A discussion on 7 heroes

Because you can't do that with people? The difference is they charge you.

Or because a bad player can't finish a hard area just by leeching or simply because the other players carry his death weight?

And what does the work of those 7 people differs from my point of view?

Actually I do even less work. I don't flag them, I don't micro PS.

So basically you are saying you need to waste time.

If you waste time forming a party it is ok.

Of course perma+pve skills just can't compare to the speed of heroes - heroes are a lot slower.

Doing DoA heroway nm takes 3.5-4.5 hours for a full run without consumables opposed to under 1 hour SF+Cyway or FoCway now in HM.

7 heroes would mean the guild wars player base being happy and if that would ever happen all the Anet employees would commit suicide!

Well AI is better than humans at interrupting (although might not interrupt the right stuff) - no lag, no reflexes, knows what every enemy is casting.

Ai is better than humans at microing death nova on minions.

AI is better than humans at repetitive tasks like orders, since the players probably will fall asleep or make casting mistakes due to boredom.

Humans can be better at melee, but a large portion of players suck at playing melee, especially because they are afraid to die and so invest loads on defense and gimp their damage/utility like knocks. A good melee player will make a huge difference in any party.

Humans can be better at energy management, but most think that energy management is using radiants and attunements.

Humans can make better use of indirect energy management, like not removing blindness from a caster or parasitic bond from that warrior.

Humans can be better at protting due to better understanding of what is happening - except most don't or use pure healing builds since red bar down - cast skill is easier to understand.

Heroes focus on the same target - sometimes that is good, sometimes is bad. Human players can take advantage of the ability to focus or attack multiple targets. Of course they need to understand the game.

Basically, humans can be better than heroes if they can make decisions and choices. To do that they need to understand the game. The game, while not rocket science, isn't as simple as most games out there either.

A player that knows the game, can and will give their heroes builds that reflect that and his game style.

A player that knows the game that joins a pug needs to fight the egos of people that don't understand the game, and even if those players will listen to him, chances are they won't be able to use their new build very well.

In other words, most players are dumber than Heroes and bad at Guild Wars.

Thanks for taking my post out of context again. Ill make it simple this time...This is what I support: soloers get 7 heroes, puggers gets their PvE skills + SF left alone. Soloers gets perfect coordination and obedient AI as a benefit, puggers keep their faster kill time with a good group but still group wipes for a crappy group. No hypocritical nerf everything pug use to make it even harder but buff heroes so everyone play with AI BS.

Arguing this topic has become so pointless now. Anet somehow got lucky with creating a great gaming experience with GW, yet they have completely messed up with keeping their players satisfied.

This is one major drawback to not having fees. They already have your money, and do not care about what the customer wants, instead they keep on creating a mish mash of random and totally uncalled for updates, 75% of which are beyond a complete joke, 15% of which are just plain balances, and occasionally 10% of are good.

More often then not, they keep on failing GW with these updates.

A couple of years ago, the majority of the GW community asked for 7 heroes. The reasons for this were completely misunderstood by Anet, and by the pug community on the whole.

Lets make one thing absolutely clear:

NO ONE, NOT ONE PERSON WANTS 7 HEROES TO MAKE THE GAME EASIER.

If you dont agree with wanting 7 heroes, then read that out aloud to yourself as many times as it takes to understand it.

People who enjoy the element of party customisation, controll, and specification of individual player skills and strategies want 7 heroes. This is quite a lot of players because being able to choose your own strategy and gaming method is a very common and enjoyable element of gameplay.

Now, when this topic was initially created, both Anet and the idiot pug community misread it as:

WE WANT THE GAME TO BE MADE EASIER WITH AN INSTANT KILL MODE.

This stupid misinterpretation is what has ultimately led to GW downfall. Anet thought we wanted an easier game, so they delivered. When the PVE community asked for 7 heroes, instead Anet gave us powerful god mode PVE only skills and consumables. These changes now made HM a walk in the park for even the least skillful players in the game, and was the most ridiculous change to the terrible GW power creep.

Anet instead should have simply allowed 7 heroes, never introduced PVE only skills and consumables, and increased party rewards when playing in full human groups (if in a full human team, 2x gold coins, and gold and green weapon drop rates, or halve the drop rate if playing solo or with AI).

This would have motivated players who enjoy grouping to party together, and the person who enjoys solo play could still do so but with fewer rewards.

This would have been the ideal first case solution as opposed to all the game ruining PVE only stuff we got instead.

Anet simply failed at understanding PVE or the communities desires. Instead they slowly began allowing the game to deteriorate with stupid gameplay decisions, and a refusal to provide what the community actually wanted to enjoy the game even more.

How the hell does having 7 heroes make things more overpowered than +100 armor and skills like PI? I don't understand that argument. In fact, to be blunt, I find it incredibly retarded that people say it makes the game too easy.

FORCING PEOPLE TO PLAY WITH OTHER PLAYERS DOES NOT MAKE THE GAME "HARDER" OR MORE "CHALLENGING". IT ONLY LIMITS WHAT YOU CAN DO AND FORCES THE PLAYERS TO PLAY WITH PEOPLE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY WITH USING HEROES

Get it through your damn heads. Heroes don't have any better advantages than players.

Oh wait "NOOOOO HEROES ARE BETTER INTERRUPTERS"
Guild wars is about spkill. With the AI interrupt delay nerf that happened awhile back, humans are superior. But wait "NOOOO BECAUSE HEROES HAVE GODLY AI AND CAN PAY ATTENTION TO THE WHOLE BATTER"
This game is about skill. Learn to know what it casting a spell even without targeting. You complain the game is too easy. Then why not play the role of an interrupter and learn to recognize the battle animations of 6 enemy casters at once?

"NOOOOO HEROES ARE BETTER BOMBERS"
This part is also about skill. A good player can easily see which minions are dying to cast Death Nova on. And hero MMs don't use the human MM skills properly like Order of Undeath for example.

"HEROES ARE BETTER HEALERS AND KILLED MONKING!!!1!1!!!!11!11111!!!ELEVEN!!!"
N/rt healers are inferior. The reason they're even used is for the e-management because AI is so bad they spam heals to the point of no energy. I'd take a human ritualist any day who KNOW how to handle energy and heals. Go go Signet of Spirits!

My point? Humans are superior. Problem? Most are just stubborn dumbass n00bs. And most people prefer guild wars as a 1 player rpg with multiplayer support.

/Kain's official label of a flame post

Since your post was right after mine, I just want to clarfity that I NEVER SAID I DON'T SUPPORT 7 HEROES!

The only reason I brought the whole SF/PvE skill debate into this thread is because those are the only incentives left to pugging. Any one who had tried to do those eotn dungeon Z quest know just how difficult it is for pugs even with all those supposedly "god mode" skills. Its so bad that I see quite a few people every time a dungeon Z quest comes along spamming for 20 min straight for a 600 run for 15k+. Yeah even with perma and CoP some people would still rather pay 15k for a run, which say a thing or two about how much those "insta-win" skill helped...not much IMO, the end game speed clears are exceptions and does not accurately represent the rest of the game.

Now if you nerf those skills and add in 7 heroes at the same time, the effect would be obvious. People would use heroes for literally everything. The problem is that a lot of areas in the game after factions has these artificial "stat pumping" difficulty increases that make it extremely difficult for average players without the use of some gimmick builds. Now the ideal solution would be to have a complete redesign areas to be more "skill based", add in gold incentives for grouping like you suggested, and then removed all gimmicks and consumables from the game.

But its pretty obvious ANET doesn't have the time nor the resource to literally redesign the game. Which is why I prefer the the option of pugs with "easy mode" skills + 7 heroes. At least this way the majority of players can actually get through the game, and give the most choices instead of being stuck with using AI. End game players would probably be pissed because of farming abuses but the areas can always be adjusted instead.

Pugs are random and being random, they can range from the very good to the very bad. Furthermore Pugs are not the only example of a human team, you can also form a team with guildies and/or friends. If you have the bad luck to meet bad pugs, that does not imply that the "god mode" skills are not good enough, that just means the players are bad. My guildies use those "god mode" skills very well in any of the eotn dungeon z quests by the way.

While some people want to nerf things to make it harder, I would like stuff like Shadow Form and Obsidian flesh went, so Anet couldn't hide behind it to say that stuff like "DoA HM is possible to do".

Hard Mode is a stupid way to increase difficulty.

PvE only skills, consumables, old ursan, Shadow form and Obsidian flesh, are stupid ways to fix it.

Bad design and more bad design to solve the initial bad design. I want both bad designs to go. I know some, that like to look lewt, just want the bad design fix to go.

Again, if the choice was "you can either have 7 heroes or have shadow form nerfed" I would vote get the 7 heroes without thinking twice.

GW is a game. Most people play games for fun. For some fun is competition or mastering the game. For other is just messing about.

While for a person that is of average intelligence and it is motivated, mastering GW isn't very taxing, most people just can't be bothered when what they want is killing some ugly monsters to relax, and GW is more complex than many other games.

Just for starters, it gives u a plethora of thousand of skills, from which u can only choose 8, and most of them are bad or inferior.

Than you need to do a team with 64 of those skills that have synergy and complement themselves, etc.

i used to want 7 heros, but i have found a build that allows heros and hench to let me vanqish many parts of cantha... its called Talon, Herta, Eve and Sister Tai or variations on the same profession...

Me (Smite monk), Dunky (smite monk), SS necro, and Discord (with minions) necro. easy.

Now here's the reason that build you mentioned doesn't work:

*drum twirl*

Herta isn't a Henchman in Factions XD.

I've also conquered every vq in tyria with H/H, but I'd still like the 7 heroes. I actually don't think it will be much easier either, since I find most of the current henchies to be efficient enough for the tasks, not to mention places like Raisu Palace where the Celestial Skills almost are a must.

Solution For the Balance issue

let People use 7 heroes but as soon as they add more than three heroes they have to make two concessions

- they can't use PvE only skills

- both the human player and all 7 heroes use the PvP version of skills .

Got give an advantage to human players - after all they are a handicap, right?

Are people afraid that 7 heroes in the hand of a good player will make solo farming and speed clears completely outdated?

My view on this is the following;


Just find some more friends. Join a NOT shitty guild, stop being a loner, and find some friends. You don't need 7 heroes to play a TEAM game. Play with people, like ANet intended. If you want to play by yourself, go play WoW.

no i feel Human teams are better but Giving the QQers what they one so they will STFU has advantages making them use PvP version of the skills prevents the Use if Gimmicks and One man + hero VSF farms and other lame things that go on in PvE that could be made more lame with all hero teams

and yes there are some things heroes do better like Interrupt (No Ping isues for a hero)


oh and lastly don't put words in my mouth

At this moment you can already go for a 1-2 human(s) + 6 heroes team, but suddenly one more hero (like in 7 heroes) would be imbalanced and all kind of limitations are needed. I wouldn't mind it, but I don't see the logic.

@ Fenix: it just doesn't work that way and the reasons why are already covered multiple times in this topic. That's all I wanne say regarding your post.

That is only ONE thing that heroes do better since they have no ping issues. That is over shadowed by at least 9 or more other things that humans do better:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...postcount=2223

Who needs interrupts when you just nuke them dead with 24 overpowered PvE skills per team? And by a human team, I mean a good human team (e.g. my guildies). Pugs are random, so their results vary from very good to very bad, not a fault of the game mechanics.

Or you can buy a second account and use 6 hereos.

But if we can already do that, why not just allow 7 on the same account?

PVP in GW is a team game. PVE is a not, I.E player vs environment, not useless pug group vs environment.

And Anet never intended for anyone to have to play with others, the games box states you can play alone. No one needs to be playing wow instead, you can play GW solo, but the solo experience can be much improved with being able to customise your whole party however you desire.

More accounts more money for ANET so this is not a good argument for them to implement those 7 hero parties.

The game is dead Anet, give us something we actually want for a change.

Don't play it since it's dead.

Would be a dream come true, seriously.

Whether it's 3 heroes, 7 heroes or just 7 stupid henchmen people are going to group or they're not. Heroes have not done anything to change this and punishing them because you can't make friends in the game seems kind of silly and just a little bit pathetic.

Considering there are no un-vanquished areas or un-beat HM missions in the game, it would seem 3 heros is a limit that needs not be increased.

Increase to 7 Heros and next item on the list is to give Hero's PvE skills (since Heros are like players they should have access to all skills too, right?).

What is the goal? To have everything handed to the player on a silver platter?

You make a good point. 3 heroes with no PvE skills is a limitation.

That said, if things are still possible, why play within such limitations?
Key word: LIMITATIONS
It's not like PvE is handed to me on a silver platter either when I play with a team full of people spamming overpowered PvE aoe skills, right?
Besides Ursan, they were not so much of a god mode as you think they are, and this is blown out of proportion.

why not make a new mode 'butter mode' cmon people the games meant to be a challenge not a walk in the park without breaking a sweat...people want things fast and easy..well it aint like that.

"Challenge" via such a limitation isn't what I'd consider a challenge, though.

As is in GW, playing with heroes should be challenging in itself. In other games when you're put together with an AI teammate things are usually a bit rougher if you had instead taken a human teammate. But there are quite a many factors that change this in GW, largely in terms of Necro heroes and in general the game being largely imbalanced.

But the thing with 4 more heroes is that it's less of a need and much more a want. As is you can vanquish any area in the game, some more annoying than others. The only exceptions are the elite areas, and if ANet would intend you to solo those they would just make it so you can bring henchmen.

If Guild Wars was more balanced, I'd love to have 7 heroes. It would be intensely rewarding doing so much micro for so much gain. In GW's current state I'm not really concerned about getting them, but it would be pretty interesting to see.

Why can't these crappy 7 hero threads just die... Anet says NO.

They implemented class-wide HoM
Maybe once we reach over 1000 votes they will consider it.

WE'RE ALMOST THERE!

I think it's pretty telling that there is over 80% in favor of heroes. With the fact that I can only play at very sporadic hours and not constantly without having to afk now and then for variable times, I'd like to be able to experience some of the areas like FoW without using some farm specific build. I can't always rely on managing to hook up with my RL bud who can deal with the random afk's I must take (health issues).

EDIT: in case that's not clear I'm in favor of 7 heroes.

One of in my opinion worst things ever happend to this game were the heroes, it became so damn hard to find partys, of course, you can do everything with your heroes but thers no need to play an MMORPG if you cant play with other ppl.

Well, lucky thing we got the Z-Quests, the one and only reason I do them is because ppl make real partys, talking bout PvE now.

I don't know if this has already been said. But PvE is no longer about being able to do something, it's about how quickly you can do something.

The standard 'oldskool' players and nerf happy people definitely don't want it as they still want their 'good old' PUGing days back. However it would probably be THE best decision anet could make.

By having control over everyone in your party you could explore so many different builds rather than sticking to things like the gimmicky discordway,as compression wouldn't be so much of an issues.

/signed for great justice,only good can come from it

Only 24 more votes, guys!
Pray they implement it, just like class-wide HoM.

Many are already using 4 henches, just give them more control, by making them heroes instead.

Firstly WOW PvE is probably more of a team game than guild wars is because you actually need other people to complete dungeons and hard quests as there is no option to add any NPCs. Whereas on guild wars you clearly don't need other players to complete any of the hard mode missions or dungeons and the only thing you actually do need other players for is the elite areas which are mostly used for farming. Therefore fenix your view is rather uninformed.

Back to the topic at hand. In my opinion 7 heroes would be an improvement on a some what lacking system of H/H. If ANet didn't want to encourage solo play and wanted to encourage team play then they shouldn't of included any form of heroes to begin with. Instead they introduced 3 heroes which most people can plainly see has got rid of the majority of pugging for missions and quests as there just isn't a need to join a PUG which more often than not will be fairly bad. Then in an attempt to correct their mistake they made PvE skills which in all fairness aren't that great (apart from the Ursan skill which they soon nerfed), and which have not actually made us all magically want to group up again to use them.

Overall I think they should just go the whole hog and allow us to use 7 heroes. It's not going to make things stupidly easy as even organized player teams can fail, it will however open up areas to players who previously couldn't find a team for them e.g. UW and FoW. Most importantly I think it would allow people a better and a more varied experience while playing.

115 pages... so apologies if I have re-iterated points already made

But..

I can understand why people would like 7 heroes within their solo makeup. Putting Prophecies and Factions aside for now (since the hench builds are pants), Nightfall and GW:EN hench have half decent builds. For Normal and Hard Mode, you can do the majority, if not all, of NF and GW:EN with one human, 3 heroes and 4 hench. It just takes a little bit of a thing called patience and skill. I.e. using flags and microing the hero skills a bit from time to time.

Prophecies and Factions is a different matter and this is where yes, 7 heroes (or even just ONE more upped to four) would be very beneficial - certainly allowing the casual GuildWarian to do tasks within these 2 campaigns.

Also, what should be remembered, is the interface - maps (both radar and mini) as well as the hero bars would have to be tweaked (or a new layout presented). Think of trying to manage SEVEN heroes on a screen 800x600. Even 1024/1280 people would be struggling with this amount of clutter on the screen.

This will also take alot of work to develop and produce too - what would people rather have - 7 heroes or something new to whet the whittle? I would prefer something new, would make me come back for a bit to a stagnant game (others might take a look too).

Finally, this is just me but, presenting 7 heroes to the user basically will allow the player to throw their team in, kick back and let the AI do everything. Those with access to programmable keyboards/macro utilities, having 7 heroes will be something to salivate over - flag, G1,G2,G3,G4 - go get a drink, come back and pick up the loot.

And I know sending in the AI team can be done now but with 4HH/3H, it's a lot less predictable how it will turn out. And to me, thats kinda cheating. GuildWars becomes less of a MMO than it is now and becomes a point-and-click style affair of a management game. Heroes killed GW really, another 4 will just finish it off properly imho.

So I can understand why ANet say maximum of 3 heroes. Its an attempt at balancing a solo party. Yes... balance and GW in the same statement There will be weaknesses in a team, be it H/HH or Guild/Alliance parties (unless the G/AP is, ah, made up of seasoned players hehe), so why should a player have access to 7 heroes than can VQ an area and thus not have to think too much in that area.

Summary: Bad idea but I.don't.mind - each to their own.

It would completely kill person to person interaction.
Which, last I checked, was a goal of most MMO's.
If you don't like henchie AI or PuGing, then the best thing you can do is find a good guild. :]

Guild Wars is not an MMO, nor' was it designed to be. People who classify it as one have no idea what they're talking about.
And isn't person to person interaction already dead? When was the last time we saw people group for non-Vanquishing and non-Elite Areas or dungeons? Most guilds these days just don't care to group for things other than that.

The only down-side to 7 heroes is interface. But that would be no problem if they simply make the flag buttons circle the compass and let us re-size hero skill windows.

some people group up for zquests though due to player stupidity I rarely do that either, along with my random play times/afk's.

Just recently I lost out on the bonus to two missions in nightfall due to other player stupidity. Oh and the waiting around...my GOD! First one person goes afk, so I afk at same time, I get back and they're still afk, then another person goes afk, and then 2 people quit, then we get 2 more and another person goes afk...you too can sit around for 30 min trying to get a group together for a mission. First time I'd pugged in a very long time and probably the last for a very long time.

Fact is other players don't listen. They do stupid stuff, they bring bad bars, they rage quit, they over aggro, some cuss a lot, and other things that make grouping with them unpleasant. I don't have to wait on heroes/henchmen. H/H don't quit if i have to afk. H/H don't cuss and whine.

7 heroes would only make the gaming experience for myself and others better.