PvP is slowly dying

sometimes the game is about FUN... i find 1v1 fun... 2v2 is also fun (use scrimmages for this now)... its a matter of options... just because it wouldnt be the most competative thing, it would be nice for a fun change of pace.

Don't know how 1v1/2v2'd be fun. It'd be a frustrating rock paper scissors imo.

Please don't listen to this suggestion Anet. PvErs' suggestions for fixing PvP are always bad. 6 man HA, anyone? Oh, and let's spend time and resources making Hero Battles that no real PvPer gives a shit about or wants, instead of balancing out the skills that effect everyone! Woot.

The majority of posts in this thread I'd take with a few grains of salt.

No PVE players with brains in head would ever mind UAX for PvPers.

It's like .... you would have ot be extra stupid to think that devalues your achievements or something.

PvP might have "died" according to those who lost the desire to keep doing the same thing over and over. but pvp might not have died for others. this type of general statement reflects the person's view, not necessarily the views of others.
same goes for pve. there are always going to be people who hate doing this or that, but there are so many types of things to do in this game that you can always balance by doing random pve stuff if you are a gvg/ha-er and vice versa--do pvp if all you do is pve all day long. if people don't like doing specific things in the game, why do them? dont punish yourself :P

there are some solutions to these problems that some posters here got close to pointing out, but never quite hit them on the head; they merely started introducing topics they feel are "problems" with no ways to get around all of it! so i will list a few suggestions as a guide to strengthen your ha/gvg/pvp experience:

for those who are concerned about:

Topic: not being able to "beat" specific builds or the guilds running these builds:

Solution: examine their builds in observe mode. tear apart what might devastate them the most and go from there. try coming up with builds on your own that could potentially be pure ownage against builds such as "spiritway" or "legoway." once you have found the weak spot, eat them alive. they won't see it coming. give those who play "overpowered builds" a run for their money instead of an easy roll.

this is one great way to "get legowayers to stop legowaying." if what seems a random build to them that beat them, they will be less likely to play it each time they get rolled by "randomway."

which brings me to yet another topic, with yet another solution.

T: "people keep running the same garbage in HA and gvg."

S: do not feed to the fire and run exactly what the rest of the ha/gvg population is running. this is why we see so much of this stuff, because people are, indeed, human--after all--and when monkey sees, monkey does.
nobody should feel the need to run legoway if they want to get in a pug in ha. instead, run test builds. they may fail, but coordination IS key, and party members just need to listen to instructions and do what their characters were built to do.

i, for one, quit ha a few months ago because all anyone (my friends and even pugs) ever wanted to run was ritspike (and eventually legoway when the ritspikers learned legoway rolled rits), and frankly, i was tired of it all--seeing the same 2-3 builds. i was an HAer for fun, not for fame (even though i wanted my tiger), but yet it became fame farming to the rest of my HA friends.
i felt i did not need to play junky builds just to make friends happy (yes, i felt i was hurting myself to help others--doing things i did not agree with). and that is why PvE rocks my world right now. id rather pve than get called to play cookie cutter garbage that the group leader snagged off a build he or she found on observe mode.
so, to make an example of what i stated about feeding to the fire and keep on playing cookie cutter builds, it is probably better to play it once or twice, for giggles, then go on and refine skills elsewhere, where players will get more out of their game. like monking ^^

moral to the story and ultimate solution: if i ever start up in HA again, i would rather start from scratch and build builds with myself being the leader. with this in mind, i would also rather see people start from scratch as they used to, and see what becomes of builds.

i might be one of the very few who feels this way, but sometimes it is nice to see how well other builds can do by messing around with skills.

Are you being serious or sarcastic? I want to believe it's the latter.

Post #46 hit the mark. Nice analysis Yichi.

Maybe instead of wanting everything to be gifted to you on a platter, you could, you know, try to actually work a little bit, for things? OH NO SOUL REAPING NERF! Do you not understand how incredibly broken SR was as a primary attribute when coupled with Spirits, or are you just being ignorant because you feel so utterly incompetant without a way to abuse things?

PS. UAX
PPS. Reconnects

Balance updates every 3~ months is not often enough. When things are ruining the entire foundation of high level PvP, they need to be fixed instantly, or the detrimental effect they will have will be servere. Just look at shortly after Nightfall was released. You had Paragons giving all Party members/NPC's like a bajillion armor, as well as a load of energy. You also had Avatar of Grenth Dervishes running around stopping any form of Prot.

Now you're seeing Melandru's, which has been there since I uninstalled, and still barely anything been done. Same with Aegis, pretty much all Paragon shouts/chants (note: this includes Shield's Up / Watch Yourself, even though they're Warrior skills). Ward Melee - all these passively defensive skills, where the balance cost on them is far too low for their effect, and you can break such things by taking multiple copies, or throwing say, Ward, on an MoR Mesmer requiring even less of a spec than on an Elementalist, but the ability to permanently maintain it, which an Ele doesn't carry, plus the fact it's fast cast so almost impossible to interrupt without guess work.
Then you get things which are nuts in Tombs and Arenas, but aren't touched either. An time any skill gets out of line it nees to be dealt with. The problem is, it isn't. Skills get buffed to see more use, become a problem, and are left.

Build Wars?

Also - 8 million fun seasons / infrequent skill balances / not following through on promises / useless ladder / poor AT system / no real rewards / imbalanced maps / imbalanced mechanics / Blockagons / Ritualists / Shadowstepping / Dervishes / ... the list goes on for a bit longer, but you get the idea...

I am a casual player. I don't invest hours per day or sometimes even hours per week on this game. I have however had the oppurtunity and privledge to play fairly competitively in both HA and GvG. For all purposes I am the type of player this game was originally marketed too and I feel as a casual player that I can offer a unique perspective on what went wrong. It's something that has been bothering me for a long time.


When Prophecies first came out PvP reminded me of Chess. In my opinion it was an 8 man team chess game and I loved it. Not only did it have excellent game play but it also had an amazing training environment. A person could start off playing PvE to familarize himself with the skill's, the skill names, and the skill icons. You then graduated to some training arenas by way of Random arena's, then Team arena's, and finally Tomb of the Priemieval Kings. All gave you an oppurtunity to learn different things and ease in slowly to the higher end PvP. When ready you could move into the Cadillac of PvP, the Guild vs Guild battles.

Chess was reformed to it's modern day rules about 1475, and it has seen very little changes in 500 years while remaining one of the most popular games. It is my opinion that Guild Wars PvP was designed to resemble a team based game of Chess and indeed it was at it's greatest when it resembled Chess the most.

The greatest thing about Chess is how the game is almost perfectly balanced (White has a slight advantage due to always having the first move) while employing several types of pieces, each with it's own movement and strength's.

The first chapter of Guild Wars enjoyed a similar balance while in a team based game. In my opinion the 2 biggest mistakes to the detriment of the game were the loss of this balance and the loss of the requirement to work as a team.

How were these mistakes made and if it's possible to fix them how do we do it?

In my opinion the balance of the game was irreparably damaged due to a flawed business model. The business model was flawed in several key ways. The first being the release of new chapters. To make the new Chapter attractive to a larger base of people the new profession and skills have to be stronger and better than the ones that preceeded. Finacially this makes the most sense, however in terms of maintaining a top tier game it wreak's all kinds of havoc. Not only did we lose balance between professions and skills we also lost balance in the training functions of the different aspects of the game. Namely PvE,Random Arena's, etc. I ascribe this imbalance to the designers no longer willing to follow their vision and focus for the game, but rather trying very hard to please everyone who took the time to complain. In my opinion the constant appeasement of random complainers has created a game that is bulky, confusing, and complicated. A far cry from the original clean streamlined game. Some of the first changes I can remeber were the introduction of traders for runes and celestial sigils. Neither of them were good changes.

Where once we enjoyed a seamless continuity from what I consider the training area's to the real focus of the game namely GvG, we now have a huge spiralling mess where players get bogged down with useless endeavors that are no longer about fun but more about accomplishments. These useless ideas would include such things as stockpiling gold/wealth, unlocking myriads of skills some of which have the same description but different icons and names, updating hero's and hero armors, and title after title. Do we really need a Lucky and Unlucky title?

Another one of the big mistakes was the introduction of heroes and I mean it was a mistake for all areas of the game. Once you saw groups of real people learning to work as a team in PvE as training including full guild groups. Now it's a rare occurence as people play the whole game through with Hero's and henchmen. The introduction of Hero's has effectively ended the need for teams in all parts of the games.

Where once we had strong teams who worked together, where once we had guilds who played together now we have single or double players getting by with NPC AI. In my opinion all the "upgrades" we've received have only served to take the focus from where it belongs and fragment the energy and directions on whole.

Fixing PvP requires fixing everything. People who say seperate PvP from PvE fail to realize that isolating the two only serves to sever the link whereby people cross over from PvE (which is the majority of players) to PvP. The way to fix it is to simplify, remove all the extra add on's we've received, remove the hero's from everywhere to encourage team play again, remove all the doubled up skills, and find a way to shorten the complicated, expanisve mess that is PvE. Return to the natural progression from PvE to PvP with the focus being on competitive team play again.

With that being said I dont believe the game and primarily PvP can be fixed with the game as it stands now. Arena Net already admitted to making a mistake with the bloated PvE sections which take time away from the guilds that were doing PvP and PvE. Thus the creation of GW2 as they realize the balance that once existed between PvE and PvP cannot be restored. Even if we stopped with new skills etc. it would take a long time of tweaking skills to bring the balance back to the skills and proffessions. I am anxiously awaiting GW2 to see if they can once again create a simple streamlined game where the focus is on strategy and teamwork rather than expanisive, extensive distractions.


Anyway thats it and I know I wrote a lot so forgive me but I decided to let it out.

Your frenzy warrior pwns PVErs long time. FEAR THE FRENZY! Then again, I can see why people like you would prefer warriors. Anyway, good luck with waiting for your team to res you and empathy owns you.

*runs by really, really fast*

PVP needs more romance!

I think PvP is dying because the lack of creativity is far gone. One thing I remember from watching high ranked teams battle it out was the creativity and ingenuity that went into the builds. People are playing the same builds and not thinking of the counter them. However, the team builders are not solely responsible for the lack of creativity.

Skill balance does play a big role. Some skills can make builds that are too good not to add on your team. Look at the LoD/Infuser monk. This build is so vital to a team, every team pracitically needs one. It helps against degen and small AoE with its constant party heal and when the spike comes, its there to save the day. I can't come up with a good replacememnt for this build. Another build is "Blockagon". The blockagon gives you defense that can't be stripped, used against you, manipulated etc. It provides the best non-healing defense in the game to the entire party!!! Side it with a complimentary B-Surge/Warder, well now you can shutdown most melee dps coming at your team. This is just a few of the most common builds seen in pvp. Some of these skills really need to be looked at, or perhaps some of their counters need to be examined. Either way, it seems Anet has made a few skills that work so well they just scream "I'm the only build you will ever need".

IMO, titles are bad for PvP. It kills the creative process as well. Instead of people trying to calculate and create a way to make an effective team, PvP has become "Use this build to farm points for my title because it works". Then others start to complain that every uses Build X, and instead of looking for weaknesses in Build X, they just decide to play Build X too. So its a vicious cycle and it exists because the grind for titles exist. And trust me, its not going to get better. HoM is going to keep it around for a while.

In regards to VoD for GvG, I agree that VoD comes way too fast now. It should come later than 18 mins. But there also needs to be more of a dynamic to GvG as well. I watch obs mode now and then, and I admit that I walk away and do something else until it gets close to VoD. Thats when some of the matches get exciting because a team actually has to give up the center of the map and try something new. There needs to be more viable strategy in GvG as well.

A suggestion. Perhaps for ATS(Maybe the monthly tournaments), what if special GvG maps were made that only circulate in ATS? I know that certain builds are used for certain Guild hall maps because some of these maps are exploitable. An unknown map could test the skills of the two teams and could make for an exciting match.

Anyway, thats my two cents. And while many believe PvP may be long gone, I wouldn't mind if it could just get the defibilator used on it a few times before its canned

Do they really want to make GW2 so different from GW1? I think they should be honest to themselves and their players and make GW2 a PvE game or a PvP game.

We have a game with two totally different game modes, PvP and PvE, that share the same set of skills. That is the core of the problem. One side always gets neglected for the other.

They neglected new PvP content... totally. GW:EN has nothing new for PvP. They added nothing more than what would I consider the basics, skills balances. Alliance Battles and Hero Battles were the new PvP modes that were somehow a lure to draw people into PvP - which is basically GvG and HoH, which got nothing but changes to VoD and now the unloved automated tournaments.



ANet should consider making GW2 a PvE or a PvP game. So far both game modes suffer because of the other one, and none gets enough to shine. Right now they are massively leaning towards PvE. OK, I am a PvE player, but I think I can dare to say it amazes me how ANet did not do a hell of a lot for the PvP of a game that was marketed as a competitive PvP game.

Appart from all the inbalances bla bla bla, the main reason why pvp is dead are we, the players.

People here already mentioned the lack of creativity amongst players. That's one thing, there's a also a lack amongst players for the need of challange.

IMO, cookiecutterbuilds can't be avoided, they exist virtually everywhere. But it's our choice wheater we play them or not.
For example, when I started to play HA I started out as a war in iway (at the time when it was 6 wars and 2 necs). After getting to know the maps a little and other builds which were around I thought, let's try something else. After trying lots of stuff I eventually ended up playing as a monk in balanced. For me personally it was the most challanging thing to play, and that was what I was looking for.

There's nothing wrong with playing a fotm-build to get to know the basics of pvp. Heck, even if you're a hardcore balanced player there's nothing wrong with it if you wanna have a quick game without worrying about gametactics too much. My guild ran balanced most of the time or we were trying out new stuff. But every once in a while we played some iway just to have some facesmashing fun. But sticking to the same (easy) build over and over again without ever wanting to try something new and increase the difficulty of what you're playing, personally that goes beyond my comprehension.

Why we ask Anet all the time to nerf something, when we players have the power to balance pvp ourselves? If we want to bring pvp back to life, we players have to decide to leave those fotm-builds for what they are and get everything out of pvp what it has to offer.

On the other hand, I'm not from another planet. Of course I know that where there's an exploit, players will take advantage out of it. But again, do we wanna exploit a build simply cause it's easy fame, or do we wanna have a challanging game-envoirment?

Frenzy is the best IAS in the game.
Here's the difference between us - you think Empathy owns a Warrior. I think that Empathy only slightly annoys a Warrior.

"Hey, Empathy on 1 please remove."
"Okay"
Warrior continues to attack.

OR!

"Hey, Empathy on 1, gimme SoA or SHands."
"Okay"
Warrior continues to attack

OR!

"K, Empathy on 1 and you're terrible at removal so I'm not gonna attack until it's removed/off."
"Okay"
Nukers continue to dominate insanely retarded mob AI while Warrior just stands there.

You've just described a significant proportion of the PVE playerbase.

Too late IMO to get the old guilds back so PvP would need major changes, which will not happen till at least GW2. Even then with Fury seemingly giving people all they wanted from GW and more, there is not much incentive to return.

Two ideas have been repeated over and over again and ignored. The first is sealed deck play. No buildway here, and it will really test players to use skills they normally never use or would never use in the way they need to.

The second idea is a template mode with a very limited skill selection and restriction on number of characters you can have in a party. If set up right and balanced often, this would create a style of GvG that would be pure balance. Any overpowered skills can just be removed from the pool. To prevent stagnation, the skills in the pool can be changed up every so often.


But with everyone considered about GW2 now, and the skill balances occuring about every 6 months, hard to really have hopes up. PvP got nothing with Gwen, so for a year at least if the GW split team stuff was true, no one did anything for PvP really except random experiments and 2 sets of skill tweaks basically.

The only way to get good Guilds coming back is more tournaments like GWWC.

Sealed Deck play from ArenaNet doesn't give both teams the same selection of skills, so it is often down to Build also.

Sealed Decks in ATs (With knowledge beforehand of which campaigns are required)
GWWC
Selling customised consumables in the Online Store (Fundage)
Retweak cookie cutter builds such as an LoD monk and Shock Warriors (Change shock's KD to Interrupt, remove exhaustion) so we don't look at a class combo and know almost exactly what to expect.
Do something about the champion title's minimum rating.
Remove ability to view skills being used in observer mode.

And that is what I came up with while making breakfast, now to continue waking up.

Replace all forms of current PvP with gimmick event and "minigame" PvP.... stuff like Wintersday Snowball fights... Dwarven Punchout tournament... Rollerbeetle Racing and Polymock...


That'll keep them amused for a while and stop them messing with our skills too.

Just wanted to say I couldnt agree with you more, and I have been saying this is a problem in similiar posts for over a year. Anet needs to think about how the things they implement into the game will effect the game. The PvP title and emote reward is really very nice but unfortunately the attitudes of the PvP community and they way they have used it has ruined the game. The chest was reward enough really. Rewards that promote this kind of superiority feeling and attitude among long time players or to show off which is not what I think A net intended but what the community has turned it into should be steered away from in GW2. Supercool chest drops, the announcement that your team has won the in the Hall of Heros and that the gods have bestowed favor on them (maybe not with UW or FoW depending on it, but maybe everyone in the region could have some benefit like an aura while they have favor, enable benefits from pve shrines, maybe improved chestdrops everywhere for that region while they have favor) would be good.

What has killed PvP is the attitudes of the people that play there, Forming R6 whatever, meet under bridge with title on, blah blah blah..... Basically if your new to it you cant get in which is ridiculous because its not like you need to have 1000 hours under belt playing PvP to understand any GW team strategy or concept, 321 spike or whatver, lol. Its not that hard, but thats what has been going on there since A net added the perks to the titles (which are nice imo and there is nothing wrong with that. Its the general attitude of the pvp community that has turned it into the ugly thing that it is and resulted in this "Backfire" [mesmers pwn] lol. So as more and more people that been playing for tha gotten tired of guildwars and move on which is going to happen, its very difficult and frustrating for new people to get into PvP (and most realistic people that go their and try to are going to just say forget this, i dont have this much time on my hands to waste playing with the * that play here and go right back to PvE where PvE is played because it is fun to play.) I have tried to do HA and Get into GvG guilds several times and because I dont have the rank it takes to get into these guilds or groups I am turned away and I can play any class/build or team role in the game just as good as a rank 6. The problem there is that because of all the emphasis placed on the title system, tournaments, etc. most of the people there just take it too seriously and it takes all the fun out of the game. You have people that want to win every time and get upset if the team loses, they start blaming stuff on others and the whole situation just becomes too tense. You have the new people their playing against the ranked people due to the fact that you cant get into a ranked group unless you are ranked so everyone wants to get rank as fast as they can (also naturally they are going to get beat just because they are new to it) and if they dont win they go hopping looking for a new group thinking they will do better. Ultimately if you are new there you end up spending more time looking for a group than you actually do playing the game. For several reasons most of which I think stem from the attitudes of the PvP community in general PvP has died.



Adding real money or prize tournaments only makes people take more seriously and I think that is a bad idea. Most people play games as a hobby because it is fun to do in free time. They dont play games for to win prize money unless they are hardcore gamers which is not the case for the vast majority of people playing this game.

who cares if its balanced or not......there's nothing balanced about random arenas yet people play it.
i think 1vs1 is what people would get into first....just look at how norn fights and polymock are succesful in pve.
why not makin matches vs human beings instead of AI?
its about fun.....and i'd love to see how weel my solo builds work vs other human beings.

No.

And seriously, in PvE it does't really matter what skills you have on your bar, you'll succeed. Balance should be done almost exclusively with PvP in mind, because that;s the only arena in which skill balance will ever matter. I don't see why you don't understand this.

I suggest you try to clear the Domain of Anguish using a random set of skills.

PvE requires good builds designed for the place they're being used in, unlike PvP where the majority of the players just use wiki builds.

Because it is wrong?

Duh.

Skill selection matters more in PvE than it does in PvP if for no better reason than that you know what you're going up against in PvE and can prepare for it. PvP is just a selection of people / teams thrown together rather randomly... You can't plan that stuff. It is down to luck as much as anything... unless one side or other just outright sucks.
And all your "skill balances" end up doing is kicking off the top-dog and replacing it with some other skill set. No matter what the PvP skills, someone will find some way to use them that p!sses everyone else off. It is an exercise in futility.


And why did I even make this post?
Because elitist PvPtards make me sick... not least because they have nothing to be elitist about.

I lost respect for GW PvP a long time agon when factions released... from there, I think it got worse and worse. New skills and new professions kinda imbalanced the game. But worse, I think is the introduction of heroes. One really sad memory in PvP was a match between WM and some unknown crappy unknown team which was playing discord pre-nerf gimmick H+H style. WM lost that match real bad. This exactly demostrates how so unbalanced the game became. Was no longer a matter of skill. And Heroes are an eyesore to PvP IMO.

In the end, I think Anet tried too hard to please everyone.

Truth, my guild faced a team with 2 thumpers, Olias, Olias Number 2, Livia, Livia Number 2 and a monk (I think one of their other thumpers dropped).

Get Heroes out of PvP except for Hero Battles.

Who uses wiki builds in high end GvG, really?

I honestly don't get why you're complaining about nerfs coming to skills that were incredibly, ridiculously overpowered to an extent where they spoiled gameplay. I'm pretty sure ArenaNet are forking out money based on the PvP aspect of the game, and as such it is the only real area in which balance is regarded as a high priority.

I'm not being elitist in posting this - if anything I would argue that you think you have a divine right to having things the way you want it, regardless of the effect it has on another area of the game. With any PvP balances, what is the negative effect on PvE? That you need to find another way to spam 25 energy skills?

That, hands down, has to be one of the stupidist things I've read in a while. That is exactly what makes skill selection matter so much in PvP. It's a massive trade off where you can't just run anything, and need to be balanced in your skill choice. The fact you aren't tied to such a trade off in PvE, coupled with the fact the AI you are up against will not alter their behaviour at all, means that you can quite easily complete it without any hassle.

Clearly this is a waste of a time though, as you quite obviously will never understand how game balance and mechanics function. You won't ever realise why reacting in a dynamic and diverse way is far more entertaining than running a single thing for ever and ever to farm that pretty skin that has no reflection upon player skill or accomplishment in this game.

Let's leave low tier arenas for PvP out of this. No Jade Quarry, Aspenwood, Alliance Battles, or RA. I'm talking exclusively about the competitive areas of the game. No successful team will look on wikipedia for their Builds. To think so is naive to such an extreme that you really shouldn't post about something for which you're so ignorant.

Clearing DoA with a random skillset, is actually easier than you'd think, purely because of the reaction the mobs will have. That reaction is not going to change in any area of PvE. They are coded to do the same thing when the situation arises. They will not alter their behaviour. It's a simple concept, yet you seem to have trouble grasping it.

PvE is not complex to play because of that sheer fact, and as such any balance to skills will not have a big impact on it, unless it's giving mobs a skillset that can't ever be interrupted and deal ten thousand damage to every player.

The simple fact is, PvE players, quite often, want it incredibly easy. I mean, just last week there was a post where someone cried about the Sunspear Monk skill getting toned down - why? Do you not realise this was incredibly overpowered (still is)? You want it to be easy mode to farm your green/gold skin, requiring little to no effort to be successful.

Dear Guild Wars Guru, can this be my sig?

Sincerely,

~Bryant

The fact that I can earn masters with Battle Rage, Mending and Galrath Slash on my bar says a lot. Vanquisher has a point.

Isn't that what makes it actually challenging? Not knowing what your up against and having to best adapt to these unknown challenges?

Ignorant PvE players make me sicker.

Anyways, here's my like seriouzly seriuoz suggestion to revitalize PvP: Remove all professions and create only one new profession, the Marine. Turn all matches into Deathmatches/Team Deatmatches and litter the area with Super Shotguns. Then rename the game Doom. YEAH!!!111

(If you didn't get that, then I'm saying that PvP is screwed.)

The sole reason PvP in GW died is because of "Elitism".

The player pool shrank every time new chapters were added. With unbalanced skills and game mechanics, a sect of players got opportunities to rank higher up than the rest simply because of "connections" and "time at hand". Most of the people tried whatever they could to get a glowing tiger and left HA as soon as they got it. If they allowed PvE players to get glowing emotes, HA would have been empty LONG time back. Fact is -- if any aspect of the game caters to a special sect of people who are a general minority in the game, that aspect will shrink over time. When I say minority, I mean elitists. The reason Starcraft was so successful at this and lived for so long was because there was no apparent elitism.

At this point, I believe ANET is done with PvP in GW and won't even spend a dime to do anything about it. Their focus will be on GW2. And rightly so. I, however, do hope they take their folder of "lessons learned" notes from GW and use that while developing GW2.

- Vel

Why PvP is dying?
I may have some answers.
- Titles.
Titles kill everything where they are put. Titles means the end of skill>time played and the birth of Grind. For HA, when titles and emotes were introduced, people stopped worrying about winning halls and started farming scrubs. HA went into a farming spot for PvP titles, i.e. people with no will to improve their skills but only to farm, so they copy pasted the "best " builds/ exploits, as long as it provided an efficient way to accumulate many wins in a short amount of time, without any will nor skill to hold halls. When these titles were introduced to other forms of PvP, even the lowest like RA, it brought the same kind of farming/exploiting behavior, like leavers, synching, Olias GvG ladder farming, etc...
-Community
PvP community is harsh. Unfriendly. And with giant e-peens. PVE community is single minded. Unable to admit that they may need some experience before climbing the ladder. Therefore the wall between PvE and PvP. Therefore the lack of fresh blood in the PvP community, who quitted the one after another without being correctly replaced. But who's faulty? A-Net? No, only people playing.
-Automated Tournaments.
They suck. End of story.
-A-net focuses.
Why did they bring so much to hero battles ? Why did they do nothing to TA, the starting battleground of any serious teamplay? Do they care what people are saying? Such kind of PvP community denegation frustrates. And they are less believed when they say they care and listen their customers.
-Observer Mode
That led people to copy paste builds instead being creative. It introduced an incredible form of laziness among players. Before, the PvP community designed their builds and modified them as they were fighting better and better guilds. Now, you look the best guilds, take their builds and fight with it.
-Skill balances.
No, I won't say the game is imbalanced. Balance is quite a matter of perception. Actually I find the game pretty balanced. People will call this Build Wars. But Build Wars isn't exactly the definition of a balanced game? That means that you can't come with a build that will roll over everything. Only skill will make you do so.You can be countered by the right build. Isn't it the definition of balance, when there is no overpowered build/meta spread over all the guilds? Do you really miss the Gale warriors meta? They were overpowered. So overpowered there was not place for anything else than a warrior for offense. Aegis was nerfed not long ago. But until the end of Factions, it was really powerful, but not used that much. Why ? because there was no way for a monk to cope with its cost. They nerfed Aegis when they shouldn't have boosted Glyph of lesser energy in the first place.
If there is a powerful meta rolling over any builds you could come with (say an overpowered build and its counter), people will say it's overpowered (Iway). If you have many builds with none of them able to roll over all the other's one people will say Build Wars balance plz. I seriously understand A-net desperation about this. I quite agree A-net balances are too brutal. But whatever they do about this there will be whining. Do you want an overpowered meta, so everything's left is either use the build or loose (so what's left is a matter of skill about using this overpowered build (see Hero battles and Ekhelion's posts)), or a Build Wars meta, where a build can win many other's, but will be defeated for sure by some others? You can't have the two. I prefer the second solution.

Another Truth, elitism drives people running away screaming from trying to get into PvP. Been saying it for a long time now.

can anyone tell me whats so great about polymock? o.o
i mean, its a nice add, but its too short.
i played all the polymock quests, but it ends there...or is there a place to play it against other people or smth?

There will be more to it in coming months, I am sure. However, if GW PvP future is Polymock, I will be very very very very very very.................very sad.

- Vel

this questions makes me very sad, really
this even more

people thought its impossible to break pve and skills were balanced for the sake of pvp, however every overnerfed skill created new problems and reduced diversity due lack of alternatives, even mesmer had trouble finding groups until people got pissed, anyways pvp died because I cursed it

People only realized that PvP is dead? PvP died by simply because Anet didn't put enough focus on the PvP community. If you are going to add more skills to to a game, then be prepared for more work. Its obvious that Anet didn't care much or didn't get enough information simply because of the lack of attention towards the PvP community. I do wonder why oh why did it take so long to nerf greneth dervs or hexway. I thought that anet might have learned by now when Factions was released when the meta changed so dramatically. It nearly always turned into VoD because of the rits. But I was wrong that anet learned from its mistake and found it quite amazing that the impact nightfall had, not to mention how much of a screw up anet was when it was released. D\Mo's anyone?

Nice, and examples are? If you're going to bring up Spiritual Pain, I can do nothing but laugh because Mesmer spike was one of the most overpowered spikes to ever grace this game.

I prefer actually playing a match and having a chance to win, which build wars isn't. Gale Warriors were extremely overpowered, but due to this everyone ran them and it was a fun meta to play in. When everyone runs the same build skill and experience is the victor. Teams that make mistakes will lose, teams that don't will win. Simple. There are exceptions. Playing a defense ball until VoD and then exploding NPC's is not fun, but seems to be the direction the game has gone now. This is where the game needs balancing. Sure, it needed Gale to be toned down also, and it was, but that doesn't mean it should let other things that are ridiculous to go ahead and win all matches because NPC AI sucks and the point of the game is keeping your Guild Lord alive.

When the game once again becomes about winning a match, rather than having victory flash on your screen, it could be fun. However now the playerbase has deteriorated so much that its not actually that fun.

The best 3 metas I've ever played in were Gale Warriors and Dom Mesmers, then Blackout-Push, and then KGYU-esque degen Builds. The game was a lot more about player skill than counting from 3 to 1 and focusing damage exclusively.

Just an idea: remove pvxwiki and observer mode.

*Casts [skill=text]Frigid Armor[/skill]

You can succeed in PvE with 0 skills on your bar if you got your hero's and hench set up, but would that be any fun? Hell no it isn't. We have just as much "right" to the skill as PvP players do, I don't see why you don't understand this. Also lots of people in this thread talking about how much better it was before Factions, well let me tell you a little secret....that is because there were far less skills to use. I still cannot figure out why they will not go to a closed deck of skills for PvP. I mean, they did things backwards with the PvE only skills, they should have done PvP only skills and made them the only ones you could use in PvP. That way it would be "balanced" and seperate from PvE. I just started PvP (teams unless we can get 8 guildies who want to GvG then we do that) And the attitude of PvP players has improved since I last tried to get into it but the "GLF Rank X" groups are the ones killing PvP and most of the poeple on here crying that PvP is dying are the people who are killing it.

Perfectly fine, sadly PvXWiki is not owned by Anet and thus it's up to the runners of that to do so.