GWEN...new title GRIND!

Uh, the one guy who keeps saying the grind isn't THAT bad, and you're already halfway through rank four at the end of the game:

uh.. are you on drugs? In addition to the main story, I've done a few dungeons and every sidequest... and I had about 9000 ebon vanguard rep.

It's probably going to take 20+ hours of grinding to hit rank five, which (at least to me!) is crazy ESPECIALLY if I ever want to get monument armor on another character.

Which is precisely the problem. You get the easy mode cap of rank 8 Sunspear about halfway through Nightfall without ever having to do anything more than once. If that were true of the GWEN pve-only skills, it wouldn't be a problem.

Asking that the game not consist of doing the same things a zillion times in a row in order to make your character slightly better at doing those same things even more times is not something new and revolutionary. Once upon a time, most games were like that. Of course, the Internet basically didn't exist then, so I'm not advocating going back in time.

But more recently, before the introduction of Nightfall, Guild Wars was like that. Before the introduction of the Sunspear and Kurzick/Luxon PVE-only skills, Guild Wars was still very nearly like that. GWEN is a major departure from what has been perhaps the game's biggest selling point for the previous 2+ years of its existence.

Endless grinding is for players with more free time than skill. There are many such people, which is why there are many games that cater to them. But it does not follow from that that all games should cater to such people. Surely there is a market for games that are more about the content and the challenge than grinding. Indeed, Guild Wars proved that in the very recent past.

Eotn is the (planned) final part of guildwars.

To "beat" the plot / main EOTN game is not grind, in fact it goes rather fast.

Just like in the past, the prestige armor has ZERO combat advantage vs the 1.5k.

Every time Anet put in something on the "side" in order to take longer or be more challenging people complain about grinding that NOT required to get though the game. It's there if you want to do it.

I don't know about you, but Sunspear points would lock out quests and missions until I have the sufficient rank. That is a direct pressure to grind, because it would mean anyone who wants to see the last mission would have to grind as well.

That's not the case with GW:EN.

That guy being me? Are you honestly kidding thinking it wud take 20+ hours to grind the extra 10k points to ran 5?

It wouldnt take that long. Just pick a highly populated instance with lots of creatures and make sure you get all the bounties from the res-shrines and you will make rank 5 in around 3-4 runs.

What no one seems to realise is that you can make rank 4 in any of the races by just doing the quests, dungeons and bounties while exploring. You then only need another 10k to reach rank 5.

Eearning 10k in points is NO different to being asked to earn 10k points in factions to progess. The difference being you dont NEED those 10k points in GWEN to progress. Yet no one complains about those 10k points in factions? so why complain here.

Its hypercritical.

I got rank 7 Norn in the 2 days of the preview event and that was 56k points in around 24 hours, so get realistic.

Since this has the possibility of getting beyond flames, and to a real discussion about Guild Wars vs Guild Wars 2: let's go there.

My theory

We already know GW2 will have high levels and/or no level cap. It's pretty obvious Anet figured out they aren't going to sell 9 million copies of Guild Wars with a level cap. For those of us who like the cap, this feels like a slap in the face.

But then, we you start to think about it, it makes you wonder: Would it matter if Guild Wars had no level cap? Would it ruin my fun, even if I never get beyond level 30, knowing there are level 100+ folks running around?

No. Just like it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of Guild Wars now that there are people with 10,000,000 Kurzick Faction and max skill levels of skills I don't even have... you know what? I don't need them. And frankly, I'm not sure making the game easier to beat would necessarily make it more fun (but that's another topic).

GWEN is obviously trying to have development "beyond" level 20, They said this in interviews. Skills tied to Title Tracks is a simple way to do this within the max level 20 Guild Wars universe.

So, we come to a crossroads. Guild Wars is changing from a "all are (relatively) equal" to "more time spent = better skills". To some, this will be the end of their experience with Guild Wars, to others, it will be a new way to play. I don't think Anet would do this if someone doing sales research didn't tell them it was a good idea.

To me, it doesn't really matter. If Anet needs to do this to sell more copies, and therefore it keeps Guild Wars running, that's fine with me. Like I said, it doesn't effect me one bit knowing there are characters out there more powerful than me. It doesn't effect the amount of fun I can have...

EDIT: Just to reinforce that point, right now I'm playing with Norn skills at Rank 2. Two. And it seems to be working just fine, or else I would remove them from my skillbar.

Do you honestly see no difference between having to do something once to see later content, and having to do exactly the same thing many times?

The problem here is perhaps not so much that there is grinding, but that it is being introduced where it didn't previously exist. It doesn't bother me that plenty of games that I never have played and never will are drowning in grinding. But making fundamental changes to a game that ruin the reason a substantial chunk of the playerbase liked the game in the first place is terrible game design. See, for example, Star Wars Galaxies and their New Game Experience.

Quest prerequisites have been around as long as Guild Wars. Way back in Prophecies, you had to do The Duke's Daughter to get access to Althea's Ashes. You had to do Minaar's Trouble and Minaar's Worry to get access to Iron Horse War Machine. So what?

Can you name anything at all from Prophecies or Factions (before the Kurzick/Luxon skills were introduced much later) where you had to do something more than once in order to get some pve advantage? The 10k faction requirement of Factions notably is not a correct answer here, as you just do the quests once and you're done.

They don't affect any other skills other than PvE skills, which the game won't even allow you to equip more than 3 at a time. They don't make or break the game. The only ones that will really feel the power of these PvE skills are monsters.

I just did some research.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Norn_Title_Track

Wow, that means in about 6 runs, you'll be Rank 5 in Norn without doing any other Norn quest..

I think the use of ranks to unlock armor would have been justifed had the armor had that l33t or epic feel to it. Im not sure how they could have done that, expect make all the armor pieces really extravigant.

But it failed because the armor sets were all rehashes of old armor and alot of them were really bland.

You also have to appreciate the difference between the other campaigns is that we different races. We didnt really have that before, unless you count the luxon and kuzack factions.

So Anet had to incorporate that idea of different races into key aspects of the game. The obvious ones being armor, weapons and consumeables.

It makes sense in a way that you need to earn the right to get armor made by a non-human species, because neither the Norn or Asura or the draws have had real contact with humans or trust humans. So why should they make us armor unless we prove ourselves?

I think the Vanguard armor should have been rank free because their human.

But again, to justify ranks the armor should have been alot more spectacular then it was.

You could compare this system to the luxon and kuzack armor, because you still need to ensure you are the right faction to get the right armor or have enough faction to use their crafters.

Maybe its not as intense as in GWEN, but you could see a trend was forming in a way.



But my arguement is the ranking systems for armor is fine, but we need more ways to make reputation points outside of grind and the armor should have been worth the ranks.

Its the armor that has let the system down, not the ranking system.

There is one very simple difference. When you farm/grind for ectos or trading you are actually getting a return on your time invested. But in GWEN they waste you time for very little return if any.

It's better than that, actually. The 4,000 figure quoted by the wiki is extremely conservative. Done correctly, I've never gotten below 5,000 points a run, and you can top 7~8k with a little luck (i.e., lots of Time Attack and Boss Bounty bonuses), so the average is about 50% higher than what the wiki is telling you.

Well, the factions PvE grind gives you 10 million more challenges. (snicker) That word sure rolls off of the tongue - mmmmmmmmmiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllliiiiiiiiiiooooooo ooonnnnnnnnnsssssss Like Carl Sagan said, (well close enough, millions, billions, whatever) "millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions". In case you are missing my joke, its the millions part.

No, thats not grind. (snicker) Definitely a challenge. Definitely. Judge Whopner at 11. Definitely.

It is easier to construct your argument if you do not read the other person's statements. Let me spell it out for you again. I am not going to grind. I am not going to max any titles. I have zero interest in that. If you are a entitlement grind monkey, then oh boy jimminy willikers this sure is the game for you. I am here posting because I saw quite bluntly false statements from you about how the new course of GW is freeeeeeeeeeeeeekin awesome, when it is patently not the case.

In case you missed the point of belabouring the perma +100 armor, the truly sad punch line is that the grinding entitlement monkeys are the same crowd who are saying the game is...... wait for it.......... almost there............

Too easy! (da dum ching) Who-da thunk it with perma +100 armor?

Now, what are they supposed to do with all this perma +100 armor? Cry about how the game is even easier? (sigh)

Guild Wars 2. If they could recapture the original flavor of Prophecies, then man they'd have a winner with updated graphics and some lessons learned since. Well maybe no, with entitlement junkies like you egging them on for more and more grind. Count me out of Grind Wars 2 - not gonna do it. Not doing it here and now, not gonna do it then either.

So for every post you or any other entitlement junkie makes, I want to be here to post the other view. Grind? Get the heck outta here. Go play WoW.

Come on. Basic logic. If that rule applies to me, then it also applies to you, making your arguments against flattening the PvE skill benefits null. You can have your super special title tracks, which has no effect in game, but the minute you start arguing that grinders should get superpowerful skills tied to those tracks as a reward, well you get hit by your own assertion, that we are not in competition so it makes no difference. So, why not max out the skill at the lowest rank of any title track, and leave the titles to show how far you have progressed? Hey, you're the one saying it doesnt matter. (snicker) The words of the title should be enough, without a distinctive and superpowerful game effect.

Seriously, take a long hard look at the side you are arguing for. The grinders do not need the perma +100 armor, yet they seem to feel the need to scream about how they are entitled.

Once again, and I know you cant quite get this, but try - I am not going to grind. I have no interest in the armours as they are functionally the same as my 1.5k. I'm happy with that. But for the future of this game, the path they are taking is obviously not in my best interests, as soon the entitlement monkeys will have their skill title tracks as a wedge, next it will be the armours, the grinders will have a specific advantage tacked on as a track to grind. They have already begin the process, containing the advantages to a single area - the norn title give you +50 to 100 hit points in the norn areas only, or LB for the demon areas.

But is that the end? I dont think so, and it does not bode well for the original premise of the game, of skill > time.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Does the effectiveness of pve-only skills cap at rank 5? If not, then your claim is irrelevant.

Any claim that starts with "if you spend several hours grinding..." in a game that is build around the premise of content instead of grinding should be a glaring indicator that something is seriously wrong.

This has nothing to do with it, quit with the non-sequiters, people. It has been this way since the beginning with Elite and Obsidian armor: the flashy stuff is for people who have nothing better to do than stare at the monitor, and that was never a problem with anybody. Ever.

However, in Prophecies and Nightfall this was a minor thing to do at the end of the game. In GW:EN, there's a (relatively) quick set of missions, and the remainder of the game is predominantly devoted to collecting perfect weapons, titles, etc. for pretty chochtkies and meaningless HOM garbage. Guild Wars always had "grind", but it never was a significant part of the game. GW:EN is not set up that way. Skills are now tied to grind, and a substantial portion of the new "content" is only unlocked through grind.

That kind of game is not a game. It's a time sink. Like Everquest. And WoW. And LOTRO. Maybe somebody out there is so lacking in their everday life that they get some sort of weird vicarious thrill from "achieving" some uber-elite item, but I don't think the majority of staid Guild Wars players are going to fit that bill and I don't think they'll stick around to keep buying things if the game shifts in that direction.

Don't go this route, ANET. Guild Wars was better than that. And if you need financial incentive for not idiotizing the game, just look what happened when they opened up Star Wars Galaxies so every drooling dumbass with an internet connection could "get it" and play (since so many people whined that it was too complex): the core group that was paying the devs' bills left and the game completely imploded.

What part of "grind isn't fun" is confusing you? Do you think just because the grind is in one place it's not grind?

I'm not going to run out and continually clear areas just for the sake of it. That's not a game. I could achieve exactly the same sort of "success" with ProgressQuest, and I can do something that's actually fun while I wait for it to happen that way.

If that's what YOU want to do, FINE, but MY point remains: there are already games for people like you. Turbine makes one. Blizzard makes one. If ANET decides to make this one into one of those, I'm outta here, and I bet you most of the other long term players will fall off too as the new content ceases to be interesting.

So they get +100 armor, so they get PvE skills, so what? I have a line between me and them, as long as those grinding rewards don't affect me, it doesn't matter. WoW is where they cross the line, Grinders get direct superiority over other players. So no, I won't be joining WoW anytime soon.


I don't care if they raise the ranks through the roof and gave grinders godlike skills at rank 100, it...doesn't...affect... me. There IS no competition. I'm not the one asking for a change here, I'm fine with how the game is so far. I'm arguing against lowering the bars because I think that is a bad move. It would reduce challenge and shorten attention spans. If that happens... hey, you're right, it STILL doesn't affect me. But something tells me it's not going to remove all the stupid whinning and moaning on this forum. People have been crying about how much grind is in this game since chapter 1, this is just another one of those phase.

Probably the same reason why alot of players feel like they're "cheated" right now. They worked for it, and of course they won't be happy if you take it away. Just for the record, removing that +100 won't affect me one way or the other. But again, it's just probably not a smart move right now. Any decision like that should either be made before the game was released, or never made at all.

Trust me, if they cross the line, you can count me in. I too will be pissed. But even when the title seems like it's going in WoW's direction, I have faith in Anet that they won't cross the line. This is just some fancy gimmick that punches out extra dmg to monsters, no biggie. If people want to grind for that, let them. If those damage mean so much to you, you can take their train and work on it, or simply don't worry so much about it and just change your build. They can't equip more than 3 PvE skills at a time, which means whatever advantage they have from those PvE skills, won't mean more than dropping monsters 1 or 2 seconds ahead of me.

You guys say it like this is WoW already... it isn't. Rewarding players with a candy at the end of a tunnel is one way of enticing players to do something, the other is to put a wolf behind them and get them to run... and I rather not have the wolf. If you don't reward players with something at the end of the tunnel, they're just going to wander around oblivious where they are going and when they stop, they'll realize they're right back where they started. Of course whether you want that candy at the end of the tunnel or not is up to you, guild wars is still an open-ended world, I can still wander around aimlessly if I wanted to. THAT hasn't changed, and that's what I like.

I'm not sure where this is going to take us. But I rather not dwell in the unsuspecting future than living in the now. So far I'm fine with what they have. If they choose to do like what you say... and head straight into WoW territory, you will have my support. If they screw up, that's their fault... but so far the changes have mostly been in an effort to reward players than to punish them, I'm having more fun than any other campaigns (except the beginning part of Nightfall... can't beat that) and I rather it not change. So until they screw up, I rather be an optimist than play Nostradamus and predict the end of a world.

I'm still not sure I get it, but maybe I'm going to be perpetually clueless... There are several types of people around complaining about the grinding.

1) Armour. People want armour without rank requirements.
They just want to reach the outpost and buy the armour. They want no requirement, quest or rank and they feel they are being cheated by being "refused" access to content they paid for.

This is just one point that I'm not going to get. I don't mind doing the "grind" for the armour, because I did the "grind" for the armour simply by playing the game the normal way I play - explore and screen shot. Oh, boss, let's see if I can't get a greenie. Oh, what's hunt rampage. Wow, ok I'll try and kill quick and keep it going. Oh, so how long can I keep this going. If I work it right I can keep it up for the entire map - let's give this a go. 20 minutes first try. If I get it again I'll have to beat that time, wow 45 minutes. Hmm, if this nets me points I can't be all that far from my next rank... Oh look at that, just 600 till I can get armour, nearly two ranks up from my last check.

You see I didn't do much of this on the preview weekend. I mainly did the quests because I figured I wouldn't get to explore as much as I wanted to. When everything became open to me, I actually started paying attention to these things. Now that I've explored all of the Asuran area I probably won't do it again. But the quests alone (taking the bounties for kills along the way) do net you a LOT of points - even if you do take the most direct route.

I just don't understand, and probably never will, why people feel that the rank requirement is too high, or shouldn't exist at all. It is an expansion. The main quest line is short, meaning the little thrills we get out of finish missions and quests are also limited. By adding "stop measures" to items that are NOT REQUIRED to complete the game they are adding little thrills (and a little time) to the expansion. Yes I would agree that r7 (ala the preview) was too high. 56k would have required me to enter map areas over and over again. 26k I think is about right as it can be done by questing and general exploration.

2) Skills. People want to use the PvE skills wihtout rank requirement.
They feel they are being cheated by not having access to these skills at maximum rank.
Anet wanted to add further character development. This was their solution. Certainly not the best solution. I wonder if the problem here is that a lot of people see titles as grind, period. I see a certain titles as grind. For example I basically don't farm faction unless there is a double rewards weekend - and only then because I still didn't and don't have all the faction skills. Killing the same thing over and over does get very boring, very quickly. For a tempting enough reward (double faction AND skills) AND time played with friends (no friends = no grind) I can be tempted into farming.

Maybe, instead they should have introduced "factional attributes". What I mean is that when a title is displayed, you can put your attribute points into that faction and reap the benefits through the skill progression tree. I think they shouldn't add any more points. Afterall, character builds are a matter of trade-offs. You can only have 16 points in the one attribute. Perhaps then, in order to tie it back to the titles, the titles could operate as a rune bonus. +1 at ranks 1-x, +2 at ranks x-xx, and +3 at ranks xx-xxx. Since rank 1 is VERY easy to achieve, there would only be 2 ranks difference between the grinders and the non-grinders, which in terms of skill progression (assuming it is nice an linear, and it ought to be) is next to nothing at all. IMHO this truly would be character development.

However if you are looking for skills to be top-tier, given to you straight away at the beginning of the game with no play at all involved, then I officially don't get it. It may be a game, it may be there for fun, but the point of a game is to be a challenge. To be stimulating.

By my definition grind is not a challenge. Grind is not stimulating. Since my care factor for titles, and generally PvE skills is zero - I find myself living quite happily with the current system. If I want armour, it is a "challenge" to get to level 5, but NOT grind - as I've found that it can be done in the general course of play, play my way that is - with exploration and light boss hunting. Because farming (anything other than light boss hunting) also fits my definition of grind.

I remember a discussion a very long time ago regarding the farming and grind required to get FoW. Casual players complained that because they were casual players they wanted to have access to it as well and they didn't have time to farm either the materials, or tradeable items for the $$$ for materials. I am a casual player. I don't have FoW, I'm saving to get a set, 2.5 years later I'm still saving. When I get it I will get a little thrill out of it even though it is so common in game now.
In that same arguement othres wanted FoW armour to be HARDER to get - for the general reason of keeping it 1337.

I remember the uproar about greens. Good items now dropping and becoming easier for casual players to obtain. I remember the discussions about how "expensive" greens were, and how they weren't the solution for casual plaeyrs.

I remeber the discussions about "EU never has favour", and "NA never has favour", the common answer back then was - if you want it, go get it. Of course the gapping gap between the PvP and PvE community is much wider now so that answer was treated in a completely different manner to how it is treated now. I'm not saying that PvP controlling a PvE area is fair - that's a separate argument. Only that ingame and on these boards there have been many examples of the "work for it" principle.

Many players now complain the game is a game, it's relaxation, they don't want to "work" for it. But here's the point. It's a game. It doesn't matter. You only get out of it what you put into it. And if you are so busy complaining that it isn't fair, you are going to spend your time wallowing in misery and of course you aren't going to enjoy the game. Games are a challenge. That's why they exist. They are an adventure. They are there to help us feel good about ourselves, our achievements. The human race likes to win, they like to succeed. That is human nature, period. The only thing that differs between the people who play them is how far they are willing to go to get that "boost" out of succeeding - and how much they like to crow about it.

I want new armour, 26k for me isn't much to get since I've found that it can be gained fairly easily.

Others want new armour but they don't want to "work" for it. They want to succeed without putting in any effort.

You only get out what you put in, and if you refuse to put anything into the game, if you refuse to let yourself enjoy the scenery, the story, the lore, the challenges offered, then why should you be getting anything out of it at all - least of all enjoyment. So you paid for it? I bought a puzzle once - the jigsaw type for those who remember what they are - the picture on the front was so very pretty. I took it home and started it immediately. I was done in 3 hours. I was disappointed because it was easy, but I coudln't take it back because it was out of the box, and afterall, the picture was the same. Nonetheless I decided I enjoyed the picture, and even now I found enjoyment in the puzzle by challenging myself to see how quickly I can get it put together.

I'm only pointing this out as nothing more than an example.

Log in, type /age and see how many hours you have invested in Guild Wars. Now, ask yourself what you did to have played this many hours.

Did you explore? Did you complete all the missions? Did you find the weapons you've always wanted? Did you obtain the armors you've always wanted? Did you meet new friends while playing? Did you meet new heroes you'd rather adventure with instead? Did you obtain all the skills you wanted? Did you capture all the Elites you wanted? Did you try a new secondary on your favorite character? Did you try actually playing your other characters to maybe give your gaming experience some variety? Did you try playing a new primary set of skills on your main character?

If you answered yes to any of these, then you've done what many games actually ask you to do. And that is to extend the experience using your own imagination and intuition. If all these were already done for you when you picked up the game, what's the point of playing?

Now ask yourself this about GWEN: If the armors and everything were made available to you once you arrived at the first outpost in GWEN, how long would it have taken you to complain there was nothing to do afterward since you have what you think you've paid for already?

Experiment with new builds, it's why each game comes with new skills. Mix it up a bit. Take a left turn out of that familiar town instead of a right. Bring a hero that's been collecting dust and give yourself an objective - ANet sets the stage for you, but I find it unreasonable to ask them to give you everything you think the game should be in your eyes. Sometimes, you need to step out of your comfort zone, and actually create an adventure yourself. And before you know it...you've attained level 5 in a new faction of GWEN, and now you can get that shiny new optional armor you've always wanted, and become a better player while you're at it.

For the record, I'm not an Look below my name, above my avatar, where it says Diablo™

It's a title and it says i'm a "Forge Runner"

Now why is this title any different than the titles in the game? The reward? I get to add attachments, I get to edit my post and create new threads... but those perks aren't the reason why I got the title. I just went on about my business and posted when I felt like it. Other than that they're just a bunch of text below my name. I didn't pay $40 so I can pursue some silly text below my name, no I paid for the quests, the story, the environments and just about everything else.

Being a "Forge Runner" doesn't make me a better, more educated, or more qualified than a poster of "Ascalonian Squire" or "Furnace Stoker". They're just gimmicks, they don't reflect the skills or qualifications of a player anymore than 15k armors. 7 warriors with KoaBD titles won't subsitute a titleless monk.

Why be compelled to pursue these titles like they're what matters the most when in reality they're probably what matters the least.

In what bizarre sense does capping the increase in effectiveness of pve-only skills at rank 4 or so constitute "lowering the bars"? Wouldn't that leave the low ranks unaffected, and make the high ranks weaker? Wouldn't that make the game weakly harder, not easier?