Superior Runes. When are they worth it?

You could run high health on everyone, not use the ridiculous idea of a single character as the 'tank', and just have everyone heavily armored from shouts, spirits, wards, enchants, and other passive defense.

Mind burn spike in HM Tahnnakai temple comes to mind.

The time to use superior runes is either when

A. You are certain that you will be able to beat the area with no deaths.
or
B. You significantly increase your damage or protection, enough to compensate for the loss in health.
C. Have the proper positioning to avoid enemies.

A. Is true for about 85% of PvE.
B. Is true for certain skills, for example:

Splinter weapon, if your build can't allocate 12 points into channeling (without buffs) getting a major or sup takes you from 4x44 damage to 5 x 47 damage, over a 25% increase.

Minion Master: Minor vs Sup gives around 40 health more per minion (I think this is right) and 1 more minion, just from a standpoint of taking damage intended for you, you gain 40x9 + 440 = 800 more health in between you and the enemy. The damage increase is probably pretty significant as well, but I cant present any numbers

Broad Head Arrow ranger: I use BHA to shutdown any caster boss. As an example, EotN dungeon bosses have half condition duration. I use a + dazed bowstring. Minor rune means 13 seconds dazed, while a sup rune gives 14 seconds dazed. Recharge is 15. So taking a sup rune lowers the window of vulnerability by 50%.

C. Is true for certain team builds the rely upon all aggro being on a tank, there us little reason not to wear a sup rune when playing a caster in the deep when 100% of enemies are on the tank for example.

In all cases where you wear a superior rune you should also have a switch helm that has no - health, it really sucks when just getting 15% dp means every stray shot wipes you. (If you give your heroes sups or majors, you can expert salvage them off while in a mission and add them back when they lose DP). DP is a slippery slope, especially in very hard areas. If you get a little, its very easy to get more and soon you bottom out at 60 dp and die from stubbing your toe.

One case I can say it doesn't help that much is pure weapon damage. If I am calculating things correctly, the average difference from a max axe 6-28 with no mods between 14 and 16 axe, including criticals is about 2 damage per hit. Unless you hit a new breakpoint for adrenaline or energy gain, or you have a build that really spams skills quickly (Dragon Slash warrior comes to mind) Its probably better to stick with a minor, especially if you plan on to be on the front line.

If you can't hit a significant breakpoint aren't in a special group where you are sure you will be able to avoid damage, don't use a sup or major, a 5% or so damage increase is nothing compared to the fact that you do 0% damage while dead.

That makes you loose time. You dedicate too much energy/time to defend everyone. You're not in PvP where people know how to switch targets. AI is dumb. You have to use it to your advantage, IMHO.
A corner-blocking tank (whoever he is, a 55Hp monk or a warrior) and sheer offense is what is the most time-efficient in PVE (from my experience). +75HP is not what will save you in say, Underworld.

i normally run minors in pvp cause the extra health really helps.

as far as pve goes, i dont think that it really matters if you go with superior, major, or minor. normal mode pve is too easy really to pose any major obstacles for half-competent players.

i run major runes in hardmode pve but i dont see superior runes making or breaking a hardmode run.

edit - i have superior vigors on all my toons. all my heroes have major runes on their main attributes and major vigors.

I'd go to say that, using superior runes in PvE is completely harmless, as I've done it on all my chars for the past 2 years. It only matters in PvP imo.

My monk normally has 455 HP or something like that, 485 with my +30 heal offhand, and 515 hp with a +30 +5 energy weapon in hand. That is plenty of hp imo, never had problems.

But if you wanted you could then use a Major rune, +30 hp weapon and offhand, then you have alot more health. But really if you imagine how low your health gets with all the DP in PvP, the extra health does help lots, but i usually rely on weapons to get that.

Spirit Bond.

From my experience you're wrong.
_

In areas where it actually slightly matters what you run the the difference between a minor and a superior is being killed in 1 hit, and being killed in 2 - with the latter you can prevent the death without having to pre prot absolutely everyone. You can prot spirit everyone, and often the mobs are that big. In one area where it really matters what you run, you can't prot spirit at all unless you want peoples skill bars disabled.

The time you save in killing some mobs due to your little extra damage is often lost in time you spend ressing people who get 1 hit killed by some pissed off thorn wolf or something.

I also don't find minors make me go slow in PvE. I still clear the deep and urgoz in just over 1 hour and Citadel in about 35 minutes.

Superior Runes aren't really worth it in my opinion. Yeah, okay, it's nice for Minions or like, Searing Flames (which is terribaed by the way), but in general, nah, a couple of small numbers here and there aren't worth 75HP and getting aggro more often.

Just run all minors, DPS the shit out of everything, and win @ teh gaemz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg <snip>

I read the OP a few times, and I'm pretty sure this isn't thread wasn't made for people to cry about farming builds. If you don't like 55 Monks, fine, go stand in some major farming hub and cry about it there. Less attempted derailing of threads kthxbai.

Ditto. Placing tank takes too much time and aggro failure is usally huge setback that costs even more.

Shouts on the other hand are instant, wards and chants take one seccond but they are still very fast and there is usually time for them inbetween recharges of damage skills. Hexes and conditions are usually part of your offensive anyway. Spirits are slow, ofc, but you dont use those a lot. Your added value is on fact that you can affort to stand and keep casting/attacting when under fire. In groups with tanks you are usually dead if you try the same with broken aggro or you kite, which both means less damage from you. Besides, tank means loss of one damage dealer.

You really have to experience good duality group to appreciate how brutal and fast it can be. Reward for playing at a bit higher skill lever.

But feel free to play in whatever your playstyle is. I dont mind.

Pretty much how I see it... by the time a tank can have got aggro, held it, etc... you could have cleared the group if you just charged in and took 0 damage while killing them anyway

People like you are the reason I don't do pickup groups anymore.

Oh thanks! Its nice to see that my efforts helps the community by making PuGs do better. But I'm sure your epic tanking skills helps the group so much too.

By the way do you go with [skill]mending[/skill] and [skill]vigorous spirit[/skill] too?




Most classes shouldn't run an sup rune. In pvp, I can see rangers using a major, but a minor is best for an class like the warrior. It isn't worth to loose -75 hp, because the difference of the 14-16 weapon mastery isn't that much.

I dont think theres any situation in pvp where you need a sup rune. Id only consider running a major on say a paragon just because of their huge armour etc. otherwise minors all the way.

I play an assassin (and I love the class). I'm a pretty big fan of superior runes. Even though there's a decent reduction in HP, it allows me to place points in other attributes that really make a difference.
My hp is only around 420-450hp (depending on morale/etc) but because of the runes I can managed a 9-10 hp regen almost all the time and a 75% chance to block most attacks(A/D with the spare points I saved put 8 into Earth). Even with lower HP I rarely die (only thing that really get's me is enchantment stripers, but that's when I "Tactfully retreat").
Last party I was in, the W/Mo had a 60% DP while I maintained a 10% morale boost (Hell's Precipice).
IMO Superior runes are only needed if you have a way of keeping yourself alive without destroying the monks mana. If not, stick to the HP.
More or less it's all preference, most sins prefer zealous/vampiric and 15^50.
I use +5en and elemental damage/enchant20% daggers.
So I deal a little less damage, but I outlast 90% of the people in the party.

More or less, it's how you enjoy the game.

But if he's dead, then surely he's not doing his job even more, and wastes a res. In the long run, kiting works better than just standing and healing all the damage you take.

Superior Rune + Sup Vigor + Major Rune + 2 Vitae Runes + Full Survivor = break even at 480, right where you started, have 16 in one stat and 14 in another. Works like a charm for my caster heroes. 16 Fire Magic + 14 Energy Storage makes for a very nice dedicated flamethrower-type. Same could be applied to Monks and Monk heroes, substituting the Major ES for a Major Divine Favor, but I don't see the point, really. Mesmers/Mesmer heroes centered around lengthy cast time spells obviously would benefit from a Major Fast Casting (14 FC makes Res Chant Faster than a Res Sig IIRC), although I'm not entirely sure if ANY of the Mesmer spell lines merit using a Sup Rune. Death Magic is definitely worth a Sup Rune (unless you are running one of those nasty SV hardmode wimpy minion builds, which I think are sheer genius).

+1 in any attribute makes very little difference in any profession, all skills scale relativly small eg. +1-7 damage per attrib point increase. However GW is a game where defeat and victory teders on a knife edge. Every little bit counts, thats why tiny little effects such as -1 damage reduction, +7 hit points (the difference between major and sup vigor) can help considerably, on paper they make very little difference but in practice these small little increases all combine together to make u Over-power or Out-think your foes. Gw is all about %'s eg. weapons do bonus 20% while customised, every little bit extra you can slap into your % helps. Times that by the number of your team and those tiny extra effects can turn your team from a failure to a party of champions, this is especially true when in long periods of combat.

Ofc ur build and play style are far larger factors to sucess but non the less small little buffs add considerably to a team. wanting hp over 7 extra damage is a simple choice for players, if you stay out of trouble u might as well do the extra damage if you take lots of damage then ur best with the extra hp. its no different a choice from deciding to have a +30hp weapon mod or a +something else weapon mod.

As a warrior i will allways have 16 in the weapon i'm using, unless tanking, my monk uses the same head tats to 55 as he does for regular monking so the sups stay on those as well. Normally i put minors on my armor as i'm lvling up and switch to major or sup when i need to for a build.

The only sup rune I have on any character besides sup vigors for the actual characters, is the sup death rune on my dedicated mm hero. I do have a headpiece for my ele with a sup fire, although I never use it.

Yeah, and people like you who bring Defy Pain and Endure Pain are why I don't do pickup groups either.

Whatever the hell 'nice rate of damage' means. GG.

qft. lol. If his hero monks are so great, why would he need those two useless pieces of shit on his bar? More damage skills, less tanking ones please.

hey, ive been packing endure pain on my bar in place of a self heal.

ive been running this build

standing slash
crippling slash
knee cutter
drunken master
"i am unstoppable"
endure pain
sight beyond sight
optional

15 +2 swordsmanship
13 +1 strength

its a pretty fun bar to play and endure pain helps out when my h/h fall behind me on account of constant drunken master.

i do agree that defy pain seems a bit unnecessary though.

Havent use sup rune(except vigor) for long long long time, all my chars now only use Major or minor, and minor is a must on monks imo(my monk has 650HP with shield and Axe/sword equip).
Talking about MM, i dont really put a sup rune neither, i dont want to risk just for 1 extra minion to lose my other 9 due to killed by monsters(MM usually run a staff with 20/20/20+1(20), armor +5+5+5 depends on minions and Bloodstained insignias).

I feel you may be missing the point slightly, I'll explain my reasoning.

If someone uses a superior rune, and is targetted by monsters they are forced to kite. If they kite, they are not casting / attacking and thus the rune isn't doing anything anyway. If they stand there, casting away and end up dying, they're stupid, because they should be kiting.

If someone uses a minor rune they are less likely to be targetted and will need to kite less. Ok, so their damage is reduced by a fraction, but they are dealing more damage overall, since the superior rune user is having to waste 3-5 seconds kiting away from an angry enemy warrior.

So yes, you can kite, of course you can kite, but whether you're kiting or whether you're dead, you're not casting spells / attacking, thus you're not adding anything to the team.

I use sups (weapons) on physicals in PvE, minors in PvP. For casters I can't justify the -75 health on any occasion, so my monk and mez sit pretty at 610 HP.

The hero monks are for my softer characters like my elementalist.

Generally for my warrior I just take hench healers since I tank all the damage, and focus my heroes on other things.

Think before you speak.

Anyways, my warrior does fantastically with a rune of Superior strength, and I don't need you telling me how to play the game, build nazi.

About the only time I don't use superiors is in HoM DoA. Any other place in the game doesn't deal enough damage really for that extra health to really "save" you.

I use superior runes my ss necro. He uses a superior curses rune, with a major vigor and a staff with +30hp. The health loss isn't that bad at all.

I never use superior runes on my warrior. They should have almost max health all the time for pve. I use a major axe rune and a superior vigor.

I think people expect necros and monks(most people expect max heals) to have superior runes mostly but I think all the other classes can do just fine without them.

I'm a build nazi who actually plays a decent bar, you're an idiot who sacs 75 hp for two useless skills to buff his hp up. Hmmm, which would I rather be...

As far as your warrior doing fine in PvE... It's PvE, anything works. It doesn't mean it's good though.

*nods*

The extra time on hexes is great, I do the same thing on my mesmer. Also, for farming there are some good exceptions that you didn't mention, like the fact that you need a sup rune to keep Stoneflesh Aura up permanently, for example, unless you have an enchant mod (Totem Axe or whatever) and things like that. I'd say it is worth it for most classes to use the sup rune, as with clever kiting and skill usage, to say nothing of gear and runes, you can make up for the hp loss. I use superiors on my ele, mes, rit, and nec, my warrior, paragon and ranger (going for LS) are all hp hogs :-).

IRT Chicken Ftw:

Sure. You play your way, I'll play mine. Who will have more success? I don't know, because I haven't asked for your regular build. Neither am I going to. I'd rather save myself some inner pain and not know.

Running 16 strength for defy + endure is 19 lower health than running 14 strength and not taking the -75hp from the rune. 75 lower health while not in either, 19 lower health while in both, for an extra duration of 2s on either.

gg

The higher strength also benefits my other skills.

I have tested it and it works better with superior strength.

gg

I understand many builds do not use superior runes. I understand that and I respect that people can play how they want to. I am not asking you to use superior runes, I am saying that with some builds they ARE worth it, which was the original question.

In PvE most of the time I use a superior rune on my monk and its fine, but it really does depend a bit on the area and what I am doing and who I am with. In HM I'm almost always using minor runes instead. Following that logic, I'd say there really is no need for superior runes generally, at least on a monk in PvE, as you're usually better off with the added hit points and you dont take too large a hit to efficiency.

Do math.

DP and ED bonus per attribute point: 14.

Gain of health from theese two skills when using sup rune over minor: 56
Loss of health from using sup rune: -75
Net ballance: -19 hp.

Gain of health from theese two skills when using major rune over minor: 28
Loss of health from using sup rune: -35
Net ballance: -7 hp.

Gain of health from theese two skills when using minor: 0
Loss of health from using sup rune: 0
Net ballance: 0 hp.

Gain of health from theese two skills when using vitae over minor: -28
gain of health from using sup rune: 10
Net ballance: -18 hp.


Result? Sup Strength is liability, even with your build.

Minor rune > Major Rune > Vitae > Superior rune (in your case, anyways).

For almost all characters, I use minors. 14 is the breakpoint for most interesting abilities anyway, and 16 weapon mastery would be only a very minor benefit.

However, for necros and fire eles I use a superior. Minions need to be as high a level as possible (unless a minion bomber, but I use a Rt/N for my minion bomber anyway). For fire eles, skills such as Mind Blast or Glowing Gaze provide a significantly better net energy return at 16 than 14.

Other than that, minors all the way.

mmmm....

minors on everything.

Only exceptions to this are =

My heroes and chars all have sup vigor.
MoW is my dedicated MM and thus has a sup death. Me being his monk though...especially in HM, he's always got infuse condition, dark bond, and me pre-protting him to make sure he doesn't get overwhelmed. (he's not too bright in regards to mob control)

and Zahr Dalsk....you're running Defy and Endure....why? Your elite is nondamage...you're a warrior....why?

I think every hero I have runs at roughly 570 hp+...myself at 625. I still run infuse in PvE, especially in HM...if mob control is lost, keeping MoW alive with infuse has saved me from a mission wipe several times in torment missions.

From what I can tell, the amount of insulting that is showing up on this thread indicates just how murky the issue really is.

It is totally true that you don't need any runes at all to just do the basic part of Guild Wars (win the missions and/or do the primary quest chains in Normal Mode). You just need a good build and have modestly decent gear. By "modestly decent", I mean, "max armor and max damage weapons". Collector gear will accomplish both of these things in a pinch. That doesn't mean that you're not at a slight disadvantage versus a player that has insignias and such, but if you're a skilled player, then you can probably overcome it anyway.

For the most part, it comes down to personal preference. Superior runes do give you extra power, but you're betting on the quality of your healing team to keep you out of spike damage trouble. I can tell you right now that the henchman Lina in Eye of the North does a really lousy job at covering you for spike damage.

For me, I use minors exclusively because I assist in healing and I also don't trust any NPC to use Protective Spirit properly. Maybe it's a bit of arrogance, but I think that I'm the smartest player when I run with all heroes/henchman. If I go down, then NPCs just resort to "default A.I." and that's really terrible.

There is one time where you should consider using a superior rune (other than Superior Vigor, but that's a big "well, duh"), and that's if you're running a minion master. I tend to go with a "minion bomb factory" build on my heroes, meaning that I intentionally use builds that rely on huge numbers of minions, then use Death Nova and purposely detonate them in the enemy's face. Higher Death Magic is not a linear power increase for me. It affects how many minions I can run as well as their level (i.e., damage and health).

However, I will say this. Recently I have noticed that something has happened with my henchmen and hero A.I. and they act like they have brain damage. Stupid cohorts is one thing, but the enemy A.I. seems to not have gotten any dumber, and they love hunting down Livia, leaving me with the unfunny situation of watching her die, and I'm staring at masterless minions that have Death Nova on them. It is making me mad enough that I want to pull off that Superior Death Magic and give up the extra damage just so she doesn't hit the floor all the time.

I consider 19 less health an acceptable trade when it boosts my other strength-using skills.

My warrior isn't my main character anyways, though, so I don't know why I even care.