Well, you could play a MM in the tourney if you wanted. Take a pet, let it get slaughtered, exploit corpse, raise pet, repeat. Why you would want to waste the time, well that's a different question. Doesn't mean you can't though.
The main difference to survival, is take some defense. I've seen plenty of people (especially ele's) run like 7 fire attack spells and a res. Take weakness, wards etc and giving your heroes insignia's and runes. They make a huge difference. All my ele's carry ward vs melee, it only takes two points in earth for a 10 sec ward, easy to get using junk points leftover. And MM insignia keeps your MM alive a long time. Also, apart from a sup death for your MM and maybe a sup fire for SF, there's not really much need for anything but minors. If you're running multiple sups, you're just asking to get spiked.
And make use of the titles. The norn title, combined with ursan form for example, takes you easily over 800 hp. And it covers your henches as well. And the asuran one, gives you a ton of extra energy. The ebon one will have you slaughtering charr quick as, and the deldrimor gives you like sup vamp weaps against the destroyers. Even at pretty low levels.
Anyway, with that, I've tanked whole mobs of stuff (sometimes I swear 50 guys just rush you), usually since I'm too lazy to pull or wait for patrol patterns. Course for most places I run two SF ele's and Olias as MM. Or a N/Rit splinter/mark of pain. So the more the merrier
SerenitySilverstar
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2006
10 Sep 2007 at 01:11 - 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by knoll
Know what creatures do and adjust to it. Simple.
Heck yeah. Undead = smiting damage. Destroyers = immunity to fire, more damage from cold. Eles need to have enchantments stripped. Learn ya monsters.
Burst Cancel
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2006
Domain of Broken Game Mechanics
10 Sep 2007 at 01:49 - 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Not necessarily. Even using flagging/pulling techniques, there were times where I saw a monk hero with 10% morale boost go down in less than six hits. After that, the second monk hero couldn't keep up and wiped before the first one was rezzed. And then it was the full party wipe.
Prot Spirit guarantees 10 hits before death. Nevermind that with two monks, it takes severe, concentrated pressure, combined with enchantment removal, to actually take down any single target. In areas with strong enchantment hate, consider bringing ZB monks or Holy Haste healers for the cheap/fast spike heals. However, there are very few areas that feature enough enchantment removal to negate prot monks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
The same goes for PvE. I don't want to run a build or use skill sets that everyone else is using just to be able to play through dungeons or missions. I want to play the builds I have used through each of the three campaigns in the last 2 and half years because those are the ones I have had the most fun with, and enjoy playing. Of course not every possible choice is going to work, such as loading up a Warrior's Swordsmanship attribute, but using an Axe with Hammer Master skills. That's just common sense. However, upon building and learning to use a great Hammer Warrior, I shouldn't get to an area that basically says, "Sorry, all mobs here are Hammer Immune, you are now useless to your party, go try something else." To me, that's just a cop out on the creator's part. It should be up to them to make the area challenging, even to a Hammer Warrior and not just exclude them from all the fun.
As I stated above, GW allows you to pick your tools. Therefore, in order to be difficult, the game must, to some degree, force you to pick the better tools. This degree is largely what determines difficulty in GW PvE. Again, not all skills and combinations are equally good. Therefore, if an area can be beaten using sub-optimal skills, it must, by definition, be easy when using optimal skills. A large part of GW is considering what the enemy is using, and bringing skills to account for that. Even so, there is some variation. For instance, in dealing with boss elementalists you can succeed in two main ways: 1) interrupts or 2) damage reduction. The game doesn't force you to take one over the other, but it does require you to compensate for the enemy's overpowered damage in some way.
Basically, by asking for build diversity, you are asking for the game to be made easier. Given that a large number of players (at least, the ones that frequent forums) already find the game unacceptably easy, I don't see any reason to do that. Rather, those who are having trouble should either improve their level of play, or stick to areas that they can beat.
Vl Vl D
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Feb 2007
Australia
[DVDF]
10 Sep 2007 at 02:43 - 84
I plAyed with my warrior and found it easy ,but when I took a caster into the game it got alot harder.I dont like how the tank hench runs off alowing all the monster to run past.
Vl Vl D
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Feb 2007
Australia
[DVDF]
10 Sep 2007 at 02:43 - 85
oops dbl post ftl
blue.rellik
Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2007
Melbourne, Australia
None
W/
10 Sep 2007 at 02:47 - 86
Run Dual [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill]
You will not regret it
crazybanshee
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jun 2006
Look out!
E/
10 Sep 2007 at 03:23 - 87
I don't believe any GW quests, dungeons, or missions are too hard. I've hero/henchied the majority of them, all 3 campaigns +gwen, done all the gwen quests and dungeons with heros and henchies, and that includes getting legendary guardian and vanquisher. As much as I hate to sound rude, if you're having so much trouble that you can barely do anything, maybe you should go out with an experienced person who can show you what you're doing wrong. Because you obviously are.
Spazzer
Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
USA
Team Asshat [Hat]
Mo/E
10 Sep 2007 at 03:35 - 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanessa Dwager
polycrap had me cursing in every language I know.
Polymock is just 1v1 duels against AI. You practically have the same skillbars. :V If you're finding the rest of the game easier than Polymock, then your BUILDS are stronger than your skills as a player.
natuxatu
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
Wisconsin
Rt/Mo
10 Sep 2007 at 04:08 - 89
Um yeah rage quitters ftl. I've said this before but I think (and I like the fact) that GWEN seems to be anit rage quit. Meaning dunegons and stuff.. there are those who will give up the first second they die. But because of the rez points.. those of us who continue to plow forward will mostliley succeed and thus be rewarded.
glountz
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Nov 2005
W/Mo
10 Sep 2007 at 06:12 - 90
For those claiming EoTN is not hard, indeed it is. People not having the three campaigns will have a lot of trouble finishing it. Remember that, one of the most prized Dungeon Boss finisher, Broad Head Arrow, is a FACTIONS elite. Zho uses it, but very randomly. Not having factions means a lot of trouble finishing any dungeon.
And even if you're not going dungeoning, only doing the main Quest, you will eventually face Cyndr the Mountain Hearth who is the most painful boss in the whole GWEN expansion, especially if you are alone with H/H.
No, GWEN is certainly not newbie friendly (but it wasn't designed to).
I clearly advise to unlock most skills of the game (i'm personnally UAX) through the whole campaign before playing EoTN. If you lack more than 50% of them you're screwed.
Floski
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Rank Three Plus Pug [deer]
W/
10 Sep 2007 at 06:24 - 91
Don't have factions for BHA? Bring the interupt henchy. She has it. Problem solved. Don't have LoD? Bring Mhenlo, he's got it. They give you all the tools you need to breeze through this game.
Cebe
The 5th Celestial Boss
Join Date: Jul 2006
Inverness, Scotland
The Cult of Scaro [WHO]
E/
10 Sep 2007 at 07:37 - 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
They can be very challenging, but certainly not impossible. They take much more thinking and strategy than the standard "Charrrrrrrge riiiight innnn!!!" tactic that seems to have become the norm.
Not strictly true. The best way we came up with for doing Frostmaw's Burrows was to let Pyre Fierceshot wammo charge right in and take the hit of the whole fruit when the wurms popped to to "surprise you". At least that way only one party member had 60% DP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
Powerstone of Courage FTW
Yep, people should never go into a dungeon without one.
In the few instances that we have been party-wiped and the mob has camped by the res shrine I let them have their fun, waited until we were all at 60%DP, then used a powerstone and after being ressed Ran far away. Regrouped. Slaughtered them with my new found 10% morale boost.
tmakinen
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
www.mybearfriend.net
Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
E/
10 Sep 2007 at 09:00 - 93
Personally I've found normal mode GW:EN to be c-space easy in the sense that when you have 3 well configured heroes and a proper selection of 4 henches, the entire storyline can be wanded through without using any skills (with the exception of some animal form skills that are mandatory for the storyline). The only hiccup was Cyndr where I had to resign on the first round when I saw that the selection of heroes and henches just wasn't going to cut it because of insufficient DPS, so I made some better choices and flawlessed Cyndr the next time (didn't need any skills there either, just run the kegs while H+H took care of the rest). So, if you find the content too difficult, there's something fundamentally wrong with the team build. Most likely there is too much direct damage at the expense of passive defense, making the build fragile (the 'trinity' mentality discussed elsewhere as well).
Never needed any consumables either.
Pwny Ride
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Oct 2006
Aussieland
Prime Players Of [OSHA] ~ [dth] alliance. <3
Me/E
10 Sep 2007 at 09:35 - 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by glountz
For those claiming EoTN is not hard, indeed it is. People not having the three campaigns will have a lot of trouble finishing it. Remember that, one of the most prized Dungeon Boss finisher, Broad Head Arrow, is a FACTIONS elite. Zho uses it, but very randomly. Not having factions means a lot of trouble finishing any dungeon.
And even if you're not going dungeoning, only doing the main Quest, you will eventually face Cyndr the Mountain Hearth who is the most painful boss in the whole GWEN expansion, especially if you are alone with H/H.
No, GWEN is certainly not newbie friendly (but it wasn't designed to).
I clearly advise to unlock most skills of the game (i'm personnally UAX) through the whole campaign before playing EoTN. If you lack more than 50% of them you're screwed.
You make it sound like Broad Head Arrow is the only elite that has any use in GW:EN. I finished GW:EN and Zho did very little in the way of boss killing. She helped when it came to monks (i bring frustration, her dazed does work well), but when a backfire does the job faster...
Totally agree, Cyndr was a complete pain in the ass the first time round, second time after reading his attack patterns and watching the pyroclasm recharge, i psychic distracted his attacks, leaving him totally useless (yes, this does work, despite people claiming that you can not disable boss skills.)
Not to mention bringing my own personal prot spirit, which is nearly fool-proof.
No you arent screwed if you dont have factions. Sure some of the skills there can make it easier, but the core skills still manage to do the job the best. For example, Maelstrom which is core, completely shatters destroyers. This is core, let alone water magic, which i dare say is one of the most unfavoured elementalist magic lines in PvE. And this spell is as core as you can get. Of course this is only one example, there are more, but i really cant be bothered listing them all
-Loki-
Forge Runner
Join Date: Oct 2005
10 Sep 2007 at 09:42 - 95
The only part that's given me difficulty is Shards of Orr.
Vanessa Dwager
Academy Page
Join Date: Jun 2005
N/R
10 Sep 2007 at 10:23 - 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazzer
Polymock is just 1v1 duels against AI. You practically have the same skillbars. :V If you're finding the rest of the game easier than Polymock, then your BUILDS are stronger than your skills as a player.
I made all my builds from scratch and I have no problem running them. My problem is when someone throws me their build and says "Run it".
So I guess my player "Skills" are in my builds. Tactical planning over tactical fighting.
Hanok Odbrook
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
Tyria
Real Millennium Group
Mo/N
10 Sep 2007 at 10:33 - 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
In the few instances that we have been party-wiped and the mob has camped by the res shrine I let them have their fun, waited until we were all at 60%DP, then used a powerstone and after being ressed Ran far away. Regrouped. Slaughtered them with my new found 10% morale boost.
But why should we have a need for the powerstone? Why should we have the need to have a morale boost every 25 kills? To me, that's just the designer taking the easy way out in truly making a challenging area for a player. The appeal for me for the original CRPG's (and why I still play them today) like Wizardry and Eye of the Beholder that each new level was slightly harder than the previous one, but just by using the proper tactics, I didn't have to worry about getting slaughtered around every corner, because the games were truly balanced, and each level properly prepared you for the ultimate meeting with the endgame boss. Sure I lost a couple of characters when playing for the very first time, but afterwards, never died again. And I never felt I had any less fun or less of a challenge by not dying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen
The only hiccup was Cyndr where I had to resign on the first round when I saw that the selection of heroes and henches just wasn't going to cut it because of insufficient DPS, so I made some better choices and flawlessed Cyndr the next time (didn't need any skills there either, just run the kegs while H+H took care of the rest). So, if you find the content too difficult, there's something fundamentally wrong with the team build. Most likely there is too much direct damage at the expense of passive defense, making the build fragile (the 'trinity' mentality discussed elsewhere as well).
And this is exactly what I am talking about. First, GW doesn't really prepare you for upcoming challenges. A pyro works great in the colder regions, but pop on down into the Drakkar Dungeon and face a Fire oriented boss - your pyro is now useless. I want a system that allows us to continue to use the pyro effectively as long as your party is using proper tactics, and can use skill and attack combinations to bring out the effectiveness of a pyro even when it's fire against fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
As I stated above, GW allows you to pick your tools. Therefore, in order to be difficult, the game must, to some degree, force you to pick the better tools. This degree is largely what determines difficulty in GW PvE. Again, not all skills and combinations are equally good. Therefore, if an area can be beaten using sub-optimal skills, it must, by definition, be easy when using optimal skills. A large part of GW is considering what the enemy is using, and bringing skills to account for that. Even so, there is some variation. For instance, in dealing with boss elementalists you can succeed in two main ways: 1) interrupts or 2) damage reduction. The game doesn't force you to take one over the other, but it does require you to compensate for the enemy's overpowered damage in some way.
Basically, by asking for build diversity, you are asking for the game to be made easier. Given that a large number of players (at least, the ones that frequent forums) already find the game unacceptably easy, I don't see any reason to do that. Rather, those who are having trouble should either improve their level of play, or stick to areas that they can beat.
Build diversity doesn't necessarily mean an easier game. Whenever a subject like this comes up, take a look at the responses. The vast majority sit in two camps - one agrees that many parts of the game are simply overpowered and frustrating to the normal, casual player. The other camp finds all areas of the game far too easy. Only a small minority actually find a decent challange throughout. I had the exact same experience with Factions. Once leaving the island, I though the entire mainland was way too overpowered, and the leap of difficulty from Shing Jea to Kaineng was too large to properly prepare a newer player for the challenge. However, once Heroes came about, I basically breezed through the entire campaign with my D/A. That tells me something is wrong here. The way to fix this dicotemy is to remove the dependance of making higher level mobs tougher by giving them higher Offensive capabilities, and using larger numbers to artificially increase the difficulty level of the area.
As you say above, the current system forces you into making certain selections as you reach the higher levels of the game. Using the David and Goliath example, in GW David would never be able to defeat Goliath. The only way to bring Goliath down would be with another Cyclops who has a larger club, and perhaps some form of shield to help ward off some of Goliath's damage dealing. It's really too late to adjust GW's combat with a major overhaul, but what I am looking for in GW2 is a way to give David a shot at Goliath without making him a pushover for another cyclops. We need to take away the reliance of Goliath's ability to do 500+ damage with each blow, and make him a tougher defensive character. This way, in a new combat system, even a weaker party has a chance to bring him down as long as they work together as a team and use the good tactics.
We already have bits and pieces of the total system I would like to see in place - the natural abilities of Bosses such as their Health regeneration and reduced hex/condition time. These are great defensive capabilites that are far too underpowered in my opinion, and variations should be used for every monster in the game. Monster specific skills - I am glad to see more of these in EotN, but still would like to see more reliance on these skills rather than mobs using common skills. Naturally, bosses would still need to carry elites for us to cap unless another system was implemented for their acquisition. The various Blessings and Title enhancements are also part of this new system I would like to have, but let's make more of them dependant on the tactics and skill choices of each party member.
Let's take a Warrior and an Assassin as examples. Assassin's have built in skill chains as a part of their profession - the Lead, Off Hand, and Dual Attacks. Warrior's can equate this chain by say using Hammer Bash with Crushing Blow, or beginner's sword skills Sever Artery, Gash, and Final Thrust. Nice attack chains using your primary profession and attribute, and able to a nice moderate amount of damage/degen. This would the the base for the new system. Now, Let's say we have the good ole W/Mo. Let's give him Bane Sig or Sig of Judgement with Crushing Blow. Now we have someone making use of his secondary prof and combining it with his primary prof skills. There should be a little extra bonus for this in damage for this chain. The same for the Assassin - instead of using a typical skill chain, he makes a chain of attacks using both is prime and secondary profession skills - he gets a bonus or a buff for being more creative with his attacks.
Now let's say that Warrior uses Sig of Judgement against a foe, then follows up with Crushing Blow, then a teammate of his comes in with a skill that is usable against a foe with Deep Wound. Not only does the Warrior make use of both his professions, but he has essentially set up a possible new chain of attacks for a second character - this should offer even bigger bonuses for the characters and party.
Essentially, the game would be rewarding a great working party just as it does now, but even a weaker party would still stand a chance when using proper tactics and skill chains - it would just take longer for them to take down their foe than the party who makes multiple and multi-character chains of attack. So let's take an end-dungeon boss, and reduce his devastating offensive capabilities, but really buff up defensive and inherent abilities, making him damn near impossible to kill. Without using attack chains or buffs, or what have you, it should be a stale mate between the party and the boss, niether one having the advantage nor being able to kill the other. However, the weaker party comes in using individual chains of attacks, dealing slightly more damage and giving themselves slightly more defensive buffs. They keep this up, and in the long run end up taking down the boss. Now bring in that powered up party - even with high damaging skills, they don't have an advantage over this boss unless they begin to work together to set up chains of attack among themselves. The first chain would eliminate the boss' natural healing ability, the second chain would eliminate a defensive spell, the next chain would take a major chunk of health from the boss, and so on and so forth. Not only would this party be getting bigger rewards, it would make combat a lot more than just call target and afk until the battle is won. The party would have to continue to make great skill chains to counter the boss' defensive capabilities.
Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace
freekedoutfish
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2006
E/
10 Sep 2007 at 11:04 - 98
If your honestly suggesting that GWEN is harder then factions or nightfall, you are doing something very, very wrong!
I've been henching most of GWEN for a week now and even during the preview even it was a walk in the park. Even most of the dungeons and quests are pretty easy and they havent took any special tactics.
Ive generally used the same AI team for all of the expansion!
Myself and another SF hero, 3 monks an MM and 2 warriors. It seems to work and I've never had any huge issues with anything.
Nightfall's ROT was the only real difficult area in all 3 campaigns. Most other places are a piss take in terms of ease! You just have to re-adjut to what creature does what and take out healers and nukers first and then pick off the rest.
GWEN and the other campaigns really arent that hard.
the_jos
Forge Runner
Join Date: Jun 2006
Hard Mode Legion [HML]
N/
10 Sep 2007 at 11:29 - 99
Quote:
First, GW doesn't really prepare you for upcoming challenges. A pyro works great in the colder regions, but pop on down into the Drakkar Dungeon and face a Fire oriented boss - your pyro is now useless. I want a system that allows us to continue to use the pyro effectively as long as your party is using proper tactics, and can use skill and attack combinations to bring out the effectiveness of a pyro even when it's fire against fire.
When you fail, just look at why you failed.
I consider taking a certain profession a strategic decision and the skills a tactical one.
Running a pyro is part of tactics.
Switching to ice or air is part of of the same tactics.
I do understand your argument on combinations but there is no need.
You now know a pyro is not good against that type of enemy.
As are pyro's against a lot of enemies.
On the most used build, SF, it's the combination of SF and MS that does the trick. Both have reduced effectiveness against high armor enemies but MS keeps them shut down so you can SF away.
Armor ignoring damage has always been better but is less spammable most of the time. It's for a reason that SS is considered one of the most powerfull PvE skills.
If one choice does not work out, try an other.
My strategic choice in EotN was running high armor builds (W/P/R) with physical damage and damage buffs like GftE and FTW (caster myself).
This failed a couple of times requiring me to adjust their skills (tactical).
I had to use an alternative team build once or twice (strategics).
People who cannot adapt to these kinds of decisions fill fail and find the game difficult.
However, each campaign learned that some skills are more effective than others and some missions required alternative strategies.
It only seems that people have forgotten that with the introduction of cookie-cutter builds.
Mindtrust
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
Stockholm, Sweden
Wolffestar Clan - WSC
Mo/
10 Sep 2007 at 11:34 - 100
I get quite mad when i see all of theese people posting, that you're crap, and don't know how to play.
Most of the game is very doable with almost any build, except for the end dugeon bosses. They have made me upset quit many times, you sweep through the cave and then get stuck for 30min at the end boss with 60% dp.
But if you try to bring a few Protective Spirits (2-3) and 2 people with interupts it makes the end dungeon bosses much easier.
Hope it helps!
Good luck
Lady Erighan
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Defenders of Gods
E/Me
10 Sep 2007 at 11:56 - 101
My wife and I beat GW:EN without having to do any quests or missions more than once. The only difficult part was fighting The Great Destroyer. Pretty easy game if you ask me.
SotiCoto
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Drazach Thicket
Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]
10 Sep 2007 at 11:59 - 102
Eye of the North needs more puzzles; less slug-fests.
Dungeon quests like the Elusive Golemancer one are FTW... though even that didn't even begin to challenge my mind...
freekedoutfish
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2006
E/
10 Sep 2007 at 12:06 - 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindtrust
I get quite mad when i see all of theese people posting, that you're crap, and don't know how to play.
Most of the game is very doable with almost any build, except for the end dugeon bosses. They have made me upset quit many times, you sweep through the cave and then get stuck for 30min at the end boss with 60% dp.
But if you try to bring a few Protective Spirits (2-3) and 2 people with interupts it makes the end dungeon bosses much easier.
Hope it helps!
Good luck
Plus the ample supply of consumables which remove all death penalty!
darktyco
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2006
10 Sep 2007 at 12:38 - 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
Plus the ample supply of consumables which remove all death penalty!
This is my advice to this player also. Craft some of the consumables that remove all of your DP and go at it. Also, like others have said, study up on efficient builds and countering the builds of your foes.
Personally I think a lot of GWEN is a bit easy, but there is a lot of good/moderate challenge and some really tough spots too. That said, I can see how it will be a challenge for some players. But being a "high-end" expansion for experienced characters, it should be.
SotiCoto
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Drazach Thicket
Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]
10 Sep 2007 at 12:38 - 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
Plus the ample supply of consumables which remove all death penalty!
Reliance on consumables is an undesirable character trait....
While I agree they are useful... I'd rather have a build that doesn't end up on 60% DP in the first place than one which does then uses a Powerstone of Courage or whatever to fix it.
reverse_oreo
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Dec 2005
Scars Meadows [SmS] Officer (not recruiting)
10 Sep 2007 at 13:34 - 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by nw5221
Who's crying? There' a lot of thruth in what I wrote. But you know, I actually spent about 70K on runes and upped the health on my heroes about 65 points. And I have to tell you that seemed to make a BIG difference. - Thanks for the tip.
Great on the hero thing, every hero you bring should be runed up and such. But you were crying about the difficulty of the game. Every single expansion/chapter that has come out is getting more and more EASY. I remember doing the ring of fire missions and getting wiped horribly, but with the addition of new prof's and skills we can walk through those missions on HARD MODE without dying once. The skills that have been put into this game make it easy. I mean, i bring lina and mhenlo as my monks 99% of the time in GWEN and they do just fine. Really, this game isnt hard. I dont know what else to tell you.
GloryFox
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2006
Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be
Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind
10 Sep 2007 at 14:37 - 107
If you are finding PvE difficult you can always use overpowered PvE skills. These skills are so overpowered having an elite in your bar is almost optional. Of course you may have to clear Drakkar lake 80x to make them effective.
Gargle Blaster
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2005
10 Sep 2007 at 14:46 - 108
This thread is not about completing the game, or repeatable missions its about the dungeons.
So please dont say the you can hero hench to solve all you problems... heros and hench c/n carry kegs...
SotiCoto
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Drazach Thicket
Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]
10 Sep 2007 at 14:47 - 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryFox
If you are finding PvE difficult you can always use overpowered PvE skills. These skills are so overpowered having an elite in your bar is almost optional. Of course you may have to clear Drakkar lake 80x to make them effective.
Some of them are overpowered.
Many of them are not.
Very few of them can fit effectively into a decent Assassin build without there being something better to use.
But why should we have a need for the powerstone? Why should we have the need to have a morale boost every 25 kills? To me, that's just the designer taking the easy way out in truly making a challenging area for a player.
The need for the Powerstone is as I described. I tried the Dungeon Vloxen Excavations yesterday, with Heroes and Henchmen. Everything was going just peachy until near the end of Level 2...then you get into one of those situations when the hench use Aura of 'Tardness. A Necro, Jagged Bones, boss decided we were going to die. The hench decided that was the time to act up, despite acting impeccably throughout the rest of the dungeon. Partywipe followed partywipe whilst the Necro boss and his mass of minions camped by the res shrine. At 60% Death Penalty...I activated the Powerstone...and the Boss got wiped.
I'm not denying that for the most part, this game is extremely easy, but there are occaisions when a Powerstone comes in useful. There is no fun, in my mind, of going through a long mission / dungeon and being wiped close to the end...only having to restart and do it all over again. Of course people should gear their builds, and their heroe's builds, around surviving...and then choose appropriate henchmen which complement the heroes as well as possible...but it still doesn't completely eliminate the chance of a partywipe due to SHFS (Sudden Hero Failure Syndrome).
But do not fear, for those who like to have a hard time getting through a game I'm sure Hard Mode will be just around the corner. And when I say "just around the corner", of course, I mean Anet's version of "just around the corner".
Quote:
Originally Posted by SotiCoto
Very few of them can fit effectively into a decent Assassin build without there being something better to use.
Very few of them can fit effectively into any already decent build in my opinion. I rarely see a point to using a PvE-Only skill over all the skills I'm used to using...and it annoys me I need to take Light of Deldrimor into Dungeons when I go in with Heroes/Hench to find treasures. The only skill I've found a fun use for at the moment is Pain Inverter, when my MEsmer was farming Ebon Vanguard points, that skill alone can cap a siege devourer.
xArcaeus
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Sep 2007
Can't Stand Idiots (CSI)
R/
10 Sep 2007 at 16:14 - 112
Let me say that cookie cutter builds are the bane of GW players; they're really a naive concept that gives inexperienced players too much confidence that they'll beat the game easily. Personally, I hate using them, and feel you really need to skill you bar yourself after experimenting and learning what works sometimes, always, and hardly ever in different situations. In GWEN, the AoE spikes are quite extraordinary, with high level eles spamming Meteor Shower and Fire Storm (I bet that's what has frustrated a lot of players). So, a simple solution is to either interrupt that 5 second cast (easy once u learn), or run once you see those flames coming from the sky. H/Hing requires a bit more movement than standing still and attacking in GWEN, so don't be afraid to run away to a safe zone, since the AoE dmg from the eles, exploding ooze, charr rangers, and scythe attacks are so bad. Even with the right builds, your heroes and henchies will all stick together and make it impossible to outheal the damage. Solution: Interrupt big spells, if not -- move 15 feet away and continue the battle. Also, attack the Eles first, then the monks, then the rest of them, you will have a MUCH easier time.
As far as hepful tips go, I ran through all of GWEN and 14 of the dungeons so far (without using any of the consumables or retrying, honest!) using this setup:
Myself - R/x As Glass Arrows and Interrupt (triple shot ftw!)
MoW - N/x Curses necro with SS and other AoE curses
Livia - N/x Aura of Lich MM
Vekk - E/Me SF Ele with 2 interrupts
Henchmen: Herta, Mhenlo, Lina, Zho.
Yes, I laughed when I entered the Ooze Pit and Livia was bored out of her mind with no corpses to mess with, and rofled with Vekk was furious that he couldn't do dmg to Destroyers, but it all worked out, cause my party has a contigency plan for *most* things. Try a setup that is well rounded, and not just an army of W/Mo's, and bring plenty of interrupts, u should do fine .
Burst Cancel
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2006
Domain of Broken Game Mechanics
10 Sep 2007 at 16:21 - 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
And this is exactly what I am talking about. First, GW doesn't really prepare you for upcoming challenges. A pyro works great in the colder regions, but pop on down into the Drakkar Dungeon and face a Fire oriented boss - your pyro is now useless. I want a system that allows us to continue to use the pyro effectively as long as your party is using proper tactics, and can use skill and attack combinations to bring out the effectiveness of a pyro even when it's fire against fire.
Except here's the problem: even if the game provided you ways to make fire damage effective against fire-resistant enemies, you wouldn't think to take those additional support skills with you in a cold-oriented area. Why would you bother to account for fire-resistant enemies in an area where all the enemies are weak to fire?
In other words, you've failed to grasp the crux of your own argument - rapidly changing enemy conditions that force different combinations of skills. It isn't a matter of making fire effective against fire - it's a matter of having to make fire effective against cold, fire, lightning, etc. within the same area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Build diversity doesn't necessarily mean an easier game. Whenever a subject like this comes up, take a look at the responses. The vast majority sit in two camps - one agrees that many parts of the game are simply overpowered and frustrating to the normal, casual player. The other camp finds all areas of the game far too easy. Only a small minority actually find a decent challange throughout. I had the exact same experience with Factions. Once leaving the island, I though the entire mainland was way too overpowered, and the leap of difficulty from Shing Jea to Kaineng was too large to properly prepare a newer player for the challenge. However, once Heroes came about, I basically breezed through the entire campaign with my D/A. That tells me something is wrong here. The way to fix this dicotemy is to remove the dependance of making higher level mobs tougher by giving them higher Offensive capabilities, and using larger numbers to artificially increase the difficulty level of the area.
Shing Jea is substantially more challenging than Pre-Searing, and the rest of Cantha is roughly comparable in difficulty to post-Ascension Prophecies.
Monster numbers per group has actually not significantly increased since Prophecies. In point of fact, groups in later areas are more difficult for exactly the right reasons: they are balanced teams including frontline, midline, and backline. Monster density per area is largely irrelevant, because playing correctly means you'll only ever be engaging one group at a time anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
As you say above, the current system forces you into making certain selections as you reach the higher levels of the game. Using the David and Goliath example, in GW David would never be able to defeat Goliath. The only way to bring Goliath down would be with another Cyclops who has a larger club, and perhaps some form of shield to help ward off some of Goliath's damage dealing. It's really too late to adjust GW's combat with a major overhaul, but what I am looking for in GW2 is a way to give David a shot at Goliath without making him a pushover for another cyclops. We need to take away the reliance of Goliath's ability to do 500+ damage with each blow, and make him a tougher defensive character. This way, in a new combat system, even a weaker party has a chance to bring him down as long as they work together as a team and use the good tactics.
This is just handwaving, really. First of all, your analogy is incorrect. The players are always David, because we are strictly weaker than the monsters - we cannot be level 30, we do not do 200+ damage per hit, and we do not have innate abilities like knockdown immunity. The right analogy would be David beating Goliath with a slingshot, or beating him with an assault rifle. Seen this way, you begin to realize the issue - if David can do it with a slingshot, it must necessarily be child's play if he has the rifle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
We already have bits and pieces of the total system I would like to see in place - the natural abilities of Bosses such as their Health regeneration and reduced hex/condition time. These are great defensive capabilites that are far too underpowered in my opinion, and variations should be used for every monster in the game. Monster specific skills - I am glad to see more of these in EotN, but still would like to see more reliance on these skills rather than mobs using common skills. Naturally, bosses would still need to carry elites for us to cap unless another system was implemented for their acquisition. The various Blessings and Title enhancements are also part of this new system I would like to have, but let's make more of them dependant on the tactics and skill choices of each party member.
Let's take a Warrior and an Assassin as examples. Assassin's have built in skill chains as a part of their profession - the Lead, Off Hand, and Dual Attacks. Warrior's can equate this chain by say using Hammer Bash with Crushing Blow, or beginner's sword skills Sever Artery, Gash, and Final Thrust. Nice attack chains using your primary profession and attribute, and able to a nice moderate amount of damage/degen. This would the the base for the new system. Now, Let's say we have the good ole W/Mo. Let's give him Bane Sig or Sig of Judgement with Crushing Blow. Now we have someone making use of his secondary prof and combining it with his primary prof skills. There should be a little extra bonus for this in damage for this chain. The same for the Assassin - instead of using a typical skill chain, he makes a chain of attacks using both is prime and secondary profession skills - he gets a bonus or a buff for being more creative with his attacks.
Now let's say that Warrior uses Sig of Judgement against a foe, then follows up with Crushing Blow, then a teammate of his comes in with a skill that is usable against a foe with Deep Wound. Not only does the Warrior make use of both his professions, but he has essentially set up a possible new chain of attacks for a second character - this should offer even bigger bonuses for the characters and party.
Such bonuses already exist - it's called synergy. Some skills create conditions that are required for other skills. The "bonus" you get for this is the fact that conditional skills are generally stronger than non-conditional skills. Since I'm a monk, I'll pull out one really obvious example: Dwayna's Kiss. Normally, this is a pretty inefficient heal - worse than Orison, in fact. However, its effectiveness improves rapidly with enchantment or hex stacking. You can't really control hex stacking, but you can control enchantment stacking. Using Kiss on a skillbar with lots of enchantments (especially party-wide ones like Aegis), or on characters that use a lot of their own enchantments (e.g., Dervishes), nets you incredible bonuses in the form of vastly improved healing efficiency.
This synergy bonus effect you're talking about already exists, and in fact is exactly what determines the effectiveness of a build to a large degree. For another example, consider the vaunted Searing Flames - this skill has great synergy with itself, as well as a number of other skills. SF eles have terrible damage when used on their own, because one or two of every three casts is used to reapply burning, rather than to deal damage. Damage output rapidly increases when there are multiple eles using Searing Flames, or when combined with other skills that cause burning - notably, Mark of Rodgort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Essentially, the game would be rewarding a great working party just as it does now, but even a weaker party would still stand a chance when using proper tactics and skill chains - it would just take longer for them to take down their foe than the party who makes multiple and multi-character chains of attack. So let's take an end-dungeon boss, and reduce his devastating offensive capabilities, but really buff up defensive and inherent abilities, making him damn near impossible to kill. Without using attack chains or buffs, or what have you, it should be a stale mate between the party and the boss, niether one having the advantage nor being able to kill the other. However, the weaker party comes in using individual chains of attacks, dealing slightly more damage and giving themselves slightly more defensive buffs. They keep this up, and in the long run end up taking down the boss. Now bring in that powered up party - even with high damaging skills, they don't have an advantage over this boss unless they begin to work together to set up chains of attack among themselves. The first chain would eliminate the boss' natural healing ability, the second chain would eliminate a defensive spell, the next chain would take a major chunk of health from the boss, and so on and so forth. Not only would this party be getting bigger rewards, it would make combat a lot more than just call target and afk until the battle is won. The party would have to continue to make great skill chains to counter the boss' defensive capabilities.
You haven't avoided the problem of making the game really easy for people with overpowered builds. If the weakest builds can do it (albeit slowly), then by definition the strongest builds will steamroll it.
The situation you've presented results in an entirely trivial game - everyone wins eventually, and the only difference between good and bad builds is how quickly you win. It would be similar to running a marathon where you're allowed to take breaks as often as you like, and for as long as you like. Everyone would finish the marathon eventually, and the better runners would just finish faster. What is the point in that?
If something is challenging for the best builds and the best players, chances are very good that it is entirely impossible for the worst builds and players. If that were not the case, then there must necessarily be no differences between the best and the worst - which is an entirely different issue dealing with skill variety and balance.
SotiCoto
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Drazach Thicket
Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]
10 Sep 2007 at 16:30 - 114
Thanks to Burst Cancel for that delightful wall of text. *Yawn*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Very few of them can fit effectively into any already decent build in my opinion. I rarely see a point to using a PvE-Only skill over all the skills I'm used to using...and it annoys me I need to take Light of Deldrimor into Dungeons when I go in with Heroes/Hench to find treasures. The only skill I've found a fun use for at the moment is Pain Inverter, when my MEsmer was farming Ebon Vanguard points, that skill alone can cap a siege devourer.
The failure of the GW:EN PvE skills is that they aren't profession-specific like the Sunspear and Kurzick / Luxon ones. Therefore they aren't really catered for any particular style of play... and are therefore inadequate substitutes for class-specific skills.
I mean... for my assassin, there is nothing he can take advantage of with his high Critical Strikes or rapid hits. Drunken Master would be nice, but the conditions aren't quite as favourable as those of Critical Agility (plus Sunspear title higher than Dwarven title)...
Likewise... spells don't do enough damage for elementalists.... aren't quite annoying enough (with a few Asuran exceptions) for Mesmers... don't heal or purge effectively for Monks..... etc.
They're general-purpose skills..... whereas builds are usually catered to VERY specific roles. I don't want to drag some general-arse skill into my specialist build....
xArcaeus
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Sep 2007
Can't Stand Idiots (CSI)
R/
10 Sep 2007 at 16:37 - 115
Well put, Burst Cancel. I love the fact that GW presents higher challenges than how fast you can button-mash. While certain areas can prove extremely difficult for some, I thoroughly enjoy it when I aggro a group of enemies in a dungeon I've never seen before and witness my characters NOT pwn them immediately. Makes things about 100x more interesting trying to create builds the second time around (after beating it) so that I can do it more efficiently. If I wanted to play Whack-A-Mole, I'd take my W/Mo20 back to The Great Northern Wall and C-Space myself to sleep.
Each area of GWEN is designed to put some specific new challenge on the player, which makes for a more interesting (albeit more difficult) challenge for the players. If you're having trouble, do some thinking and re-skilling, but don't give up so soon!
Snow Bunny
Alcoholic From Yale
Join Date: Jul 2007
Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]
10 Sep 2007 at 16:50 - 116
Guys. This is PVE. When Mallyx was glitched like a dick, sure, that was a weebit challenging, I will admit.
THESE DUNGEONS are easy.
Every complaint post should post the build they are using.
I've run through this game with the exact same setup whole way through.
Me - - -> Hybrid Prot LoD, with Infuse. Mo/E with Glyph.
Master of Whispers - - - -> N/Mo Jagged Bones MM with sup rune. Packs Aegis at 8 seconds, and dark bond.
Olias - - -> SS/AoE nuker with minions for supplemental damage. packs barbs for boss spikes with minions.
Vekk - - -> Sandstorm Warder with Water snares (Deep Freeze with sac glyph) and 8 second aegis
Devona
Cynn
Herta
Prot Henchie (can't remember name)
This party has gotten me through EotN and every dungeon with ease. It's really not that difficult. The only problem I had was with the Shards of Orr, where my monk build was fatalistically unequipped to handle the Vile Miasma/bleeding/disease pressure.
Stop running garbage builds, get some good equipment, and actively control parts of your heroes.
/done
Painbringer
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2006
Minnesota
Black Widows of Death
W/Mo
10 Sep 2007 at 16:52 - 117
If you fall off a bike do you not just get back on?
I thought the Kinslayer dungeon was hard (I have completed it 5 times)
I thought Lost Souls dungeons was ridiculous and a waste of time (I have finally figured out builds to get to the end) have not finished it yet but I will
Balance your party so they work as a team (if solo flag and call targets)
Study up on your builds and try new things out (Example My Necro SS loves her new spell [skill]Deep Freeze[/skill] )
Why you ask because she can snare a whole group while my group of Nukers tear it apart.
Trial and error.
brian78wa
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Spirit Check
W/N
10 Sep 2007 at 16:56 - 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~
I just did Frostmaw's for the first time and that was quite the challenge (3 RP, 5 heros) - tough, but not unbeatable. Yeah, we wiped a few times, but we learned a few things along the way that will make our next run through go much better.
It really does help to know what you're facing going in, that way you can prepare for it and bring the appropriate counters to your enemies' attacks. But if you don't, it doesn't take long to discover what you need and then adjust accordingly
Frostmaw was easy.
I was a monk first time doing it and I had my 2 y/o niece blocking my screen and jumping on me through 80% of it and we still made it easy.
brian78wa
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2006
Spirit Check
W/N
10 Sep 2007 at 16:58 - 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by themickman
nw5221, can i take a wild guess and say that you are an assassin primary?
What does that have to do with anything? played right Assassins are very good in anything.
TabascoSauce
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2007
Virginia, US
TFgt
W/Me
10 Sep 2007 at 16:59 - 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
The situation you've presented results in an entirely trivial game - everyone wins eventually, and the only difference between good and bad builds is how quickly you win. It would be similar to running a marathon where you're allowed to take breaks as often as you like, and for as long as you like. Everyone would finish the marathon eventually, and the better runners would just finish faster. What is the point in that?
I read your post, and I wanted to discuss this a bit.
One specific game is of interest here, from 40 years ago - pinball. Pinball was quite the craze of its time, and had at its core a win/loss state that was entirely dependent on comparison to other players - the high score roster. Anyone could be satisfied that his play netted him half a million points, say, but if the high scorers are about at the 10 million mark then he is not at a public perception of "win" state. There was no end of game, as you could just keep going as long as the ball was in play.
Then came arcade games, which sometimes actually had a definitive beginning and end of game, and not just the "keep going forever" type of pinball. Those games could have multiple win/loss states, where you finished the game itself but did not get everything and have a high score recorded, and conversely you can have a high score but not finish the game. The games always had identical start states, and did not record anything but your score for future reference.
Now we have games like guild wars, where not only is there an end of game and a leaderboard/high score area, but also a new concept of continuance of character development - with pinball there was none, with videogames maybe they had powerups but you lose those at the end of game, and with MMOs today you have an artificial concept of the "level" and "equipment" which will never be taken away from you or reset without your direct action, by deleting a character. These games highlight an interactive movie concept, and deliberately are designed to let players win the game, if by nothing else than letting the character go elsewhere in the game and "beef up" to come back to the trouble area stronger.
There is no current MMO designed like the older games, with definitive static win/loss states that reset your avatar or character. You could make a case that non MMO online games like Counter Strike have those definitive win/loss state, and you would be correct. But we are not talking about CS.
I am afraid that your idea of "everybody wins = boring" is the way MMOs are being made today, and is to be accepted, not feared.
