Beware the "In-game Store"

Actually, that sounds like a very GOOD IDEA! Since NCSoft apparently neither reads these boards nor listens to the representative who of ANet who does, perhaps the only way to get them to listen is to contact them directly.

I doubt I would be allowed to post their address here but they are in Brighton and a quick web search (since they don't post the address on their own site) can easily find their physical address.

CC...

I'm just checking in to see how you're doing with your efforts to get your currency changed in the in-game store, and I see a lot has happened over night. Wow!

I, too, feel very fortunate that ANet has a Community Relations Department and that their Community Relations personnel (at least Gaile in this case) have gone above and beyond to help with problems some of us are encountering with their distributor.

Kudos to Gaile and ANet for this extra effort on their part.

Excellent points. And I'm wondering how the cost of manufacturing and packaging might differ for NCSoft Europe from the cost in the US and if any taxes are tacked onto the process there, during either manufacturing and packaging or distribution... or (perish the thought) both. And since they have to ship overseas to Australia and New Zealand, I wonder if they factor those shipping costs into the MSRP as well?

Has anyone done a comparison of the in-game store prices for past games to see the difference between the territories? I can only tell you what the price is for the PVP Editions of Factions and NF in the US store - $39.99. Since I haven't bought them, I can see their prices, but I can't see the prices of anything I've already purchased. I'd love to know, and I think this kind of information might help in campaigning to have the Europe territory prices adjusted.

I did actually do a comparison a few days ago for Nightfall. I went through the archives for press releases on the Europe and American GW sites, and managed to find the ones that said the RRP in each currency. And guess what. There was a difference in price very close to what we are seeing with GWEN.

In the press release, it said the RRP was being set at 29.99 GBP and 49.99 USD. 29.99 GBP (using the exchange rate currently. At the time I didn't think of checking what the exchange rate was back then, but it can't have been drastically different) is around 60.5494 USD. Alright, so we have a difference of 10.5594. The difference in the prices with GWEN is around 10.7835. Pretty damn close. I'll repeat that that is using the current exchange rates. Since I am too tired and slightly hung over to be bothered to check what they were back around the release of Nightfall, it would be good if someone could check. I don't think there should be any difference.

Now, for the PvP editions. The prices for these are set at 23.99 GBP. So this is equal to 48.8078 USD. So the difference between this and the US PvP editions is 8.8178. Not as close as the differences between GWEN prices and Nightfall prices, but I feel it's close enough to see an unsettling trend here. Maybe it's to do with taxes and whatnot. I don't know enough about taxes in different countries. But I wouldn't think that the difference would be more than a couple of dollars.

Anyway, I think I might bring this up with NCSoft Europe. I'll submit a support ticket in a couple of hours, but right now, I am starving.

Price changed from 19% tax to 7%: 26 Euro/1.19*1.07 = 23.38 Euro
Convert to USD: 23.38 *1.46 = 34.13 USD
So even with the same taxes Europeans would still pay 5 USD more.

I'm sorry Gaile, but we're not in Britain either.

And I'm afraid that I am with Onarik Amrak in being completely unappreciative of being lumped in with Pakistan and Namibia in the currency department. It's not being anti-third world, but we DO have a strong currency of our own that is Internationally compatible, UNLIKE a place like Namibia. Our concerns are legitimate, and it would be nice to have our concerns taken seriously, rather than you making jokes that you think won't offend us because you "know Australians."

While you may not be the right person to talk to about this, you are the only person who posts here and helps us out. We apologise if you feel that you're being targeted as the scapegoat for things that you can not change, however I simply don't think that taking our situation lightheartedly helped our, or your, cause.

Well I did giggle a bit over the The reference to other countries...Note not all the currencies refered to were 3rd world.

And even if they were it wasn't so many years ago that our politicians over here in Australia were refering to the countries economy as a Banana Republic.

So we've done a bit better in the last ten years but thats only based on the fact that other countries with developing economies have needed the minerals etc that we are lucky enough to have.

In the end all the carry on is seems to be about a maximium difference of Aus$8.50 between EB's price and the online game store price....For this extra $8.50 you get the bonus pack...

So I can't really see the difference between the extra I pay for the collectors edition and the extra I'll pay for this online.

All in all what can you really buy for $8.50 and is it worth so much bitching?

But why should we have to pay more? And it's not just one person, or even a handful. It's everyone in Australia and New Zealand who want access to the, supposedly, free bonus pack.

Also, it's not just for the purchase of GW:EN, it's for all future purchases as well. Would you like to be paying a premium for every purchase from now up to and possibly including GW2? I wouldn't.

It's not the fact that it's a one of $8.50. If that were the case then I would have absolutely no issues with the annoyance of having to pay in pounds.

This is however a small amount added on to absolutely everything we purchase from the online store. There are going to be things that are added on to the site for purchase at a later date for which we will have no choice but to purchase from the OLS. If we are charged between $2-$10 extra EVERY time we are forced to purchase online, it will start to add up. It's not just about $8.50. The effects are far more far-reaching.

I think a bigger issue is being side tracked here. It's not exchange rates that you folks should be worried about.

A post with "beware the in-game store" should be addressing the larger problem. What they don't tell you, is that if you go ahead with any purchase from their online store (which they have been pushing harder than Pepsi commercials in the 90s), your screwed.

How?

You will not be able to change the login user name ever again (the e-mail address). Sure, you can change the e-mail address associated with the PlayNC master account, but you're screwed for changing the actual guild wars login ID. Why is this a bad thing?

There is a major security flaw in how guild wars logs a player in. If an attacker doesn't get the user name right, it tells them there is no record of that account. If an attacker gets the user name right, but the password wrong....it tells them the user name is correct!

Once an account's user name is known, a 13 character password can be cracked in hours, using rainbow tables. HOURS!

That same account can be breached in minutes if it's a simple password.

Alright, as others have said, it has nothing to do with how much extra money Australian, New Zealand and European customers have to pay. The fact of the matter is that for us, the bonus mission pack is not free. We're paying $8.50 extra. But for the US players (apart from those people that, for one reason or another, their account is set to pounds. But Gaile says that NCSoft can change this setting given a good reason, and is looking into that) they get this content free. Simply because, for some reason, GWEN is priced higher in Europe than it is in the US.

This is definitely an issue. There are a lot of things that could be tweaked to make security more tight, but to be honest, I am more concerned about the fact that I am definitely going to get charged more for GWEN if I want to get additional, supposedly free, content, than I am about the possibility of some nerd somewhere guessing my email, then spending hours trying to force his way into my account on a game.

Yes, there are issues with the online store and account security. But I think a more important issue is that thousands of players are going to get ripped off if they want to take advantage of a promotional offer. This isn't a direct problem with the online store. It is a problem with the prices set by NCSoft Europe. However, since this promotion is only offered through the online store, this is related to a problem with the online store.

First, Thanks again Gaile, for speaking on my behalf.

Update:

Five days had gone by sinc eI heard anything from support. When I checked on the ticket, I noticed it changed from "critical" to "in progress." With the change in status, but no note, I was inclined to ask for an update:

That was responded to with:
And just before 5pm today:

In the end they changed my currency to reflect my region. I'm not entirely sure what lesson to take from this experience. Is it...

1) Perseverance will bring rewards.

or

2) The squeeky wheel gets the grease.


I would still really like to know one thing. If changing a persons currency to match their region of residence is supposed to be a simple matter of contacting support, why was the request first ignored, and then denied? Why did it have to escalate to heated words, supervisors, and public debate?

Gaile gets an A+ for her efforts, but I can't see fit to giving support a passing grade. Over the course of this issue, I've seen many recount exchanges with support where initial responses have little or nothing to do with what the customer was asking about. If it is policy to reset a location on reasonable request (ex: I live in area A, you take money in currency A, can I please be charged in currency A), why are support agents saying this can't be done?

I understand that they wouldn't want a barrage of people asking for a currency switch everytime a new product is released, but that wasn't the case here. From what I've seen lately, it would appear that the knee jerk response of support is to turn people away, even if truning people away means making false statements. As Gaile pointed out in the PayPal survey thread, reporting false information can greatly damage one's credibility. And support system that lacks credibility is only going to result in clients constantly questioning every reply that comes out of support. That can't be good for anyone.


In short: I got the end result I hoped for, and I'm pleased with that. I am displeased that so much effort had to go into accomplishing something that was supposed to be "simple."

Though my personal issue has been dealt with, I am still concerned about those in Europe who are being charged 20-25% more for products than North American customers. By extension, I am also concerned about the folks of Oceania (I've come to identify with Aussies and Kiwis since my stay down there). Has anyone made any efforts in contacting Support in NCE? If so, how have they replied in regards to the 25% price hike for those in the European Market (whether located in Europe or not)?

Beyond the first token reply they gave me and the 2nd one. No.

I even sent another ticket on Friday, didn't get anything back that time.

I'm about to throw in the towel. But at least I nailed Gaile with that baker analogy.

Try and think of it like this...

Price for GW:EN in the US = $39.99
Price for GW:EN in the UK = $50.70

That's more than a 25% price hike. For the same product. The exact same product. With no packaging or shipping costs. Just an email with an alpha-numeric key.

So, if your parents didn't instil in you intelligent spending practices, than a 25% price hike should be of no concern. For the rest of us, being asked to pay 25% more for this purchase, and every purchase in the online store, seems a tad unreasonable.

What can you buy for $10.71 US? Well, whenever I'm asked to pay more for something, I tend to put it in terms of food, or rent (as these are basic essentials). For that amount, I'm pretty sure I can buy

one loaf of bread = 1.50
some cold cuts, (bologna or Ham) = 4.90
a head of lettuce, = .98
and probably two or three tomatoes = 2.20

That's sandwiches for a week (a 5 day work week). Maybe these things cost differently at your grocery store, but that's about what they cost here. And that's not even going to the "thrift" store to buy the cheap stuff.

So, people in Europe are being asked to pay the equivalent of 1 week's lunches over what people in America are paying. Not to mention the people who aren't in Europe and are being made to spend the European way. But I suppose that's all well and good. People in Europe are notoriously overweight anyways. After all, there are tonnes of documentaries popping up all the time about obesity in Europe, and how it's ruining their health and their health care system. Cutting back on a few meals is probably all for the best.

I made a plea to NCSoft, but am still awaiting a reply...

Pamelf -- Please keep me up to date. This isn't expressly "my turf," but then, I never let turf barrier stop me from advocating for you guys. (Plus I really like the Support Team members, and we get on together great.) So just let me know what you learn.

CC -- good report. I'm forwarding to a co-founder tonight.

I want this process to be, truly, simple, if justified. We can't have everyone in a territory "price shopping" and jumping territories, but we do need to make it a prompt and painless switch for those who require it.

Thanks again.

I submitted a ticket explaining this problem to NC (Aussie, on Us server paying in pounds in the in game store) and then received a bunch of emails back.

They shuffled my email up one level.
Then they shuffled it to the supervisor.
Then they shuffled it to a different section.
They shuffled me up one level.
Then they shuffled me to NC Europe.
They shuffled my email up one level.


My email is trapped in some sort of bizarre bureaucratic time loop. What awesome support, I'm awaiting my call from Bangalore any moment now.

I hope it is useful. This process was less than soothing for me, and if we can make it so others don't experience the same grief, it will be worth it.

Agreed. Having people hopping territories for improved pricing would create a mountain of administrative work that would dwarf Mt. Baker (we can see that sucker from Campbell River). Mind you, if the prices in the various territories were balanced, there would probably be a lot less to worry about. Just food for thought.

Again, thanks for the extra effort you put in on my behalf.

Alright, well I sent in a ticket this afternoon (around 2 pm Brisbane time). This is the ticket:

And I got a reply surprisingly quickly, but nothing too promising yet. Here's the reply:

So, nothing too exciting yet, but I'll keep you guys posted.

Very much on topic:

As you know, my in-game store was changed to US$ yesterday. Well, with today's update, I thought I'd give it a second look (actually hoping that the pre-release would be for sale). Imagine my surprise to see prices listed in all three currencies. So, folks in Aus and NZ, check on the prices in the in-game store. See what currencies are showing for you. It could just be me, but it would be worth while for folks to check.

That is fantastic! I am actually lost for words. To be honest, I didn't expect anything to be done, but it looks like something we did was right. I'm still a bit skeptical. I'll have to wait till I try to purchase something (I believe that the prerelease pack is getting released in a couple of days time) to find out whether I can actually choose to pay in any of those currencies.

There is still the problem with the European pricing, but unfortunately I don't think they'll change the price so close to release. Especially after there would have been so many preorders from stores already.

Anyway, thanks everyone. Those who took the time to let NCSoft know about the concerns with the store, and those of you who took an interest in this matter, even though it didn't affect you in the slightest (mostly any US players who showed their support, even though they were already getting the game at a reasonable price).

The prices are listed in multiple currencies, but when you go to the checkout you're still locked into sterling.

Yep I noticed that. A step in the right direction, but actually does nothing to change the currency.

Yeah, I was afraid that was gonna happen. But then again, I see no point to showing the prices in all currencies if you can't choose the one that suits you, so maybe they will end up changing it to be able to make the choice. Onarik Amrak is right. It's a step in the right direction. They just need to make one more step.

When it comes to money it about following the laws. There are taxes to be paid for every purchase you make depending on the laws of that country.

Anet could run into a lot currency exchange rates if it didn't lock you into using the currency of where the game copy originated from.

Always remember one thing: Companies always provide customer support "within reaason." Within reason for any company is how much it affects their bottom line.

They should have warned people ahead of time in any case.

An update on the submitted support ticket.

My original inquiry pointed out the differences in the pricing of games retailers (which in AU EB holds exclusivity) and the online store and to see if I could get my account changed to $US which is more favourable and makes much more sense fiscally.

After playing tennis with my ticket, which was:

Original ticket was escalated to senior support, who submitted it to a different section, who submitted it to their senior support who forwarded it to NC Europe who submitted it to their senior support who then forwarded it to their Accounts section who then passed it to their senior support.

I received a reply that didn't explain anything I didn't already know from Senior Account Support of NC Europe.

I noted that they completely sidestepped my inquiry to change my account billing currency. I seriously doubt anyone will "continue to look into the situation" as they offered no explanation as to why they could not or any solutions and had considered the matter closed.

I then replied asking that because NC Europe handles distro in AU why the price on the online store is different from EB Games in AU. And re requested the billing change. I am awaiting their further reply at the moment.

What you are requesting is different than what CC was requesting in the initial post. You live in Australia. Australia is a distribution point for NCsoft Europe. NCsoft Europe determines prices for all areas to which they distribute, be that physically or digitally. Any purchase from the areas that the publishing office serves is translated from your currency into the local currency, which is this case is British Pounds Sterling.

Unfortunately, your territory will not be switched simply to lower your price; you cannot "shop around" between territories to get the most advantageous pricing. This would prove harmful, as the money that you pay helps defray costs in the area that serves you. (A portion of the proceeds from each sale pays for Technical, Account, and Billing Support along with other costs, in addition to the costs of developing the game.)

To explain further: You should request a territory change only if the currency for the territory in which you are living is not reflected properly and/or translated or exchanged appropriately on the in-game store options. As explained in the emails you were sent, the exchange was made appropriately, as Australia, served by NCE, pays in Pounds.

Here's an example: You live in Canada but for some reason are being offered non-North American prices. Knowing that you are served by the NA offices, you can ask a switch to your local (NA) currency and it's done. But to say "I don't like the prices in XX, and want to pay in YY" is not an option.

And yes, the prices in all territories may vary. There will often be differences between stores, and between the in-game store and the retail store. You should make the best decision for you as to where and how you make your purchase.

Well there you go, so the word is that AU gets screwed in the in game store and have to end up paying more to get access to GW:EN and the bonus mission which then work out to be not free at all.

That does not seem right nor correct in my mind.

If nothing can be done someone should at least pass this to their marketing arm and make sure in the future they can work out a reasonable solution to this.

That kinda seems like what they said they would do here:

I read that quote as saying, we recognize that the prices aren't equal in the current currency market. We'll keep that in mind for the future. Or at least I hope that's what they are saying.

The noble thing to do would be to adjust the prices to reflect the current market (average for the year so far would be good). But as that does not seem likely, we can at least hope that all future products will bear the world market in mind. Otherwise NCsoft NA will be giving NCE a bad reputation as price gougers. Or the other way around if the market shifts by the time of the next release.

I'm very sorry if anyone is taking this in a personal way. This is not solely an AU issue, you can be sure of that. With only three currencies and hundreds of countries, I'm sure that others would like the option of choosing a conversion rate, but I'm hopeful that with patient and honest explanation, people will see that this is not possible and that NCsoft is doing the best it can to keep things fair and equitable.

I'm really do feel that our publisher will look into pricing and currency conversions in the future. I believe that they do that every time. I will certainly remember this issue and advocate that they look into the matter for future pricing, too.

But please understand: There is a developer, and there is a publisher. Stephen King does not decide how much his books sell for -- his publisher does. REM or Linkin Park or Radiohead doesn't set the price for a CD -- their label does. Please don't imply that "Anet doesn't care." Anet cares, and NCsoft does, too. Ultimately, NCsoft has the decision-making capacities in this matter and I feel sure that they try very hard for fairness and parity in pricing around the globe, notwithstanding the changes in exchange rates and possibly some variances in their publishing costs.

Gaile,
Why can't you let the CC payment take care of the exchange rates?

I regularly buy stuff from all around the world be it in local or foreign currency.

My CC tells me how much foreign money I paid and does an automatic conversion at interbank + a few percent rate

A few percent - but nothing like the disparity between the prices you have.

Just show the price in a currency say dollars and let the payment take care of the currency.

Edit : I know it's NCSoft who sets the prices but this is a no brainer for digital content
Oh and Gaile I can't resist one poke - so it's NCsoft forcing your hand on pricing - who came up with the idea of the exclusive bonus missions being online? NCsoft of Anet? ..... I'm pretty sure it was Anet so I don't buy all the "our hands are tied" lines - if it was purely NCsoft running the store why are you investigating paypal?

When speaking specifically of Gaile, she personally went to bat for me on this issue, and saw to it that it was corrected (after I had already attempted to deal with support and failed in a solution). She also offered to help the other poster "Tempy". She made these offers at 10pm-11:30pm on a friday night, long after her workday had ended. So I have to say that when you say Gaile and A-Net don't care, you're a bit off target. She also took this thread and forwarded it to one of the Co-founders, so that they would be aware of unrest in the community, and the adverse effects that could have on their company.

She has also pointed out that the best place to go to get answers is NCSoft (NCE in this case), as they are the ones that decide on pricing, zones of responsibility, and distribution. A mistake we often make is assuming that Arena-Net and NCsoft are the same company. I think it would be more correct to say that they are two companies that work in partnership. A-Net is the developer, and as the developer they read these sites to see if there are problems with the game, so that they can fix those problems.

Personally, in recent months, I've seen A-Net respond fairly well to various game issues. Particular examples include - SR balancing (harsh at first, but improved after outcry), Jade Quarry bug (this was highlighted with the PvE skills, and promptly addressed), and the auto targetting toggle (toggle option was added within days of the request on these forums). So when it comes to things they have control over - game mechanics - A-Net has been demonstrating some pretty good effort for us.

The problem people are having with pricing and distributing is handled through NCsoft. If I have a problem with the way the butcher is pricing beef, do I complain to the farmer? Do I expect the farmer to do something about it? I should probably talk with the butcher.* So saying A-Net doesn't care would be a bit off target. A-Net has shown that they are willing to help where they can (even when it isn't their department), and directing us to the proper source when they can't. Perhaps your statement would be closer to the mark if you said "You're screwed and NCsoft doesn't care."

If you really are concerned about this, and NCsoft isn't responding satisfactorily through normal avenues (support), the next step is to contact the media. There are tonnes of gaming publications out there, and they have editors. Editors of publications like getting "letters to the editor." Write a letter to the editor outlining the outdated pricing models used by NCsoft Europe (currency values from 2003 are outdated by anyone's standards). Hit the publications in Europe, since that is the source of the higher pricing. The actual exchange fees are small in comparison to the dsicrepency in pricing between the US and the UK. Hit the general Australian Newspapers. Make them aware that some places are being charged more than others, without providing reasonable explainations (aside from general specualtion on these posts, no official reason for the price differences has been given). Site the replies that you've received from support. They will show that you've attempted to deal with the problem directly through the company, and aren't just bellyaching.

Once again, saying A-Net doesn't care is misplaced anger and frustration. That A-Net is even here, listening and responding to what we have to say, is indicative that they are concerned about what we think and feel. A-Net has gone as far as they can with this issue. Those of us who are still concerned about the imbalanced pricing between Europe and North America need to express those feelings to the people who can do something (NCSoft/NCE). If they don't seem to be listening, speak louder and through other means.


*sorry, best metaphor I could come up with on short notice.

I just went searching for information about importing games into Australia, and I learned something that I didn't think about and apparently none of you are thinking about... or if you are, you're not mentioning it.

Australia, at present, doesn't have many game publishers (but that is changing). And since they don't have many publishers there is not much competition among them, so there is not much competitive pricing. Apparently, for that reason, Australians are paying a lot more than people in the US OR Great Britain for many of the games distributed there.

It seems to me then that since NCSoft Europe is not charging Australian players more for Guild Wars than they are players in GB, Australian players are actually pretty damn lucky.

http://blogs.theage.com.au/screenpla...s//004670.html

la

"We cannot change anything unless we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses.

~Carl Jung

and i am sure it was Anet who came up with the exclusive COCO-COLA Asian promotion which pissed off so many people here instead of Asian NCsoft as well.

did you consider that Anet which is owned by NCsoft might tell their owner NCsoft that they (Anet) have had requests for paypal?

were you aware that the ingame store is a portal into the NCsoft system and not a seprately Anet owned and operated store?

that this is why you are forced to link to NCsoft instead of dealing with Anet?

so maybe their hands are tied after all

Fair and equitable for you not for us.
So the publisher, NCSoft, is distributing the physical copy as well.
I'm 100% sure they realise that they are undercharging us at EB!
Perhaps they should re-evaluate EB's price to properly reflect the online store price.

It makes sense since the price isn't going the other way around.

Erm... Gaile, brute forcing is always possible. All we can ever hope to do is to slow it down enough to be impractical. Or, better yet, allow users to completely change all of their login info, and slow down the brute force attack enough that (in the hands of an intelligent user) the login info always changes much faster than the attack can be made.

This is the best news I've heard from a-net in awhile. You may yet see me make a purchase in that store of yours...

you do i hope realize NCsoft has no control over the price the retailer chooses to sell the product at?

or since you make a statement like that maybe you truly do not.

they are choosing not to undercut the retailer by lowering ingame store prices.

i save 10 dollars US by using the store as it is.

Good for you. YOU save money. Australians do not. Amazing how that works out , huh?

For me it looks like that Australians/Europeans loose, no matter what they choose.

The cost of manufacturing and packaging is not measured so much in cost of materials as much as it is in cost of labour.

Draw your own conclusions from that.