Experience with trying to get mesmers in teams has shown, that the more people moan about something the more impression it gives that, that profession is weak.
E.g people say OMG tntf is useless, change it to x y and X. All the majority remember is tntf is useless and by association the paragon is also.
Much better to make new builds and say how cool they are, and how well tntf synagises with them. Always accentuate the positive, and people will remember that instead
Paragon/PvE Skills Nerfed again
Shanaeri Rynale
FelixCarter
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Originally Posted by Darkobra
Sure, if you think healing seed heals enemies.
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Age
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Originally Posted by Avarre
I said attribute points, not time. Balance is based on the specific build and skills in it, not how long you grinded to get the skills, and based on what the skill can do at its highest potentials (examples: spike builds, prot bond). The game isn't meant to be based on time spent, so why should they make a skill that took more time to get more powerful?
Having a skill that could heal a colossal amount, effectively remove all group pressure, and didn't require any attributes meaning it could fit effectively into a build with heal/prot monks made it ridiculous. That doesn't even begin to take into account the effects when combined with bonds or other passive defence. If you honestly think skills like Seed of Life and TNTF were on the level of other skills, then I don't know if you've played Guild Wars. |
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Age
Seed of Life gets it attribute from Devine Favour not your Sunspear Rank and I guess it was PvP that nerfed Protective Bond.It is to bad really as reading jelly's thread was great fun.
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Prot bond was a PvE nerf, I don't know what you're talking about calling it PvP? I was referring to the fact that skill balance was based around skills used at their maximum potential, and those were two examples (prot bond at extremely high prot attrib, multiple skills used for spiking). I gave two examples to show that this method of balance was not dependent on the gametype.
Gein : Go ahead with that mentality all you want, you're causing your own problems. The fact is, admitted by you as well, that better players aren't affected by this.
Lexie_Moonshot
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
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The paragon nerf now only reinforces the stereo type of Bonder, Nuker, Tank mentality unless you have two paragons willing to work together. ... |
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GloryFox
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posted by Avarre Perhaps players should try to improve? |
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SleepyLuxon
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Originally Posted by Lexie_Moonshot
I think its more like, try finding a group willing to accept two paragons
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Lorden
The Game is already ez when your good at, at least Seed Of Life made it so i could satisfy my lazyness and watch t.v. Soon, all the Nerfed skills are gonna put Oscar The Grouch, and Slimey on the street. Home Wreckers!
Dr Strangelove
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Originally Posted by Lexie_Moonshot
I think its more like, try finding a group willing to accept two paragons
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Is it just me, or has guru started to feel like trying to teach vector analysis calculus to a bunch of the dumb, angry kids in high school?
Avarre
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
Now go walk a mile is someone else's shoes. Live by your words, make a Paragon, or Mesmer, or Assassin. Join only PuG's Farm Max SS points after you beat Abbadon. Then come back and tell me what you just said again. Tell us of your treatment.
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Engel the Fallen
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Originally Posted by sindex
I never knew “Seed of Life” could make you team completely and utterly invincible, with an 8 second interval. I thought your team could still get wiped in certain places whether you bring the skill or not. (sarcasm) This skill made DoA such a cake walk. (sarcasm)
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yesitsrob
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Originally Posted by SleepyLuxon
I must be horrible
 I agree its still a good skill but pug mentality's won't know that and think because of a nerf to it that their's no point in bringing it if we could bring a bonder instead. |
Any good group of people worth partying with know as a fact that the Paragon is one of the stronger PVE classes, even before a ridiculously imbalanced PVE only skill.
It is clear that these nerfs are going to affect the poorer player more than the good one. This isn't meant as an insult it's just true. But with these skills people would absolutely never improve, because they quite frankly wouldn't need to. That said it seems common practice to moan about Chromatic Drakes being imbalanced as opposed to actually learning to play.
You have to understand though, for people who do know how to play - these skills took whatever challenge there was left in PVE. In fairness to remove the challenge again just need more buddies to bring TNTF.
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| Is it just me, or has guru started to feel like trying to teach vector analysis calculus to a bunch of the dumb, angry kids in high school? |
On another note - instead of arguing with Avarre, listen to him, because he actually knows what he's talking about, kthx. Even if he is a mezmar lolol
FelixCarter
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
It's extremely rare that I run a PvE group without a paragon now. They're really good.
Is it just me, or has guru started to feel like trying to teach vector analysis calculus to a bunch of the dumb, angry kids in high school? |
Mostly just angry. And noone liked Vector Analysis anyways.
odly
SoL was overpowered.
While lowering the duration they could have kept the recharge and lowered the cost to 5 energy.
Thruth be told, Due to real live frequent interuption I have been using hench and heroes a lot on my necro and the heroes hench manage just fine without SoL andd TNTF in most area's.
But then my heroes do have some other party helping skills as well. (prot spirit and shield of absorption on a SF ele, heal area and healing seed on the other ...)
When I play with a pug I'll gladly accepts a paragon btw. Uber skill or not, If you liked the character enough to stick to it you probably know what you're doing and they can still be very good. After all as long as you have a balance of damage/protection/healing PvE is not to hard in most area's.
PvE skills are the only skills I buy from the heroes skills trainer (I have full unlock) and they are the only skills my heroes cannot use.
While lowering the duration they could have kept the recharge and lowered the cost to 5 energy.
Thruth be told, Due to real live frequent interuption I have been using hench and heroes a lot on my necro and the heroes hench manage just fine without SoL andd TNTF in most area's.
But then my heroes do have some other party helping skills as well. (prot spirit and shield of absorption on a SF ele, heal area and healing seed on the other ...)
When I play with a pug I'll gladly accepts a paragon btw. Uber skill or not, If you liked the character enough to stick to it you probably know what you're doing and they can still be very good. After all as long as you have a balance of damage/protection/healing PvE is not to hard in most area's.
PvE skills are the only skills I buy from the heroes skills trainer (I have full unlock) and they are the only skills my heroes cannot use.
Lexie_Moonshot
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
It's extremely rare that I run a PvE group without a paragon now. They're really good.
Is it just me, or has guru started to feel like trying to teach vector analysis calculus to a bunch of the dumb, angry kids in high school? |
FelixCarter
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Originally Posted by odly
SoL was overpowered.
While lowering the duration they could have kept the recharge and lowered the cost to 5 energy. |
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Originally Posted by odly
When I play with a pug I'll gladly accepts a paragon btw. Uber skill or not, If you liked the character enough to stick to it you probably know what you're doing and they can still be very good.
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Even at the end of the game when I was asking them, "then how did they get this far if they suck so much?"
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Originally Posted by MistressYichi
Wait, wait, wait, You're telling Avarre to go make a mesmer?????!!!! This kids is why you stay in school. Reading Comprehension is so totally hard.
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He obviously didn't read her User Title... I know I didn't. Don't be so quick to jump on people.
yesitsrob
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Originally Posted by Lexie_Moonshot
Unfourtunatly, the majority of gw doesn't think the way you do about paragons
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Racthoh
If you really, really want to, you can run Echo with There's Nothing To Fear! to have it up all the time still.
Omniclasm
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
If you really, really want to, you can run Echo with There's Nothing To Fear! to have it up all the time still.
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Firebaall
lol...
Anet nerfed it right off my monk's skill bar. 10s was long 4s-5s is too short. I guess there's alot of bleeding hearts over at Anet for the PvE monsters.
Oh well, I didn't need it before, and I don't need it after this nerf. Really, why bother with any PvE only skills, if you nerf them to the point that nobody will use them?
If it was the PvPers crying, at least I could understand the backpedal. Not that I agree with it. At least I could understand what was motivating the change.
Anet nerfed it right off my monk's skill bar. 10s was long 4s-5s is too short. I guess there's alot of bleeding hearts over at Anet for the PvE monsters.
Oh well, I didn't need it before, and I don't need it after this nerf. Really, why bother with any PvE only skills, if you nerf them to the point that nobody will use them?
If it was the PvPers crying, at least I could understand the backpedal. Not that I agree with it. At least I could understand what was motivating the change.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by yesitsrob
I cannot believe people think TNTF is now useless, honestly how bad can you possibly be at this game? It is still by far the best skill in PVE.
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Now, we just need Mendes to post in here and this thread will have achieved Gold status.
Miss Eisei
easy way to have nerfed it and still make it usefull
just double the recharge
atm its unuseable imo without blessed aura +20% enchantweapon
and im not even gonna use it with that, say hello to old HS
seriously tho, it was a GOOD skill, yes powerfull as hell
but i thought that was half the point of the pve only skills, and why they limit how many we can have on our bars, cause they are more powerful
but like i said, double the recharge, it was 20, they could have made it 45, i would still have used it
oh and if ur nerfing stuff, whatever happened to "go for the eyes" or "fall back"
u do know they work on minions to right, its like having charge+healing on a bunch of minions with crithit addition :P
yeah yeah all u paragons chase me with ur torches , nanananana *goes 55* :P~
just double the recharge
atm its unuseable imo without blessed aura +20% enchantweapon
and im not even gonna use it with that, say hello to old HS
seriously tho, it was a GOOD skill, yes powerfull as hell
but i thought that was half the point of the pve only skills, and why they limit how many we can have on our bars, cause they are more powerful
but like i said, double the recharge, it was 20, they could have made it 45, i would still have used it
oh and if ur nerfing stuff, whatever happened to "go for the eyes" or "fall back"
u do know they work on minions to right, its like having charge+healing on a bunch of minions with crithit addition :P
yeah yeah all u paragons chase me with ur torches , nanananana *goes 55* :P~
FelixCarter
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Originally Posted by Miss Eisei
but like i said, double the recharge, it was 20, they could have made it 45, i would still have used it
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Andisa Kalorn
It seems to me that this nerf is aimed at how overpowered these skills are in end-game/hard mode PvE areas with human groups. The result is that the skills become useless for the players who H/H. Now, it seems that some of these players are incapable of playing the game without these recent PvE skills. How they managed before, who knows.
But will everyone stop and think about the fate of these players?! How dare Anet make them learn how to play the game without overpowered skills! Especially since their SF-reliance is about to meet a nasty end with the Destroyers! The complaints will be endless!
Honestly, I sorta liked the description of these skills when I saw them. Part of me laments their nerfing because I like the thought of them making things not impossibly difficult. But realistically, heroes have made the game far too brainless already. We don't need overpowered PvE skills. Everything can be done with H/H, or with the help of a friend or two, without any PvE skills at all, except for elite mission areas. And even then they were always doable before the introduction of PvE skills.
Playing on my paragon always seemed really easy even before the PvE skills - that's why she never died. And even with the PvE skills nerfed, she's still far more overpowered than before they were introduced in the first place.
Why is it so necessary to get into pugs anyway? Pugs suck. A good guild will recognize the value of a paragon. Or you can use H/H. Saying a class needs to be overpowered so it can join a pug is completely the wrong way to see it. It's the pug that's flawed, not the class, and no uber PvE skill is going to fix that.
As for the "walk in their shoes" argument: I spent much of summer vanquishing with my mesmer and H/H. I did it without TNTF or SoL. And I'm not that skilled... I know I suck at PvP and I'm fine with that. But back before heroes, when I used to pug... yeah I wished there was some uber mesmer skill that would let me get in easier. Turns out that the class is just fine if you actually play it on your own, and it's much easier than playing with a pug anyway.
But will everyone stop and think about the fate of these players?! How dare Anet make them learn how to play the game without overpowered skills! Especially since their SF-reliance is about to meet a nasty end with the Destroyers! The complaints will be endless!
Honestly, I sorta liked the description of these skills when I saw them. Part of me laments their nerfing because I like the thought of them making things not impossibly difficult. But realistically, heroes have made the game far too brainless already. We don't need overpowered PvE skills. Everything can be done with H/H, or with the help of a friend or two, without any PvE skills at all, except for elite mission areas. And even then they were always doable before the introduction of PvE skills.
Playing on my paragon always seemed really easy even before the PvE skills - that's why she never died. And even with the PvE skills nerfed, she's still far more overpowered than before they were introduced in the first place.
Why is it so necessary to get into pugs anyway? Pugs suck. A good guild will recognize the value of a paragon. Or you can use H/H. Saying a class needs to be overpowered so it can join a pug is completely the wrong way to see it. It's the pug that's flawed, not the class, and no uber PvE skill is going to fix that.
As for the "walk in their shoes" argument: I spent much of summer vanquishing with my mesmer and H/H. I did it without TNTF or SoL. And I'm not that skilled... I know I suck at PvP and I'm fine with that. But back before heroes, when I used to pug... yeah I wished there was some uber mesmer skill that would let me get in easier. Turns out that the class is just fine if you actually play it on your own, and it's much easier than playing with a pug anyway.
cellardweller
The only healing spell just fell of my smite monks bar, no big loss.
TNTF still rocks socks - it was over the top crazy before, its very good now.
TNTF still rocks socks - it was over the top crazy before, its very good now.
odly
I allready thought the recharge was long before. :-(
I also thought the 10 energy was costly.
The only nerf I thought it "needed" was making it not trigger on life bond damage.
bonder + glyph of renewal seed of life was way overpowered. (It could still be good now even if would be on only 50% of the time.)
after all longer recharge won't matter one bit if you're using glyph.
But then you are using 2 very specific builds put together.
It's a PvE only skill it can be more powerfull than others, heroes cannot use it and you need to do some farming to max it out.
My best sugestion would be the shorter duration original recharge, but also less energy cost (5) and fast casting.
Something like :
3-6 sec duration, 1/4 sec, 5 energy, 15 sec recharge
I also thought the 10 energy was costly.
The only nerf I thought it "needed" was making it not trigger on life bond damage.
bonder + glyph of renewal seed of life was way overpowered. (It could still be good now even if would be on only 50% of the time.)
after all longer recharge won't matter one bit if you're using glyph.
But then you are using 2 very specific builds put together.
It's a PvE only skill it can be more powerfull than others, heroes cannot use it and you need to do some farming to max it out.
My best sugestion would be the shorter duration original recharge, but also less energy cost (5) and fast casting.
Something like :
3-6 sec duration, 1/4 sec, 5 energy, 15 sec recharge
Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by GloryFox
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There is a fun aspect to the game that does not need to be Grind and Nerfed just because its easy for you. If its so easy for you just use mending and if someone wants to take Seed of Life as it was let them or don't let them in your group. |
CHunterX
It's sad. I too agree that TNTF, even after nerf, is still the most useful Paragon skill. Lets look at the most widely used Paragon Elite (by my observations): Focused Anger. Sure, 120% or even 160% adrenaline gain is insanely awesome right? Oops, adrenaline gain bonus is capped at 100%, making anything after 10 Leadership pointless. Oops, "For Great Justice!" does the same thing, costs half, lasts half as long, but with a shorter recharge, isn't an elite, and requires NO ATTRIBUTE POINTS. Christ, could it get any worse for Paragons now? I can see the next nerf already: "Go For The Eyes!" Adding a recharge time perhaps?
Sorry for the rant, but the shit that Paragons have gone through is getting old. The skill may have been powerful, and it IS on my Paragon's skill bar, but sadly, I've only logged on as her twice since beating NF, and don't recall using it too often, or the results of its strength.
Sorry for the rant, but the shit that Paragons have gone through is getting old. The skill may have been powerful, and it IS on my Paragon's skill bar, but sadly, I've only logged on as her twice since beating NF, and don't recall using it too often, or the results of its strength.
t_the_nihilst
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Originally Posted by Brianna
Well, the skill IS useless now, when you really think about it.
This is PvE anyway.. Another Junk skill to throw in my trashcan, Just like intensity, seriously useless. Izzy puts PvE only spells into the game but completely rapes them with nerfs, to the point where no one wants them. |
fully, even.
Ecomancer
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Originally Posted by Shadis
Balance in PvE exists, believe it or not. It's meant to keep it from becoming a C-Space Marathon where there is zero fear of dying. Seed of Life and "There's Nothing to Fear!" in their pre-nerf forms were exactly that - You had those skills and you did not die. Ever.
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Avarre
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Originally Posted by Ecomancer
In fact people were surviving long before Seed of Life even existed.
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Really, I'm curious.
Ecomancer
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Originally Posted by Avarre
So why, exactly, does this whole nerf matter?
Really, I'm curious. |
Still curious?
Faer
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Originally Posted by FelixCarter
Who said that's the only skill you should use? Given the proper build, HS is just fine.
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That's simply not "safe", nor practical. It's certainly not a practical comparison of the two. As a pure "tank" heal, it doesn't really matter, because one red bar is really easy to push up. Pushing eight up though in mere seconds with minimal effort? Healing Seed can't touch that.
On a different note, Avarre is the Queen of Mesmers. You may all take that as you will, but it will always remain true in my heart.
JoeKnowMo
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Originally Posted by Avarre
So why, exactly, does this whole nerf matter?
Really, I'm curious. |
I would prefer the skills were nerfed when intensity et al were nerfed rather than keeping it un-nerfed for so long.
It's analagous to nerfing collector weapons vs. nerfing rare skinned ones.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Ecomancer
Firstly it doesn't matter unless you give it importance.
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| I would rather they spent their efforts on designing better non pve skills |
psycore
The paragon nerf has really made me sad and angry at the same time.
We've been hit a few times because of pvp and that's understandable but to screw with pve skills?
C.Mon Anet get your act together and give the unused classes some love not this bs.
We've been hit a few times because of pvp and that's understandable but to screw with pve skills?
C.Mon Anet get your act together and give the unused classes some love not this bs.
Keithark
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
The OP forgot to mention the "There's Nothing To Fear" nerf...which is quite funny, IMO.
Chance of Paragon getting into PUg in GW:EN: 0%. |
Avarre
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Originally Posted by psycore
The paragon nerf has really made me sad and angry at the same time.
We've been hit a few times because of pvp and that's understandable but to screw with pve skills? C.Mon Anet get your act together and give the unused classes some love not this bs. |
The class has strong DPS, high armor, and significant damage reduction - making them solid choices for areas with heavy damage to be reduced.
gene terrodon
If you can't keep your party alive without seed of life, delete your monk.
It was ridiculously overpowered and even a blind person could see this coming.
It was ridiculously overpowered and even a blind person could see this coming.
Ecomancer
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Originally Posted by gene terrodon
If you can't keep your party alive without seed of life, delete your monk.
It was ridiculously overpowered and even a blind person could see this coming. |
Name any other useful enchantment spell that can be learned for both pve and pvp that last 3 seconds and doesn't take hours upon hours to obtain usability.