Paragon/PvE Skills Nerfed again

No, of course not! Shh, you're doing that thinking thing again. This is PvE, it's obviously not allowed here, only the love of horribly broken skills is permitted. Take that using your brain shit back to Glad's Arena. Seriously.

Edit: No need to pretend, tomorrow is caturday... although really, everyday is caturday.

You, sir, made my day!
... Alas, my kitty pictures have disappeared... you can pretend, right?

The point of view doesn't not matter. Whether a player takes part in the PvE or PvP aspect of the game doesn't change the fact that both skills were overpowered..

Yes, lets introduce skills that allow players to steamroll through the game. Good idea! The less thinking the better!

Really? Now we need two Paragons? Is there an unwritten rule somewhere that states TNTF must be up at all times? Because I'm certain that one Paragon works just fine. If your team can't handle the window in which TNTF is not active they should learn how to play then try again.

All I have to wonder is, if balancing the PvE only skills is such a priority, why are they PvE only? Many PvE only skills WOULD be balanced for PvP, and those that aren't could easily be nerfed to bring them down to balanced level... TNTF was overpowered, but it was because Paragons can't get in groups without it. While I don't care too much about the nerfs, I just don't understand the point in introducing PvE skills so that PvE players wont cry over every nerf, then nerfing those skills... makes NO sense at all.

Great. More PVE skills are nerfed to uselessness like my Intesity.

At least monks got a lot more time to have fun with seed of life. I dont use PVE only skills anyway cos my heroes..... well, you know.

Skill Changes
Rebel Yell: armor bonus is now received when taking damage from Charr instead of fire.
Seed of Life: reduced Energy cost to 5; reduced casting time to .25 seconds.

Did someone say GG? How about making it 1...8 second duration for each SS rank (scaling).

Seed of life has been changed to 5 energy but TNTF goes untouched.....sigh........

TNTF needed a recharge adjustment , that's for sure , however ....being situated in leadership , it forced the paragon to split his / her attributes over 3 areas to be effective .

X Spear Mastery
X Command or Motivation ( X = at least 9 req for a max armor shield )
12 Leadership (req for complete coverage of TNTF pre nerf)

Post nerf ...

To allow the paragon to come close to complete TNTF coverage for his / her party would require 16 points in leadership and adding the skill "enduring harmony". In effect , slightly reducing the the damage output of the paragon and having a 2 second gap in TNTF.

Not so bad , but since it requires another skill to be added to the paragons bar and maxing out an attribute that isn't required for a shield or weapon , I think an 18 second recharge time for TNTF would be more appropriate.

Too many of the posts defending the nerf are doing it by suggesting that monks should stop being lazy, get to work, not have everything handed on a one-skill platter. These arguments are valid, but they are vague.

Seed of Life is a specific case. Perhaps it was overpowered before; now it is not useful at all. The question is, "How can we take what was a good idea, and make it useful, but not overpowered?" The answer, "Get to work monks" is a non-sequitur.

Plus, although Seed of Life can be an amazing skill - watching those blue numbers floating in the air in the deep can be pretty impressive - it is nonetheless strongly conditional: it requires a good tank to work well. If you can't focus the damage on one character, then you get no return. Good tanks are hard to come by, and (personally) I have a hard time getting my heroes to tank properly.

Just finished GW:EN with my Paragon, post TNTF nerf. It is surprising, because my build is actually EASIER to use now that energy isn't ever a problem.

So you don´t use Protective Spirit?

How is relying on PS different from relying on SoL?? They are both broken.

Well paragons make good eye candy, thats what I use them for (the guys too!)

You think these skills are now as bad as Intensity? Did you leave your sense on the bus or something... Or should i remind you just how incredibly shit Incoming is so you can compare it to TNTF?

Bhavv is talking about Seed of Life.

/Jebump

Thanks ANet for balancing the skill cost to 5 energy on SoL. Much better.

ANet does listen... Sometimes.

EDIT: Though I'd still lower the recharge time from 25 to 20.

So what? Its a PARTY WIDE heal for casting it on 1 person. It lasts 6 seconds (assuming your using 20% enchantments at least with it unless your a moron), 8 seconds if your using it along with Blessed Aura. Sorry but 5e, 25 recharge, with an almost complete party wide heal is in no way weak, if you can't pick a target thats been pressured then thats your problem.

Those who take Healing Seed? Why? Not only is it actually linked to a stat, by the time you've cast the frigging thing the enemies are either dead, killed your target, or moved on and its no longer needed. The skill now actually requires a little thought as to where your casting it... not just a brainless invincibility skill pretty much no matter where you put it.

I didn't/don't use a 20% enchant with it.
Don't you think that's a little harsh to say people are morons for not using a certain mod/build/skill?
5 seconds with an energy cost of 5 is okay. 25 seconds might still be too long, but at least it's usable again.
I also still think they should have just raised the recharge time and kept the thing at 10 seconds.
Nerf how often it's used, but keep how well it works.
Still, like I said, it's at least workable now.

No i don't. At least if your complaining thats its duration is too short you are. If your not willing to take very simple steps towards increasing its duration you lose all right to complain about it. Its the same with complaining that the chests in GWEN give crappy drops (which was very true during the preview) and all the time your paying 1500 for them... not 1250.

Its duration was so easily abusable. 2 skills. Blessed Aura, Glyph of Renewal. A 16 second Seed of Life, with recharge + cast time it has no downtime. Even if you weren't abusing it that way... a 12-16 second Seed of Life pretty much stopped all pressure.

its 10 mana right now which makes this skill medicore

Game Updates
Costs 5 now.

reduced casting time? LOL there was no problem with the casting time at all....

Are we talking about the same skill? ^_^"
I meant Seed of Life's "mana" went from costing 10 to costing 5.

Also, the new casting time probably is to make up for what Evilsod said:

I was talking about Healing Seed

Did you just seriously compare a skill that reduces damage taken on one (1) person to a skill that heals the entire party every time the tank takes damage? Even better, you think the solution to broken skills is for those who think they're broken to not use them, judging by an earlier post. This is why I don't bother posting in Riverside much, so few people have a clue. u.u

And similarly, I say back to you.

If you honestly think skills like Seed of Life and TNTF were on the level of other skills, then I don't know if you've played Guild Wars.


Oh yes, because it so unbalanced GvG.

There is a reason why only 3 of those skills can be equipped on one skill bar, and even then they cannot be used on heroes.

Oh come on. Seed of Life and There's Nothing to Fear is the PvE equivilent of the original Derv-way and Packhunters during the preview weekend.

This isn't about GvG, what are you talking about. Come up with something useful to argue a point if you want to be taken seriously.

Areas were completable without the skill at all. Adding the skill to players makes the 'epitome' of PvE, an organized group, far too powerful. Skills are not balanced towards pug or hero levels because the highest level of capability of a pug tends towards the capability of an organized team, which is the standard used to tweak skills. Anyone who ran these skills could see that under co-ordination they were ridiculous, unless they were playing blindly.

Another factor is synergy - most 'broken' skills or setups are a result of synergies with other skills. In this case, Angelic Bond is the most notable. Since Bond is balanced as it is, and is not a restricted skill because of the fact it is not inherently designed better than other skills (unlike PvE skills, hence the restrictions placed on them), the more broken partner takes the hit.

The game was meant to be about skill, not time played and all the other things like that. As much as PvE players try to forget it, balance is for PvE too when it gets improperly tweaked. Are you really surprised a grind-skill wasn't kept as the best monk skill in PvE?

I used to run Seed of Life as a wonderful replacement for Healing Seed in my skill bar. For the past few days, I couldn't figure out why the skill didn't seem to work very well. Then I saw the skill had changed, and I was so disappointed.

Seed of Life wasn't like Intensity where the means to abuse it were so obvious that everybody was exploiting it. In an all human--and more importantly--skilled group, Seed of Life could probably make a team "invincible". Maybe. If there was no enchant stripping or whatever. But one thing is for sure: In average player or hero/henchmen teams where aggro goes everywhere; this skill helped cover the lack of aggro control when damage spreads all over the team.

I don't really understand this skill change at all. I thought that PvE-only skills were supposed to be rewards for an incredible achievement. Players must grind for hours to get high ranks in the Sunspear title. Now Seed of Life just looks like any other skill that you could buy from a skill vendor for a platinum.

At mid-levels of the Sunspear title, the skill now provides 3 seconds of protection. In other words, we have spells that have longer cast-times than the total duration of this spell.

Whats amazing about all these arguments is the fact that they seem to missing the whole entire point.....

I find that its pretty sad that TNTF was and still is the only skill that the majority of GW's player-base see as the most "powerful" skill. You can equip ToF, and any elite for that matter, blazing/energizing finale, and itll all be for nothing if you dont have TNTF in terms of PvE pugging or elite area farming/completion. No one will take a second look at you. Is there something wrong with that? I must be missing the picture here....

Despite all the elite skills and core skills the paragon has, the only thing that validated a paragon's use in PvE was a PvE-Only skill? This is whats sad, a PvE skill that finally brought light to the loner paragon is nerfed halfway just about to throw paragons back in the chamber of "useless" professions. Now its back to the ol'blackboard of Necros, Monks, Warriors, Elementalists again.

Whatever happened to diversity? Creativity? Ingenuity? Im not in support of this nerf nor am i against it. I just find it funny that a whole profession that was ignored and "uninvited" became "useful" once again because of a skill introduced not w/ the game or its core skills and elite system but as a grindfest. They say GW pve is dead, this just proves my point that anet introduced these skills to encourage pve play but obviously knew these skills were somewhat overpowered but allowed it to happen to bring in more suckers like me to play EoTN.

The main problem with Paragons, at least IMO, is the vast majority of their skills are situational. So situational that if you take them in a normal team, they will have little to no effect. If you take these skills when the team is build around them, they are overpowered. That seems to be the main problem with Paragons. Instead of finding ways so that they are not overpowered/underpowered depending on the situation, they just nerf the skills down until they are not overpowered in any situation, but utterly useless in a normal situation. Example: "Incoming!". This was a strong elite when it was released, and possibly needed a slight nerf. However, people were abusing it and running multiple copies of it, which required nerf after nerf until it is pretty much useless. Energizing Finale is another skill that was really strong, but had to be nerfed to death. Skills that magnify in power when the situation fits just are not good.

Over half of the Command line of skills need reworked. "Help Me!" is a prime example of a failed skill. Bladeturn Refrain, decent concept, except now it has to compete with the armor cap, and its already situational use.

Motivation, most of the skills require the team to be built around you to be effective. Example: Lyric of Zeal. Could it be useful? Yes. Will a Paragon be able to force the whole entire team into taking a signet to use for this to have maximum effect? Hell no. The new Inspirational Speech? Come on, how is that even remotely worth it? Why you would only add one skill to Motivation, and make it horrible, is beyond me.

Leadership attribute has some decent skills, but it also has some horrible ones. Angelic Protection...spike protection, except it has a 30 second recharge. Hexbreaker Aria, has some potential, but only works for casters, has a high adrenaline cost, and a 2 second activation.

Overall, I believe Paragon is a good profession, and I usually take one with me. However, the ratio of bad skills to good skills is sort of disheartening, and inexperienced Paragons will be horrible, and people who just start a Paragon will be horrible + be left with a bad taste in their mouth.

^^^
I know what you mean. Capt'n Morgahn is always w/ me when i dont wanna for olias to raise minions till the cows come home. This one little paragon can turn a whole grp of squishies including me into a mobile tanking machine. But no one understands my teambuild since my grp is based on one condition.....fire. When up against destroyers, forget it, ill stick to water snares. But to invalidate a WHOLE profession down to a skill that was never meant to be played globally pvp/pve wise is just plain stupid. If we're gonna have pve seperate skills, then every skill should be revamped. Honestly, we have how many hundreds of skills that never even see the light of day on anyones bar because it was pvp "unbalanced". Then you got vice versa where some skills are almost pve exclusive. This is just another sad example of anet not knowing how to encourage ingenuity but just grind, i.e. sunspear points, allegiance faction.

On para skills:
I remember breezing through a lot of areas with 2 R/P and one P/x hero and one hench warrior (mesmer myself).
There are a lot of possible skill combinations which work in such a build.

Alright, First off, Seed of Life is anything but useless. When timed right and cast on a frontliner, this can very effective with a high sunspear rank, which is not hard to obtain.


As for the recharge time, I can see that, because when timed right, this skill was very much over powered.




And what is with people using "Gored Engine" as a curse word? Did I miss something when I went on vacation, or is this just some stupid saying that spread?

i think its RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO ( f v ck) that turns into gored engine

I really don't want to read 200 posts of BAWWWWing about the nerf or desperate attempts to prove it's good. It was nerfed for a very simple reason:

"monk do u hav sol?"
"no, haven't gotten it yet"
"noob" *kick*

Ok let's get back to reality here.

Arenanet would not nerf a skill just because people in certain areas who liked monks to have it did not accept those who didn't. I don't blame them either. The skill is available to everyone who has nightfall and spent five minutes on it. Not getting it would be an act of extreme laziness.


They Nerfed it because it was indeed a good skill. You just need to use it right. Don't complain that it was not good because you couldn't find how to use it correctly and unleash its full power, which is still a massive amount when used correctly even after the Duel Nerf.

It was nerfed because it was so good, it would be practically required on a monk's skill bar. Hardly promoting diversity in skills huh?

Hence the "noob" *kick*

Is that seriously any different than poeple requiring certain builds of profession for certain area or mission? Example, Urgoz. It used to be that a monk without Healer's Boon was a noob. Or a Tank and Imperial Sanctum without Wild Blow. Neither were nerfed because of this.

Arenanet does not nerf skills because of the ignorant mob's personal preferance.

So the angelic leader i first created is slowly being nerfed untill it has the killing and protective power of a warrior wielding a short bow.

Bravo Anet, you've achieved incompetency.

/signed

I found out about these nerfs about 3 minutes after purchasing EoTN... Mother....
WTF?? its PVE!!! Did the Oni's in the deep complained to Anet? Or was it Kanaxai??
I can already see the Onis/Kanaxai holding placards in discontent over SoL... then Anet nerfs it to their hearts content. /sarcasm