and take it.
You offer it at an overvalued price and expect me to haggle you down wasting 15 minutes of my life? => I'll go do something fun instead.

Bartering does nothing but complicating trade in the hope of scamming an unaware noob by making him pay outlandish prices.

- Xeeron

No wrong, bargaining is a concept that allows to iterate towards a compromise. Bartering is exchange trade of goods BTW. It is not a mechanism that was invented to scam noobs, bargaining is a much older concept.

<<OP

I dont mind that some people dont like to barter. What really, really, REALLY annoys me is this...

*Open trade and put items up!*

"How much?"
"Ill sell it to you for 15k?"

*Trade cancelled*

No comments, no "no thank you". Nothing! They just cancel and walk off!

Its the absolute lack of respect and lack of communication thats does my absolute head it. It annoys me even more when I advertise something and put "wisp me" at the end.

Then some random person, without a hi or hello, just clicks trade on me.

I never accept to trade unless someone speaks to me first. It annoys me to high heaven when people dont even have the decency to say "can I see" before they click trade.

Its like "what? what do you want? what do want to see?"!!!

Im not a mind reader!!

A simple "can I see?" or a "no thanks" wud do me!

But people are that arrogant and in that much of a rush, that communication just gets pushed out the window.

Imagine you walked into a shop, asked how much 10 slices of ham were and then just walked out! Thats exactly what its like. And I used to work on a deli and people actually did that and its annoying.

And sorry, but bartering is a way to scam noobs?

*In the words of Dr Who from his last episode* What? Whattttt? WHAT?

Did you honestly just make that statement?

I think hell just froze over and a pig flew past!!! That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Bartering is not a way to scam people, its a well standing and traditional way to trade goods.

It existed long before money and gold!

How do you think people bought food 1000 years ago. They haggled with sheep and crops!

Your LESS likely to get scammed if your barter, then you are if you just accept a direct price! If you haggler, you can get the person to drop the price, so how is that scamming?

If someone is stupid enough to accept an inflated price, because they cant haggle properly then thats their fault.

I like barterting just fine - like a couple of the other people who have posted here, I lived abroad in a place where haggling in the norm (in my case, in the Middle East) and learned a few tricks of the trade.

But you're wrong when you say that just because bartering is venerable or old or widely accepted that it is de facto fair, or that it is somehow antithetical to scamming. Because one thing that a barter economy depends on is privileged access to information - most buyers and sellers struggle to have the best information about what different items are worth, and they don't share that information because it gives them an advantage in trade. Or if they do share it, they barter over it too.

I'll never forget that when I first arrived in the Middle East, I bought a carpet for $800. I bought an carpet of the same style and size one year later for $40. Why? Because at the beginning, my experience (in the US) led me to believe that carpet was worth $800, and the carpet-seller wasn't going to tell me otherwise. After a year, I'd been able to gather enough information on my own to correct my original mistaken assumption, and capitalize on it.

I guess I would say that I was scammed originally - but it's on a sliding scale, really, and any kind of bartering will only be fair if both partners in the trade are more or less equal in their knowledge base.

A very good point, Personette. Your experience that you shared with us is an excellent one.

freekedoutfish - someone outright denying purchase without a word is pretty much what is done on a daily basis in the Western world. Think about it: You're out shopping for a pair of jeans (gold weapon). There are some really nice ones (rare skins, 100k+), but you just need some jeans that look pretty good, but aren't expensive (uncommon skins, anywhere from 5k-60k). You go to Sears and find some decent jeans, but a little higher than you want to pay (someone advertising a decent weapon for 15k). Do you go up to the counter and say "These are too expensive, how about I offer XX instead?" -or- do you simply walk out and go to a different store and keep shopping?

Now, it may be impolite to walk off without saying anything to the salesperson who was trying to help you in the store, but people do that all the time. Reasons vary from being embarrassed about not being able to afford it, to being outright mad at the steep price and finding it better to say nothing at all then what they really want to say. Either way, this way of shopping is ingrained in most everyone's mind (again, at least in the Western world), and shines through to how we trade with others in an online environment.

It can be frustrating, agreed, especially if you have the mindset to haggle, and the other person wouldn't even dream of it. There is haggling involved with super-expensive purchases, like cars, houses, and of course in-game with high-end items like rare minis and uber rare skinned weapons. Like I said in an earlier post, it's just not worth it to expect bartering when it comes to items less than 100k, for the most part. If you want to be a power-trader, fine, get you a ring of friends you can barter with. But for the average Joe Q Public in GW, it's best to sell items with stiff and cheap pricetags to get the items out the door. That's my philosophy, at least.

I wasnt saying its that people had to buy an item if they asked the price. I accept that an item might be too expensive or just not what they want.

But as I said, I worked on a deli in a major supermarket for 4 years. I was on the recieving end of every rude customer you could imagine.

To suggest its ok to not be polite, by not saying "no thanks", "please" or "thankyou", just because they dont have time is NOT a good excuse or a reason.

No one is ever in that much of a rush that they cant either, smile or say something in return. It takes no more less then a second to look someone in the face or and say "No thanks, ill look elsewhere" or to type out "No thank you".

There is NEVER an excuse to simply be dismissive, rude and arrogant just because you dont think you have 1 second to give to be polite.

I know how it feels when you work an 8 hour shift and all your customers are straight out rude, and then just ONE customer comes along who smiles, and talks to you and it makes your ENTIRE day feel worth while.

You forget the other 100 customers who have made you annoyed and wound you up, because this one person has had the manors to talk to you!

Thats why im always polite, and always smile and speak to people when in shops and trading online.

It doesnt take any effort to be polite.

I didn't say anything about not having the time. I seriously doubt any of these people who dismissively close the window and run off do so because of time restraints. I gave the possible reasons of embarrassment or anger, which I believe are the real reasons.

Forget for a moment that there is anonymity of the internet and all that. Many people don't like expressing their emotions, even if it's not visible at all, such as text on your screen. Even a simple "oh, no thanks" might be conceived, in their own eyes, as "I can't afford that", and that might be something they're not ready to admit to anyone, if they feel that having enough money to blow is a status thing. Thus, embarrassment. Saying nothing at all leaves you wondering "what in the world was that about?" rather than "Haha, noob is broke!", which may be something they fear.

Do you follow what I'm saying?

If, instead, they feel your high price is "utterly ridiculous", they might consider it more polite to just walk away, again leaving you wondering what the deal with the person was, rather than tell you what they really want to say ("Are you joking? It's not worth that!"). Personally, I'd rather have this type of person walk off than say that, but that's me.

Regardless what you may think, people are generally concerned with how they are viewed by others. With nothing said, you are left with questions, rather than assumptions. For instance, here you assumed it was always a time constraint. You think of them as assholes for not wanting to take two seconds to say something. That might be better to them than thinking them cheapskates or elitists.

I, personally have always communicated with others, to escape this kind of problem. Although I try to see things from other's point of view, and avoid jumping to conclusions. Just because something seems rude to you or I, does not mean it seems rude to someone else. Manners are subjective, for the most part.

I do see what you mean and sorry for being agressive. Im obviously still traumatised from Safeway

But i just dont see why, if im polite to someone, they cant be polite back. I realise some people are shy and dont like communication. But you have to wonder they their playing an MMO if that is the case.

It relys on communication and team work and speaking and all the rest.

This is why I don't trade.

I merch everything, probably making far, far, less than I could otherwise. But it saves me time and frustration.

I wish that ANet would take gold out of the trading equations. You can trade items, not cash. If you want cash, sell to a merchant/trader. This dream would require them to actually update merchants and traders with closer to market values on many, many items however.