The event has been ruined by leavers

Your saying leavers are a minority, that they are the smarter ones. The fact that they are the minority means simply that we, the people not leaving, are the majority and therefore your outvoted and the arenas need to be changed. You don't want to see them changed on a small amount of evidence, i'm fine with that, we'll let a few A-net people go in there for a day and witness the constant leaving, that should give them enough evidence hm?

I really hate quoting long posts like these and only replying with a minor bit myself, but I don't see anything in there explaining why leavers do not go to TA.

Right now, I'm not so much blaming the players (apart from those who leave because I have a non-english name or ranger secondary), but more the game design. The fact that it's advantagous to leave and "reroll" teams is flawed. Right now, RA is basically people who leave until they get in a good team versus people who had a guy leave versus the 'random' teams that stick it out and give it a try anyway. RA will only work as intended only if everyone plays just for some light-hearted fun. With titles, hardly anyone does. Most people think it's pointless unless they get 10 consecutive wins.

And I still don't agree to the "it's random and that includes 4v3s, deal with it" notion. It's leavers who are not accepting that it's random. It's like playing poker and just leaving when your cards are given every time until you get a flush, or rolling dice and only making the sixes "count".

You know 10 wins shunts you to TA right?

Dreamwind and Sheendaar and all leavers will come to this defend their right to leave (i.e. to be lazy antisocial jackassess) and destroys other's fun.
As in any scammer thread, there are scammers coming saying that's the fault of their victim not being able to avoid the scam.
Same kind of behavior.
Same kind of punishment needed.

Leavers are just acting logic in the system where you need 10 consecutive wins to get a reward. It's not that hard to understand. You don't need all this blahblah about fairness, randomness and how the world would be a better place if everyone would put a flower in his butt, - people are just acting egoistic and that's good, because you can predict how the majority will act.

Think about it: Would the problem exist without gladiatorpoints?

Why do people keep telling him to stop posting threads like this? If no-one complained then A Net wouldnt be aware there IS a problem and people ARE annoyed by it. If its a simple case of not wanting to read threads like this the thread was labled VERY clearly, I knew what it was before I opened it so it would be simple to avoid.

I believe there are many simple solutions to leaving in RA and none of them involve playing a monk or another arena. I also believe leaving to find a monk is completely against the spirit of the arena and should be discouraged. Telling someone to not post threads like this is counterproductive, the louder people are the more likely A Net will take notice. 8vs8 vs 6vs6 anyone? Forums have many purposed, in the GW universe one of them is a way of communicating with the people who make our game, so we can tell them what we want.

Back on topic, I don't see why a cooldown timer for leavers is such a hassle, MANY other games have one and it's usually not a big deal. The same with afk kicking. If you leave a match because of a RL emergency I don't think you are going to mind too much that you can't enter again for 1hr, or even 15 mins. These are simple solutions which many people wouldnt like, but many would, same with everything. A Net hasnt even tried any of them so I say we don't need less of these threads, we need more!

If people acted logic they would to go TA for glad point farming because there they are guaranteed perfect team (whihch is main exsuce of leavers, but what they dont tell you is that they prefer RA for glad point farming because it takes minimal skill unlike TA. You know its true when you get 10 consecs with motivation para).

QQ more.

If there's no monk on my team, I leave.

Simple as.

cant expect much of RA, that place is tained-_-

That would increase the number of leavers if anything....

Wow this is like the 5th "leaver" thread in the past two weeks, did we really need another?

If they really wanted to fix the "problem" then they should give Glad points for every single win, extend the amount needed for each title. and convert everyone's current Glad points to the new system at like a 50:1 ratio or something like that. If the game rewarded every single RA win with progress on the Glad title then people won't leave so much since as it stands there is no point whatsoever to RA other than getting Glad points and there is zero chance to get one with a bad team mix or with horrible players on the team.

However, as thing stand it is unfair to blame the leavers for not wanting to waste their time for no reason with horrible players. Non-leavers/horrible players could always go to TA themselves if they insist on having allies who do not leave. So suggesting that leavers should go to TA yet those who hate leavers so much not taking their own advice, is unequitable.

Then why play RA?

And secondly, if you can't win in RA without a monk you need to practice more.

Could someone please answer my question as to why these people don't go to TA and just form their own party? :(

Edit: oops, beaten.

zwei2stein answered this a few posts ago.

Because they would actually have to know how to play in TA.

Because it's much easier to get a gladpoint in RA. Compitition is harder in TA and you need 3 other players you know.
You don't understand this, because you obviously don't play the game. Sure you can win 1 or 2 games without a monk. However, if you face another team with a good monk you are screwed and will most likely lose the game, therefore not reaching 10 wins and wasting time in the first place if you don't look for a team with a monk.

Obviously there is a reason, *why* people prefer to play in RA to get their gladpoints and all you moaning "Why don't you go to TA" won't help anything. People do whatever is the most efficient strategie to reach their goals.

At a time like this a problem that requires time and/or resources will not be addressed. It's time to accept that.

couple of things

1stly it wouldnt be so bad to sticky this thread just so everyone could vent their rage in the same post without spamming up the whole forum with the exact same posts
2ndly playing monk does not guarentee people don't quit I ran numerously as a monk for a while and still noobs did rage quit for no apparent reason.

monks do not solve the problem of rage quitting noobs only lessons it :P

That's my point though, it's dodgy game design when that is the most "effective" way of grinding titles. It makes title farmers cause an annoyance to us who are there just for fun.

Believe it or not, some of us actually play RA for a quick no-strings-attached match. Of course it's fun to win, but the majority of the fun just lies in actually playing. Winning 4v3's or losing 3v4's is however *not* fun, and it gets under our skin when it happens for half an hour straight - it takes the "quick casual match" out of what RA used to be. That's why some of us want an alternate RA without titles or something.

I go to TA sometimes, but more often than not I just don't have the time nor desire (nor enough enough skills unlocked) to organize a team. I wish I could just go to RA, enter match, play a few 4v4's, and leave. The occasional leaver doesn't bug me, but the sheer amount of leavers currently just makes it a time sink. I got a glad point yesterday because 7 of my opposing teams had a leaver. It's just dumb.

I'm all for Anet going in and realizing there is not a big problem. This issue is still grossly overstated by a few individuals who want to cause noise over nearly nothing.

As for the minority majority statement, well look at the amount of people in RA. A LOT. It is probably the most popular form of PvP. And only a fraction of them are sitting here complaining. They all continue playing. Go figure.

Again with the name calling. Notice how nearly all of the name calling is coming from people who want bans in RA? Coincidence? Nevertheless, you say leavers are destroying your fun, well guess what? Bad players on bad teams ruin my fun. I don't see your point.

OK NOW ONCE AND FOR ALL I AM TIRED OF THE RIDICULOUSLY BAD TA ARGUMENT. It has been shut down so many times and I am sick of repeating all the reasons why it is a crap argument. If you are complaing about leavers, YOU GO TO TA!! Nobody on your team will leave there which is exactly what you want!! Stop this crap about RA...RA is fine how it is and still nobody has proven this complaint is worth a damn. Show me hard evidence and get back to me...at this point I am betting that I am more experienced in RA than 90% of the posters here and I see HARDLY ANY EVIDENCE OF A MAJOR PROBLEM. A leaver once in a while?? SURE!! A major major problem?? NO!!

Now for everybody still complaining, go read Relambrien's epic post on the subject that explains the entire thing in perfect detail and just get on with your lives. People play the game different ways and for different reasons. This issue is nothing in the big picture (or even the small picture), and is not even on the radar for Anet (nor should it be).

But by that logic, bad players get leavers because good players don't want to play with them in RA, so bad players should go to TA. Isn't that kinda.. reversed? Wouldn't it make more sense that experienced players went to TA to form teams with other experienced players? Like I said in the other thread; if RA isn't the place to go to for casual pvp, I don't know what is. I certainly won't get a team in TA as a completely new player with 30 unlocked skills.

I don't agree that "RA is fine because some of us think it is". This would imply that there currently is no issue with lag because only a select few are vocal of it. I know plenty of people who have given up on gw's "casual pvp" because of the grindfest it has turned into. They just don't bother signing up to a forum and complaining about it. The fact that gw has no official forums doesn't help.

Hey, it's not the end of the world. No reason to get worked up over it. I'm not 'threatening' to rage uninstall or anything. I still play and enjoy RA every day.
I'm just saying RA would be heaps more fun (and WAS more fun in the past) if you actually got to play 4v4's in it more often than not, instead of spending half the matches getting free wins or unfair odds.

The major problem with TA is that its in the middle of other better forms of PvP and it has no incentive to play. Most experienced players who have 4 people handy can easily grab 2-4 more and play an 8 man PvP format. What is the point in TA if you can organize a team? It has no benefit whatsoever.

Now the entire point of RA is to have some fun fast PvP with no organization involved, but people have fun in different ways. While some people will go in to mess around, test builds, play a quick game or two, or what have you... some others will have fun simply trying to win even in a casual setting, and the team is a part of that. Its just a situation where people play for different reasons.

Now those two conflict of course, but its not extreme as people claim here. I was just raging at the "go to TA" argument because I think its so horrible. People are in essense saying "we don't like how you play so go somewhere else".

Yea I just raged at the TA argument which I still think is bad. I enjoy RA as well and THAT is the reason I don't want these ridiculous changes. I enjoy 4v4 as much as the next guy...I don't like 4v3 or 3v4 or any number disadvantage on either side. I like good fights while trying to win...one sided smashings teach me nothing. That is why I prefer to have a capable team when I face another capable team.

Then guess what ? Your a n00b. Any half decent player knows that your better off if you stay for one match irregardless if you have a monk or whatever, so that way you can see what the team your in actually has. A monkless team with complimentary builds is just as likely to win glads....if not more.

About half my glad points are in RA, the others in TA. Their have been tons of times were I got a team, we got no monk, some random scrub on our team left and we won 3v4...going on to get a glad point with no monk.

And to top it off, leaving is rude and selfish. So not only is leaving until you get what you think is a "balanced team" ( bullshit in ra ) illogical and n00bish, but it also makes you a jerk.

Fail @ life.

/uninstall nao.

Everyone who is on here defending leaving in Random Arenais wrong. Period. Look up the word. It is silly to try to get the perfect team by leaving and restarting again and again and again. Think about the ppl who are on that team. They may not have a good chance of winning or they may. Maybe they are newbies and are trying to get a feel for PvP and all they see is half their team leave before the fight even starts. If you are so "Uberleet" why don't you take it to TA where you are sure to get the team you want. Because you probably suck and wouldn't last 1 match there. So take your spanking on the team you were dealt and get on with it. You can always leave in between fights if you have to. Stop ruining other ppl's fun because it isn't the team you wanted. Maybe they came for the element of Randomness.Something about the name of the area..............what was it again?...........Oh yeah.............

Easy way to fix RA is to remove Galdiator title track. Hence, no need for people to farm, and look for a team possible to make a winning streak of 10 matches = No more leavers.

That title track is a joke anyway.

No, PvP is ruined by game imbalance. If you consider RA isn't a serious PvP place, then leavers, who take it as a serious PvP place, ruin it.
You can't use your argument here: If you consider RA as not serious, then there is no incentive to leave, you want to play and not to win. Actually, that's leavers who takes it seriosu, not anti-leavers.

That's here you're wrong. If people were unaffected by leavers they wouldn't complain. Sorry. You conveniently hide or minimize the fact that early leaving wastes 3 other's people time. You get your fun AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER's TIME.
Leaving after 1-30 is not whjat anti-leaver condemn. You have the right to leave if your team doesn't suit you, as long as other people had their fight.

But yet they do. They don't want to, but they do.

Taking a RL example, would be considered as noobish for many here, but I follow you with RL examples. Take the Minamata bay example. Or Exxon Valdez example. The companies didn't want to pollute and kill people and entire ecosystems.They didn't even wanted these havoc happen. But it happened. Leavers don't want to take into account the damage they do. They only take into account their own fun, even if they ruins other's one. I don't care if a guy pursue a glad title. As long as he's not destroying other's fun. For in-game example, that's not a crime to want to become rich in GW. But when you start to scam others to reach your goal, that's an issue.


You'll have to bring statistics. Because I pawned teams with a monk fairly easily. Additionally, in RA, not only monk can heal. Rits, and some gimmick dervish can, too. Everything relies on players skill. A healing monk in my team? useless.


Let's see, 3 people in a team satisfied against 1 leaver dissatisfied forced to go in TA to have its dream team and learn to play. I take. That's democracy.
There was a poll on putting a temp ban on leavers. Try to find it and guess who was the more numerous ? Anti or pro-leaving? You get it. Anti-leavers.

Leavers don't take this issues seriously at all. The only ones I see complaining here are anti-leavers.

They can simply leave all the same. They lose about the same amount of time as the leaver...which is about 5 seconds. So what?

I could care less what the other players do. They play the game as they want to play it. This is almost like me saying "the other 3 players are crap and they probably get pleasure out of being bad".

I've decided all real life examples don't show at all what is happening in RA and are just meant to make a point seem more serious than it actually is.

I don't need statistics. Its common sense if you play in RA with any consistency that not having a dedicated healer makes it VERY difficult to get consistent wins. Its possible but not probable. I would easily bet anything on that.

Please...the next person that says "go to TA" is major flamebait who didn't read any of the previous posts.

Link? And even if you find the link I'm willing to bet it was a completely biased poll that can't be taken seriously. In order to get a serious poll on this you'd have to do a lot of research...because quite frankly...HA got changed to 6v6 on one of those polls and look how that turned out. (Bad for those who don't already know).

EDIT: DreamWind ninja'ed me. Anything redundant is a result of that.

It would appear that my post has fostered some discussion on the values of both sides of this argument. I'm happy to see that, because threads with just one side complaining about the other side tend to be a waste.

Like I said earlier, I can understand how both sides feel in this situation. I've been on both sides, and I've always had the ability to see merits in all sides of an argument. Thus, I think it best that I refrain from debating too much more in this thread, or else confusion from my opinions is certain to erupt.

That said, please continue debating on this. I don't want to see this thread locked due to flames, as it can offer some ideas into how to try and mediate between the two sides of leavers and non-leavers.

I want to see discussion about how to do this, I really do. Removing glad points from RA is an idea, but of course that idea must be backed up with evidence that it actually will work, and doesn't just shun one side entirely. This is the sort of discussion I want to see: objective viewpoints and proper examination of ideas with minimal flaming and ad hominem attacks.

As an example, I'll respond to an above post, which was in response to my earlier post.

This is an example of a logical fallacy called a "straw man." In a straw man, you misrepresent the opponent's argument to make it easier to attack. You, glountz, misrepresented my argument by trying to make it appear as if I was saying RA wasn't "serious" PvP. I said nothing of the sort, only that RA isn't PvP in its -entirety-. The argument that PvP is being ruined by RA leavers is laughable because RA is only a small portion of PvP. Thus, my argument that PvP is not being ruined by RA leavers stands.

Here, you try to refute my argument that leaving often does not change what the outcome of the battle would be. However, you offer no evidence in your favor. You are essentially saying, "Well you're wrong. Leaving makes the team lose when they would have won but I have no evidence to support that." Leavers do what they do because they feel that the team they are on has a very low chance of victory. If you get a mending warrior with 5 defensive stances on your team, he's going to be pretty much useless. That's more or less 3v4, and as you yourself say, 3v4 almost always results in a loss. Somehow, I don't think a leaver would affect the outcome of this match.

Here you say that as long as the team gets their fight, it's fine to leave. Well then, if all you care about is the fight, what's the problem fighting 3v4? Someone leaving doesn't affect your ability to fight; you're the only one in control of your character. People can "have their fight" regardless of whether or not they have a leaver. It's their choice whether they want to fight, and theirs alone.

They don't want to take pleasure in making you lose, but they do? Does that even make sense? Of course, if you're referring to just the loss, then what you mean is "They cause a loss, even if they don't want to." I'll assume that's what you meant. You said that as long as the players get their fight, the leaver has his right to leave. You curiously omitted anything about winning, just fighting. So why is it you would care about the leaver making you lose? You are inconsistent.

There is a difference between these situations which results in them being incomparable to one another. In the Minamata Bay or Exxon Valdez incidents, the companies had -nothing to gain-, and what occurred were -accidents-. In the leaver's mind, he knows that even though the team he left had a low chance of victory anyway, his actions made it even more likely. In this case, it's an unfortunate side effect, not an accident. Your argument is therefore invalid.

You say that leavers only take into account their own fun, even if they ruin that of others. But you say you only want a fight. Once again, leaving does -nothing- that prevents you from fighting, so by your own words, you should have fun regardless of what happens with a leaver. You still get to fight.

You committed the -exact- same fallacy that I pointed out in the part of my post you quoted. This is called a "biased sample," where you only take into account certain situations in order to make your argument seem better or more favorable. You say, "I pawned teams with a monk fairly easily." Didn't I -just- say in the part you quoted, to "look at all the times you've -lost- to a team with a Monk"? You're only taking into account the times you've beaten a team with a Monk, and ignoring the times you've lost.

Next, of course not only a Monk can heal. But Monks are by -far- the most effective for the task. Now of course you could compare a Monk with just Orison of Healing to a Rit with Wielder's Boon, Vital Weapon, Spirit Light, etc., but then you're trying to say that a bad Monk build is worse than a good rit build, rits are just as effective at healing as Monks. Tell me how that makes sense.

Now, "everything relies on players skill." This is ideal, of course, but if you have someone on your team designed specifically to keep you alive, you can't tell me that won't give you an advantage over a team that doesn't have a way to keep themselves alive.

You do realize that the majority is not always right, don't you? The majority of PvErs want an auction house, but guess what? They're not going to get one for GW1. The majority of players didn't want Soul Reaping nerfed, but guess what? The devs realized that it was overpowered in both PvP and PvE and decided that for the good of the game, it should be nerfed. You seem to claim that the majority of a group of people is always right, but that isn't the case.

And now you can consider this. If a lock-out mechanism is instituted, "leavers" will become "leechers." If they don't like the team, they'll just sit out the battle so that they don't have to go through the frustration of trying so hard and losing. It doesn't change the fact that you still end up 3v4. So don't claim that such a mechanism would force the leavers to play. Once again, they're in control of their character.

Or perhaps even this will happen. The leaver, when he doesn't get on a team he likes, will instantly go suicide into the enemy without even trying to do anything. This way, the battle ends sooner and he can more quickly find the team he likes. Either way, the leaver -still- doesn't help you if the lockout mechanism is put in place.

The general argument against leavers seems to be, "They may not like the team, but because they left, we lost! We could've won if the leaver had stayed!" This is an example of the logical fallacy "Post hoc ergo propter hoc."

In "Post hoc ergo propter hoc," you conclude that because two events happened in sequence, the latter must have been caused by the former. "Because the leaver left, we lost." You fail to note that it was likely you would have lost even if the leaver had stayed.

The argument for and against going to TA has been answered a couple of times already, and I doubt I could do much better. Please refer to those.

Now that that's out of the way, you can see the sort of discussion I would love to see happen in this thread. The way glountz responded to my post was not vitriolic or ad hominem in any way, and instead focused on the argument in a level-headed manner. In response, I created a civil, level-headed rejoinder that once again focused on the argument that does not insult any person. If you all can continue to discuss this in such a way, this thread will not have to be locked, and perhaps a useful improvement to RA can be found.

My original purpose in this thread was to facilitate discussion between supporters of both groups, and it appears I have achieved that. This post is to try and ensure proper debate and discussion. I'll leave you all to keep debating about this, since as I said earlier, it's difficult for me to argue one side too long. If I continue, confusion will certainly arise because it will appear that I either don't know my own opinion, or that I keep changing sides. It's best for the debate if I stay out of any further discussion, for now.

But who knows? I might post again if I see something I need to respond to.

The leavers are not spoiling it for me. I can't even play RA. Lag, Screen freezes of 10+ sec, Error 7 all over the place done it for me.


GG

RA is fun, i have only RA'd twice but had leavers both games.
leavers are a problem everywhere on guildwars, not just RA.
another problem are people who leave because of a single leaver/leecher.
if only 1 player has left, STAY and finish the match!

i can say the same about leechers and leavers in competitive arenas like fort aspenwood. if you have leechers, dont just leave, stay and fight. afterward maybe take a break from the arena so it doesnt get overly troublesome.

one last thing. this is important. players talk very badly about new players and those of us who dont have time to read everything on the sites or play enough to be considered "pro" or whatever. if people go around calling each other names in missions and arena, insulting and belittling players because they do not have the skill these "pro" players Think they have. then nothing will ever change. things will only get worse.

remember we are all "Newbies" on one game or another. so give people a chance to learn the game, help them out with advice and no name calling. that is one way to do things and make friends instead of guild wrecking enemies.

guildwars is not some simple 1 button click game. you have to learn the meta game and the tactics behind every area and monster. this takes time. but if you are calling people "noobs" or "trash" or any of the thousands of flavorful insults players throw at others daily, then dont be suprised when people just up and leave. (its nice to be important but it is more important to be nice.) I never leave a game until the abusive insults start, i didnt buy the game to listen to angry people vent their rage. so i escape!

(Sorry for the long Post)

How about subtracting faction from leavers, or make it so if they leave, then for the next hour they get no faction at all form PvP.

it's their right, Anet allows it, they can use it.
it's selfish, but they have the right to do it.

the one majorly overlooked fact here that the leavers have tried to avoid is that RA is also the starting point for new PvPers. you have to win 5 in a row to get to TA. many people who are supposedly good players of course don't take into account that this is the case. if half your team leaves you'll never get there. leavers are the reason the only PvP I now do is AB, at least the leachers don't have anything stupid to say while they stand there leaching. I got to TA on a random team that didn't have a monk, just decent players on it.(we continued on and got a glad point too). point is though that if anybody had left because of no monk........no TA, no g.p..leavers make it very difficult to just try something new or different. but my arguement actually strengthens their cause doesn't it, they are in RA because it is the only way their suxxor playing style will get them a title. newbs are the only people they can beat

Translation=I have no skills.

I rest my case.

I suggest we all start massively spamming General Chat until they find a solution for it.

No. Everything. Lets start a spam revolution everywhere. In forums, in-game, etc.

Biased staff, biased developers, biased players...

Guild Wars = FAIL

:'(

Months ago I would want to kill the guy who said that, now I'm saying it myself.

Thank you for opening my eyes, everyone.

The event is more favourable for regular TA'ers, than RA'ers.

I can't imagine leavers ever being an issue that will be fixed. A timeout system has some horrible loopholes which could make it unreasonable at times. And let's face it ... RA isn't exactly going to be one of their priorities. Even without leavers it's a bit of a crapshoot still.

Maybe they should reduce the consecutive wins from 10 to 5, maing it more achievable, and therefore less likely that people will leave?

then again that is propbably a pipe dream

people will still leave

Why? It was just on objective report of the situation. RA is not as hard as TA. That's fact. You disagree? What does that have to do with my skills?

Anyone who leaves in RA to get gladiatorpoints faster is acting smart. The problem is the design of RA, not the players.

like what i said on the previous thread on leavers,

Remove the Gladiator title track from RA already.

Agree completely. Remove the title track from RA and the problem is solved.
Only reason why people quit and leave is that they want to restart as soon as possible and enter a team with a monks, or enter with their friends by synchronising... in other words, they are here only to farm Gladiator points.

Remove that, and make RA as it was before, i.e, rewards should be rewarded with bal. factions only. Make the title Gladiator exclusive for the team arena. This not only promotes team arena but it also solves the problem of leavers.

And that goes without saying that this will provides a very interesting pvp system that has been way too neglected already. TA offers much more interesting, and faster matches than HvH. And also, Gladiator titles will at least have a meaning at least.

Thus, new players go through Zaishen ---> RA(earn some factions for skill unlocks for TA) ----> TA ----> HA/GvG

Agree completely. Let the first experience that most players have with pvp (not running around killing npcs) be one not spoiled by farmers.