GWEN...new title GRIND!

Erm...said this on another thread.

When it first came out, I argued for changes, but now that the "newness" has worn off.....meh. Rather play Factions or Nightfall. I got the heroes, and that's all I care about(Livia...oh Livia..).

Titles aren't required. The Djinn has one skill. Immolate(yawn). Rather have a Dual attune ele that knew how to use Rodgort's and have that skill slot for something useful. You are handicapping yourself for a fast-moving Flesh Golem with a mediocre ele skill. And at its MAX it's lvl 20. Yawn?

Some of you are arguing that PUGs won't let you into a group. PUGs. Guys responsible for Healing Breeze wammos and Naruto sins. Get a decent guild. If I am looking at an elite mission, I can wait a few days to get a guild group together, rather than go through the frustration of build calling for people that usually don't know how the builds even work. For just about all missions, even in GWEN, you can go through doing H/H with skills from the big three without any GWEN skills. If you have a problem with PUGs...C'mon. It has nothing to do with the skills. Most are casual players that see the new skills, go "Ooooo!", and want everyone to use it. Most use them to cover up their own deficiencies with an extra body. If they are requiring it, you don't want to be on that team, anyway.

When they are the only teams available, kinda a moot point.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

Read the comment about "Get a decent guild" and learn to live without instant gratification.

I guess GWEN and you are now telling me to leave my friends? Interesting.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

I kinda detest the huge grind as well, who knows, maybe they'll fix it like the kurzick/luxon title tracks.

Instant gratification =/= clearing Drakkar Lake again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, and being rewarded for it with superpowerful skills, not vanity items which noone objects to. We want you to have your vanity items, but superpowerful skills tied to grind breaks the original premise of the game.

What part of skill > time are you missing? This is grind, and it breaks the original concept of the game every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Skill > time does not apply to PvE skills. Reasoning: You are not "competing" in a PUG, you are helping.

Also, I'm doing just fine at Guild Wars with Rank 2 Ursan Blessing. I'm not going to "grind" to increase it just for vanities sake!

Mordakai, if you want that kind of an experience, then choose an appropriate game - for example WoW has 70 levels of increasing power.

Guild Wars started as a no-grind MMO, based on skill. We did not invent the
"skill > time" text blurb we keep mentioning. This game maxes out at level 20, which you can achieve in a few days at most.

Maxxing out on any other MMO? Not like this one.

You are saying:

Go read "Finish Him!" Vanity? 80 damage uninterruptable shout that also causes deep wound and breached armor is not vanity.

You can get that by clearing Drakkar Lake again and again and again etc etc etc. So, this is supposed to be a game extender? What genius thought that was better than more of the game? More zones and towns?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Thats why GW brought " PVP "
And all those extra o so powerfull skills dont matter much
I only like having 100hp extra while in norn land
and the Ruby Djinn ok it sucks and costs a skill slot
what is all the upset about
PvP can be as fun as PvE try it sometimes

GW is still al about skilzz

a noob cant survive longer with 100hp extra then an experienced player

so dont yawn at ncsoft or go play WoW or Lineage if u dare

I got almost lvl 5 vanguard for my armor

OMG what part of these pve only skills dont you understand?

Yes they exist and yes they are oober powerfull at maxed ranks. But they are purely optional and they are not critical to any aspect of the game.

You dont need them to play elite zones.
You dont need them to do quests, dungeons or mission.
You dont need them to explore.
You dont need them to do anything ingame.

Everything ingame is completable without using pve only skills! Why cant you understand that?

Yes adding someone into your team with a max rank and one of these pve only skills will help and yes it will make it easier! But with or without that person in your team you will still be able to complete what ever your doing.

Do you not understand that?

These pve only skills are completely optional and add nothing critical to gameplay that you cant do without them! You just insist on trying to push an issue onto the system even though there isnt one.

All this comes down to is that you want an oober powerfull pve only skill ready and waiting and fully maxed out, without having to put any effort in.

You dont want this because its unbalanced, you want this to make your life easier and to make elite zones easier! It has nothing to do with being unbalanced!

Its not unbalanced in the slightest because the strength of one persons pve only skill does not impact anyone else around them (aside from LB gaze).

If there were aspects of the actual game which were dependant upon the use of any of the pve only skills (other then LB gaze) I would agree about that one individual skill.

I would agree it was unfair! But there isnt..... there no pve only skills aside from LB gaze that you need to use and which are critical to gameplay!

Stop saying there otherwise!

Guild Wars i believe is an aquired taste. I am not starting a thread or defending why WoW has more players than GW. But GW started out being a pvp game. Thats what it wanted to be at the start. Thats why its named "Guild Wars" not World of Tyria or whatever...

They are now trying to copy or mirror what other successful pve mmo's are doing. (ex. grind) Is this a bad direction? I dunno. GW is based on skill i do agree, but turning the game into a pve machine, gives you little room. There is no advancement for your characters. I do believe that they need to keep the game based on skill, but you also need to better yourself as a toon. Keep getting cool loot, making your character as leet as possible. Customization is a huge part of peoples wish list. I hope in GW2 that there will be a way to obtain higher levels that include more atributes or better stats for your character. I have never liked the idea that your character is maxed out in as lil as 8 hours. But as far as GWEN being a new title grind, i dont believe so, nothing imo is worth grinding really for. Some people say they bought the game for the story, once you have beaten it, you can put it down and play something else. I would rather have some sort of grind that gives rewards, or content for your character. But again, i am not gonna grind for any title that gives me crappy armor or crappy weapons. Its all about if you want to grind. optional

Every time I hear about grinding, the proponents try to pass it off as not a big deal. However, I see the problem getting worse and worse.

When titles came out, they said it wasn't a big deal if they didn't give you any advantages. I agreed there.

When they started giving people better salvaging ability, they said it wasn't a big deal. I was a bit concerned by the concept, but let it go.

When titles gave you 8 damage reduction and an extra 40% damage against all of Nightfall's endgame content, they said it wasn't a big deal since you didn't need them to get through the game. Would you say a shield with 8 damage reduction (100% chance) and a weapon that does 60% extra damage when customized would be overpowered then?

Now they're saying the NF skills aren't a big deal. Lets take a look at the norn title. The proponents have been using the example only of the +100 health in norn areas. But lets take a look at some of the skills, shall we?

Ursan Blessing - Someone who's maxed the norn title will have an additional +100 hp over someone who didn't. Someone who maxed the norn title will have +10 armor over someone who didn't. Someone who maxed the norn tietle will deal +70 damage more than someone who didn't when using Ursan Strike. Thats a hell of a lot for a skill with a 3 second recharge. And lets not forget, you don't even need to be on Norn turf to use this one.

I could see GW2 coming out with a title track that gives you +9 health regen and immunity to all conditions and hexes. Would that be a big deal? At the rate grinding is giving benefits now, we can't be far off.

But people that say its not fair to give these small advantages to the grinders need to understand that its in pve. I am not playing against you. Why should you care that i can play through the game a tiny bit easier because i grind or work for it. It is all optional. I believe that if there is a pve only skill that gives me a an advantage out against MONSTERS and not PLAYERS then yes, there should be a lil effort into getting the skill.

... You forgot 1 important thing the skill is an elite

Elites are overpowered when u look at the regulair skillz
I prefer having an extra meteor shower for 5 energy (Echo) then being a stupid ursan with -2 energy regen lol...

its a crap elite in my opinion and it isnt fun playing either

so i said that

You do need them if you want to PUG. Like you have stated already, you don't go to the elite areas, so you would not know because you don't go there. Your words on that.

So, they do unbalance the game!

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

@gattocheese. The definition of work is effort and time spent, in pursuit of a reward. That is what you are describing. I can get work, well, when I go to work?

If you want to minimize the skills, by saying "small advantages", then you're wrong. +100 armor across everyone in the party for 6 seconds at a cost of 8 adrenaline is not a small advantage. Jeez, get a few +adrenaline skills and you can have virtually perma +100 armor.

So, uh, your small advantages are actually psycho-crazy powerful skills. Uh huh. And the worst part about it is that they are only gained through repeatedly clearing zones, or for one option in factions doing the same quest for 400 reward (when the top is 10 million) 25 thousand times. Oh yeah, you can get double the faction when you contribute to your alliance, so it is lowered down to a measly 12 thousand 5 hundred times.

Come on. Grind is grind, dood. Its bad. It doesnt belong in a game which was originally touted as having no grind and coining the phrase "skill > time".

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

What I have been trying to explain, but the FANBOI's don't seem to want to admit it.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

skill>time ?

Was it not Anet who said "We wanted to reward the players who have spent literally thousands of hours playing GW with GWEN and the HoM" Watch the demo's, those are almost exact words. I do believe that a person who plays a game more gets more skill, learns more, even if it is repeatative. Skill = Time. I might grind the same area over and over, but i can learn how to kill faster, make stronger builds in the process. I dont really care for most grinds, and i never have, there usually has never been a great enough reward for me to grind. But, if there is something i want, then i will grind it and enjoy it because i am playing for a cause that i think is important to me. And no casual player should mass the same amount as me, with my thousands of hours playing.

@gattocheese, player skill =/= super powerful skills. A snail tied to a lever can push a button. +100 armor party-wide is not player skill, it is instant victory. So rewarding players who have played this game for literally thousands of hours with instant-win buttons is.... good policy? Smart?

Oh, but you get those skills by, what was it again, yeah, the word I am looking for, huh, hmmmmm, yeah, maybe it wa- no, not that, um, yeah grind?

Factions tops out at 10 million. That is Duel of the Houses x 12 thousand 5 hundred times if you donate faction to your alliance, and 25 thousand times if not.

Yeah, lets reward that. (?)

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

/agree

won't be buying GW2 if it's based on this same crap as GW:EN.

I will be waiting a while until I read a lot about it. I also will be ignoring the FANBOI's comments and seeing the ones that give good and bad reviews to see how it is.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

Yeah let me say it again, I dont really care for grind, but why would someone else who plays the game pve and gets a pve skill thats powerful (from doing something that nobodys likes )(grind) bother u? It doesnt effect your gameplay at all. It doesnt effect they way you have ever played, or the way you beat the game. I had used one pve only skill and that was seed of life. Got nerfed, suprise anet nefs a all powerfull skill. Do you want that skill? Do you want to obtain it in an easy and hand out fashion? Do you think that powerfull skills should be handed out and not earned? Maybe instead of smart remarking me, tell anet a different way to give out the skill. Maybe anet did wrong by trying to improve upon GW and make pve only skills. By god pvp has only damaged all the skills already.

Oh but you get those pve skills by how? .. oh wait... no... umm whats it called...errr. grinddddd. yeah....like i care if someone gets a pve skill or not. I dont really care for grind, but like i care that somone out there with savior of the kurzicks gets 100+ armor. They earned that thing by having no life and grinding their arses, and i dont care.

Only if it has effected me will i care. GWEN, the armor sucks, so i dont care..GWEN pve skills-dont need em to beat the game. Without the grind, how else do you expect Anet to keep us playing GWEN and GW for another year and half.

Actual content.

Content is what makes a game, it could have bad graphics and so on, as long as the content is there the game will be good. But GWEN offers lil or no content to be there. So grind is in its place. So i beat the game and mastered most the dungeons. Now what? Something to do.. something to do... .. i guess i can get new armor(grind), or skill(grind). I dont think Anet plans on making GW2 a grinding game, or for the most part a grinding game. I think that this is just filler. They need to place in some cheap and fast filler for us, for the next year and a half, so mass grinding is introduced in GWEN.

lol, youre still going on about the "save yourselves" skill tied to luxon/kurz faction. what dont you understand about a nominal increase in effectiveness? 6 seconds isnt a huge advantage over 3 seconds.

and your skill > time agrument just doesnt pan out either because youre using a marketing gimic to validate all your agruments.

everything in this world revolves around time spent and skill. video games are no different. take a r9+ hero ranked player and someone thats r3. 99% of the time the r9+ player will, in fact, be better because of the time they put into the game. is that really such a huge surprise?

but youre not even arguing against pvp grind. youre qq-ing over a puny advantage that pvers have if they choose to grind reputation ranks.

You know what, gattocheese, I owe you an apology. This has been such a long running thread that, honestly, I stopped using drier, more logical arguments about 15 pages ago. I find that most of the people on the other side are, quite frankly, young, and respond better to sarcasm and biting commentary, than a logical, laid out, point by point chain of reasoning.

Seriously, I understand why people are saying that it's optional, it's not necessary, and it's not a big deal. They're just wrong.

The game was founded on the premise of "no grind".

The players who are playing 4,672 hours are the same players asking to make the game harder, and their voices have been raised recently. Do you think it is coincidence that they now have access to skills that give +100 armor, party wide? Are they the ones that need the skill for an easier game experience?

Is this trend, based on the bald truth that a Macro can (better and faster than a player because Macros do not sleep) clear zones and raise your title-based skills to stratospheric level, really a good thing for Guild Wars?
Really, if your preferred game experience is, well, Macro-like simplistic zone-slaughtering, then this is your kind of expansion and I will not be able to convince you otherwise. It is your type of game.

The same goes for me, I cannot be convinced that this title-based "super powerful skill reward for grind" idea for further character advancement in GW is a good idea. It does not fit into my preferred game experience.

That is why I am telling people to please go play WoW, it gives a better grind-based advancement gameplay experience. They have had years to perfect it, while GW is merely tacking it onto their game.

Repeated content does not make a game. Google the Advanced Lawnmower Simulator. The way I see this, ANet has basically made a carrot for certain players that consists of "Clear Drakkar lake 100 times, and you will have super powerful skills!" Once again, I do not see this doing any good for GW. If they wanted to give us more content, then give us more content.

This is a no-brainer to me.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Lord seriously... no you dont, not for elite zones! That statement has got to be the most stupid thing anyone has ever said concerning GWs.

Are you honestly suggesting that people are completely incapable of doing elite zones like FOW, UW and the factions elite areas without pve only skills?

Think about your answer here... (consider the fact that people were doing elite zones long before pve only skills were added)!!

Seriously Lord you have some really bad elitism attitude to you! This has nothing to do with "needing these skills for PUGs in elite zones", because people were doing those zones long before they existed.

Its purely because you think you're choice in skills is the only build people should be using. But because it requires ranks you're p'd off! This is just about you and your elitest friends wanting oober powerfull skills for elite zones.

You do not need these pve only skills to do elite zones... you know that, I know that, everyone knows that and do not try to say otherwise.

Just consider the fact people were doing FOW 2 years before they were added and then grow up!


Im actually leaving this alone now, because the reasons against these titles are really getting pathetic. These pve only skills are not necessities and have no impact on anyone or anything expecpt the user.

Its a choice to use them and this notion of "you need them to do elite zones" and "it unbalances the game" is just really sad excuses for the fact people want oober powerfull skills given them without any effort to make their lives easier.

So have fun and enjoy the rants, this is just getting sad now and its being dominated by the elite zone playing players who think their l33t.

I agree with you totaly. The fact of the matter is that Anet decided a while back ago to cater more toward the casual player than the hardcore player. Anet destroyed the economy, made hardmode normal and normal mode easy, ect...

I posted early that we dont pay subscriptions and that catches the eye of most people. But in reality, if your a hardcore player (which there is a lot of us), i paid for 3 campaigns, 10 extra character slots, a second account, and now gwen, well over $300. The hardcore players are the ones dishing out the money and the casual players are the ones getting the benefits. The grind is there as filler right now, with no real content in GWEN. It sucks, i am very disappointed in the grind and armors in GWEN. As long as casual players want the same items, money, weapons, and armor as us its gonna be bad. As long as the casual player wants to play the game with little skill involved, its gonna happen. Anet is trying to be more friendly because the people who played the game for 2000+ hours were reaking the benefits before and the casuals were complaining. Now its us who have played since the beginning who are be leveled out. Times always change, welcome to the new GuildWars. I gave a poor review of GWEN at the top of the forums.

@korcan, if you want a saucy reply, here goes. If you believe that player skill can beat near-perma +100 armor, then I challenge you immediately. I'll wager you think yourself a better player than I, so you should beat me right? So, you grind up my 10 million faction since you like that style of gameplay and I do not, and I'll beat you silly in time trials clearing any zone you want with identical hero/henches every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Seriously, +100 armor is crazy powerful. That is not some "minor advantage". Do not confuse player skill with the imbalancing effect of these super-skills.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

afaik, "save yourself" is a pve only skill. and clearing zones based on time in pve is just stupid. there is no competition in pve. if you want competitive, go play pvp.

fyi, i have 0 rank in both kurz and lux factions.

and if what youre saying is true and you can beat me silly in "time trials" [lol] for clearing zones, you just negated your entire agrument about over-powered pve only skills.

and like ive said countless times, theres a nominal difference between lower and maxed gwen ranks.

What a wonderful opportunity for me to re-post my last post, so you can explain to me in detail how I am negating anything by stating that +100 armor, party wide, is super-powerful regardless of anything you may say, and not an appropriate reward for grind?

While elites are much stronger than other skills, IT COUNTS AS AN ELITE TO BOTH THE PERSON WHO SPENT HOURS GRINDING AND THE PERSON WHO DIDN'T. You chose to completely disregard my entire thesis, the difference between the person using this elite skill with a maxed title versus the person using this elite skill without the maxed title. The person who spent hours grinding isn't getting the advantage because Ursan Blessing is an elite skill. The person who spent hours grinding is getting an advantage because he or she spent hours grinding.

and like ive stated earlier, 6 seconds compared to 3 seconds in that skill is a nominal difference at best. and guess what? you dont even need to grind for the first tier. you can get it by casually ab-ing.

and guildwars premise of "no grind" was a joke anyways. if youve played the game at all, youd know that. there has always been grind in this game. you just seem to disapprove now because the grind is tied to pve only skills.

if you think people that grind max gwen reps are going to have a huge advantage over you in pve, youre just plain wrong. but if youre agruing against grind on principle because anet advertised their game as "no grind" youre still plain wrong.

grind has always been apart of this game period.

and i could care less if people grind max reputation ranks to gain a small advantage over me in pve.

i guess you simply forgot about the countless dungeons that anet decided to add to gwen as well. you should play the entire expansion before making such baseless remarks.

Hm. Direct from the guildwars.com website, Products, Guild Wars Prophecies.

Guild Wars® is an online roleplaying game that rewards player skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

They said it, not me. Unlike you, I hold people, especially politicians, to their word. ANet is no exception. If you and I disagree, then we disagree. If you'd like to explain to me why grind is good in a cogent argument, then I'd be happy to listen, but if all you have to offer is "you're wrong" and "I dont care", then color me unimpressed.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Ok, for the people who are having trouble reading, or are just being dense.


I don't have the skills, therefore I can't be elitiist as I will not grind for the skills. I am being discriminated against because the OVERPOWERED skills available for the title huggers in GWEN.

I don't have the skills, therefore I can't be elitiist as I will not grind for the skills. I am being discriminated against because the OVERPOWERED skills available for the title huggers in GWEN.

I don't have the skills, therefore I can't be elitiist as I will not grind for the skills. I am being discriminated against because the OVERPOWERED skills available for the title huggers in GWEN.

I don't have the skills, therefore I can't be elitiist as I will not grind for the skills. I am being discriminated against because the OVERPOWERED skills available for the title huggers in GWEN.

I don't have the skills, therefore I can't be elitiist as I will not grind for the skills. I am being discriminated against because the OVERPOWERED skills available for the title huggers in GWEN.

I don't have the skills, therefore I can't be elitiist as I will not grind for the skills. I am being discriminated against because the OVERPOWERED skills available for the title huggers in GWEN.

I don't have the skills, therefore I can't be elitiist as I will not grind for the skills. I am being discriminated against because the OVERPOWERED skills available for the title huggers in GWEN.

Hopefully, you read at least one of them before you respond again and embarass yourself further for not being able to read the english language in an english language area.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

ive never once stated that grind is good. what i have eluded to is that grind is purely optional. it is not necessary at all. casual players can play grind free and the grinders can grind all they want without anything becoming unbalanced in pve.

if you truely believe what you said in the above quote, guildwars does, infact, reward skill and innovative play over time spent online. you said it yourself. "[you]ll beat me silly" lol.


it seems to me that youre agruing for the sake of arguing.


nothing is over-powered in pve and grinders dont get a significant advantage over non-grinders in pve. i dont know how i can make that clearer. you even admit to it.

I agree whole heartedly.
Too many people are making a huge fuss over not being able to get prestige armour right off the bat. This is not WoW or E/Q where the absolute high end armour is conferring upon you some massive health boost or set bonuses etc, its for looks. You're not disadvantaged in anyway by not having it. Guild Wars maintains its mission of ensuring players don't have to grind. You don't grind? No problem! There's 15k that doesn't require it, or alternatively just wear 1.5. Not like prestige armour makes an actual difference!

Also, I have to say. From just finishing the primary missions (once), doing 6-8 of the dungeons (and associated quests) as well as doing quests and minigames (norn tourney, dwarven boxing)... I'm rank 4 of everything except Vanguard which is rank 3 for me (haven't done any vanguard region dungeons). If I actually had once faction I wanted to be rank 5 with, I'd very easily be rank 5 with them by now. I'm past half way with the dwarves by doing dungeons and my norn rep got gooooooooood loving from doing Frostmaw.
So my question is this: Why the hell do you have to grind? You can just go about your normal day to day in-game activities in EOTN and still get Rank 5 fairly soon.
Or are some people classifying questing and dungeons as grind?
If killing mobs is grind, questing, dungeons and minigames also grind.. and we consider grind to be bad... why are you still playing GW's? There's clearly no element of the PvE side of the game that appeals to you...

I just don't understand some people :/

I reiterate, things someone who grinds gets that a non-grinder does not:
8 damage reduction and + 40% damage vs. Nightfall endgame foes (Lightbringer).
Ability to do 70 damage more than a non grinder every 3 seconds (Ursan).
Unconditional +10 Armor in all areas (Ursan).
Unconditional +100 Health in all areas (Ursan).
Additional +100 Health in norn areas (Norn).
Additional +50% damage versus a hexed enemy (Asuran Scan).
Additional 10 seconds to have a 50% chance to block attacks, reapplied every time an enemy strikes you. (Mental Block) Having it reapply on 1 second for no title isn't likely. Having it reapply within a 11 second window, extremely likely if in battle.

Significant advantages? If you don't think those are, what, in your opinion, would be significant? That isn't a rhetorical question. I seriously want to know what you would consider significant if these aren't.

you obviously havent read all of my posts. simply playing through all the gwen primary quests and doing all side quests and dungeons will get you to r4-5 at minimum. im not familiar with all the gwen pve only skills youre using as examples but im sure their effectiveness is nominal if you compare dmg stats between ranks 4-5 and max.

Ok its obviouse Anet has gone back on their word slightly on these PVE only skills but the benefits are fairly insignificant. To the guys ranting about lightbringer in Nightfall.

I never used any of the lightbringer skills or payed any attention to my rank and still completed it with only hench.

Anets going to realy struggle to keep people interested in Guildwars if they dont give them somthing to work towards after theyve completed it. Grind = replayability to alot of people , stop kicking up a fuss over nothing you dont need to grind to complete PVE,just let people grind if they want to.