Hey, I got some quotes for you from the other thread.
Quote:
Google the Advanced Lawnmower Simulator (ALS for short).Grind, should not be here.
TabascoSauce
You'll play it once or twice, and have fun sending it to your friends, but it gets old fast because it is exactly the same content.
Now imagine that they had a central completion counter for the ALS. If you complete it 6 thousand times, then you get a bonus!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your lawnmower will go 20 percent faster!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahooooo!
Welcome to the new vision of GW(?) Make a short game, then put superskills tied to repetitive grind area-clearing. Wow, doesn't that sound like a winner?
Oh, and the best the grind-supporters can say is that it is optional? So, what other option do I have? Play different areas? Oh, no, they did not make any.
So, go ahead and suggest that I play a different game. Then I'll get to ask you, what does that say about the game when the only alternative you have to offer me in the game besides grind (since there is a shortage of game) is.... go play another game? Heh, just exactly what does that say?
Quote:
New dungeons/missions/quests/areas/explorables/gametypes. My list goes on. To think that they ran out of ideas is bullshit, and I hope you're not implying that.|
So, what does that say about the the state of the game in general, and you in particular, when your whole argument is "grind extends the game"?
Thanks! TabascoSauce freekedoutfish
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
TabascoSauce "Oh, and the best the grind-supporters can say is that it is optional? So, what other option do I have? Play different areas? Oh, no, they did not make any." ...because im not a grind supporter in the slightest. Plus ofcourse we're going to say its optional as defense for the skill+title mechansim. Thats hardly a revelation! What other defense are we going to make? Thats a pretty good one in my opinion! As I keep saying it is your choice to increase rank and to effect your personal skills. The strength of you're personal pve only skills dont effect anyone else, just as Joe Blogs dont effect you. I dont get the point you were trying to make. Also... "So, go ahead and suggest that I play a different game. Then I'll get to ask you, what does that say about the game when the only alternative you have to offer me in the game besides grind (since there is a shortage of game) is.... go play another game? Heh, just exactly what does that say?" ...i've personally said. Offer alternative ways to continue the life span of the game, so it survives the 2 years between GWEN and GW2 and suggest them to Anet. But ive yet to see any other suggestions. People just seem content to complain, but not suggest different ways to add lifespan! Yes you can add more quests, more missions, more expansions! But that costs time, resources and money and Anet is trying to focus on a sequal. But chances are that in 2 years they will either release another expansion or extra features into GWEN. So you're more then likely to get your other stuff aside from more grind. But i have to go back to my main arguement (which you obviously feel is a bad one). These pve only skills are optional and increasing their strength is optional. The power/strength of your pve only skills has no impact on the guy next to you, and neither does his on you. Your arguement is that connecting pve only skills to title unbalances the game somehow. But it doesnt because the state of one persons pve only skills has NO impact on you or anyone around them. Their are completely personalised to that individual and they choose to increase their power or not through ranks in titles. These pve only skills are not required to play GWEN, factions, NF (aside from LB gaze) or prophercies. Aside from that one, they wont make it more or less possible to complete any of the 4 storylines ingame. What if they removed all the pve only skills tomorrow? would that kill the game and stop it from functioning? Ofcourse not! People would still finish the games, and still be able to do missions, quests, dungeons and farm and buy armor and weapons and live their merry lives! These pve only skills have NO impact on anything, other then making life a bit more interesting and maybe allowing a non monk to do some healing! Big woop! lord dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
Why are people only focusing on the non-essential grind aspects of GWEN, and yet no one is talking about the new locations, outposts, dungeons, quests, skills and hours of new content? There is far more to GWs and GWEN then just the non-essential stuff you can grind for. I personally think this shows the mentality of players in GWs over the years. People are more and more bothered about being able to easily access those purely athetic items or collectable items which might make them look nicer or their gameplay a bit more fun. But their not essential to the game. Lets ignore the hours and months of new gameplay that has been added to keep us entertained. Lets ignore the effort Anet put in and jut focus on the stuff thats not even important to completing the game or the storyline. Its a bit sad that people seem to want to focus on the negative side of things and leave the game, when there are alot more positive things been added. All this talk about grind pushing people away from the game is sad, because these things which people are complaining they need grind for are not necessities. New armor, prestige armor, weapons and pve only skills arent needed to play the game. Their just nice little touches that make it a bit more fun. So just because it takes some effort (OMG reachin rank 5 which is sooo hard to do < sarcasm), you complain and leave? Im on rank 5 on all races except vanguard and thats only after a week of playing!! Be realistic people. I now have access to most everything and I dont even want to use the pve only skills or even like the armors or the prestiage stuff. And no, im not a hard core player who lives and breaths GWs and is on every day for 24 hours. So dont bother making those comments! The simple fact is that once you get passed that rank 5 barrier (which is not hard and stop saying it is), you have access to everything and then its like playing any of the other campaigns where you just need gold and materials and to find locations. How many times does it have to be said.....It is the skills man, not the armor. The armor sucks, so that is not it. It is the skills. It is FORCING people to look for other games now. Anet is loosing the customer base. They will get a new one of players that know how to hit the C, spacebar well though, so should fit right in with the vision it seems. Please remember... I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me. lord dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
These pve only skills have NO impact on anything, other then making life a bit more interesting and maybe allowing a non monk to do some healing! Big woop!
I guess, if you play with yourself, they wouldn't. As soon as you enter a team, they do. Face it, the world works that way whether you believe it or not.
Please remember... I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
A Perfect Slayer
I dont mind the grind one bit cause for me after finishing the game I still want to do something to keep me busy until gw2 come out and we still have quite a ways before that happens so i dont mind at all
TabascoSauce
I think he knows that his argument of "optional" falls down.
We're back to Lawn Mower Simulator, what else is there to do in the game but do the same level over and over and over? Nothing. That's the problem with grind, and ANet seems to have anticipated this by the logic "we have maybe 12 hours of content, let us reward them for doing it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (draw breath)" You get the idea. His defense is that, this "again and again" thing is....... a game? Nice. Thanks! TabascoSauce lord dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
I think he knows that his argument of "optional" falls down.
We're back to Lawn Mower Simulator, what else is there to do in the game but do the same level over and over and over? Nothing. That's the problem with grind, and ANet seems to have anticipated this by the logic "we have maybe 12 hours of content, let us reward them for doing it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (draw breath)" You get the idea. His defense is that, this "again and again" thing is....... a game? Nice. Thanks! TabascoSauce LOL Please remember... I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
Darlichay Dalinar
Quote:
Originally Posted by malko050987
In that case, I want to FoW armor. I bought all the games, even got CE version of NF. I want FoW armor, because I PAID for the game >.> Why should I have to farm for weeks to get the materials and cash? No, I want it now. GIVE IT TO ME!!!
I'd say I understand where you're coming from and all... but I don't..
You HAVE access to said armor right after you ascend in any campaign. This is from progression, which is standard in all games for armor, weapons and etc. If you have the money, that's another thing... but that is also no one's fault but your own. (When I say "your" I mean in general; I'm not trying to attack you in particular.)
Bryant Again
Quote:
Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
|
Oh, just read this:
Quote:
Yes you can add more quests, more missions, more expansions! But that costs time, resources and money and Anet is trying to focus on a sequal.
If that's the case, I would've much rather they took their sweet time to release GW:EN with content instead of with filler.
But as you said, they can add more content whenever they wish, so not all my moneyz is wasted.
If you really could do it the way you describe, I wouldn't have a problem, since that's exactly what I'm asking for. It may even be the case for the Asura, which gives away oodles of rep for their primary quests, but it certainly isn't the case for the Vanguard.
But as you said, they can add more content whenever they wish, so not all my moneyz is wasted.
Quote:
I don't know how you did it, but I did exactly that. I haven't completed any dungeons, but I've completed all of the Ebon Vanguard quests and done a couple of grinding runs to boot, and I haven't even reached rank 4 yet. Even completing the dungeons won't net enough points to get to 5 - and even if it did, pushing the skills certainly WILL involve grind.|
These pve only skills are not required to play GWEN, factions, NF (aside from LB gaze) or prophercies. Aside from that one, they wont make it more or less possible to complete any of the 4 storylines ingame.
So are you saying that they *won't* make the game easier? If no, "Good", if yes, "..."
draxynnic
freakedoutfish, I'd have to say I'm just not understanding your attitude. You seem to be saying that you don't enjoy grind, but since you were able to put your nose to the grindstone and get to the rewards in a time period you didn't consider to be beyond the point of unreasonability, it's not a problem and everyone else should too.
But you still keep saying that you don't enjoy grind. Isn't Guild Wars supposed to be a game? Aren't games supposed to be fun? How, may I ask, is doing something you don't enjoy fun? I've expressed my feelings in the "How do I get R5 with Norn without grind" thread, but to summarise: I don't mind the rank requirements in and of themselves. I do mind that there doesn't seem to be a way to get them past a certain (fairly low) level without grinding - something which, if the posts are to be believed, no one on either side of this discussion actually enjoys! That said, referring to the PCGamer article in which GWEN and GW2 were announced, it is mentioned that ANet doesn't intend to just leave us with GWEN until GW2 - that with the abolishment of the campaign system, that a portion of their design team would be able to work in more SF-style content updates that they were unable to implement while working on the campaigns. Hopefully some of those will include new ways to gather faction - since correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if no-one actually likes the grind, it's just that some seem to find it... less unacceptable... than others.
Skyros
It's not grinding... you can get the required rank for the specific faction armor by picking up the bonus' while doing sidequests for each of the races.
The concept (at least to me), is that the respective faction is rewarding you for your assistance with their dilemmas. Of course, people are going to just try to grind it away by just grabbing bonus's in Drakker Lake or Grothmar Wardowns, etc. If you just take te time to do the sidequests and grab the bonus as you are doing them, it won't feel like grinding, but more like exploring the backstory for each faction. So in turn YES this game grinds because you make it.
draxynnic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyros
The concept (at least to me), is that the respective faction is rewarding you for your assistance with their dilemmas. Of course, people are going to just try to grind it away by just grabbing bonus's in Drakker Lake or Grothmar Wardowns, etc. If you just take te time to do the sidequests and grab the bonus as you are doing them, it won't feel like grinding, but more like exploring the backstory for each faction. So in turn YES this game grinds because you make it. |
If you really could do it the way you describe, I wouldn't have a problem, since that's exactly what I'm asking for. It may even be the case for the Asura, which gives away oodles of rep for their primary quests, but it certainly isn't the case for the Vanguard.
lord dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyros
It's not grinding... you can get the required rank for the specific faction armor by picking up the bonus' while doing sidequests for each of the races.
The concept (at least to me), is that the respective faction is rewarding you for your assistance with their dilemmas.
Of course, people are going to just try to grind it away by just grabbing bonus's in Drakker Lake or Grothmar Wardowns, etc. If you just take te time to do the sidequests and grab the bonus as you are doing them, it won't feel like grinding, but more like exploring the backstory for each faction.
So in turn YES this game grinds because you make it. Then let me ask a question. Why are there not posts on the best place to GRIND a title?
Please remember...
I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
The concept (at least to me), is that the respective faction is rewarding you for your assistance with their dilemmas.
Of course, people are going to just try to grind it away by just grabbing bonus's in Drakker Lake or Grothmar Wardowns, etc. If you just take te time to do the sidequests and grab the bonus as you are doing them, it won't feel like grinding, but more like exploring the backstory for each faction.
So in turn YES this game grinds because you make it. Then let me ask a question. Why are there not posts on the best place to GRIND a title?
Please remember...
I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
freekedoutfish
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Quote:
I guess, if you play with yourself, they wouldn't. As soon as you enter a team, they do. Face it, the world works that way whether you believe it or not.
Please remember...
I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me. You are all trying to argue your point by saying if a person doesnt have a high enough rank in a certain title, and then uses a pve only skill they are fundimentall useless in a group and you wouldnt accept them?
Which somehow makes the game unbalanced and unfair?
Aside from LB gaze (which doesnt actually increase damage per rank, it increase how many targets per rank so a higher rank isnt important) in Nightfall, what other aspect of the ENTIRE game requires you to actually use a pve only skill?
Give me one area (aside from when needing LB gaze), in the entire 3 campaigns and in GWEN when you need to use a pve only skill or it cant be done?
The answer is none!
PvE only skills do not create unbalance in the game. They only thing they seem to be creating is this l33t attitude of "either you have a high enough rank or you cant join us" which is complete bollicks. If I got that kind of attitude ingame id leave that pug and use someone else.
There is absolutely no reason ingame, in pve to be required to have a high rank in a title! Even LB gaze is still effective at rank 1, because higher ranks only make it hit other targets.
Please remember...
I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me. You are all trying to argue your point by saying if a person doesnt have a high enough rank in a certain title, and then uses a pve only skill they are fundimentall useless in a group and you wouldnt accept them?
Which somehow makes the game unbalanced and unfair?
Aside from LB gaze (which doesnt actually increase damage per rank, it increase how many targets per rank so a higher rank isnt important) in Nightfall, what other aspect of the ENTIRE game requires you to actually use a pve only skill?
Give me one area (aside from when needing LB gaze), in the entire 3 campaigns and in GWEN when you need to use a pve only skill or it cant be done?
The answer is none!
PvE only skills do not create unbalance in the game. They only thing they seem to be creating is this l33t attitude of "either you have a high enough rank or you cant join us" which is complete bollicks. If I got that kind of attitude ingame id leave that pug and use someone else.
There is absolutely no reason ingame, in pve to be required to have a high rank in a title! Even LB gaze is still effective at rank 1, because higher ranks only make it hit other targets.
lord dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
You are all trying to argue your point by saying if a person doesnt have a high enough rank in a certain title, and then uses a pve only skill they are fundimentall useless in a group and you wouldnt accept them?
Quote: Originally Posted by freekedoutfish Which somehow makes the game unbalanced and unfair? It does.
Quote: Originally Posted by freekedoutfish Aside from LB gaze (which doesnt actually increase damage per rank, it increase how many targets per rank so a higher rank isnt important) in Nightfall, what other aspect of the ENTIRE game requires you to actually use a pve only skill? Please look at the whole title. There is more effect then just LB gaze.
Quote: Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
Give me one area (aside from when needing LB gaze), in the entire 3 campaigns and in GWEN when you need to use a pve only skill or it cant be done?
Any and all elite zones now.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
PvE only skills do not create unbalance in the game. They only thing they seem to be creating is this l33t attitude of "either you have a high enough rank or you cant join us" which is complete bollicks. If I got that kind of attitude ingame id leave that pug and use someone else.
When teams have enough title huggers out there that require it, and there is no other way to play because the skills are overpowered, it effects it and unbalances the game. This is happening. You have stated you don't do elite areas. Try then and you will see.
freakedoutfish, I'd have to say I'm just not understanding your attitude. You seem to be saying that you don't enjoy grind, but since you were able to put your nose to the grindstone and get to the rewards in a time period you didn't consider to be beyond the point of unreasonability, it's not a problem and everyone else should too.Quote:
Hey, freeked, read this one again.
Quote: But you still keep saying that you don't enjoy grind. Isn't Guild Wars supposed to be a game? Aren't games supposed to be fun? How, may I ask, is doing something you don't enjoy fun? I've expressed my feelings in the "How do I get R5 with Norn without grind" thread, but to summarise: I don't mind the rank requirements in and of themselves. I do mind that there doesn't seem to be a way to get them past a certain (fairly low) level without grinding - something which, if the posts are to be believed, no one on either side of this discussion actually enjoys! That said, referring to the PCGamer article in which GWEN and GW2 were announced, it is mentioned that ANet doesn't intend to just leave us with GWEN until GW2 - that with the abolishment of the campaign system, that a portion of their design team would be able to work in more SF-style content updates that they were unable to implement while working on the campaigns. Hopefully some of those will include new ways to gather faction - since correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if no-one actually likes the grind, it's just that some seem to find it... less unacceptable... than others. Now that that is settled - Quote:
and I read:
Quote:
Tabasco if a skill was critical to the game, it would mean you couldnt complete a task, quest, dungeon, mission or elite zone or some other aspect without it.
Understand this... you can complete all 3 games and do all elite zones and do all dungeons without the use of any of the pve only skills (except LB gaze for abaddons minions). And you cannot deny that!!!! There for they are not critical to the game. Yes they are oober powerfull and no one is denying that, and its great that you want to use them in some way or another. But nothing and no-one is forcing you to use it and you dont need to use it. Can you not understand that? It is purely your choice to use them and it impacts no one but you. Yes having someone in your team with that skill maxed out is nice and yes it will help, but you do not need it and them to complete that part of the game. Why can you not understand that? Why do you keep insisting there is some priority to using these pve only skills? Why do you keep trying to say they critical to the gameplay when you know their not? You are only complaining about this, because you want these skills maxed out without any effort so you can use them in elite zones!! Its got nothing to do with balance in the slightest! TabascoSauce
Um, the phrase thinking critically would be best defined as "including all possible processes of reflecting upon a tangible or intangible item in order to form a solid judgment that reconciles scientific evidence with common sense."
You are interpreting critical as in, required to complete the game, which is not my argument.  I believe that elitism definitely exists and is a problem, and ANet seems to be encouraging it by allowing grind grind grind to build up super powerful skills, but that is lord dragon's thunder, and I will not steal it.Back to what I have been saying, which is a direct refutation of you, and all this malarkey about the grind extends the game nonsense. I am the one telling you that you're wrong. Remember the Advanced Lawnmower Simulator? Remember "clear Drakkar Lake again and again and again and again..."? Grind =/= game. I go out and mow my lawn every weekend, and that's grind. I get that $&*! for free. I'll do it for physical tangible results, like a nice looking lawn, but I'll be damned if I am going to do for some intangible game that was founded on the premise of no grind. I am not going to do it now, and I am not going to do it in GW2. I can get a vastly superior grind experience in say, LOTRO, which was build from the ground up to support it.We're back again to the same old thing I keep mentioning, and you keep trying to change the subject - that this is a clear trend to reward ad nausaeum zone clearing grind repeated again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. I do not like that. It is a bad idea. It violates the original principle of the game - that sold me on it. Skill > time. I like the game, and would prefer it to keep to its original premise. Level 20 max reached quickly is the best way to put it - and grind was not supposed to be in the game. You can face the fact, I'm going to protest grind in GW in any shape or form, whether you like it or not.Thanks! TabascoSauce
korcan
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
You can face the fact, I'm going to protest grind in GW in any shape or form, whether you like it or not.
considering all mmos have some form of grind, youre fighting a losing battle. if you dont like grind, dont play mmos. its just a suggestion but if you dont want grind, you should consider playing single player rpgs. there are some good ones out there with no grind whatsoever. xArcaeus
Well, being a completist going for 30+ maxed titles on my char, I'm happy to admit I will most likely be doing whatever necessary to max all these new GWEN titles. Why? Because I like to hit 'H' and see all those green bars, I guess :P. Am I doing it for 'teh uber PvE skills'? Absolutely not. My summoned Mursaat doesn't even have Spectral Agony, which is proof enough that if any of these maxed skills becomes unbalanced, the nerf hammer will smack it nicely. No one should worry about *needing* any of these, the game is really easy enough w/o them. They're even more unnecessary since your heroes can't even use them. The only skill worth grinding for IMO is triple shot. I was very happy when I reached that first Luxon title
 .As far as grinding to get more than ONE Onyx after 25 dungeon runs (and wanting all 11 types of Destroyer weapons for my HoM), that's just plain ridiculous. I'll finally have enough when I'm 120 years old. lord dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by nugzta
Skill > Time is BS. In order to be good at something, the more you dedicating yourself to it and invest more time to it, the better you are at doing that. Thats why my friend fail at math test because he rarely does math homeworks and exercises as well as only spends little time reading math textbooks. The same applies to everything else: sports, jobs, hobbies, etc.
First question I have is, why do we keep going back to a school mentality. Is everyone in school that is defending GWEN?
As for the second, if you friend had skill in math, he may get a great grade in it. I know, I did, right up to calc 2. Some are just good at certain things. Tell me you have never seen a born pianist, sports player, ect. They are out there. And last, but not least, math is required for a job and life. GW is not. It is supposed to be for pleasure, to be enjoyed, to have fun with. Obviously it fails at that with GWEN, but did well with the other areas. So, please remember, some of us are not in school anymore. We don't believe that GW will give us life lessons we can not live without.\ Please remember... I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
Stolen Souls
Quote:
Originally Posted by korcan
considering all mmos have some form of grind, youre fighting a losing battle.
if you dont like grind, dont play mmos. its just a suggestion but if you dont want grind, you should consider playing single player rpgs. there are some good ones out there with no grind whatsoever. Thing is, that at one time GW was able to boast that it HAD no grind. Those "other MMOs" always had it. It was one of the main selling points to a lot of us (including me), and it's one of the things that, you know....made GW...crap, what's the word?....oh right...DIFFERENT! You're basically admitting now that it's just another clone of every other MMO out there. How is that a good thing? :/ When the only argument left is "if you don't like it, play another game"...it's a kinda bad sign. >.>
BlackSephir
Quote:
Originally Posted by korcan
considering all mmos have some form of grind, youre fighting a losing battle.
if you dont like grind, dont play mmos. its just a suggestion but if you dont want grind, you should consider playing single player rpgs. there are some good ones out there with no grind whatsoever. Breaking news: Prophecies didn't (still doesn't) have grind. More after this. Whoops, forgot that Proph was utter failure- look, no grind and only 2 more chapters, 1 expanion and a sequel coming in... It's official, MMO's without grind don't sell Whoops #2 and edit, I said 2 expansions ;d Silly me |
