I have found VIDEO evidence that shows Guild Wars the way it was meant to be played.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw
This video contains several topics worthy of discussion, but I want to focus on 1 specifically. The comments of the ArenaNet founders on this video...particularly Mike O'Brien. Pay close attention.
So...what the hell happened to Guild Wars?? Discuss.
Guild Wars was built from the ground up to be PvP (with video evidence)
DreamWind
LumpOfCole
It got bigger and more complex and much harder to balance with the current campaign and expansion model. Many lessons have been learned and shall be applied to Guild Wars 2 from the beginning. Obviously, the most difficult part is balancing PvE and PvP, and building content in newer products valuable to both camps, and balanced with each other. It's kind of a relief that the two will be more seperated (reportedly) in GW2.
Right now, it's not the most perfect product in the world, but incredibally enjoyable and I can't wait to see what Anet does with GW2.
Right now, it's not the most perfect product in the world, but incredibally enjoyable and I can't wait to see what Anet does with GW2.
Sergeant of Marines
Why can't we just let PvP die in peace, it has been ruined for some time now, that is why I really do not bother anymore...
Live and learn and on to GW2, hope it will have everything everyone asks for in it, otherwise, every thread on Guru, will just be repeated.
Live and learn and on to GW2, hope it will have everything everyone asks for in it, otherwise, every thread on Guru, will just be repeated.
wilebill
What happened was a strange contradiction in game design. First PvE and PvP were separate, which is fine. No problem with that decision.
But then PvE and PvP skills were linked together, which meant that as numbers of skills increased and PvE environments grew more popular it became harder to maintain PvP balance without losing PvE players who were responsible for a good part of game sales.
A famous game designer once said PvE and PvP mix like oil and water. Situation here. Hopefully, GW2 will have a solution to the problem that will please both the PvE and PvP factions.
But then PvE and PvP skills were linked together, which meant that as numbers of skills increased and PvE environments grew more popular it became harder to maintain PvP balance without losing PvE players who were responsible for a good part of game sales.
A famous game designer once said PvE and PvP mix like oil and water. Situation here. Hopefully, GW2 will have a solution to the problem that will please both the PvE and PvP factions.
Bryant Again
Man, were those good days...
makosi
Good watch. I never realised that those events were so popular with as many spectators and Mike O'brien and Jeff Strain were extremely enthusiastic and seem to be pleased with what they have achieved.
Off-topic: Why do all Americans have such good teeth? Are they fake or what or just really well maintained?!
Off-topic: Why do all Americans have such good teeth? Are they fake or what or just really well maintained?!
A11Eur0
Lookit that thar first comment. Sheer genius.
haggus71
Makosi: One word - braces. A staple of millions of middle school/high school kids. Plus we drink more milk. Got a shitload of cattle here.
Remember the good old days, guys? Back in the third grade?
-Eric Cartman
Remember the good old days, guys? Back in the third grade?
-Eric Cartman
Gigashadow
What happened was, they realised the vast majority of their customerbase were more interested in PvE, and were fairly casual players anyway. I can totally understand that, but it's a shame, because I loved GW's PvP. Still, I had my fun when the going was good, and I'll always have the fondest memories of the gale warrior + dom mesmer era.
Healers Wisper
people happened to guild wars. often times in industry, consumer demand dictates the direction a product will go. more people like the pve aspect of this game so their direction changed. Its not hard to see that. while in these forums the PvP population is very loud, it isn't even the majority of the players that post here. there have been polls to back this statement. this can also be seen by the relattively small number of guilds that largely dominate the PvP.
It is fairly easy for a new player to play in the PvE environment, but the current PvP game makes it difficult for even experienced PvE players to get involved more than AB or TA
Personally I am glad ANET changed its direction. I find PvP frustratring to say the least. I also find PvP to be relatively repetative and boring. I would have left the game long ago if the game was dominated by PvP.
gg ANET.
It is fairly easy for a new player to play in the PvE environment, but the current PvP game makes it difficult for even experienced PvE players to get involved more than AB or TA
Personally I am glad ANET changed its direction. I find PvP frustratring to say the least. I also find PvP to be relatively repetative and boring. I would have left the game long ago if the game was dominated by PvP.
gg ANET.
I MP I
Yaay. The days before the game started to suck ass. IMO. PvP was worth playing and watching back then.
EternalTempest
The Original GW was designed to do pve, then as an end game do pvp. There was zero batlazar faction originally and you had to do unlocks via pve for your pvp. That's why they had "short cuts" droks run with duplicate elite capping and max (less armor) npc item traders in both the desert and the s.shiverpeaks.
Batlazar faction came latter, the "removal" of the attribute refund system came latter.
The lead dev actually admitted pve was developed 1st in an interview. That being said, the pvp 1st vs pve 1st is irrelevant.
Gw was designed to do both they try to juggle both... and the result Nightfall and Eotn are very pve based with plans to offer pve and a pvp pve style as well as a separate structured and balanced pvp in GW2.
Batlazar faction came latter, the "removal" of the attribute refund system came latter.
The lead dev actually admitted pve was developed 1st in an interview. That being said, the pvp 1st vs pve 1st is irrelevant.
Gw was designed to do both they try to juggle both... and the result Nightfall and Eotn are very pve based with plans to offer pve and a pvp pve style as well as a separate structured and balanced pvp in GW2.
lyra_song
The PvE uses the PvP engine, albeit with modified tactics.
I forsee this thread as blaming PvE for the collapse of PvP.
So ill go sit and watch.
I forsee this thread as blaming PvE for the collapse of PvP.
So ill go sit and watch.
maraxusofk
I BLAME U SILLY PVE'ERS FOR THE COLLAPSE OF PVP 
honestly though, pvp died when ppl got bored of seeing the same builds every 2 runs. i farmed my first r9 during the era of iway and b spike, which was fun for the first 2 days. when i came back to farm r10 the game was slightly funner (beginning of 6v6 and reintroduction of 8v8). i am not suprised many people quit pvp cuz it got repetitive. most ppl who ha nowadays do it jsut to get emotes, as the ha items are now in eotn.
i hafta say though, i started as a hardcore pve'er and switched and basically joined pvp for 1 ½ years, now im back into pve going for r4 koabd. Hahah funny how obsessed I am with this game no?
honestly though, pvp died when ppl got bored of seeing the same builds every 2 runs. i farmed my first r9 during the era of iway and b spike, which was fun for the first 2 days. when i came back to farm r10 the game was slightly funner (beginning of 6v6 and reintroduction of 8v8). i am not suprised many people quit pvp cuz it got repetitive. most ppl who ha nowadays do it jsut to get emotes, as the ha items are now in eotn.
i hafta say though, i started as a hardcore pve'er and switched and basically joined pvp for 1 ½ years, now im back into pve going for r4 koabd. Hahah funny how obsessed I am with this game no?
RSGashapon
Um... tough crap?
Video games aren't sports.
Sorry, but I fail to see how competitions like that can be considered fun.
Video games aren't sports.
Sorry, but I fail to see how competitions like that can be considered fun.
Vinraith
Quote:
| The Original GW was designed to do pve, then as an end game do pvp. |
Vinraith
Quote:
| hope it will have everything everyone asks for in it |
Foe
but its like pve was better then too...now u grind titles?? prophesies pve was billion times better...and pvp could be fixed! they just wont do it! lol..i guess they dont wanna piss off the mm's. which is sad..cause it doesnt really matter what u run in pve...like really. Ive pve'd as much as nice guy but cmooooooooooon. fix it =)
fenix
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RSGashapon
Um... tough crap?
Video games aren't sports. Sorry, but I fail to see how competitions like that can be considered fun. |
As for video games as sports, have you heard of CPL before? Here's a link so you can educate yourself.
Yichi
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RSGashapon
Sorry, but I fail to see how competitions like that can be considered fun.
|
DreamWind
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by makosi
Good watch. I never realised that those events were so popular with as many spectators and Mike O'brien and Jeff Strain were extremely enthusiastic and seem to be pleased with what they have achieved.
|
Now whether or not you want to blame PvE for the decline is a step farther. I could make that argument. For now I'm just making the argument that PvP was their original direction for the game, but they are going a different direction nowadays.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EternalTempest
The lead dev actually admitted pve was developed 1st in an interview. That being said, the pvp 1st vs pve 1st is irrelevant.
|
EternalTempest
A statement from one of the high up people in anet during a tournament vs an interview from one of the high up dev's giving conflicting information. That video is 3 clips put together and designed as a pvp against pve perspective as well.
Your could be taking his words "built gw up for this, this is what it's about" out of context. It could be describing pvp or the fact of the fun and challenge (skill vs grind) or the fact they had very successful tournaments and how awesome it was. The fact is with that statement we both can "run with it".
Pvp 1st vs Pve 1st which developed 1st is irrelevant. No matter what they thougt while making the game, they decided to do both as a finished product.
Looking at my original guildwars per-order box...
Summary / parafrased from box
Skill vs Grind - battling monsters to fulfill a quest or working with guildmates to reach highest lvls of tournament play. Rewards skill and teamwork > hours played.
Having fun
gw focus on fun - fighting monsters, playing with or against other players, finding that next great item.
When GW launched it was made to be an experiment that allows pve and pvp.
After the 1st verions of the game.
Faction introduce less "serious" competition in the form of AB/AvA in what I feel to help "bridge" the gap between the pvp vs pve crowd.
Pan to nightfall.... they added hero battles.... which allowed for a psuod form of 1v1 comabt
Now to Eotn.... you have 10-12 new pvp skill per job ... that's it.
They have stated there thoughts on GW2 will be as follow
Pve with greatly expanded lvl system
Pve get some form of pvp that tell me it's going to be "less serious" then the next item
PvP "structured/balanced"
This prevents the player thinning across each new chapter - "ghost towns"
Keeps it so they can balance the serious pvp and the pve skills seperate from each other
Appeal to wider audience.
Gw wars is what is it, play the way you want to play and see if Gw2 appeals with you.
Your could be taking his words "built gw up for this, this is what it's about" out of context. It could be describing pvp or the fact of the fun and challenge (skill vs grind) or the fact they had very successful tournaments and how awesome it was. The fact is with that statement we both can "run with it".
Pvp 1st vs Pve 1st which developed 1st is irrelevant. No matter what they thougt while making the game, they decided to do both as a finished product.
Looking at my original guildwars per-order box...
Summary / parafrased from box
Skill vs Grind - battling monsters to fulfill a quest or working with guildmates to reach highest lvls of tournament play. Rewards skill and teamwork > hours played.
Having fun
gw focus on fun - fighting monsters, playing with or against other players, finding that next great item.
When GW launched it was made to be an experiment that allows pve and pvp.
After the 1st verions of the game.
Faction introduce less "serious" competition in the form of AB/AvA in what I feel to help "bridge" the gap between the pvp vs pve crowd.
Pan to nightfall.... they added hero battles.... which allowed for a psuod form of 1v1 comabt
Now to Eotn.... you have 10-12 new pvp skill per job ... that's it.
They have stated there thoughts on GW2 will be as follow
Pve with greatly expanded lvl system
Pve get some form of pvp that tell me it's going to be "less serious" then the next item
PvP "structured/balanced"
This prevents the player thinning across each new chapter - "ghost towns"
Keeps it so they can balance the serious pvp and the pve skills seperate from each other
Appeal to wider audience.
Gw wars is what is it, play the way you want to play and see if Gw2 appeals with you.
arcanemacabre
Which came first: the chicken or the egg?
Answer: Doesn't matter, they're both tasty.
Answer: Doesn't matter, they're both tasty.
Komes I
Allthough i am mainly PvE player i would rather like to see one more of those kind of competitions than get a free Req 9 Cristalline Sword. Or learn to spell.
Avarre
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by wilebill
What happened was a strange contradiction in game design. First PvE and PvP were separate, which is fine. No problem with that decision.
|
RSGashapon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by fenix
So says you. I think otherwise. Competing against other teams is MUCH more fun than grinding stupid AI.
As for video games as sports, have you heard of CPL before? Here's a link so you can educate yourself. |
Me + video games = part time entertainment
You + video games = full time employment
Yup, the CPL can really hold a candle to the MBA, the NFL, the NHL, PGA... I remember reading an article (not that long ago, but Google is letting me down) about how "professional" gaming will never become a national sport, or should even be considered a sport in the first place. You don't see it broadcast on television nearly as widespread as althetic sports, because pro-gaming is a "sport" that no one really notices.
Hell Raiser
Even if Guild Wars was originally based around PvP, ArenaNet realized that most of the player base play PvE. And since PvEers love new content, they are the majority of Anet's income. Besides that, they were trying to build a bridge between PvP and PvE, and there's no way that was going to work out. They should have completely separated them, skills and all, imo.
PS: The CPL... are you serious? A video game is not a sport. lmao.
PS: The CPL... are you serious? A video game is not a sport. lmao.
DreamWind
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Which came first: the chicken or the egg?
Answer: Doesn't matter, they're both tasty. |
Let's assume PvP is the chicken and PvE is the egg.
According to most given evidence, the chicken came first and the egg came along with it. Thus to get to the chicken you had to go through the egg. People wanting chicken still went through the egg to get to the glorious chicken though.
Now...most people decided they liked the egg instead, so God (or whoever created both the chicken and egg) decided to screw over the chicken and people who liked the chicken by giving most of its attention to the egg to a point where the chicken as it used to be known NO LONGER exists.
These clips are showing that the chicken came first (according to the creator) and the chicken is no longer what it used to be (it used to be great now its support is almost gone). Whether or not thats the eggs fault or the creators fault or both is up for discussion, but its almost impossible to argue that the chicken is still as great as it once was.
Uh...did that I say that right?
yesitsrob
Good times.
There's just far superior competitive games to Guild Wars that actually do reward skill.
There's just far superior competitive games to Guild Wars that actually do reward skill.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DreamWind
See I would agree with you and not even have posted this...except for one problem.
|
So it seems to me that the chicken is no longer in favor simply because there's not enough people eating chicken these days. People love to find the blame for these kinds of things, but truth is, it's likely no one thing, and it's likely not Anet's fault.
...and come on, professional video game players? Unless everyone had the exact same equipment (computer hardware and internet connection), there were strict guidelines and rules, and most importantly - the game was unchanging and without bugs from the start, then maybe. Until that day, there will always be HUGE barriers blocking any kind of professional play for any video game.
Ghost Recon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by RSGashapon
I already know about the CPL, and I still don't see the point of it.
Me + video games = part time entertainment You + video games = full time employment Yup, the CPL can really hold a candle to the MBA, the NFL, the NHL, PGA... I remember reading an article (not that long ago, but Google is letting me down) about how "professional" gaming will never become a national sport, or should even be considered a sport in the first place. You don't see it broadcast on television nearly as widespread as althetic sports, because pro-gaming is a "sport" that no one really notices. |
darkrunner25
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
I still have yet to see any consistent explanation from anyone about why they think PvP sucks now (compared to then).
|
The longer this game runs the less accessible PvP becomes to new players.
As it stands right now a new player who wants to pick up Guild Wars and play PvP has to spend $120 for the Prophecies/Factions/Nightfall PvP packs. Even then he will not have any runes/weapon mods/insignia's unlocked.
Then what does he do? Completes the training missions and the zaishen challenge and unlocks Random Arenas? Now he's in RA, he's got 10 different classes with 10 different secondaries to choose from. Thousands of different skills, weapons, armor, runes, insignia's to choose from.
So lets say he chooses a class and some skills and manages to win 5 matches in RA eventually (without getting disillusioned with the game due to the horrid state of RA). Now he's unlocked Team Arenas. Is anyone in TA going to let this guy into their team? Even if he manages to get into some pug group, the minute they ask him to Ctrl-click his skill bar he will be laughed out of the group and replaced.
So by some miracle he manages to win 5 consecutive in TA before he uninstalls. Now he has Heroes Ascent unlocked. There is absolutely ZERO chance this guy will get into ANY HA group, honestly. If he isn't completely ignored for having 0 fame he will again be kicked from any group that asks him to run some standard build that he will have no clue about.
So what are his options now? Join a pvp guild? Even the low level pvp guilds are asking for R6+ or Champion titles these days. So what guild can he join? A PvE guild, but are any PvE guild recruiting in The Great Temple of Balthazaar? No, so he /uninstalls and buys WoW.
For a brand new GW player with no friends in the game is there really any other way this scenario could play out? Lets face it, even the most hardcore of PvP players got their start in PvE. Playing the PvE campaign is the best and only way to learn to play your class, and in the beginning the only way to unlock the stuff you needed for PvP.
The only way to breathe new life into GW PvP in my opinion is for Anet to release a $40 PvP pack that is FULLY UNLOCKED. Every skill, weapon mod, insignia and inscription from every campaign. Even that probably isn't enough, somehow PvP needs to become more accessible, and I dont have that answer.
Sorry for the long read I got carried away.
-Phantom.
warren_kn
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ghost Recon
In South Korea, it is broadcast on TV and it is starting to become main stream in Europe and America. More and more events are happening with more players taking part than ever before, the price money has also increased a lot over the years. Welcome to the future.
|
Sparks Dawnbringer
As a die hard PvE who has taken a turn in PvP ther just was nothing to keep me going back. It was just boring. The arenas are mostly the same and there are only a few battle styles. Then there is no reward. Faction unlocks who needs unlocks. I am sure most everything is unlocked on my account. And if you do unlock something with faction you can only use it in PvP. I wish I could sell my Balthazar faction for an item like amber, or sell it to another player.
Almost every cool animation is a PvP one. No one ever got a gold border on their cape for PvE. Can't get into the cheap stores for PvE. Can't get a gold glowing wolf for getting the world capped. Nope PvP.
In PvE there is something new around every corner, in PvP just some crazed warrior who thinks he can whack his way through Shield of Judgement and Zealots Fire. I frankly think Anet wanted to make so much more out of PvP and tried to the point of nerfing so much PvE to please the PvPers that they almost lost the PvEs. Trying to save one they almost lost both and since PvE is paying the rent it is going to win. I think the idea was to turn on the PvE community to PvP and they took a look and said bring on the monsters and the loot. Give me a good old dungeon. And look what we got in GWEN. Thank you Anet.
Almost every cool animation is a PvP one. No one ever got a gold border on their cape for PvE. Can't get into the cheap stores for PvE. Can't get a gold glowing wolf for getting the world capped. Nope PvP.
In PvE there is something new around every corner, in PvP just some crazed warrior who thinks he can whack his way through Shield of Judgement and Zealots Fire. I frankly think Anet wanted to make so much more out of PvP and tried to the point of nerfing so much PvE to please the PvPers that they almost lost the PvEs. Trying to save one they almost lost both and since PvE is paying the rent it is going to win. I think the idea was to turn on the PvE community to PvP and they took a look and said bring on the monsters and the loot. Give me a good old dungeon. And look what we got in GWEN. Thank you Anet.
Longasc
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by darkrunner25
The #1 reason PvP is in decline/near death is very simple and has been mentioned before.
The longer this game runs the less accessible PvP becomes to new players. (...) Sorry for the long read I got carried away. -Phantom. |
But you are absolutely right.
Regarding the fact that GW might have been planned as a PvP game initially, it developed much more into a PvE MMO over time.
BTW: Viagra was originally invented to treat pulmonary arterial hypertension, not erectile dysfunctions. And see for what it is used nowadays.
GW is like Viagra. Disclaimer: I am a PvEer, and I did not say that PvE can be compared to an erectile dysfunction.
Yanman.be
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Which came first: the chicken or the egg?
Answer: Doesn't matter, they're both tasty. |
Did A.Net tried to make an egg or a chicken? Perhaps the egg hatched, or the chicken laid an egg?
arcanemacabre
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
Did A.Net tried to make an egg or a chicken? Perhaps the egg hatched, or the chicken laid an egg?
|
My point is it doesn't matter which happened because they support both.
DreamWind
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by darkrunner25
The longer this game runs the less accessible PvP becomes to new players.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
My point is it doesn't matter which happened because they support both.
|
This topic has been discussed for ages, but its very relevant because of Guild Wars 2. We haven't seen Anet as competent enough to make both sides happy at the same time in GW1, so why should we expect any more in GW2?
Sparks Dawnbringer
I've been pretty happy with the content of GWEN. And have had quite a good time playing it.
I must admit that in the old areas I often avoided the Elite areas because the people there were too rigid, bossy and nasty. I want to enjoy myself not listen to someone scream at a poor kid because he talked to the wrong person. I always wanted to go the the elite areas with one friend and heros.
You are correct about the weapon skins and armor. I think they forget just how demanding we are. They set the bar too high for themselves. They showed us what they could do. Now, I think they are all onto GW2 and GWEN is really not their focus. I actually think some of the best armor is in the first game with one or two good ones thrown in here and there in the following campaigns. I do love my shaded spectacles though. But all those male dervishes running around in dresses make me laugh to no end. And I guess those ugly looking lava weapons are the only ones we can put in the Hall of Monuments.
In fact I would believe that GWEN was always a part of the first campaign that never got fully developed.
I must admit that in the old areas I often avoided the Elite areas because the people there were too rigid, bossy and nasty. I want to enjoy myself not listen to someone scream at a poor kid because he talked to the wrong person. I always wanted to go the the elite areas with one friend and heros.
You are correct about the weapon skins and armor. I think they forget just how demanding we are. They set the bar too high for themselves. They showed us what they could do. Now, I think they are all onto GW2 and GWEN is really not their focus. I actually think some of the best armor is in the first game with one or two good ones thrown in here and there in the following campaigns. I do love my shaded spectacles though. But all those male dervishes running around in dresses make me laugh to no end. And I guess those ugly looking lava weapons are the only ones we can put in the Hall of Monuments.
In fact I would believe that GWEN was always a part of the first campaign that never got fully developed.
Ghost Recon
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by warren_kn
Um, whereabouts in Europe? I have yet to see televised video game tournaments. Mind you I DID see that a televised backgammon tournament was on TV the other day so it does prove that you can put any crap on and it will have an audience so video game tournaments can't be too far away. However, as someone already said, it will never be a sport, CPL or otherwise.
|
Also there is great coverage on the net for all the competitions around the world.