Beware the "In-game Store"

{EDIT: I have removed portions of this post that have since been proven to be inaccurate, mostly due to a misunderstanding on my part - shared by others in the community. These misunderstandings revolved around usernames and email addresses being permanently locked in. I don't do this to hide my error, which has been conceded in a post below, but rather to ensure clarity in the first post of the thread, so that future post can productively address genuine issues of concern. The remaining issues are based on exchanges with support agents and observations of press releases and pricing policies. These issues are still a point of confussion for many and continue to be addressed on both sides of the issue.}


Now let's try a little hypothetical here... Say you were born in England. And when you were little, you would save up a few shillings of your allowance to buy an icecream from the desert menu at McDonalds. Now let''s just say that as a teenager, your family moves to Vermont. You meet some new friends and head out together to get an Icecream from McDonalds. Imagine your surprise when the girl behind the counter will accept dollars from all of your friends, but insists that you pay in shillings. Why would she insist such a thing(when she clearly accepts dollars)? Because when you first bought an icecream from McDonalds, you paid in shillings.

That just sounds plain ridiculous, doesn't it. Well, I was in New Zealand for a little over half a year. It just so happened to be the same time that Factions was released. As it was not available in any retailer in my area, if I wanted the game, I had to purchase by means of the online store. They asked for my address - a gave them the current one. I saw no harm in this, as it was clear from the pages that means were available to update address information in the future. There was no warning that entering information would PERMANENTLY lock in the currency for the online store. Over a year since, and it has come time to shop for GW:EN. And now they have deemed fit to reveal that such information is PERMNENTLY set in place and "cannot" be changed. That it can't be changed is utter bladerdash. That they don't feel motivated to do so is more likely the case.

Am I upset by all this? You bet your ass I am. As illustrated elsewhere, purchasing GW:EN in a foreign unfavorable currency can add as much as $18 to the price. How would you feel if you were being asked to pay $18 more than everyone else for something?

If you think that PERMANENTLY locking in an email address and PERMANENTLY pigeon holding someone to one location and one currency is the model of good business practice, please explain. The game software even allows you a limited number of server transfers for play purposes. I see no reason why a similar feature should not be made available in the online store for those of us who are not stapled to one corner of the world. There is NO good reason why something as ephemeral as an email address should be permanently affixed to an account.



EDIT 2: I also fixed some spelling errors that jumped out at me.

welcome to every online game in the omniverse.

How dare you present a problem with the game that you are rightfully upset with? OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!!!

Protect your email.

Ok, maybe I was a little off with my understanding of the email problem, but it still has problems, as explained here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=160

I guard my email address like a hawk. That does nothing for the problem with being locked in as a European in the Online store, when I've never even been to Europe (New Zealand is about as far from Europe as you can get).

You can change the servers on which you play (all be it a limited number of times).

Similarly, you should be able to change the already accepted means by which you pay.

When i buy stuff from Japan, i have to buy in yen. When i buy stuff from india, its in rupees.

Whats the problem?

You can change the territory you PLAY in. But once you've purchased something, you cannot change the territory/currency you PAY in. This is the crux of the problem.

I will admit that I misunderstood the issue with the email address and the login. I still think it is a poor practice to permanently lock a username to an account, though this is not as bad as I initially understood with my faulty understanding of the email issue. That said, can we put that aside and examine...

Once you pay for a purchase in the online store, you are forever bound to that currency, regardless of your current principal residence.

QFT

If I'm in North America, why can't i pay in dollars?


because (official support response):
I refuse to believe they are "unable" to change this. They simple don't want to. That is not satisfactory.

I too don't like the fact that, simply because I live in Australia, I have to pay in the online store using an unfavourable currency. I posted about this in Gaile's thread about Mission pack availability as well. If I want that mission pack, I'll have to pay $58 AUD for GWEN, as opposed to the $49 I would pay at EB, or $44 I would be paying if I could use USD as my currency in the online store. Simply because I bought my game in Australia.

I can completely understand how countesscorpula feels.

The problem is that I live in Australia and have to pay in pounds in the online store. Sure, I can understand that I can't pay in AUD. But why am I forced to use a currency from a country that is such a huge distance away. The US has an ocean between them and us. Britain, on the other hand, has a couple of continents, as well as a few oceans. Australia is about as far away from Britain as anyone can get. Why am I being forced to pay in pounds?

I also don't believe they are unable to change the billing currency.

That's a load. MAKE IT so we can change it. It is not fair to Australians.

I mean seriously, why the heck can't they charge us in Aussie Dollars or at least some way that amounts to AU$50?

I'm going to have to say this again. We're NOT BRITISH. We're on the other side of the frickin' world.

Well CC that is a lot of inconvenience caused by moving around, little flexibility there in such an automated system. I hope your cry for convenience will land in their ears, and its fully supported by me. I'm gonna get another email soon too, so it should be changed.

I understand. And I believe I understand their policy as well... being in an administrative position and having to generate reports involving money. Changing currency is a really big deal. Unless they can program a feature into their system (the one that can't even get the encryption correct) that will automatically update all the steps in their billing process (and I don't believe they can without incurring huge expense), it would all have to be done manually... for several million users (remember they service several games). Needless to say, that's fiscally impossible.

Regarding the current exchange rate... the pendulum swings both ways and will eventually swing back in your direction. Patience. Eat it now and have your cake later.

well sorry, but if you don't want to take the time to read that it specifically says that happens when you buy, then its your fault.

People get in more crap these days by just not reading what they are agreeing too.

Where exactly does it say that? When I made my first purchase in the online store (the one that locked my currency as pounds) it never gave me any warning that once I make this initial purchase that this would be the currency I would have to use for every other purchase I ever make. I don't remember it giving me any sort of disclaimer giving me this information. If I'm wrong, please let me know so that I can start kicking myself for not thinking ahead. By the way, just to avoid any confusion, I'm talking about the GW online store, the one that uses the GW client. Not the NCSoft store on their website.

I've been set to European Servers since before I even made a playNC account. Yet, the store gives me prices in USD, since I live in North America.

I believe the issue stems from the same problem that makes it so Australian Players start out in European districts.

I believe they said something about that where you registered for your PlayNC account.

Erm, no it doesn't! Well, it never has for me and I've spent quite a bit in the online store!

I sympathise completely with the OP, but I can't comment as I'm in England and my store has always been in real money, i.e. pounds sterling!

I don't suppose you or anyone else could provide me with the disclaimer or terms and conditions that it says when registering a PlayNC account through the GW client. I really do not remember being presented with anything, but I usually don't read those sorts of things so I wouldn't expect myself to remember. I just wanna put my mind at rest, so I can call myself an idiot and get on with my life.

Either way, I really wish that they would allow for this situation. Specifically since all GW editions bought in Australia are European. I understand that it may be difficult to change the currency now, but perhaps if they allowed the customer to choose the initial currency, instead of just taking it from the account settings.

Or, one simple solution to the problem would be to make sure that the price of the game in Europe is at least almost equivalent to that of the US. I mean, in the official press release, the price was set at 34.99 euro. That's around 48 USD, which is kind of ridiculous. Why should the game cost more in Europe than in America?

Edit: And sometimes companies just don't make their policies public. It took over three days for a support agent to locate an "answer" to this issue. In the very least, that indicates that the information was not readily available.

This is what it looks like in the on-line store when you are asked to link to a PlayNC account to make a purchase:




Nothing on that page indicates that you will be permanently linked to the currency of that location forever and ever amen. They allow you to update your contact information, there is no good reason that the same little piece of programming that selects a currency based on that initial location can't make an update when the contact info(location) is updated.

They don't have to generate financial reports on my collective purchases. Said purchases are taking place in different fiscal years and will not see the pages of the same report. Furthermore, the prices listed in the PlayNC store while I am logged into my Play NC Master account are in US$. So, if I am to be encouraged to shop in the online store to receive an exclussive "free" bonus mission pack, I must pay an additional 15-18 dollars US. No, that's not free, that's a kick in the privates.

If I have a customer in Iowa, and a retail outlet in Iowa, and that customer first purchased my product while touring Paris, I would be a fool and a tremendous Jackass if I insisted that the customer make all future purchases through Paris, and refused any requests to make a sale through the Iowa outlet.

I totally agree with everything in the OP.

Many posters had mentioned these things in the first "Bonus Pack Availability" thread as a reason why they will never, ever use the GW online store no matter what. Of course that concern for the most part got buried under the "I do not have a credit card!!!" concern.

When you first attempted to make a purchase in the ingame store, you were notified in writing that the store was an extension of PlayNC and that you would have to register at PlayNC.com before you could make the purchase. You were then directed to a registration page, and when you registered with PlayNC it was no different than registering at any other site. Like every other site you were provided with information about policies and procedures including billing procedures, and you were required to check a little box indicating that you'd read and agreed to all the terms. I have no way of finding out if this particular policy was outlined on the registration page since I'm past it and don't know how to view it again without registering again, but...

It states in the user agreement:

5. CAMPAIGN & ADDITIONAL FEATURE PURCHASE

(a) Our fees and billing procedures are published in the registration section of the Web Site, which are incorporated herein by this reference...

If you know how to access that page, I would really appreciate it if you would post a link to it. The same to you CC... if you can access that page, I have little doubt that you'd be more than willing to post it. Thanks!

I would really appreciate it if you would provide some links to billing software that provides such features. I've looked myself and haven't had any luck. Thanks!
We don't have any software (other than the microsoft office stuff) that is configured now as it was when we bought it. Our programmers and engineers and the software developers are constantly tweaking and/or adding modules as our needs change. The last module we added to a scheduling program that interfaces with our billing program (JD Edwards... the billing program used throughout the major film and television studio of which we are a department) was offered to us at $25,000, and we're just a lil ol' digital post production house with only a fraction of the customers than PlayNC has. I suspect PlayNC probably uses JDEdwards or one of the other PeopleSoft programs. Or maybe SAP. Are you familiar with any of them?

Agreed, I have no problem with buying things online with a credit card, such as from Amazon, but the shoddy way the GW online store has been implemented is the primary reason I refuse to link my game account to it, especially since I have an account to risk rather than one-off purchases of physical goods.

If Anet really wants to promote their online store, fixing the issues raised in this thread will probably work better than this exclusive bonus mission pack scheme.

Here's some of the rest of that...
(

All fees are stated in U.S. Dollars. {stuff about being able to continue to play, without requiring purchase of subsiquent campaigns. Other stuff about not be refunded for interuption of service}
If you purchase the Campaign and/or Additional Features online using a credit card, we will automatically charge you through your chosen payment method for the applicable new Campaign and/or Additional Features purchases, plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, where you authorize us to do so.

^^^Payment method of your choice. I'm not being given a choice.

{stuff about you beign the proper user of the credit card}. You agree to promptly notify NC Interactive of any changes to your account number, its expiration date and/or your billing address, and you agree to promptly notify NC Interactive if your account expires or is cancelled for any reason.


It says nothing about a payment method being permanently fixed. It says nothing about a currency being permanently fixed - though it does make a note about using american dollars. The bit about promptly notifying NCsoft of billing changes suggests that alterations in payment method are possible. Furthermore, as stated elsewhere, the NCsoft Store actually allows me to pay in US$. But if I do this I will be denied the "free" bonus material. Free Bonus Material that requires me to buy from the right hand, at $15-18 more than the left hand is not free at all.

I also tracked down the "registration section." It doesn't say anything about permanently fixing a currency in the In-game store either. If you can find a policy that has been publically posted indicating that first purchase through the online store will lock all future purchases to that currency, I will concede that it was my own error in not reading said policy that led to the current problem I am experiencing.

On the other hand, I will not concede that charging 20% more* in Europe than in the US, for the same product, is ethically sound business in a game with a global customer base. A global game with a global community should have a price standard that is at least close in price in the global market. 20-27% is no where near resembling close.


*34.99Euros is 20% more than 39.99US$. 24.99Pounds is 27% more than the US list price - and that's wholesale.

well, I imagine you did have a choice, you would be given the option to pay by creditcard A, or debitcard B, or whichever other choices were available. If this is not the case then I apologise, but it's a completley separate issue.

You should not have inferred that from the statement, I believe it refers to circumstances under which your account suddenly has no money in it for Anet to take, or you cancel the transaction at your bank.

And lastly this is the way the world is, Im sure the terms are stated somewhere and that there is reference at some point to you being bound to them it would just be very difficult to see or find those terms.


And in reference to some other comments in this thread, paying in another currency in an attempt to bypass unfavourable exchange rates should not be possible (the bank would have to make the conversion at current exchange rates) and would be wrong.

Pounds are hell for Australians...The exchange rate is multiplied by 3. Euro and US are manageable, but pounds is just murder...

What????? They just have to accept it be cause that's the way the world is? Isn't it also possible that no such statement was made in the terms because the people writing the terms assumed that no such technical bug (or feature) would be implemented? I appreciate that you want to take a side and defend them, but saying that we have to accept the world the way it is... well that's just wrong.

There is an entire *legal* market revolving around the conversion rates between currencies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market

Its not wrong. What's out of whack here is that if you live in Australia/New Zealand you are having to pay in british pounds a price that is higher then the actual conversion rate would account for. You could walk down the street to an outlet store plunk down an american credit card which would get charged in Australian dollars and taken out of your American account at the curent exchange rate and still pay less then if you purchased through the ingame store at the unfavorable pounds price.

Would you mind terribly providing a link to the registration page you found. If you read item 5(a) again, it says that by virtue of reference everything on the registration page is included in the user agreement. That's why the rest of paragraph 5 is moot to your argument, and I didn't include it. If it is on the registration page it is included in the user agreement.

The first place I found the policy yesterday (quickly and easily) when you posted about it was in the knowledge base where it is very articulately stated as the payment policy for Auto Assault, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Lineage, Lineage II. But the knowledge base is not required reading before you "sign" an agreement by checking the little box, so I didn't link to it initially.

http://www.plaync.com/us/support/doc_1183.html?prod=49

The billing currency is determined by the address on your PlayNC master account at the time of original account activation. That currency is permanently set. Changing that address after the game account is activated will not change the currency you are billed in.

If the address on the PlayNC master account is in our European billing system, the account will bill in EUR (€). If the address is in the United Kingdom, the account will be billed in GBP (£). Those living in European countries that are not included in the European billing system will be billed in USD ($).

The clue here, however, that it applies to Guild Wars as well is that each territory is billed from a separate system. With all due respect to Chthon, the former programmer, that's why I surmised changing users' currency choice would be a monumental task. Unless the system linked to the store can automatically move you from one server (or event of the program) to another, it will have to be done manually.

A link to that registration section would be really nice. Thanks!

Guys guys.... im Australian.... and a tight arse. But i still cave in to Anet and their sleazy ways. If you dont like what they do, too bad. Its all about $$$ to them and they will and do scam us all to get the $$$. Bitching about exchanges rates will do nothing. You need to NOT give them the $$$ to have power. Only then will they care and go to efforts to make it "nicer" for you to part with your money.

Me? I'll be paying English Pounds on the 31st to get those wank bonus missions. Pretty sure i'll die without them. You win Anet, you win.

I haven't read it through (nor do I have any desire to) but I think this should be the documentation for the peoplesoft module that has the functionality to change the currency for a given record.

considering the source i can only consider that your disapproval puts me in good company.

i think you have already said that on other threads as well.

While I can agree with your point that you should be able to change your currency used to current residency, the truth of the matter is very few people in this community are going to do so. Remember that ANet is a buisness and needs to turn a profit to give use new updates, expansions, games ect... So the most basic of buisness plans must be met here. That is does the developer time to develope and implement said change going to be less then the potential revenue generated by said change. Chances are, in this case, that is not going to be met. Mostly due to the extremely small portion of the community that is running around changing countries and what not.

Plus you have to be able to prove that you have changed countries and are not trying to get the price in american dollars (or other currency) because it will be cheaper. Lots of laws prohibit this kind of thing. I think anet is going on the fact that 99% of people are not going to change residency while playing or buying GW product.

All i know is i live in australia, ive only ever been on the USA server. I have to pay english pounds. Makes alot of sense.

One of the reasons I have been refusing to use the store was that, to my knowledge, they never got around to limiting the number of failed login attempts you can have before you can't try to log in anymore for a while. Failing to implement that means that someone can use a brute-force attack program on your account guessing every password combination until they get it. I don't care if your password is i8r!mp*N(o$f~z/kJ if someone has an unlimited amount of time to have their hacking program guess your password, they will guess it right eventually and then you're screwed. Does anyone who is unfortunately tied to the store know or can you test whether or not they have made a limit on the number of failed login attempts you can have at a time? Both through the game client and the plaync website? It needs to be on both, and I doubt it is yet.

On the issue of currency differences in the store, I live in the USA and one time my credit card number was part of a batch that got stolen from a store's server, and then my credit card was used to buy something from an italian website, and that italian website charged my credit card $1000 in euros. My credit card company not only charged me $1000 but it charged me extra money (currency exchange fee) for paying in euros with my credit card instead of dollars. I did notice the $1000 fraud charge right away and got it removed and I got a new card, yay. Anyways I'm betting all those poor people who are stuck paying in the store with a currency type that they don't ever otherwise use will also get slapped with a currency exchange fee from their bank or credit card company in addition to paying 20% extra for unfavorable exchange rates. Double uncool.

So, the store security sucks, the store is a currency nazi, and the store makes it impossible for people without certain brands of credit cards, or people who live in "blacklisted" regions from even buying anything at all. This means store customers either put their account in jeopardy by shopping at the store, have to pay more than they should to shop at the store, or are denied the ability to shop at the store even if they don't mind risking their account and paying extra. Why does ANet/NCSoft wonder why their store isn't getting as much business as they'd like? It seems obvious.

If this is the case (a posting in the PlayNC knowledge Base), how come my inerface with the Play NC store is in US dollars? Everything is linked to the PlayNC master account and runs through the info on PlayNC, right? Well, while I am logged in to PlayNC, it displays all purchases in US$. If the PlayNC store can do that, there is no reason the InGame store can't.

Also, was this in the Knowledge base 18 months ago when I made my purchase? It may have been... may not have been. That is the policy now, but there was nothing obvious to indicate that as the policy when I made my first purchase. Plain and simple.

Edit: The KB article indicates a date in early 2007. I would have made my first purchase in April of 2006. I really don't think this article was there when I made my purchase. Nor it this informatin readily available to anyone going through the steps in purchasing in the online store.

What about those of us who are from Australia and New Zealand? Why should we be stuck paying in Pounds, which have a very unfavourable exchange rate as well as incurring extra fees from our creditors for the money conversion?

Fair go...

Currency hopping is one possibility, but the exchange rate being used in the online store (24.99 pounds to 39.99USD = .62:1) hasn't been seen since 2003. Throughout 2007, the conversion has been closer to .50:1. Perhaps their market research indicates that the 24.99 Pounds is the price the British market is willing to bear, based on relative wages/cost of living/whathaveyou. That may be all well and good for those living in the UK, but they've attributed these same qualities to a country on the otherside of the planet, with a currency and lifestyle that is nothing like the one for which they've made the basis. The United States was once a British colony, surely we can attribute all things discovered in market research in England to anywhere in the US. That's ludicrous. While I was down south, I was frequently told that the Aussie culture was much closer to that of America than that of England. (like pears are closer to apples than oranges... not the same, but closer.)

So one, they are pinning a healthy sized customer base to a culture and currency that is as far removed from them as penguins are from flight. Two, the currency exchange they are using in the online store is so out of date that if it were a computer, you would have replaced/updated/upgraded it long ago.

I am not saying its fair, i am saying what is common buisness practice and alot of time how laws/taxes are set up. I dont think anyone should have to pay more for any product then smeone else regardless of where they live. Unfortunately thats not how life works.

An excellent question, and, IMO, well worth the extra effort you will inevitably have to extend in communicating with account support if you want an answer to it. Again this is an area where patience is a plus. If you do continue your communication with them, I'd love to learn the outcome.

Okay now I'm really confused. Did you make your first purchase in the in-game store (integrated into the GW browser) or the online store at the PlayNC.com site? The in-game store hasn't been open for 18 months. It's only been open for just about a year. If you made your first purchase in the online store in USD, that should be your currency of choice according to their policy, and the BPS in the in-game store, in that case, should be reversible.

EDIT:

For the record I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding the degree of angst expended on this issue based on a little experiment I just did with today's exchange rate.

The amount one has to spend in the in-game store in order to receive the bonus package:

USD 29 = AUSD 38.26
BPS 17 = AUSD 40.04
Euro 26 = AUSD 41.61

USD 29 = BPS 14.56

The difference between the USD to AUSD and BPS to AUSD exchange rates is AUSD 1.78. The difference between the USD to BPS exchange rate and the BPS 17 minimum purchase requirement is BPS 2.44 (or AUSD 5.75! or USD 4.36!). Holy guano Batman! Is 1.78 really worth all the angst? If so, can we get a boohoo from the British in the house? It seems only fair.

So would I.

Let's see if we can clear up the confussion. I was in NZ when Factions was released. I asked at 4 different software retailers in town if they stocked Factions (the only retailers in town btw). None did. As a result I had to purchase Factions directly from the publisher. So I logged into PlayNC, and purchased a copy of Factions. This was my first purchase through PlayNC and it was done on my master account. If all future purchases are based on the curency of this transaction, and my current PlayNC store indicates US$, I don't know why the GWStore (which uses the PlayNC master account info) is charging in Euros.
Later, with 8 professions and 6 slots, I was inclined to purchase a character slot when they were made available in the new online store. I purchased two in the space of a month. As these were available only through the online store, this must be where i purchased them. Was the currency in Euros for that purchase... could have been (though I'm not sure why if my master account shows Canada as my first location), but I thought nothing of it, as I was in a foreign country, and I was going to have to be converting currencies anyway. Not to mention, the end result of a percent on a $8 purchase isn't much to fuss about - as you pointed out below.

Which leads us to the present. There is a bonus pack being offered. It can only be acquired by making a purchase in teh In-Game store. The only thing in the in game store in teh coming future that I have any use for is GW:EN. Purchasing Gwen in Euros is going to cost me $15 more than it would if I were to purchase it in US$, all things as they are. If I purchase from a local retailer, I'd probably be paying less than the listed InGame store price - but A-Net gets less profit due to middleman, so I understand "no bonus pack for you" for that. However, the PlayNC store will let me make the purchas in US$. PlayNC is a purchase direct from the publisher - not retail middleman, no packaging, no shipping, exact same everything that would be received from the InGame store EXCEPT the bonus mission pack. A-Net gets everything they want (smaller overhead), and I either get charged $15 more, or no "free" bonus mission pack.


If there were more things available to make that bonus pack purchase requirement, you'd have a chance to be closer on target to the "low cost" target. But there aren't. You already have slots, 3 campaigns, and unlocked all skills (like me and many many others), you have no need for anything in the online store but GW:EN. Gaile as much as said that the promotion is intended to motivate people to purchase GW:EN from the online store. So if we are looking at spending we really should look at the price of GW:EN, cause that's what this comes down to.

Buying GW:EN

In US - $39.99 US = $39.99 US
In UK - L24.99 GBP = $50.70 US
IN EU - E34.99 Euro = $48.20 US

These are wholesale exchange rates. When exchanges are made on credit cards, the bank issueing the card will use their retail exchange rate. This is typically a difference of 3-5 cents per dollar(if you are lucky). So purchasing $50 US is going to cost you and additional $2.50 above wholesale exchange rate. Plus, there will be a fee for making the exchange - another dollar or two. So now Customer A in the US is paying their $39.99 for the game, and Customer B, who is located in Chicago - but the online store has him paying in Pounds - is paying $54.20. Not quite $15 dollars difference, but close enough. Yes, there is an actual player in Chicago who is being asked to pay in Pounds. It's a thread in the Questions forum.

$1.72 isn't much to kick a fuss about, but $15 is. To me at least. That's roughly a 25% hike in price.

i agree with the Op. i posted a while ago about the gw store issues and stuff u can never change and of course my posts got ignored. it seems that the same thing happens yet again. it's funny to see that there's 3 pages already and not a single reply from anet. in other threads like the paypal thing, u'd see gaile reply every few posts. nice costumer service anet, really GG.

to everybody else, make sure u didn't mistype your birthday dae wrong on the store thing coz u can never change ur pass again lol.