PvP is slowly dying

I do, actually. I just don't think that nerfing and buffing skills so they're suitable in PvE regardless of the implications they have on PvP is the way to stimulate a competitive environment. Skills that are nerfed are nerfed for the simple reason that they are too powerful. The fact people don't want powerful skills nerfed because it makes it slightly more difficult to beat the AI of mobs in this game is not a fair viewpoint in regards to game balance.

Vanq you are arguing with the same people that threatened to quit the game (and a lot did) after the AoE AI update so they couldn't meteor shower every mob on the game to death. If it was up to PvE every skill on the game would be buffed to infinity.

Is Grenth derv imba in PvE? No its not. Did it need to be nerfed in PvP? At that time yes it did.

PvP and PvE mechanics work different. A 100+ dmg skill in PvE is just a chink in the armor. In PvP its down right deadly if left unchecked.

PvP has been dead since the release of NF. The game has become so defensive that its boring as hell to play. The reason I never liked HA was because every build had more def than offense. Just about every build relied on spikes to kill a target. GvG has now turned into the same steaming turd that HA used to be with alter maps.

Soul reaping was changed primarily due to the PvPer N/Mo and infinite energy to heal with.
Its the PvPers that whined about that not the PvErs. Oh no he has so much energy to heal with boo hoo. Heres a thought. Kill the healers.
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I personally dont suffer from the changes because I can adapt to them But there are alot of PvErs that cant which was my point. I was making a counter point to the one saying that PvErs are the ones that cause these skill nerfs when its actually the PvPers that whine about all the builds.
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I dont want anything handed to me. I work for everything so dont post like you know anything about me. I was making a counter point to someone saying that PvErs get protected with skill balances when in all actuality its the PvErs that get the brunt of the nerfs. IM not the one that was abusing SR PVPERS were.
Most of the nerfs were based on PVERS abusing them. And PVERS whining that the teams were too powerful. Any build can be countered just find it and stop crying about it.


Mod Edit: Dude, seriously. There is an edit button, use it. Triple posts = bad

Of course PvErs didn't whine about it when it was THEM who used it. I'm sure monsters in PvE would complain about such overpowerdness thrown against them, but well you see, they are AI so they could not.

Soul Reaping was 10x more overpowered in PvE than in PvP, but PvErs love overpowered stuff since it's not used against them. That's why I'm all for giving weak PvErs overpowered skills which kill all enemies in sight. Im perfectly aware some people cant learn how to play the game with balanced skills and attributes, and need blatantly overpowered stuff like old Soul Reaping.

I'm amazed at the number of people who continue to think counterable = balanced. Hf with your build wars.

Also, if you don't even PvP, who do you think you are to be commenting on the ease of countering things? Armchair theorists ftl.

And killing the healer you say? Damn, I've been playing for two years and I hadn't thought of that. You should give PvP lessons because you sure learned me good.

On a more serious note, if you want a proper answer as to why "just counter it" is a horrifyingly bad argument, I'd be happy to explain.

Who says I dont PvP??
I stopped PvPing long ago when it stopped being fun.
When all I would hear is whine after whine from the other PvPers.
I used to PvP all the time so again people need to stop making posts like the know the person. You know nothing about me you dont know what I play.

I also never said that = balance. My whole point was just a counter point to someone saying that PvErs are protected in the skill balances when thats just not true.

When they have 6 or 7 healers, with unlimitted energy, and a really strong spike, that becomes a big harder than you'd think. Maybe you should actually understand the benefits of the build before commenting?

Do you have any idea how many build combinations that aren't terrible are in this game? Do you really, honestly believe that people don't think about counters? Are you so naive as to think that people haven't tried such things?

This is super retarded. How do you kill a healer with infinite energy to spend on healing spells?

How to make skills balanced in PvE and PvP at the same time.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10170019

.-.

AGAIN for the 1000th time. My point was only a counter point to the one saying that PvErs are protected with the skill nerfs. When they are NOT.

back to reviving PvP

i still think 1vs1 is what can save gw pvp.
people in pve are really enjoyin the norm arenas and polymock......anet should learn from this. its the kind of pvp ppl can immediately get into and enjoy.
team pvp games are not so fun for everyone.....i for one hate them.....and they require to have a consistent group of ppl to practice with......which 90% gw population dont have. moreover planning with others what to do is not my idea of fun. i'd rather make my own thing.


ideas for 1vs1

-random 1vs1 (so u got to take an all round build that works vs all different professions)
-profession 1vs1 ( mesmers vs mesmers, rangers vs rangers, etc)
-duel 1vs1 (u against someone of your choice)

Ive been in many HA teams that have plowed through these type of teams. theres something called shutdown. You know interupts, diversion,Blackout ect.

Oh, right, I've never thought of that.

HAY GUISE BLACKOUT THEIR NO. 1 HEALER DIVERT THEIR NO. 4 HEALER.

WHAT ABOUT NO. 2 3 5 6 7 8?

The problem stemmed from very very beginning...since beta I would say. In early days, the game was little known to most. But, early starters took advantage of existing loopholes and ranked up thus, introducing elitism. However, ANET had several several chances to fix it.

ANET could have made rank character based, giving you more idea to what a person play the most. r11 iWay warrior with a changed toon name is not a very good monk who got r11 playing monk. Correct?

The main thing that killed PvP is "so-called" PvP players community; their attitude played the biggest role supported by ANET's stupidity in promoting the idea PvP>>PvE. ANET should have embraced the fact from the get-go that both are two different styles of gameplay and cater to these two communities differently but, fairly. They tried to cater to the both the same way and resulted in a failure.

- Vel

No, since I know for a fact many top GvG'ers are easily able to adapt to any position. Such as Fenix. Fenix is my hero. I wish I could be like him.

Owait, you mean abusing AI is harder than playing against actual people who think? I never thought of that.

Lol like I said Ive been in many groups that have no problem with these builds.
Seriously if you cant think of a way to beat them then thats your problem not mine. But that isnt even my damn point.

Im not even going to repeat my point because ive said it 100 times already.

THIS THEARD IS NOT ABOUT PVE IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM.
skills can only be balanced in a pvp environment cos thats where skills are compared vs each other.
it's maths. if u want imbalanced skills in pve (i don't ) go cry somewhere else.

Went COMPLETELY over your head didn't I? Dont you get it?

Reviving PvP involves balancing the skills to make sure the competition is interesting.

But balancing PvP skills without pissing off PvErs is impossible. Hence the idea of adding PvE modifiers to skills so they maintain their ability to be balanced for PvP while still being usable for PvErs.

If Anet can balance PVP skills without worrying about backlash from PvErs, they have more freedom, and an easier time making decisions. Faster rebalances, less stale meta. While at the same time, PvErs are unaffected.

BOTH SIDES WIN.

Now why dont you sit down and think about that? When you're done thinking, i expect an apology.

1v1 is a horrible idea. It will not save PvP in any way, shape or form, it will just appeal to the RA/AB scrubs that are one of PvP's cancers anyway. The warriors who go straight for other warriors, sins asking for 1v1s etc. Guild Wars is a team game, and real PvP (not RA, HB, AB, Aspenwood) involves teamwork.

@Lyra: While interesting, the chances of Anet implementing any such thing are abysmal at best, and even if they did, it's too little, too late.

I think A Net only failure was trying too hard to please the pvp community and dont think that skill balance needs to be anywhere near what the pvp community makes it into. There are only a few skills that really needed to be balanced and I dont think alot of skills needed to be nerfed to the degree that they have been, and I agree with the guy that said everything can be countered. The main problem with the pvp comminty is the elitism which needs to be toned down, and I agree with everyone that said the titles are a problem. It was really a good idea on anets part and I dont think anet intended for them to be what the community turned it into.

Observer Mode is unfortunately another problem. I really like alot of what observer mode and the idea behind it, unfortunately what the community has turned it into is not what it was intended to be used for. It is now as someone else said just a build copying tool, and it contributes to everyone running the same kind of builds and the ultimate skill balance issue that always follows.

I do think the PvP community of GW is beyond being able to be fixed. I like someone else just hope that they have learned from it and make GW2 a better game.

Suggestions that I would Offer:

Elitism: dont add perks to the game that contribute to it. Its nice to have rewards for accomplishments but maybe the rewards could be something that doesnt contribute to elitism. Get away from titles.

Observer Mode: Its nice to have something to help people get into PvP, but unfortunately that is not how it has been used by the community. Both established PvP guilds use this as well as newly forming PvP guilds as a simple build copying tool. Newer PvP that I joined try to just copy high end builds and run it without even understanding the strategy behind it, lol. (Farenheight and Byron [x guildies] know this all too well) I like what guru has that just simply looks at some builds and discusses the general strategy behind them and the metagame every so often. Or maybe thats found on GW.com, been a while since Ive read any of that stuff, mostly given up with PvP because of what it has become, sadly. I just hope GW 2 doesnt have all the problems that GW has developed. Looking forward to it.

pvp only means players vs player.
its not written anywhere that it should be team play.
there is team players vs player.... and there is individual player vs player.
there is hero battles which is individual PvP but i personally dont like it. that dont mean that individual PvsP has no reason to exist. there are many formats (some of the ones whici i mentioned) which could be fun.

Back on subject rather than this whole PvE vs PvP skill balance crap, Anet's decision to push PvP to the back burner was the catalyst that killed PvP in this game. So here's a couple things to make it somewhat worthwhile for the players that are still interested in PvP:

Team arena ladder or a 4v4/6v6 AT

I really don't understand why Anet would rather have a team consisting of 1 PC and 3 npc PvP oriented be put into the spotlight rather than a team of players. Team arenas is where a lot of PvP players get started because it at least requires some form of coordination and communication between the team.

UAX on PvP players as said before

Has no effect on PvE side of the game so why handicap new pvp chars without giving them all the skills to be competitive?

Fix the whole leavers and leeching problem in RA/AB

This is where a lot of casual players start trying the PvP side of the game and it often leaves a bad taste in their mouths when they experience the rampant problems of people leaving in mid game or sitting there in AB while other people do the work.

Reinstitute the idea of a world championship and put more effort into covering it

This was a great feature as Yichi has said, it put the PvP side of the game into the spotlight and showed how people can play this game in a competitive manner.

Skill balance

Enough has been said about this so I won't bother

PvP Rewards

Anet somewhat had a good idea on the whole faction unlocking thing but it doesn't reward the player enough for a person who does pvp exclusively. Faction doesn't buy new guild halls or pay for guest invites. The tournament rewards are really lackluster also, I mean cmon now?

Leaves a lot to be desired for winning a tournament with your guild while I can just go out and buy the same prize with my paycheck. Not everyone wants a new camera or Ipod as many before me have said, just bring back the cash rewards like in GWWC GWFC tournaments.

Bring VoD back to 30 mins

Pick it apart, agree/disagree I really don't care since there's a lot of fanboyism in this thread that Anet can do no wrong. As have been said, too little too late.

-Mai

VoD at 30 minutes is a complete borefest.

Seriously, with 18 minutes much of the game has been decided already (in fact, much of a game has usually been decided within 10-15 minutes, and if it hasn't more time won't break the deadlock).

There are so many problems inherently wrong with 1v1 combat in GW that I don't know where to start. I'll just say that it won't work, and it will never be implemented into a PvP mode.

Skill balance is essential to PvP. If you don't think so, then I'd imagine you don't do much PvP, in which case please stop with the PvP speculation. This is not meant to be arrogant, it would be like me going into a DoA thread and offering everybody advice on how to beat it. I've been to DoA once or twice when it was first released, and never been back since. I'm sure if I offered suggestions on how to improve DoA, given that I have no experience, it would sound quite misinformed. Kind of like the quote above.

Obs Mode does not result in skill balances. Overpowered skills result in skill balances. A Searing Flames that does 100+ AoE damage is overpowered, and it will catch on, Obs Mode or not.

What if titles were suddenly removed? It wouldn't change much. Experienced players will continue to play with their guildies or their friends list, and on the rare occasions when they have to PUG, they'll probably look for recognizable names and guild tags. If they happen to pick up someone who is complete trash, he'll be kicked. They just won't know that he sucks before they hit Enter Battle.

I think thats kinda the point that was being made.
Unless youre r6 or with friends you dont get a group. A r0 can be better than a r6. r6 doesnt always mean that youre better(not saying it that some arent better but not always) First time I did HA was with my guild all of r0 we were facing a ranked guild around rank 100 iirc and we beat them with ease.They all came in ranking us with there silly emotes. and they got beat. So the point is quit with all the elitism and maybe PvP may be revived.

pls tell me.
cos i don't see why 1vs1 can't be fun.
i'm not sayin it'll ever be a proper competitive format....or even remotely balanced.....but it can be fun!
also it introduces ppl to builds and how to use skills properly.....and consequently how to fight.

also its proven than in competetive games (progaming) individual player vs player is more popular than team pvp.
starcraft , wc3 ,unreal tournament do have team play (up to 4vs4).....but its the individual gaming thats popular. after all in individual pvp u get all the credit....its u who won....not your team. it appeals more to the competive gamer.

it may appear sad to some of you....but some ppl cannot be bothered to arrange or discuss things with others ....especially 7 other ppl! its more about patience more than anythin....

guildwars will never have a place in competitive gaming/progamin if it doesnt introduce some sort of succesful individual pvp.

Wait, you mean CS and other shooters have 1v1 tournaments?

Crazy.

The only kind of "individual" pvp there is here is HB, and that isn't very popular at all.

Guildwars is a TEAM game.

The point being made was that removing titles will somehow magically revive PvP, and I don't think that's the case. Like I said before, if titles were gone, we'd would continue to play with friends, names and guilds we trust. The difference is that we'd have no way of determining if a pug was good or not before we play with them. If that were the case, I don't think most people would risk pugging at all, certainly no decent group. In other words, removing titles will not magically make an experienced group take an inexperienced player.

Choosing to play with people you trust rather than people who may potentially be idiots - that's common sense, not elitism.

I roll a ZB Monk.

the 2 most famous progamers in the FPS world (vo0 and fatal1ty) got famous though winnin 1v1 tourneys.(quake,unreal,painkiller etc)
nobody remembers the names of CS team memebers or even gives a rat ass.
the superstars of gaming have all proven their worth individually.
there is not even one team player than can be considered a progamer or has any superstar status in the gaming world.
all the top 50 most paid/respected progamers play individual games.

HB really isnt 1v1 since you bring 3 Heroes with you. And its not popular because idiots thought it would be a good idea to go in and roll for it.
Ive played a couple times and they start by "Hi roll" I say no they leave.
So whats the point of going into that. Of course the same thing would happen with real 1 on 1 too. Unless they took out rolling or something or penalize you for leaving.

Yes but those 1 on 1 tournies are very limited. Usually in small levels with only 3-4 weapons. The action is fast and your proficiency with specific weapons is shown.

1 on 1 in Guild Wars with 10 classes and hundreds of skills wouldnt work too well.

It would require a VERY LIMITED tournament setting, with only certain classes and skills allowed.

Not really. Some of the pugs out there are better than people you trust.
Point being? Just cause you roll a ZB monk doesnt mean 1v1 cant be fun. It would be fun for me to go and shut you down. Would be your own fault for bringing a Prot monk to a 1v1 battle.

Pretty sure this sums up most of the nonsense in this thread.

Should I filter through 50 people that suck before coming across this awesome pug, or should I rather whisper my friend who I know is good?

My point is, in 1v1 battle, you can be beaten through no fault of your own. No matter how well you play, if you come across a counter build, you lose. Might as well go and play rock-paper-scissors if you want a game of chance.

If you have really played GW, you would realised that GW is not made for 1v1.
People wanted 1v1. Anet answered and delivered. It's called Hero Battle. You think it's stupid? Well, most of us actually do so.

But 1v1 is even more stupid than ever. How are you going to even build a balanced system with only 1 skill bar? That's like making a competitive tournament and telling everyone that the winner will be decided by rock/paper/scissors. If you really want 1v1, go do some scrimmage, but suggesting 1v1 as competitive is rather ludicrous.

and guild wars is a game that's built from the ground up as a team oriented game. to change that, you need to scrap the whole game and start over.

anyways, on to my own point:

i had recently watched a good friend of mine play CS. he's a sponsored player who a year ago i managed to convince to give GW a try. he was initially estatic about it: it had the potential to be everything he wanted in a mmorpg. excellent storyline, exciting pvp. however, he eventually went back to CS. the reason? too much emphasis was placed on skill selection.

let's take a careful look at why CS is such a popular and successful game:
1. limited weaponry/equipment. there's only a handful of guns, with only a few that ever gets used. obviously, the guns are not balanced in any way (the AK47 and magnum, for example).
2. the game is entirely skill based.

combine the two, and you'll know why CS is so successful. while there are no balance to speak of, it doesn't matter because gameplay is dependent on player skill alone. by limiting the number of guns/equipment, CS created an environment where emphasis is placed squarely on player skill, not the guns used.

now let's look at GW. it has been said many times that the most exciting pvp was found during the prophecies days, where skill selection was more limited and only a few viable builds. that environment mirrors the CS environment, since both put emphasis on player skill and not skill selection. currently, with a gazillon more skills than before, the emphasis is placed on Build Wars (tm). there are now too many variables for a player skill based environment. it doesn't matter how well the skills are balanced, there remains the possibility that team A's set of skills counters team B's set of skills, and team A wins no matter what team B tries to do.

to fix the problem, i suggest the following:

1: limited skill selection in any pvp type that shows up on obs mode.
with the exception of hero battles (let's face it, it does not belong there), the obs mode pvp matchs are generally considered the highest forms of pvp in GW. by limited skill selection, it creates an environment similar to CS. the skills don't even have to be balanced, because in the limited skill environment, everyone will probably use it (similar to the AK47 in CS). this way, true player skill shines through.

2. take hero battles off of obs mode.
it does not belong there. in fact, it does not belong in GW. whoever thought this retarded arena up should be shot.

3. lengthen VoD to 25 minutes.
truly skilled teams find ways to bounce back into the game. 18 minute VoD is simply not long enough for that to happen.

4. anet should stop running all tournaments in house. instead, they should actively promote/support GW on the progaming circuit and let 3rd parties host their own tournaments.
let's face it, tournaments are the mainstay of competitive players. without tournament support, Starcraft would've been long dead, and CS would've never made a ripple. GW currently have no outside coverage whatsoever, and the only way to fix it is to allow GW to be played on 3rd party tournaments.

thats your choice. You are not everyone. There are alot of people that WOULD take a pug if they didnt know what rank they were. Just cause you wont doesnt mean others wouldnt.
Chance IS what would be fun about 1v1.
Who wants to play something that you win all the time?

If you dont like 1v1 then you wouldnt have to play in it now would you? Others however would actually find this fun. Would be an alternative to the Elitism in HA where everyone thinks they are better than you cause they are high ranked.

I quit Guild wars in May, and it was the series of bad updates that drove me from the game. I was looking forward to playing GW:EN, but after these updates I no longer trusted that the company was making a game that appealed to my tastes. It just seemed like the company was taking its current customers for granted while it focused on Guild wars 2. So, I didnt buy GW:EN and I'm happier for it.

I think that Guild wars was fundamentally flawed from the begginning.

The pvp and PvE games are very different and incompatible.

The PvE game is completely carebear, it has no world pvp, killstealing, lootstealing,and there's even henchman (and later heroes) to allow for gamplay without even encountering other players. Except for the fact that your character is gimped by the design of the game, there is no real reason to even play with other players, and even then there's henchmen.

The Pvp game is among the most hardcore pvp of any online game. You have to unlock all skills (a grind), you have to use / understand all the key skills (also a grind), you have to know skill animations (for interrupting), you have to have all eight players coordinate skill usage because the healing in this game overpowers DPS minus spikes or extended pressure, and on top of that you need excellent "twitch" reflexes (saving spikes, etc). And god forbid you try to pvp without ventrilo.

Then to "prove" that a player can do all of the above, the community demands rank titles that take thousands of hours to farm.

And, on top of this, new players have to pay $200 USD in order to play. Add another $150 for skill unlocks. That's just too hardcore.

Pvp in Guild wars is a niche game for a few hardcore gamers.

This was not obvious to me while I still played, but is ZOMG obvious now.

Compare all of the hardcore aspects of pvp in Guild wars to pvp in a pvp game that is actually popular, for example Halo 2, and you will start to see thousands of ways that guildwars pvp is just unattractive outside its niche.

Where is the 1v1 duel arena? Where is the "pick up and play" pvp that doesnt require either a set schedule or an hour to get everbody online/choose a team build/wait for a match? We all know that Random arenas fails, but that's the only alternative in the game.